LED grow lights... input please.

Hello all,

Iâ??m an electrical engineer working for Inda-Gro an Induction grow light manufacturer. Iâ??m a new poster to this site, but I thought it important to comment in areas of technical accuracy. I will refrain from promoting Inda-Gro products and focus only on the accuracy and importance of the post. Please feel free to ask any questions as appropriate.

First off, I would like to thank KNNA for the excellent postings; they are obviously well educated and versed in the subject manner. I wanted to address the stated issue that while the lamps may have a 100,000 hour life, the drivers do not. I disagree with this comment; if the drivers are properly designed for the application they should not have any issues with this stated life. Electronics generally are very reliable and have extremely long lives. If you look around your own homes Iâ??m sure you can find some items that are 10 to 20 years old and still work just fine. A sweeping statement that the driver in 95% of induction light systems will not meet the life requirements is inappropriate. First and most fundamental is that there is not nearly enough data to support this comment. How could it possibly be clear that 95% will not meet the life statement when there are not any systems that have been in place that long and there certainly have not been so many failures of existing units to base such a statement?

These products are relatively new to the market, so any failures we are seeing have to be associated with quality and design issues. This is basically the same thing the LED lighting industry went through in the beginning. There are several manufacturers of these products, so you cannot blame the entire industry for what is likely a problem with just a few. Knowing this, it is important to deal with a company that has a strong presence in your country. No product is perfect, failures will happen, thatâ??s just life, the difference is there someone to stand behind the product and take care of you in a timely fashion. Sending the product back to China for repair does not qualify, the country distributor/dealer/manufacturer needs to take care of you as locally as possible.

Have there been horror stories, Iâ??m sure there have, Iâ??ve heard some. One of our customers purchased an induction light from another manufacturer, the lamp was broken in shipping, both the dealer and the manufacturer refused to help the customer leaving him with a broken lamp that he could not use or repair. Here are my recommendations on this topic:

1. Do not purchase from a Chinese/Hong Kong drop shipper. They simply are not available to support you.
2. When purchasing from an in country dealer/manufacturer, make sure they are available to support the product. Ask about their warranty policies and the likely turnaround time of a repair.
3. Avoid products priced significantly less than similar competing products. There are reasons they are able to sell them cheaper and most of them are not good. That old adage â??you get what you pay forâ?� seems to hold pretty well.

I would like to comment on the general subject of electronics reliability and life since I have a lot of experience in this area. I have worked on NASA, DOD, Nuclear, and life support medical equipment, all of these requiring the highest degree of reliability.

One of differences today is the wide use of switching power supplies. Switching power supplies currently are the basis for nearly all of lighting industry drivers. Induction, LED, Metal Halide, and HPS electronic drivers are all based on a switching power supply. Switch power supplies have been around for a long time, their main advantage is that they are very efficient, 90 to 95%, where a typical linear power supply is only about 50% efficient. The reason switchers were not adopted earlier, is that they had poor reliability. They are very dynamic, switching at relatively high frequencies, constantly swinging voltage. As with all technologies, they evolve and improve with time, designs are fine-tuned and electronic component reliability has improved as manufacturing process have improved. Today a properly designed switching power supply has an acceptable reliability and life. The problem is that do to the dynamic nature, any design flaw or compromised component will likely show themselves fairly quickly.

Currently the biggest issue with switching power supplies is the quality of design, components, and manufacturing. We all know that nearly all of this type of manufacturing is currently done in China; we also know that there is a lot of variance in the quality of manufacturers. There are some very good manufacturers, but unfortunately there are some bad that just want to ride on the coat tails of those whom have already done the work. They just want to sell inferior product at cheap prices, often dropped shipped from Hong Kong or via a local dealer/distributor with the same compromised integrity. With these manufacturers and dealers you have a higher probability of product problems and in all likelihood you will have issues with the manufacturer or dealer resolving it. The bottom line is that you need to know who you are dealing with.

A little over my head but thanks for your post and welcome to the site.

you have a schedule on your website Inda-GROthat shows lumen depreciation over a variety of lamps with what appears to be a pretty obvious benefit of the induction lamp maintaining much longer life spans but more importantly at a relatively high average lumen output compared to other lamp types. are we really talking lamps that last that long?

By your data I was pretty surprised to see how fast all lamps will depreciate but wow do the metal halide fall off fast and I've spent more then a small fortune on re-lamps over the years. :rastasmoke:

On another note; have you or possibly anyone else here heard of these new LED's that are organic? They're being called OLED lamps as a solution to the HBLED lamps being too concentrated light output.

From what I understand they are being coated with a phosphor or polymer to better manage the optical distribution to better diffuse the light and resemble a fluorescent lamp while maintaining color stability in the process.

I realize this isn't an induction lighting question but then again it appears that if the OLED develops as an option which would completely eliminate the need for any lamp that requires inert gas mixes and Mercury to operate you would be interested in the science behind it.

If LED mfgs develop OLED lamps that will outperform other technologies then it creates greater acceptance in the marketplace especially of the price points come down as can be expected (Haitz's Law) and the new color quality scale (CQS) is adopted as an updated standard for weighting the hue and saturation levels of any lamp we consider buying.

Any ideas when the market may be seeing these OLED lamps at competitive prices?

"Any ideas when the market may be seeing these OLED lamps at competitive prices? "

Not any time soon. Blue OLEDs have a degradation problem, and the overall lifetime on an organic-based light source is rather poor at the moment. On the same note, output is quite limited.

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Originally Posted by khyberkitsune

"Any ideas when the market may be seeing these OLED lamps at competitive prices? "

Not any time soon. Blue OLEDs have a degradation problem, and the overall lifetime on an organic-based light source is rather poor at the moment. On the same note, output is quite limited.

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Are you referring to lumen output or production being limited? Is it fair to say that the main advantages of these newer OLED lamps will be better diffusion and greater color stability of hue and saturation as the market adoption of these type lamps would presumably be more favorable to these improvements. What are your thoughts? Is there any benefit to growers?

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Originally Posted by brynpav

Are you referring to lumen output or production being limited? Is it fair to say that the main advantages of these newer OLED lamps will be better diffusion and greater color stability of hue and saturation as the market adoption of these type lamps would presumably be more favorable to these improvements. What are your thoughts? Is there any benefit to growers?

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I am referring to the overall radiometric output of the OLED itself. It is not intense enough, and such tiny LEDs will not be bright enough for our purposes, not anytime in the near or foreseeable future.

Diffusion is not what we want. Photon flux is a ray, and you want more of them packed together, not more of them spread out. This is what we measure, the photon flux density. The more spread out it is, the smaller a plant we are able to grow as we cannot push enough light intensity far enough.

The whole reason for OLED is as an LCD screen replacement, nothing more, really. Lower power requirements plus a very tiny form factor (and dot pitch) makes it ideal for displays of all shapes, sizes, and resolutions.

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Originally Posted by khyberkitsune

"any grower having compared yields between the most advanced LED and the simple HPS will attest to the compromise in yields"

Which is to say, EXACTLY NOTHING.

Those other 'tests' are done by non-scientific, non-professional garage growers that are using a mass-produced copy of outdated 90s LED research.

Grams per kilowatt-hour, LED wins all day every day, across every crop ever tested in a truly professional and scientific setup.

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I can attest to this! ;) Even tho I'm an unscientific "Garage grower" (well basement, but what ever ;) )


I'm doing a side by side HPS LED flower totally separate environments, both same strain, started at the same time.

Sure my HPS is going to give me a higher overall yield (Even tho I f'd up and double dosed that plant with nutes resulting in a lockout that she's still recovering from)

But the G/KWH into each grow, the LED (120w) is going to SMOKE the HPS! (600w)

Plus there does seem to be a slight difference in quality....... The strain is Blueberry, and every one I've pulled under the HPS has been sweet smelling, slightly citrus, with just a "hint" of skunky....... Under the LED when you put your snoot right in the bud it smells like a bowl full of berrys! :eek: :cool: :pimp: I can't wait for the smoke off of this experiment.

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Originally Posted by brynpav

A little over my head but thanks for your post and welcome to the site.

you have a schedule on your website Inda-GROthat shows lumen depreciation over a variety of lamps with what appears to be a pretty obvious benefit of the induction lamp maintaining much longer life spans but more importantly at a relatively high average lumen output compared to other lamp types. are we really talking lamps that last that long?

By your data I was pretty surprised to see how fast all lamps will depreciate but wow do the metal halide fall off fast and I've spent more then a small fortune on re-lamps over the years. :rastasmoke:

On another note; have you or possibly anyone else here heard of these new LED's that are organic? They're being called OLED lamps as a solution to the HBLED lamps being too concentrated light output.

From what I understand they are being coated with a phosphor or polymer to better manage the optical distribution to better diffuse the light and resemble a fluorescent lamp while maintaining color stability in the process.

I realize this isn't an induction lighting question but then again it appears that if the OLED develops as an option which would completely eliminate the need for any lamp that requires inert gas mixes and Mercury to operate you would be interested in the science behind it.

If LED mfgs develop OLED lamps that will outperform other technologies then it creates greater acceptance in the marketplace especially of the price points come down as can be expected (Haitz's Law) and the new color quality scale (CQS) is adopted as an updated standard for weighting the hue and saturation levels of any lamp we consider buying.

Any ideas when the market may be seeing these OLED lamps at competitive prices?

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Hi Brynpav

A little slow getting back to this forum so forgive me any delays as I've been pretty slammed.

I'll respond in the order you've questioned. The lumen deprecation schedule we provided does make a pretty good case for the average lumen output of these lights being above 90% until the 70,000 hour mark whereby it then will gradually fall to the 70% mark at around a 100,000 hours.

As to the OLED question I have some opinions of this technology but would differ to khyberkitsune who looks to have a deeper background in LED/OLED development. However there does appear to be a field of research devoted to seeing the OLED lamps used in high output area lighting applications.

I would refer you to a recent article in the October 2010 EC&M, that discusses the high output advantages of OLED technology which may someday be of some interest to the botanical market but it's certainly way to early to tell what if any those applications may be.

Thank you for your comments.

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First off, I would like to thank KNNA for the excellent postings; they are obviously well educated and versed in the subject manner. I wanted to address the stated issue that while the lamps may have a 100,000 hour life, the drivers do not. I disagree with this comment; if the drivers are properly designed for the application they should not have any issues with this stated life. Electronics generally are very reliable and have extremely long lives. If you look around your own homes Iâ??m sure you can find some items that are 10 to 20 years old and still work just fine. A sweeping statement that the driver in 95% of induction light systems will not meet the life requirements is inappropriate. First and most fundamental is that there is not nearly enough data to support this comment. How could it possibly be clear that 95% will not meet the life statement when there are not any systems that have been in place that long and there certainly have not been so many failures of existing units to base such a statement?

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I do not work with induction lights, so I would like to be drastic about their technical performance. I depend on this of what engineers working in the field tell me, not of first hand experience.

For what I understood, induction ballast problem is not due to converting AC input to energy used by the induction unit. This is managed by many electronic converters today at very high efficiencies. For long lives, only when spending on it, most Power Supplies expected life strongly depends of operating temperatures. When working on hot environments, as usually ballast on induction lights do, if you dont use expensive components, likely average life is well below 50Kh, often just 20Kh.

So PS life is strongly dependent of components used, and as far as I know, no any horticultural lamp in the market uses high quality, hot temperature rated components. Although technically possible, I have solid doubts any induction light on sale currently for the horticultural market use a PS with an actual expected life over 50Kh. Just a guess, but I believe that actually, majority of them are way shorter.

The main problem for induction lights, for what those working on them told me, is the low coupling efficency of coils used on the own induction process. Very low, with very high losses, minimal 25%. This seems to be the main problem and what lead to the big manufacturers to give up with this technology and follow other research paths. Those losses mean lots of heat, and heat is always a problem for reliability.

I agree with you that properly designed and built induction lamps may have its place and could be an excellent solutions for many cases. But market push for lower prices hard, and in this situation is not easy to offer it. Usually you get what you paid for, and I think most people are not willing to pay what a good designed and build with high quality components induction lamp cost

We could easily fix induction lighting losses if we could find a proper diamagnetic back shield and design a linear induction tube with waveguides built into the glass.

The ballast, on the other hand, yes that's not happening any time soon. Cheap market is most definitely the reason for this.

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Originally Posted by ledlightsliving

LED Grow Lights(include UFO Grow light, Panel grow light, Plant grow tube) from 7w up to 1200w of power that are perfect for growing lights.

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*SMACK* BAD BOY! NO ADVERTISING ON THE FLOOR!

Aren't you housebroken???

im trying to part out two arrays with the best ppfd per watt for one with 12000k, 425 nm 440nm and one with 630nm and 660 nm. I don't know anything about heat sinks needed per diode or how to run them for maximum life while still getting a total of 1500ppfd on a 2.5x3 cabinet scrog. looking for bud depth layer (not starkly pruned below) of 2-2.5 to feet. I think a combination of lenses 90 and 60 degree would be good but I have no idea.

You can get a great deal on LED grow lights at
http:growlightsbyallled.com

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Originally Posted by clongo

im trying to part out two arrays with the best ppfd per watt for one with 12000k, 425 nm 440nm and one with 630nm and 660 nm. I don't know anything about heat sinks needed per diode or how to run them for maximum life while still getting a total of 1500ppfd on a 2.5x3 cabinet scrog. looking for bud depth layer (not starkly pruned below) of 2-2.5 to feet. I think a combination of lenses 90 and 60 degree would be good but I have no idea.

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You're not telling us where you want that 1500 PPFD. How far away from the light do you want that sort of intensity? A good new 1,000w HPS will put that out about 2-3 feet away, which means 1-1.5 feet from the bulb you're hitting bleaching levels of photons.

Hey guys,
I am becoming a big fan of LED lighting.
I have started my first ever LED grow log.
You can find it on here or on my word.press page. I update both together.
I am using a Pro-Grow 260 and 4 x 20w CFL. The CFL are just for heat purposes.
Have a look and let me know what you think. Hopefully the bloom will go ok. I hope so.

Here it is: LED LOGGER

You can find it here under LED grow log testing the Pro-Grow 260

I hope you enjoy it. I will be blooming in just 5 days from now.

Ill give the plants 36 hours of darkness to kick start them into the phase.

Let me know what you think.

Take care.

Hi all, long time reader but first time poster. First of all thanks to all the regular poster, weezard, oldmac, headshake etcâ?¦I have just spent the last week looking over this thread and others. For some time I have been an outdoor grower but due to changing living arrangements this is no long practical so Iâ??ve decided to make the move inside. My major concern with indoor growing is the substantial amount of power required, particularly when I have worked hard to minimise power draw elsewhere in the house; which has lead me to the idea of using LEDâ??s. I was hoping to do a little thinking out loud and hope some of the experts can offer some advice bearing in mind this is just the beginning of a long learning curve for meâ?¦Thanks in advance!What Iâ??m hoping to do is connect a 200-300watt solar panel to set of deep cycle marine batteries. These batteries will be charged with a Hybrid MPPT Controller that can provide charging via AC when the sun isnâ??t shinning.

From these batteries I hope to run a DIY LED light that I hope to learn to make in the coming months. One of the greatest struggle has been trying to determine the best ratio of red:blue from many different sources. The diodes Iâ??m thinking of running are:
RED: 625nm
660nm
720nm (Possibly?)

BLUE: 460nm
400nm

I hope to have these lights running on dimmers so I can use the same light for veg and flowering and the total power use to be around 150-200W. What ratios would the experts recommend, 7:1 Veg 1:4 Flowering? Also I hear many different recommendations for diode wattage some say 1w is better others 3w others 15watt. Iâ??m currently leaning towards the 15watt Weezard approach.
Once iv decided on wattage I can work on sourcing a heatsink, some PC fans with temp sensor and some drivers. While researching drivers I came across an article on instructables that provides a guide to making a constant current source for powering LEDâ??sâ?¦What do you think (just realised turmoil had the same idea? Its all jibberish to me at the moment but I hope to brush up on my electronics theory in the near future.

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Originally Posted by turmoil

I was looking around the web and found two 'instructables' regarding wiring up high powered LEDs thought you guys would be interested.

Circuits for high powered LEDS

:jointsmile:

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I apologise for the long winded approach, iv been smoking and thinking about the idea too much and needed to put the sloshing around quires and ideas on paper. Thanks for taking the time and happy growing ;)

I have a buncha LED bulbs at my house for general lighting. most of them i ordered from dealextreme.com or meritline.com big purverors of china manufactured products. just search "led bulb" on either site. I cant even grow a front lawn, by no means do I have a green thumb but i see issues with LEDs because

A - they are COLD, they dont seem to generate any heat at all, and if i recall correctly plants need heat (unless there is another heat source, but in nature the light source is the heat source)

B - Manufacturing consistency. I have ordered lights in groups and individually, it dosen't seem to matter. I can tell different "batches" make different light

my 2c - maybe worth less :)

I guess what you did not realize is NASA actually uses LED's on the space station for all horticulture experiments.

I just bought two blackstar 240's completely on accident.. so, hopefully once I can, I'll have a pretty interesting grow log.. coupled with my other 240 flowering. I know they are not the best, but 300 some watts of pure led light is going to make something happen growth-wise regardless

About to purchase my second set of led ...........
works great love them they supplement my 8khid/hps nothing compares.....
LIGHT EQUALS MASS PERIOD.......
choosing higher quality units looking for 240..... voltage ...

hell i figure my growing my own medication has gone to far......way to much money...new post.....

Thw word is convenience. You should pick up the things which is comaptible with your test.

Led IS the way forwards :thumbsup:! But with out a doubt is there not enough penetration:mad: , undergrowth just doesn't get enough , you would have to have LEDs for all angles to get some REAL results. $$$$$$$$$$ :wtf:

To Psyz;

Having made a lighting system of roughly the power you're considering, I thought you might like to know what I found to be the most difficult part of the design, which is cooling.

A normal metal vapour lamp may produce more heat than an LED with the same number of optical watts in the PAR areas, but a metal vapour lamp can also withstand a lot more heat. A glass bulb can hit a couple of hundred degrees C without a problem, but an LED will start to lose brightness, efficiency and have a decreased lifetime if run at 60 or more.

I believe this is probably the part most people get wrong.

The biggest module I used was 50W, as a 7x7 grid of chips covered in silicone and mounted on a metal plate. I found two ways to keep the die temperature low enough. One is a cpu heatsink and fan (made of 5mm copper plate and 30 densely packed 1mm thick copper fins) which was designed to cool a 120w cpu. I ran the 12v fan fan at 7.5v as the heatsink was a little too big, so the noise level was better than full speed. The other was a natural convection heatsink (no fan) made of extruded aluminium with widely spaced fins. It measured about 20x15x5 cm. In both cases the led modules were stuck on with thermal epoxy. Small bolts, spring clips and thermal silicone grease would also work if you want them removable.

If you are a decent plumber, and have the tools and inclination, soldering (very) flat copper plates onto square tube and running a convection loop full of water and anti corrosion fluid to an external (car?) radiator would also work well if people's water cooled pc projects are anything to go by.

The bottom line is that LEDs need as much or more cooling per watt as CPUs do, because they need to run cooler to get full benefit from them.

As far as the cost, electricity usage and so on, it depends partly on where you live. All of the waste energy from the lights is heat, so if you're in a cold climate the lights' waste can be taken off the cost of your heating bill (notwithstanding the difference in price between electricity and gas), as long as the lights' coolant air (or liquid) is separate from the enclosure where the smells are.

The circuit is not one I'd recommend. It won't be very efficient, as evidenced by the large (in relation to lamp wattage) resistor. That component is to turn "spare" electricity into heat. It would be better to use a switching regulator, although I haven't looked at what dc-dc circuits and parts are available. Even the crude hack of plugging in an inverter and running mains voltage LED power packs would probably be more efficient than a linear (big resistor) regulator in many situations.

Chances are there's an ideal solution where you get LEDs in modules at voltages of multiples of minimum battery current and then use a constant current dc-dc converter with variable duty cycle pulse width modulation and solid state components.

Regarding the red/blue ratio, the figures I calculated by comparing the absorption spectra of the known light-sensitive compounds to the surface sunlight spectrum are as follows;


1 part uv
5 parts blue (439 469)
30 parts red (642)
4 parts deep red (667)
1 part infra red (735)

The wavelengths are usually rounded to the nearest 5, so the options I saw at the time were; 365nm uv, 455nm blue, 640nm red 660nm deep red 735nm infra red.

There is a problem though, because these figures are for optical watts, not electrical watts. For a complete calculation you also need the % efficiency of that wavelength and brand of LED (yep, they're all different) to work out how many electrical watts you need for each optical watt. If you're ordering cheap ones from china it's partly guesswork.

As far as the colour balance at different points in the light cycle, it may make a difference, but I've seen no evidence of that (I invite references to any material which shows otherwise). I'd suggest the best way to achieve a change in ratio is to wired up the difference between the 'seasons' as separate circuits and switch one set off and on to vary. Making the whole lot dimmable seems like more complexity and inefficiency than it's worth.

One more thing, as far as I could tell, most researchers don't believe we know every frequency plants use. The methods used to discover what frequencies are absorbed by what substance, and whether the substance is altered by that absorption, are not precise enough to detect the light spectrum equivalent of 'micronutrients'. It is entirely possible that some obscure frequency is liked by plants as a fraction too small for us to yet detect. Therefore I have assumed in previous experiments it is sensible to mix in some broad spectrum whites, such as the daylight coloured ones with yellow phosphor on a blue chip.

"The circuit is not one I'd recommend. It won't be very efficient, as evidenced by the large (in relation to lamp wattage) resistor. That component is to turn "spare" electricity into heat."

Don't be misled by the resistor wattage.
That is a "sense" resistor, and it's less than half an ohm.

That component is used to create a voltage drop.
V. = I. x R.
0.47 Ω at 2A. = 0.94V.

It is a tad oversized to limit it's heating.
Heat increases resistance.

That voltage drop is applied to the sense lead of a voltage regulator.
But, because the sense voltage tracks the current, we have tricked a cheap voltage regulator into performing current regulation.

In short, very little power is wasted in that resistor.
Less than 2 Watts at 2 Amps
P = I. x V.
2.0A. x 0.94V. = 1.88W.
This regulator circuit works very well with battery power.

Just a couple 'lectronic pennies.

Aloha,
Weezard

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Originally Posted by Weezard

In short, very little power is wasted in that resistor.

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2 Watts wastage seems acceptable, the more leds you had on it the less significant that would be.

Now I look at the article properly I can see there are various different circuits described, the first being more in the way of an introductory "what not to do". Mainly I was just prejudiced by the unusually large resistor, should have read the whole thing first.

The second to last configuration reminds me of something I used to drive the backlight leds on a phone screen.

Very interesting, despite unfair first impression.

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Originally Posted by khyberkitsune

I used to have an HTG LED panel - I threw it away. Worst waste of $250 ever.

It's no wonder they're selling it for just barely over 100 bucks - it's garbage.

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hi so what kind of light do you use currently?

i have dumb quetion. . .(idk anything about lamps)

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940nm, 850nm, 660nm, 630nm, 610nm, 590nm
570nm, 530nm, 510nm, 470nm, 460nm, 400nm

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what is nm ???is that size of the LED lamp?

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for good growing you need blue, red and deep red spectrum.

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whats differences between normal led and full spectrum led?
can i just use normal LED Lights?

So the most recent post dates back to 8/2012 - Where is current LED technology as it relates to MJ growth? Any recommendations?

PPP-Dragon

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Originally Posted by MG.Snake

i have dumb quetion. . .(idk anything about lamps)


what is nm ???is that size of the LED lamp?

No, it's the wavelength of the light they emit.
Read.


whats differences between normal led and full spectrum led?
can i just use normal LED Lights?

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Um, partial spectrum/full spectrum and you are correct, these questions do border on dumb.
Please read.

Your last question is well answered right here, all you need do, is read it, yah?

Aloha and good luck,
Weezard

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Originally Posted by PuffPuffPassDragon

So the most recent post dates back to 8/2012 - Where is current LED technology as it relates to MJ growth? Any recommendations?

PPP-Dragon

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Sorry brah, dunno.

Once the hucksters arrived with the band wars, missing chords, super high-res dahoozit, horse exhaust, I moved on.
Already had a light that worked very well so the rest is marketing hype.
Still have that light, still working well!

Who has time for hype?

I'd say, look for a quality built, bi-chroic , array with at least one of the colors adjustable.
Grows great buds.

Aloha,
Weeze

Weezard,

I can't find a dimmable Blue or Red LED array. I am thinking I may have to get 2 different LED banks (1 for veg [blue], 1 for flower[red]). I've read poor reviews for Dorm Lights G8. decent reviews re: Kind. Who is is out there in the LED Grow light world for MMJ/MJ?

PPP~Dragon

Left you a rep comment in the other thread.

The last decent commercial light that I saw, was made by Lumigrow.
Can't pimp it, because I haven't used it.
But reviews and side by sides are very good.
And they are still around!

If I was in the market, and had any cash, it's the one I'd try.
I do endorse the science of it

Aloha.
Wee

Weezard,

Roger that, I will research Lumigrow.

PPP~Dragon

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Originally Posted by Weezard

Left you a rep comment in the other thread.

The last decent commercial light that I saw, was made by Lumigrow.
Can't pimp it, because I haven't used it.
But reviews and side by sides are very good.
And they are still around!

If I was in the market, and had any cash, it's the one I'd try.
I do endorse the science of it

Aloha.
Wee

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Weezard,

Roger that, I will research Lumigrow.

So Lumigrow has the Pro 325 and the 650. So what area do you think the 325 could effectively grow? 650?

PPP~Dragon

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Originally Posted by Weezard

Left you a rep comment in the other thread.

The last decent commercial light that I saw, was made by Lumigrow.
Can't pimp it, because I haven't used it.
But reviews and side by sides are very good.
And they are still around!

If I was in the market, and had any cash, it's the one I'd try.
I do endorse the science of it

Aloha.
Wee

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