Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
Wow, that's not even subtle bait and switch. Can't you be a little more deft with your tactics? What does the Taliban have to do with anything? Again, instead of debating the issues at hand you seek to inflame and obfuscate.
Once again genius, I am not defending Hamas, Fatah, or anyone else. So stop trying to paint me with that brush. Otherwise I'm going to have to start accusing you of being a Klan member or some equally unfounded charge.
I do oppose the subjugation of the national rights of another people, especially when it is done in our (USA) name.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
This argument will never end, there's no point. Shits nasty on both sides........its sad for all the innocent children on both sides and we can all agree on that.
You sat on the beaches, you ate in the restaurants, you drove from Haifa to Tel Aviv to Jerusalem without hassles. Life ain't so nasty on the Israeli side. Sucks a lot more for the the kids in Gaza and the West Bank. If you didn't see that then you were walking around with your eyes closed, which seems likely. Don't try to equate the two. There is no comparison. You are smarter than that.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
... This argument will never end, there's no point. Shits nasty on both sides........its sad for all the innocent children on both sides and we can all agree on that.
Amen, brother. That is all we all want to see. A world where no innocent child ever has to die or live in terror. It is just sad to see on both sides.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by boaz
thats, true. maybe bigoted would be a better description. or just prejudiced. :twocents:
Jihadi, Islam-o-fascist, haji, rag head - These are racist terms but I'll settle for jingoistic. They are used to evoke a visceral, gut response from an audience that has little understanding of the issues beyond the Fox News / CNN / NYT perspective. They are applied to groups of people, lumping together those that they seek to smear with the truly reprehensible. See Islandboy's post about the Taliban hanging a 7 year old for a good example of a variation on this theme: Taliban = Hamas. You are defending Palestinian rights, therefore you support Hamas and therefore you support the Taliban and therefore you have this 7 year old's blood on your hands.
These tactics are old, transparent, and simplistic; they are indicative of deep seated hatred and fear. I call it for what it is. It has nothing to do with being PC. People who use these terms in this generalized fashion are racists. But I don't expect them to be able to see that.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsby
These tactics are old, transparent, and simplistic; they are indicative of deep seated hatred and fear.
Not exactly. It can also be a tactic of those that have seen the attrocities over the decades with Arafat as their poster child for hate and terrorism in the name of Allah. I'm hardly against muslims, but I am against terror tactics, using women and children as human shields, killing innocent civilians.
Do you think that by denying their heritage (by attempting to create a new history of the region and it's historical tribes) muslims would be denying their biblical foundation and credibility, and thusly twisting history like they do is likely a crime against Allah? :wtf:
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
I saw the camps.....saw the poverty. Didn't change my opinions at all....made me wonder how so many people could listen to uneducated fools and outright racists for their leaders. Its the leaders of Palestine that keep their people enslaved, not Israel. Hamas, the Taliban, Fattah, Al Queda.....there all the same. Bunch of religous zealots who want a RADICAL, oppressive, and barabaric, nation of islam throughout the middle east and the world.
Here is some video of Hamas's "spiritual leader" comparing Jewish People to bacteria. In the words of Joseph Georbels......"When one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it....."
MEMRI - The Middle East Media Research Institute
No worries though.....im sure those Nuclear facilities built in a Mountain are for peaceful purposes in Iram......those are some High Class trustworthy cats running Iran.
Feel free to call me Redneck, honky, cracker, whiteboy, christian nut, make fun of God or Jesus....I could care less. Words don't bother me.....ya know....cause they are words and I enjoy freedom of speech wether for or against me......and im not a whiny pussy either.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigsby
You sat on the beaches, you ate in the restaurants, you drove from Haifa to Tel Aviv to Jerusalem without hassles. Life ain't so nasty on the Israeli side. Sucks a lot more for the the kids in Gaza and the West Bank. If you didn't see that then you were walking around with your eyes closed, which seems likely. Don't try to equate the two. There is no comparison. You are smarter than that.
If you believe Islandborn, he's seen everything and been everywhere and probably has 100 lbs of shrimp boiling again. What BS. :twocents:
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by gypski
If you believe Islandborn, he's seen everything and been everywhere and probably has 100 lbs of shrimp boiling again. What BS. :twocents:
Deir Ammar is a very small refugee camp south east of Ramallah - about 2 or 3 thousand people. Actually the town and the camp have pretty much grown together over the years. It is UN administered (like all camps) and sits just down the hill from the Ministry of Education and one of two UN run vocational training centers in the Ramallah area. It is a hop skip and a jump away from the Park hotel and it abuts the main Jerusalem to Ramallah road at the south eastern most point. As camps go it is fairly affluent. Ramallah provides a decent source of jobs and camp residents do quite well in comparison to most. Note that camps in Gaza are upwards of 100,000 thousand people cramped on a single square kilometer where jobs are non-existent, not to mention crayons, school books, cardamon and the rest of the stuff on list of goods prohibited by Israel. You haven't seen poverty till you've been to Jabaliyya, Nuseirat, Beach Camp, Sheik Radwan, etc.
If he says he's been there, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. Ramallah is a short and easy service taxi ride from Jerusalem. Palestinians are welcoming and hospitable people so long as you are not there to shoot their children, imprison their people, or steal their land. I have little reason to doubt that he's been to Israel and a day trip to Ramallah is easily doable.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
I would like to point out that Rusty refrained from direct personal attacks in his last posting. It needs to be recognized. Thank you Rusty.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Not exactly. It can also be a tactic of those that have seen the attrocities over the decades with Arafat as their poster child for hate and terrorism in the name of Allah.
So you admit that racist and jingoistic attacks are part of your tactics. Wow. You sure you don't want to walk that one back?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
I'm hardly against muslims, but I am against terror tactics, using women and children as human shields, killing innocent civilians. Do you think that by denying their heritage (by attempting to create a new history of the region and it's historical tribes) muslims would be denying their biblical foundation and credibility, and thusly twisting history like they do is likely a crime against Allah? :wtf:
I don't even know where to start with you on this one, Rusty. It is hard to make sense of what you are trying to say here. Let me see if I have this right. You start by saying you are "hardly against muslims" but then in the next sentence you say that to deny they use terror tactics would be "denying their heritage." That's incredible, Rusty. You just said that you think that violence is part of the Islamic tradition which pretty much makes your first statement a lie and you a bigot. Again, is this really what you want to be on the record with here or did it just come out wrong? So, in Rusty's world, it all boils down to a religious fight where Islam is a violent religion whose adherents share a blood lust for Jews? Is that it? Really? I get the feeling that you may be some kind of religious loony yourself, Rusty.
Let's try to deconstruct Rusty's world.
Concerning Arafat and the PLO: The PLO and Arafat formalized their movement in 1964 when Arab socialism and Arab nationalism where at their nadir (Rusty, it means peak) and as such they modeled their movement largely along those lines. Religion was not part of the movement. Where they religious? Sure, many were. Many were not. Moreover, the PLO included Muslims AND Christians. Point being that religion was not the driving force of the movement. Inconvenient but true. The religious movements came much much later thanks to blow back from our failed interventions in the Middle East and Muslim world and after years of West denying Arab demands for a solution based on justice and reciprocity.
Here are a few key dates that cumulatively fueled religious movements in the Middle East - Lebanon (1952 - thanks Roosevelt - did you know that Marines landed in Lebanon in 1952?), Iran (1953 - thanks Roosevelt - we've been over this) and Afghanistan (1980 - 1983 thanks Regan for creating a well armed fundamentalist army - we can review this if you need to). There are many more but these give you a place to start.
Unfortunately, the Arabs in general and Palestinians and Lebanese in particular, came to understand that their leaders were / are corrupt ineffective puppets of the West. They realized that Islamic fundamentalism offered another route to social and political justice. Why? It wasn't what they said, it's what they did. They got things done. They built schools, hospitals, and roads, they established social welfare systems and work programs, and they were seen as pious and free from corruption. On top of that they were successful in confronting the occupation militarily. Something the PLO could never sustain. And let's just be clear, armed resistance to a belligerent occupation is accepted under international law.
Now please Rusty et al, do not try to twist this to portray me as a supporter of terrorism or the killing of women and children, or as a supporter of Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, the Sword of the Prophet or any other such organization. I do not. I'm trying to give you some insight as to why and how we got to where we are today. You want to lay it all at the feet of Islam which is both bigoted and wrong. As usual, the truth is far far more complicated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Do you think that by denying their heritage (by attempting to create a new history of the region and it's historical tribes) muslims would be denying their biblical foundation and credibility, and thusly twisting history like they do is likely a crime against Allah?
You really need to read some history Rusty. Really. What underlays this incredible statement is that you believe that Islam spread so far and fast because of the sword, right Rusty? Islam spread as far and as fast as it did because it granted people rights and it promoted social justice based on morality, Rusty. It granted rights to people who didn't have them. Women, slaves, the dispossessed. That is what attracted early converts. Like any major shift in religious and political power, fighting was part of the equation, but it was not the reason for the success of Islam. Tell me, where did the Jews go to escape the slaughter of the Christian Inquisition? Where did they run to for safe haven? They ran to the Muslim world - what is now Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Libya, and Egypt. Why? Because they knew they would be protected there, that they had rights there.
This has been a lot of reading for you. Are you still with me, Rusty? When I first got involved with this discussion I thought I might have to crack a few books - brush up on some history; that I might get some real debate on some real issues. Turns out I was wrong. Put some god damn facts on the table, not blathering half truths and jingoistic BS. Please. I'm begging for some real discussion here.
Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed
Quote:
Originally Posted by Islandborn
Here is some video of Hamas's "spiritual leader" comparing Jewish People to bacteria. In the words of Joseph Georbels......"When one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it....."
It's really funny that you quote Goebbels and then you cite MEMRI - an organization who has been accused of practicing Nazi-like propaganda techniques. (I'm not sure I trust your quote since you can't even spell his name correctly, perhaps you meant gerbils?)
Below is a bit of information about MEMRI. You can find the full article here:
MEMRI's obsessive interest in protecting Israel derives from the people and interests that founded, fund and manage the institute's international operations.
It was founded in 1998 by Yigal Carmon, a former colonel in the Israel Defense Forces (Intelligence Branch) from 1968 until 1988, acting head of civil administration in the West Bank from 1977 to 1982; and Israeli-born Meyrav Wurmser, an extreme rightwing neoconservative now affiliated with the Hudson Institute.
Meyrav is married to David Wurmser, at one time an American Enterprise Institute "scholar" and then a State Department apparatchik under John Bolton.
Both participated in the collective writing of "A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm," a seminal 1996 neocon document that advocated an end to negotiations with the Palestinians and permanent war against the Arab world.
They also worked with Douglas Feith, Elliot Abrams, Richard Perle and other rightwing ideologues who promoted and embellished the fiction that Saddam Hussein was behind 9/11.
MEMRI has offices in Jerusalem, Berlin, London, Washington and Tokyo, and in a 2006 Jerusalem Post interview, Carmon claimed to have one in Iraq.
It translates film and print into English, German, Hebrew, Italian, French, Spanish and Japanese.
Tax returns for 2004 indicate American funding of between two to three million dollars, much of it from conservative donors and foundations - but those who have followed its far-flung operations suspect much higher expenditures.
Besides Carmon, several MEMRI staffers are former Israeli intelligence specialists. Especially troubling are suspected links between MEMRI and the current Israeli intelligence establishment.
According to a 2005 article in Israel's Ha'aretz, the Israeli Defense Forces plants fake stories in the Arab media, which it then translates and tries to retail to Israeli journalists. How much of MEMRI is simply an extension of such IDF operations?
