A path to faith with science
Junkyard,
I know this might sound different to you, but I'm not a sinner. A sinner is a person who sins. The bible on several occasions makes this distinction, both in the the new and old testament. :
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1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
and others.
The point is, yes we stumble but I don't sin anymore. It's my flesh that's doing it, and I'm fighting against it.
In any case, this thread is starting to get off topic junkyard, and if you want we can continue this elsewhere but I want this thread to focus on the topic I started it for.
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Oh yeah, sorry about messing up the name Hardcore newbie. It says new-bee, so that just kind of stuck in my head.
I dare ask, who is kimbo peppers?
Ahhh, I was just wondering the thought process.
And Kimbo Peppers is a combination of Brian Peppers and Kimbo Slice.
Both of these people are very popular avatars on another message board I go to about mixed martial arts fighting, so I combined the two to make the most ultimate popular avatar ever. Everyone who sees it on the other site laughs their ass off because I've combined the two most popular avatars, but it loses some of it's flair on this site. Only two people that I know of even knew who these people were :p
A path to faith with science
SO I have a question to get back to the topic.
What good reason does anyone have to doubt they exist?
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
SO I have a question to get back to the topic.
What good reason does anyone have to doubt they exist?
*they*? Kimbo and Peppers? :p j/k
the fact that god created adam and eve without knowledge, so without knowledge they can't make sound judgement. so when they disobey god, god was displeased and now the only way into forgiveness is to believe in him and accept him into your heart (by whichever method), and if not you get the razz (polite way of saying "go to hell")? Seems kinda... made up to me.
And it's not a post from me if i don't mention talking animals :)
A path to faith with science
Hardcore Newbie said:
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the fact that god created adam and eve without knowledge, so without knowledge they can't make sound judgement.
they knew enough not to eat from the tree.
A path to faith with science
I'm done with this thread for tonight. I'll come back when my brain (and everyone elses") hasgotten some sleep.
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I'm done with this thread for tonight. I'll come back when my brain (and everyone elses") hasgotten some sleep.
I'm only up because I'm doing tonnes of laundry. I live in an apartment, so the laundromat downstairs never has anyone there this late at night.... or early in the morning :P Perfect time to do laundry :D
A path to faith with science
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
SO I have a question to get back to the topic.
What good reason does anyone have to doubt they exist?
About the same amount or reasons that we have to doubt that they dont exist.
The playing field is even, as far as I am concerned. Its a quagmire. No one can truely prove that god(s) exist with current evidence available, but no one can disprove it either. That is literally why the call it faith.
In my personal opinion, if a person is leading a good life, no matter in who's name it is in, then why should they change their life to fit another god(s) ways?
I think we can all agree, loosely, on the ideas of good and bad, right and wrong, morals if you will. Now I have heard it mentioned that God gave us these, but I have a statement, if you will, in regards to this...
YOUR God gave YOU those. Call it my "faith", or whatever you will, but I think that it is very assuming to assume that morals came from one source. Our society as a whole in this country, and the world itself as well, has adapted our moral stances many many times, and will continue to do so. Chrisitian God may have given you your morals, and of that I do not doubt. The bible may have helped shaped current morals, but I believe that morals go above god(s). If god(s) do exist, our freewill was the greatest gift that they gave us. And in that freewill they gave us the ability to have morals, and let those morals be whatever we wish, as a part of our freewill. It doesnt mean that god doesnt have his set rules of whats good and bad, but they let us choose what we ourselves feel is good and bad.
Quick slightly over-exaggerated for the point example... Stealing is considered bad, and is stated so in the bible, correct? What about stealing to feed your family? What about stealing to save a life? What about stealing to protect the person whom you stole from? So many nuances, that can never fully be covered by any rules laid down in a book or by a god. Do you just go with the blanket ruling that stealing is bad, and leave it at that? Or do YOU have specific things out of that list that you feel is ok considering the circumstances? Things like that take consideration of the entire event, not just the one damning part of it, and its our freewill that lets US decide what we feel is right and wrong as a whole, and as an individual, even if a god(s) may have given the original ruleset to play by.
If you ever get a chance natureisawesome, I recommend reading through a few other religious texts, and to take the time to notice the similarities and differences in the "rules" of all of them. You would be shocked at how similar, yet so dis-similar they can be. It also helps put things in perspective, and to allow you to see where others are coming from who follow such religions. THe bible made more sense, on certain levels, after having read through the Qur'an and the big Buddhist texts(Four Noble Truth's, Noble Eightfold Path, the precepts), then it did before. Things just came into a bigger perspective, if you get what I am saying.
IDK, you might enjoy it, you might not, but I always think that full understanding of something you believe in is important, otherwise you may find you are following nothing but lies, or have misunderstood/interpretted something critical.
A path to faith with science
This is from a post a way back I overlooked.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
You don't need to see a miracle to recognize God's existence. You don't have to see a miracle to recognize God's nature. If you did, then god definitely would show you a miracle. Since you don't need to be shown a miracle, and it's required that man shall live by faith then you're excuseless and you're only testing God. The evidence to recognize God isn't something real hard to grasp. It's everywhere and so plain and obvious that it's insulting to ask to see a miracle. People tell themselves they can't see it and they don't. They choose to have no faith.
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Harcore Newbie:
What's so insulting about wanting to see a miracle? I can say the exact opposite that you just said, and I'd be just as right. You're stating opinions. Besides, you say god is all powerful, so it literally takes *nothing* for him to show me. I've already an open invitation to any God, god, deity or anything of the like to have a conversation with me. No takers so far (besides Flying Spaghetti Monster, of course).
I just told you what's so insulting about It. You don't need it and you're testing God. No that's not an opinion that's what God's word says.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
With the information there is to know about God, it's enough to have faith. You don't need the bible to know there's the all loving God in the bible. And why aren't you as suspicious about all history? Do you know there wasn't a talking donkey? I know I can't prove something i can't show you, but at the same time you have no way of knowing and the possibility still lies open there could be one in the past. So take care to recognize your bias.
Harcore newbie:
Do I know there wasn't a talking donkey? No, of course not, it's impossible to prove that something DIDN'T HAPPEN. I realize that nearly anything is possible (which I state clearly and often). if I'm biased for living in reality and realize the possibility of a talking donkey is highly unlikely, then call me bias.
Well yes I am going by God's word and record. And that is proven True. I don't believe anything is possible. I go with the evidence. It's not highly unlikely. And how can you judge what is more likely or not, if anything is possible??
h.n.:
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I'll ask you a few questions about a talking donkey. Do you believe that a donkey has ever spoken? And if so, why aren't you be suspicious? If you're not suspicious, would you believe me if I told you that my dog told me that god doesn't exist?
Yes i believe that a talking donkey spake. I'd have to check out and compare that to what we know about the universe and everything we know and see if it can be verified.
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I'm not suspicious of most history because unlike a talking donkey, it's.... what's the word.... believable. The only other books I've read with talking animals were called fairy tales.
I think universe and nature and all creation being as amazing as it is is many many times more miraculous and amazing than a talking donkey.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Not just values and beliefs. Ultimate values. Spiritual Truth. I don't believe that our feelings are in our brains of course. I think there's a good deal to show this is true. Also, something I've noticed. Have you ever noticed that whenever you feel real deeply about somethings, like if you feel very strongly towards a girl of if you're in emotional pain it hurts right in your heart, I mean your physical heart.
Nope. I get mine in the gut. More assumptions.
That may be so, but that doesn't invalidate what I said. I know some people get it in the gut and in both sides of the chest but generally it's around that area. I think actually the heart thing I mentioned happens to everyone but may not remember. Different parts of our bodies feel differently under different emotions.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I find that interesting and I'm not saying the physical heart can feel, but I've thought about it and if there's a designer I think that would be the perfect place to make that connection you know? from the spiritual heart to the beating heart? we we think of the beating of the physical heart, it's very representative of what we recognize as our heart, our center of feeling and of sentient perception.
All subjective. I'd say the perfect places for love would be in the genitals or the fingers. It's just my view of the world.
You can't be serious. I'd like to hear this one, perhaps. As long as it's not dirty.
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
According to the Humanist Manifestos I & II: Humanism is a philosophical, religious, and moral point of view. The Humanist Manifestos declare:
I don't care what the definition of humanism is. You stated that atheists subscribe to humanism. A very blanket statement used so that you can further your points.
Humanism or atheism the point I made applies to both of them. But humanism is an organized religion. And don't say they're not, because they admit it themselves
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Logically, atheists have to provide a moral code from outside of their belief system which which can't provide any. Richard Dawkins even claimed that he was a passionate Darwinist as to how we got here, but a passionate anti-Darwinist when it came to morality.
Logically, atheists (or anybody, really) don't *have* to do anything. Each person is an individual. What does richard dawkins have to do with anyone else as a person? he's a famous atheist? Big deal, he doesn't speak for every atheist on the planet.
If people don't have to do anything then why do we feel it neccesary to have a government to keep things in order? And why in a democracy do they feel the need to have control over others to establish why they think is right? Obviously they are using they're pushing thier moral choice on others as Truth we're all accountable to , but when confronted then it's everybody's own choice and we all have different personal standards. Like I said, lots of people define love differently, but everyone (just about) believes in Love. Can anyone say they hate love??
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Also, some people may be immoral by my standard, but not by their own. So *logically*, nobody on the face of the earth is required to provide their moral code.
So then it's not wrong for them if they rob and murder you if they feel "justified"?
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Originally Posted by natureisawesome
Here's what can happen when angry and hurt people believe there is no standard of morality, that they can make their own rules:
Hardcore newbie:
I could throw up a link to the spanish inquisition and use that of my basis to describe anyone who is religious anyone believes in a higher power, and what they do when they think their morality is being guided by a higher power. it serves no purpose.
Wrong. Because the point is that the ideology they learned from the world taught them that that was ok . Christian doctrine doesn't teach people to do things like the spanish inquisition. Trust me, I hate the roman catholic church more than you do .
A path to faith with science
Jamstigator said:
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'Faith' is just a nicer word for 'assume'. If you have faith in something for which there is no evidence (e.g., something that can be replicated by others and produces consistent results), then you are just assuming that what you've been told (or what you feel) is the truth. Truth should never be assumed. Question everything, and demand evidence. This is how we stopped thinking that God makes meteor storms to punish the wicked or that women who can swim must be witches.
I wish you would realize that evidence is in the eye of the beholder. And the truth is I don't think that you need to assume anything to know that you're thinking.
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250 years ago, if they threw you in the river and you *didn't* drown, they burned you, because they had faith that this was God's will, to burn witches, and they had faith that you *were* a witch if you didn't drown, thus making burning the skin from your bones the 'right' and 'moral' thing to do. These are the roads down which faith takes people. Much of the world has outgrown such superstitious nonsense, but it is thriving in the U.S.
Once again, the religion is blamed for something it doesn't teach. But what about other ideologies/religions? I think yes.
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Faith in the Islamic model of life and of the afterlife is what drives virtually all the suicide bombings in the world today. They have faith that *their* beliefs are right and yours are wrong. You have faith that they're wrong and you're right. If everyone would just stop with the assumptions and start asking for demonstrable proof, violence would go way way down.
I think evolution is the main factor why there has been more war in this past century. I'm not sure, but I think there's been more war in this century than any in history. Is it the teachings of Jesus that caused hitler to adopt a master race ideology and the rest of it? How about Pol Pot? Or stalin? Or many others. It's evolution that's the foundation for these evil ideologies.
