A path to faith with science
snowblind:
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nature is awesome. i have read many of your posts and threads. engaged in debate with you myself and watch every other people do it themselves. but it ultimately boils down to one thing with you and that is. the internal feeling of good.
That's not true at all. That's just one side of the evidence. You completely ignore that fact that the intitial reason I even created this thread was to show that a clear and sure path to a logical and reasonable faith can be built upon solid proof and evidence we know about ourselfs and our universe.
I have heard little at all about that, and have heard lots of other stray arguements. But basically the 2nd law was an objection, and then I dealed with that.
So before you go telling me it's just my feelings, why don't you review my original post and come and tell me why it is or isn't flawed because that's what this is all about.
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ok now you feel him, thats fine. that is your proof. all your evidence points you to this conclusion in that it is subjective and blinkered. a lot of your proof isn't proof, it isnt evidence and it isn't fact.
Oh you mean like the Fact that you are thinking? Or the Fact that you exist?
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its rehtoric, spin and assumptions. but too you it is the truth. the trouble is we live in what im am sure will be called the information age. people filter thousands of bytes of data a minuate an hour and our brains are adept at functioning out the stuff that is not relevant to ourselves.
rhetoric, spin and assumptions. I clearly don't see what you're talking about, if you'd like to give me an example I'll be sure to get back to you.
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what you fail to see is that most people don't believe, they don't have faith. they have prooved to themselves that god doesn't exist. you will never ever ever convince anyone that god exists, if they don't think he does.
I can reason with people, and show them the evidence. But if they refuse not to see it and not accept it, then there's nothing I can do. In the end, they have to prove it to themselves. When people don't they turn it back on me and say it doesn't exist and I have no proof.
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your inital lengthy post. makes numerous assumptions and percieves certain data as being evidence. when really the only real, tangible, 100 % concrete evidence that you have and i hate to break it to you, is that you FEEL god.
That's not true.
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now that is good for you man. i like listening to your debate and i really wanna know where dinosaurs fit into gods plan being that man just wasn't arround during any stage of their exisitance, discounting birds, reptiles sharks and nessie.
I assure you that lock ness will not be part of my response on dinosoars.
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i guess beliving in god, heaven and hot angels is a nice way to live. that there will be something after. but i would hate to put faith in that and live half a life and it to not happen. rather than be a good person, live and see what happens.
You know you're not good. None of us are good. I don't believe in blind faith either man, I'm trying to show that to you.
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your reasoning and logic is aggressive, flawed, untactful and well laughable at times.
Aggresive? Untactful? If you can show me how, then I'll be sure to make a change in my behaviour. That certainly would be counterproductive. But as for flawed, I've yet to see you prove that.
snowblind.
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i wish you luck man
I don't believe in luck. I believe in perserverance and Love.
A path to faith with science
It boils down to this. Faith comes with substance and evidence. You can't have Faith if you don't have Jesus.
I posses substance and evidence inside me that God is true. If you think I'm lying, you have to provide proof.
If someone gives their testimony in a court of law, it's the accuser who has to prove that the testimony is a lie.
You can call me a liar all you want, but keep in mind that all you're doing is accusing. No matter how many of these threads we go through, no one will ever prove that God is not in me. You can choose not to believe me, but that doesn't mean I'm lying. Peace!
A path to faith with science
Here is my explanation about dinosaurs.
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Genesis 1
23And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
24And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
25And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
SO God created the dinosaurs. And then he created people. And they got along fine because everyone was vegetarians:
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Genesis 1
28 God blessed them; and God said to them, "(AJ)Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."
29 Then God said, "Behold, (AK)I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the surface of all the earth, and every tree which has fruit yielding seed; it shall be food for you;
30 and to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the sky and to every thing that moves on the earth which has life, I have given every green plant for food"; and it was so.
Before sin there was no death, and there were no dinosaur bones before Adam sinned. Romans 5:12; Genesis 2:17; Genesis 1:29-30; Romans 8:20-22; Acts 3:21; Revelation 22:3.)
But the earth became full of wickedness, and God told a godly man named Noah that He was going to destroy the world with a Flood (Genesis 6:13). God therefore commanded him to build a great ship (the Ark) so that all the kinds of land animals (which must have included dinosaurs) and Noah??s family could survive on board while the Flood destroyed the entire Earth (Genesis 6:14-20).
God sent the animals onto the ark, and even though there would be plenty of room for large animals, they could have been young dinosaurs that weren't fully grown.
But what happened to all of the dinosaurs and other animals that weren't on the ark? They drowned. Many would have been covered with tons of mud as the rampaging water covered the land (Genesis 7:11-12,19). Because of this quick burial, many of the animals would have been preserved as fossils. If this happened, you would expect to find evidence of lots of dead things buried in rock layers (formed from this mud) all over the Earth. This is exactly what you do find.
Creationists believe this flood formed many of the fossil layers around the earth. fossil layers were formed by other floods as the Earth settled down after the great Flood.
In the Bible, in Job 40:15-24, God describes to Job (who lived after the Flood) a great beast with which Job was familiar. This great animal was called behemoth. The bible says he moved his tail like a cedar tree. Although some Bible commentaries say this may have been an elephant or hippopotamus, the description actually fits that of a dinosaur. Elephants and hippos do not have tails like cedar trees.
the word ??dragon?? is used a number of times in the Old Testament. In most instances, the word dinosaur could substitute for dragon and it would fit very nicely. Creation scientists believe that dinosaurs were called dragons before the word dinosaur was invented in the 1800s. We would not expect to find the word dinosaur in Bibles like the Authorized Version (1611), as it was translated well before the word dinosaur was ever used.More can be read about that here (halfway down "does the bible mention dinosaurs":
What happened to the dinosaurs?
Also, there are many very old history books in various libraries around the world that have detailed records of dragons and their encounters with people. Surprisingly (or not so surprisingly for creationists), many of these descriptions of dragons fit with how modern scientists would describe dinosaurs, even Tyrannosaurus. Unfortunately, this evidence is not considered valid by evolutionists.
the more we research the historical literature, the more we realize there is overwhelming evidence that dragons were real beasts, much like our modern reconstructions of dinosaurs, and that their existence has been recorded by many different people, even just hundreds of years ago.
Evolutionists have many guesses as to what happened to dinosaurs. some of them include:
Dinosaurs starved to death; they died from overeating; they were poisoned; they became blind from cataracts and could not reproduce; mammals ate their eggs. Other causes include-volcanic dust, poisonous gases, comets, sunspots, meteorites, mass suicide, constipation, parasites, shrinking brain (and greater stupidity), slipped discs, changes in the composition of air, etc.
So they're pretty much clueless.
A plausible explanation for extinction of dinosaurs for evolution would have to explain the death, all at the same time, of animals living on land and of animals living in the sea. but, in both cases, of only some of those animals, for many of the land dwellers and many of the sea-dwellers went on living quite happily into the following period. And no such explanation exists.
But if you take the Bible seriously, you will find an explanation that fits the facts and makes perfect sense:
At the time of the Flood, many of the sea creatures died, but some survived. In addition, all of the land creatures outside the Ark died, but the representatives of all the kinds that survived on the Ark lived in the new world after the Flood. Those land animals (including dinosaurs) found the new world to be much different than the one before the Flood. Due to competition for food that was no longer in abundance, other catastrophes, man killing for food , and the destruction of habitats, etc., many species of animals eventually died out. The group of animals we now call dinosaurs just happened to die out too. In fact, quite a number of animals become extinct each year. Extinction seems to be the rule in Earth history (not the formation of new types of animals as you would expect from evolution).
Bones do not have to be ??turned into stone? to be fossils, and usually most of the original bone is still present in a dinosaur fossil if the actual bone is not replaced by rock minerals, some fossil dinosaur bones are rock-hard, and show under the microscope when cut that they have been thoroughly ??permineralized.?? This means that rock minerals have been deposited into all the spaces within the original bone.
But fossils don't take a long time to form at all. The time it takes to become fully fossilized is really variable. If the groundwater has a lot of minerals, then it can heavy pretty fast. If a bone today fell into a mineral spring it could become fossilized in a matter of weeks.
Already dinosaur bones have been found which defy the theory of evolution containing not only blood, but tissue and complete blood vessels.If evolution were true, these bones would have had to survive for seventy million years or longer.
Dinosaur soft tissue find—a stunning rebuttal of "millions of years"
Fresh dinosaur bones have been found in places such as Alaska and Montana .
The scrambling continues
Fresh dinosaur bones found
There have also been reported sightings of dinosaurs and dinosaur looking creatures:
A living dinosaur?
Are dinosaurs alive today?
It has been argued by evolutionists that if Dinosaurs and humans lived together, then why don't we see them buried together. But if they're not buried together that doesn't automatically mean they didn't live together, it just means they weren't buried together. As the floodwaters rose during the flood of Noah, humans would have headed for higher ground or swam or held onto debris for as long as possible. Also humans corpses bloat and float on the waters surface. Very few humans would be buried by sediment, but rather decayed without fossilization.
Marine creatures and plants were the first things buried and fossilized, since they are at a lower elevation and couldn??t escape the sediment and water.The fossil record shows that:
95% of all fossils were marine organisms.
95% of the remaining 5% were algae, plants/trees.
95% of the remaining 0.25% were invertebrates, including insects.
The remaining 0.0125% were vertebrates, mostly fish.
So, we shouldn??t expect to find many human fossils at all. There may be human fossils lower down, but the creationist flood model doesn't need it. Human bones aren't found with coelacanths either, but they are here with us today.(coelacanths are a type of fish, which scientists claimed to have gone extinct millions of years ago but have recently been found alive)
There is also evidence to support mammoths being hunted in America 10,000 years ago (on evolutionists terms and admissions).:
Messages on stone
people think of Dinosaurs as massive creatures that wouldn't have fit on the ark. But the average size of a dinosaur is about the size of a sheep. Many of the dinosaurs were relatively small.Only a few dinosaurs grew to extremely large sizes .Dinosaurs lay eggs, and the largest one known is about the size of a football. Even the largest dinosaurs were small when first hatched. Some might argue that the 600 or more species of dinosaurs could not have fitted on the Ark. But the bible teaches that God created separate kinds of animals. It is then possible to understand how there could have been fewer dinosaurs with more genetic information to pass down to generations and split off into different specialized groups. It has been estimated that as few as 50 dinosaurs could have been on the ark.
Also, it must be remembered that Noah??s Ark was extremely large and quite capable of carrying the number of animals needed, including dinosaurs. The idea of a tiny odd shaped pathetic little craft with animals heads sticking out of the windows has permeated people's mind far and wide, such as this one:
http://www.muralsforkids.com/images/NoahsArk.jpg
This misrepresentation is of course absurd. The real Noah's ark would have looked more like this:
http://www.combatreform2.com/noahsarkhil.jpg
http://www.worldwideflood.com/genera...lutherark2.gif
There are many skeptics, but few have have actually performed the calculations. There are two questions that need to be addressed. How many types of animals did Noah need to take? Was the ark large enough to hold all the required animals?
In the Bible it says as I stated before that God did not created animals in the sense of speciation that we know today. It says he created them into different kinds of animals. So starting back further in time, there could have been less animals with greater potential for speciation and more variability in their genetic information. Thus there would be less animals that would need to fit on the ark. One estimate by John Woodmorappe, author of a book called Noah's ark: A feasible study estimates the number to be about 8000 genera, including extinct genera, thus about 16,000 individual animals which had to be aboard. This calculation apparently don't include invertebrates, but with the current model their is said to be plenty of room in the ark.
Of the 668 supposed dinosaur genera, only 106 weighed more than ten tons when fully grown.The median size of all animals on the ark would actually have been that of a small rat, according to Woodmorappe??s up-to-date tabulations, while only about 11 % would have been much larger than a sheep.
Here is some calculations of the size of the ark:
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The Ark measured 300x50x30 cubits (Genesis 6:15), which is about 140x23x13.5 metres or 459x75x44 feet, so its volume was 43,500 m3 (cubic metres) or 1.54 million cubic feet. To put this in perspective, this is the equivalent volume of 522 standard American railroad stock cars, each of which can hold 240 sheep.
If the animals were kept in cages with an average size of 50x50x30 centimetres (20x20x12 inches), that is 75,000 cm3 (cubic centimetres) or 4800 cubic inches, the 16,000 animals would only occupy 1200 m3 (42,000 cubic feet) or 14.4 stock cars. Even if a million insect species had to be on board, it would not be a problem, because they require little space. If each pair was kept in cages of 10 cm (four inches) per side, or 1000 cm3, all the insect species would occupy a total volume of only 1000 m3, or another 12 cars. This would leave room for five trains of 99 cars each for food, Noah??s family and ??range?? for the animals.
Tabulating the total volume is fair enough, since this shows that there would be plenty of room on the Ark for the animals with plenty left over for food, range etc. It would be possible to stack cages, with food on top or nearby (to minimize the amount of food carrying the humans had to do), to fill up more of the Ark space, while still allowing plenty of room for gaps for air circulation. We are discussing an emergency situation, not necessarily luxury accommodation. Although there is plenty of room for exercise, skeptics have overstated animals?? needs for exercise anyway.
Even if we don??t allow stacking one cage on top of another to save floor space, there would be no problem. Woodmorappe shows from standard recommended floor space requirements for animals that all of them together would have needed less than half the available floor space of the Ark??s three decks. This arrangement allows for the maximum amount of food and water storage on top of the cages close to the animals.
How did all the animals fit on Noah's Ark?
Here are some examples of how large the ark was:
WWF: Compare Noahs Ark
WWF: Ark Images
WWF: Ark Modelers
Modeling the size of Noah’s Ark
Scale model replica of Noah's ark
Picture of Inside of Noah's Ark
A path to faith with science
Edit: whoops posted that a second time on accident.
A path to faith with science
How did Noah handle all the very small animals and creatures? There are more than 1 million known species. If each species could be contained, say, in a large jar, that'd require a million jars, plus shelves and such to support it all. Figure 10 pounds per jar, for the creatures themselves, the jar, food for them, and whatever environmental needs they might have. So, now we have 10 million pounds of containers that gotta fit on the Ark.
Now you need water for all million species, as ocean water doesn't work for most of them. Figure a pound of water per day per species, minimum. So a mere two week sojourn would have necessitated carrying at least 14 million pounds of water.
The man days involved is even more impressive, because some species are only located in this area or that area of the world, so you'd probably need at least a couple of hundred major seafaring expeditions to go round up the various species. Given the technology of the day, if they had a few tens of thousands of people sailing the world collecting all the species, it'd still have taken them hundreds of years to complete the task. I assume Noah was related to Methuselah, to have lived long enough to see the enterprise through.
All-in-all, for the Noah's Ark myth to be true, the ship would have needed to be as large as one of our current largest cargo ships, if not larger. And structurally speaking, wood would not have been adequate to the task, so he must have used something else. I don't think they had any major steel-making facilities in those days, however.
So, a million jars (or pens, for the larger species), millions of pounds of water, millions of pounds of food, people to do the work keeping everything alive, a couple hundred years, a fleet of ships, an army of workers, factories capable of mass producing strong metals, shipyards enormous enough to hold a massive cargo container, and yet, we haven't found this thing? It'd be bigger, stronger and more durable than the freaking Great Pyramid!
I'm mildly skeptical.
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Oh you mean like the Fact that you are thinking? Or the Fact that you exist?
Ive pretty much given up on the discussion up to this point, we had both said what we wanted to say, and while I cant know for certain about how you think/feel, I feel that I understand where you are coming from, even if I do not agree with it at all.
The problem here is, once again, there is no fact that we exist, there is no fact that we are "thinking". All of us could very well be figments of your imagination, in which case, it isnt a fact that he exists, and its not a fact that he is thinking.
We could all be a part of some great beings dream, in which case its not a fact that we exist, and its not a fact that we are truely thinking.
Its very very very very very very very likely that we do exist, but its not a fact.
The only reason that the whole mental excercise of "Cognito ergo sum" exists, is because he took the liberty of excusing the possibility of him being a part of the Dreamers theory. He specifically stated that to assume that would mean that anything is possible, and he was going to assume that it was not possible, to allow for him to continue.
A better, more modern example of something similar to the dreamers theory, is the movie "The Matrix". In that movie, they live in a world which is not real, living lives that are not real, and feeling and doing things which were not real. Something similiar could be happening, and we would not know unless someone outside of that system was able to inform us. Otherwise, we would be oblivious.
I got to head off to work now, Ill finish this up if I read through and see I need to add more when I get back.
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by jamstigator
How did Noah handle all the very small animals and creatures? There are more than 1 million known species. If each species could be contained, say, in a large jar, that'd require a million jars, plus shelves and such to support it all. Figure 10 pounds per jar, for the creatures themselves, the jar, food for them, and whatever environmental needs they might have. So, now we have 10 million pounds of containers that gotta fit on the Ark.
Now you need water for all million species, as ocean water doesn't work for most of them. Figure a pound of water per day per species, minimum. So a mere two week sojourn would have necessitated carrying at least 14 million pounds of water.
The man days involved is even more impressive, because some species are only located in this area or that area of the world, so you'd probably need at least a couple of hundred major seafaring expeditions to go round up the various species. Given the technology of the day, if they had a few tens of thousands of people sailing the world collecting all the species, it'd still have taken them hundreds of years to complete the task. I assume Noah was related to Methuselah, to have lived long enough to see the enterprise through.
All-in-all, for the Noah's Ark myth to be true, the ship would have needed to be as large as one of our current largest cargo ships, if not larger. And structurally speaking, wood would not have been adequate to the task, so he must have used something else. I don't think they had any major steel-making facilities in those days, however.
So, a million jars (or pens, for the larger species), millions of pounds of water, millions of pounds of food, people to do the work keeping everything alive, a couple hundred years, a fleet of ships, an army of workers, factories capable of mass producing strong metals, shipyards enormous enough to hold a massive cargo container, and yet, we haven't found this thing? It'd be bigger, stronger and more durable than the freaking Great Pyramid!
I'm mildly skeptical.
Where did all the wood come from, anyways? Joe Rogan has a great bit about the ark.
"If you tell the story of Noah's Ark to.... an 8 year old retarded boy, he's gonna have some questions. Why do we have to believe the story just because it's been around a long time when it doesn't make any sense?..."
A path to faith with science
ok well, the majority of evidence supports that dinosaurs and human only coexisted for a small amount of time and that dinosaurs inhabited the earth alot longer before man.
if dinosaurs became carnivorus because of the downfall of man ie sin then why didnt all become carnivorus and wouldnt this mean there was a change in their thinking, in that they decided not to eat meat, then didnt care that they did.
considereing the brain power of most dinosaurs was small this is highly unlikely
the ark. ok. rite. a ship. containg 2 of every animal in the world. 2. the logistics of this are laughable. the fact one man or a handful of people made this is retarded. but mainly where is the ark ? and if this is true then we are all inbreds from a very very very very small gene pool of people left over after the floods culling. but i am also asuming that on the ark where a pair of people from all ethnic backgrounds. to allow for the localised skin pigment mutations of humans around the world
but finally i ask if the ark was real, floated saved us all. wouldnt it have been herald. preserved. saved.
where is it
natureisawesome. please for the love of god watch the planet of the apes, especially the tribuanl scene.
snow
A path to faith with science
Jamstigator said:
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How did Noah handle all the very small animals and creatures? There are more than 1 million known species. If each species could be contained, say, in a large jar, that'd require a million jars, plus shelves and such to support it all. Figure 10 pounds per jar, for the creatures themselves, the jar, food for them, and whatever environmental needs they might have. So, now we have 10 million pounds of containers that gotta fit on the Ark.
They weren't divided into the species we know today.Didn't you read what it said? I said that God created all of the animals in different "kinds". for instance, the dog is a kind. There are a lot of variations that can come in a dog, but they're all dogs. The article also pointed out that there would only have needed to be 16,000 pairs and there would still have been room left over easily with space to spare even with another 1,000,000 insect species. There would have been left about 1/2 of the 3 decks in a model with plenty of room left for invertebrates, food water and "range" space. You know a lot of people, intelligent people have worked on this. A lot of people criticize but they ignore the evidence.
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Now you need water for all million species, as ocean water doesn't work for most of them. Figure a pound of water per day per species, minimum. So a mere two week sojourn would have necessitated carrying at least 14 million pounds of water.
It rained alot during this time (as you can imagine. Also, there was plenty of space left on the ark as I showed above and in what I wrote. There are also other methods of distillation they could have used on the ark. There would have been no need. Besides, the massive amount of rainfall would have seriously diluted the seawater anyway, perhaps enough to drink with no distillation at all. Also, when animals aren't active, they need a lot less water.
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The man days involved is even more impressive, because some species are only located in this area or that area of the world, so you'd probably need at least a couple of hundred major seafaring expeditions to go round up the various species. Given the technology of the day, if they had a few tens of thousands of people sailing the world collecting all the species, it'd still have taken them hundreds of years to complete the task. I assume Noah was related to Methuselah, to have lived long enough to see the enterprise through.
Actually that's not how it happened at all. It simply says, "There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah". According to this, Noah did not have to go get them; they simply came. How God effected that the Bible does not say.
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Genesis 6
20Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto thee, to keep them alive.
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All-in-all, for the Noah's Ark myth to be true, the ship would have needed to be as large as one of our current largest cargo ships, if not larger. And structurally speaking, wood would not have been adequate to the task, so he must have used something else. I don't think they had any major steel-making facilities in those days, however.
The boat has already been proven to be plenty adequate to carry the amount of animals. And yes wood would have been plenty adequate also. Please study the calculations before
you go saying it can't be strong enough. I'm sure that engineers more than a few times
have worked on this. Also remember that Noah was 500 years old when first mentioned in Genesis, and 600 years old when he enters into the ark. So there could have been up to 100 years for him to work on the ark.
WorldwideFlood.com
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So, a million jars (or pens, for the larger species), millions of pounds of water, millions of pounds of food, people to do the work keeping everything alive, a couple hundred years, a fleet of ships, an army of workers, factories capable of mass producing strong metals, shipyards enormous enough to hold a massive cargo container, and yet, we haven't found this thing? It'd be bigger, stronger and more durable than the freaking Great Pyramid!
But actually when we look at the real data and find out what was really required it wasn't like that at all. You don't understand that the dimensions for that boat lead to a type of vessel that was very strong, much stronger than any normal wood ship. It was like a big huge sturdy bardge. And comparing it to the pyramids isn't correct. It's two different kinds of strengths. Wood is more flexible and if the ark were made out of something that hard it would be .. a rock.
A path to faith with science
What about the fish? And the animals who float on water?
A huge fuckoff flood wouldnt have affected them at all. And the point was to start all over...
I mean, god didnt say, "Two of every kind on the ark, except the swimming ones, and the floating ones."
Granted I find parts of the entire ordeal a bit of a stretch, since good and bad are human creations, and animals have no concept of good and bad. I mean, are there bad giraffe's? And if so, how are they bad/evil?
