How words constrict us...
coelho your are absolutely right i was going to write the same thing about the tribesmen seeing a plane. I would honestly do anything to see something that my brain cannot perceve. Just thinking about the thought of seeing something that my brain cannot perceve blows my mind when im baked because i kno that nothing i think of as unable to perceve is really unable to perceve because i thought of it. It is the most fucked up thing i could ever think about and it gives me goosebumps thinking about it. But i am thinking to myself about what coelho said about the tribesmen seeing the plane. Is it possible that if you cannot perceve something can you acually see it? We can never experience what those tribesmen experienced when they first seen a plane because today we share worldwide connections with the entire earth where all technology is shared openly between cultures. That is a different story if we are visited by other lifeforms. Who know what they have invented and the culture they have. Who knows? im baked so ... hope you understand lol
How words constrict us...
First of all, nice post.
What about the differences between written and oral communication? I think the biggest gap of understanding comes between what someone says and what someone hears - there are SO many factors that contribute to meaning. Its much easier to write down a very complex idea than it is to say. But like Coelho said in his first post, understanding is really based on personal experiences and perceptions. No matter how well the concept of planes is described, a tribesman will continue to understand them in the terms that he already knows. He wont truly understand until he experiences it for himself.
(the "scheme", or "map" of the outside world that exists into our mind)Wouldnt mapping also exist in varying degrees in the mind of any organism? Making sense out of the world by building mental maps and schemes and gaining a higher order of perception is probably an evolutionary process.
:stoned:
How words constrict us...
Alas! If only more people would take the time to look beyond that lowest level of perception that Coelho mentioned, to study their surroundings beyond what it takes to name and categorize what they see. There is so much more! All the energy around us, though we try to smooth away the inconsistencies with our best attempt at order and uniformity, is changing. Each 'object' that we look at, label, and just as quickly disregard is a wonderously unique structure that will never be recreated in exactly the same way. Each cloud in the sky and rock on the ground is part of a web of ever-transforming complexity that we will never fully percieve or appreciate.
Chaos can be frightening. In a world that never stops changing, we can never feel totally safe. But where we sacrifice our safety, we gain something much, much more wonderful -- the incredible beauty of endless possibilities. There is eternity in the ever-changing, there is life in decay, and there is creation in destruction. We just have to take the time to look beyond these symbols that we've created, to acknowledge and appreciate (as well as we're able to) all the amazing things of which we percieve only a tiny fraction.
How words constrict us...
You're right. Words are just symbols. We make an association between those symbols, which are a stimulus, to ideas and objects, abstract and concrete. We hear or read a word or a part of speech and we make the connection between the stimulus and the thought it conjures. Everyone has different connotations for language.
But even so, I believe all knowledge stems from language.
How words constrict us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by afghooey
Alas! If only more people would take the time to look beyond that lowest level of perception that Coelho mentioned, to study their surroundings beyond what it takes to name and categorize what they see. There is so much more! All the energy around us, though we try to smooth away the inconsistencies with our best attempt at order and uniformity, is changing. Each 'object' that we look at, label, and just as quickly disregard is a wonderously unique structure that will never be recreated in exactly the same way. Each cloud in the sky and rock on the ground is part of a web of ever-transforming complexity that we will never fully percieve or appreciate.
Chaos can be frightening. In a world that never stops changing, we can never feel totally safe. But where we sacrifice our safety, we gain something much, much more wonderful -- the incredible beauty of endless possibilities. There is eternity in the ever-changing, there is life in decay, and there is creation in destruction. We just have to take the time to look beyond these symbols that we've created, to acknowledge and appreciate (as well as we're able to) all the amazing things of which we percieve only a tiny fraction.
I think that all sounds fairly good. At the very least, its very emotive... But can you try using fewer words?
How words constrict us...
Ah, are you just poking fun at me now? ;)
Yeah, sometimes my emotions do tend to get the better of me when I'm writing these posts, and I get carried away. (Didn't mean to be overly dramatic). And I'd sum it up in fewer words, but that would take more words, so I'll just leave it alone.
How words constrict us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank_The_Tank
I would honestly do anything to see something that my brain cannot perceve. Just thinking about the thought of seeing something that my brain cannot perceve blows my mind when im baked because i kno that nothing i think of as unable to perceve is really unable to perceve because i thought of it.
Well... there is a lot of people that claims they have saw things life UFO's, spirits, angels, etc, and i believe some of this people (not all, but some) really saw something completly foreign to our everyday reality, and tried to render it to some familiar thing, so the seeming absurdity of some descriptions. ("A mettalic bird? are you crazy??? ")
Anyway, there is a lot of ways to percieve things unknown to our everyday mind. I would suggest a gb-hit of the strongest weed :jointsmile:, or a dose of some psychedelic (i wont mention the names of them explicitly because i dont want this post deleted... but you know what i mean ;) ), or some meditation. Doing so, soon you will discover new worlds unthinked before...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
I think that all sounds fairly good. At the very least, its very emotive... But can you try using fewer words?
Well... i think its OK... althought it is indeed very emotive, i liked it very much!
Afghooey does you were stoned when did write that? I ask it because when im stoned i can percieve the world in a way FAR more detailed than when im sober. For me seems i became a children again, and im seeing the world as if it were brand new... everything is so interesting, so a novelty... for me the weed brings back the forgotten wonder of just looking at the things as they are, instead just recognizing what i see, giving it a name, and forgeting it immediatly after.
How words constrict us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coelho
Afghooey does you were stoned when did write that? I ask it because when im stoned i can percieve the world in a way FAR more detailed than when im sober. For me seems i became a children again, and im seeing the world as if it were brand new... everything is so interesting, so a novelty... for me the weed brings back the forgotten wonder of just looking at the things as they are, instead just recognizing what i see, giving it a name, and forgeting it immediatly after.
does you were? I suspect you were fairly stoned yourself. When you have a moment of clarity, I'd be interested in hearing how you manage to see the world in a more detailed way, without simply giving it more names.
Traditionally, it seems that that is what detail is. And I don't see how you'd be getting away from conceptualizations and language by doing so...
How words constrict us...
Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but I don't think that English is Coelho's first language. From his flag, I would guess Portuguese?
And I don't mean to be presumptuous either, but I think I have an idea of what he is talking about in seeing more details while stoned.
Take a look at the palm of your hand, for example. You can keep looking closer and closer, and for each new 'thing' you see, you can attach a word. First, 'palm'... you look closer, and you see all these little 'wrinkles'. And if you looked much closer, you'd see 'skin cells', the parts of those cells, the molecules that compose them, and so on. But if you only look closely enough to recognize the wrinkles in your palm as wrinkles, or the molecules as molecules, you miss a lot of detail.
While you could name each line, each cell, and each molecule that you see by its unique position in space, doing so isn't at all necessary in order to experience them.. in fact, most words just seem to be generalizations, a way of simplifying our perceptions in order to more easily communicate them.
It may be impossible for us to get away from conceptualizations, but not necessarily language. I know I have experienced in times of tranquility, often while high but not always, that I'm not thinking in terms of words at all. There's no internal dialogue. And for that reason I find myself more able to recognize details because I don't have the distraction of words. I haven't really learned how to 'shut off' my internal dialogue by choice, as it seems the more I try to the less I can.. but when I'm particularly relaxed and often while I'm drawing or painting, it's definitely easier to slip into that state.
How words constrict us...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Polymirize
does you were? I suspect you were fairly stoned yourself. When you have a moment of clarity, I'd be interested in hearing how you manage to see the world in a more detailed way, without simply giving it more names.
Traditionally, it seems that that is what detail is. And I don't see how you'd be getting away from conceptualizations and language by doing so...
Well... Afghooey did understand and explained almost everything i would about the subject in his post.
And he is right, portuguese is my first (and only) language. I try to write in english, but im sure there is a lot of things i write can sound absurd. Pity i cant see the absurds i write (as for me they seem ok), cause i think it would be hilarious! :D
