Please help! Droopy Plants

Well, I am with ya on the point of diminishing returns by trying to max/tweak everything til ya drive yerself nuts. I pH to 5.8, and thats it. I dont care if its week 3, week 5, wahtever. I mean if I miss out on 4 grams a plant, I am still going to sleep the same. I was going to install C02, but decided not to. I run at about 1200 ppm during peak, and I do not push further. I know my plants, and I get excellent results, another 200 ppm is going to 1) burn plants and piss me off 2) maybe give me an extra 4-6 grams a plant.....BFD

And, I am with ya on lighting. I love lights/watts per sq ft. My aero's take up 32 sq ft. Hanging above them is 3 600 watt daisy chained Cool Breeze's/digital ballast and Grolux bulbs. Still praying for the day Hortilux gets added to the compatibility list. ANd I get some real heavy fat buds. Again, I miss out on a few grams.......BFD

ANOTHER thing I am very much a firm believer in is adequate/efficent ventilation, Most you see here got a boner to get a grow going and dont have the foggiest idea about fresh air. My belief is before they ever worry about buying seeds, MH, HPS, Pots, soil, nutes, timers, etc etc etc is to worry about proper ventilation.

To be honest I am not sure I have EVER seen a new grower ask how to set up ventilation in the Basic's or Indoor Section, hell even in here for that matter. "My seeds sprouted, now what"........

I've tried to help a few with ventilation and installing properly, but they are more concerned on feeding their 3 day old plant 9 different nutes. So, I learned to keep my mouth shut about it and just keep on keepin on.

More fresh air in than stale skunky (wonderful smell) air you remove. Thats it, gets no simpler. And DO NOT create negative air pressure (suction)......thats a no-no fer sure. ANd once you get that fresh air in there, keep it moving around. I use wall mounted 16" oscillating fans. I built these neat hanger things that allow me to raise fans as plant grows to keep them blowing between plant canopy and my lights.

I have a 10" Vortex bringing in air thru a housing I built that holds 2 Hepa FIlters, then I have an 8" Vortex suckin air thru carbon filter and exhausting into attic. My plants grow so green and lush that at times they look artificial.


When I tell you this, you are going to think I am nuts, but I am lucky to smoke a d00b a week, if that. I grow the shit to give away and to kill my time. All my friends are stoners from back in our day, and I keep everyone supplied very well. Hell I got two cases of quart jars, and there aint tomato's in em sittin in the basement cured. And when I say friends, I am talking about mid to late 40's folks. Folks who know how to keep yap shut and enjoy what they get for free types.

This is a hobby for me, and thats all it is. I would NEVER sell one gram to ANYONE. I dont need to sell it either. Gave my two boys my business 2 years ago, and I hung it up at 45. I still work/consult on as needed basis. Always loved my veggie garden and gardening in general, so I started reading up on this and it sparked an interst, so here I am.

I am probably one of the few you will ever see on this board that grew for the first time in hydro. I have never grown a plant in soil. Keep mothers in Coco.

I came here and a few other sites plus googled til the wee hours of the morning for about 6-7 months before I cracked a seed. I said to self "self if others can grow in hydro, you most certainly can grow in hydro, too"............LOL

After this crop I am going to stop til fall I think. Longer days, outside garden, lawn care, BBQ's, etc commin up. And I certainly will not run out:D :D I have a 24'x36' pavilion I built in my yard (11 acres) that we party and BBQ in. Thats the home of my Southern Yankee 6' smoker. Love to meet up with some of you guys some day and throw a big ole BBQ for all of us. I got about 2 or so weeks to harvest, so I believe this is it for now.

And 'Hound, I'll share my notes with ya, but if you take generator, you gotta take old lady, too. See, its a package deal type thing............LMAO I kid about her bitchin an all, but she is a sweetheart. She thinks I'm nuts and do goofy things, but after 23 years shes used to it.

BTW, dont worry, I'll be in daily to see whats up and offer any help that I can. I am not running off and joining the circus, just going to be doing other things with my time for now. WIll keep my mothers going and then next fall I can root clones and be right back in the action.

Well, gorgeous day here, think I am going to get Harley out and take a ride to my favorite watering hole and have a few cold ones.

Keep em green guys,
b0nger

First of all....I want to be in on the freebies. :D I'm much more of the "set it and forget it" type with ph too. And Bonger I completely agree that you MAY get an extra few grams with all the tweaking but is that really worth the whole crop? I personally always think it is until I've doe something crazy and have to go back and do damage control. Then the next cool thing or idea comes along and I'm off.....

I actually went to hydro because I failed MISERABLY in soil.....won't go there but suffice to say to say out of 80 plants I had about 20 live.....and about 6 females that made it to harvest. I went to hydro in great fear because I had heard it was harder....and it's a weed....and I couldn't even get a weed to grow in soil....but I was very desperate. Below I included a pic of my very first grow (the one where I actually followed directions.....my next grows were all "improvements" thank you ) and was absolutely BLOWN AWAY by the results. Have been hooked ever since.

There are some things I have done simply because my hydro guy told me to do them a certain way and I think my hydro guy walks on water. Ventilation was NOT one of them and I had to go around in several circles before finally taking his advice on that but I completely agree. I have several windows to the room so my plants do get fresh air constantly and with the oscillating fan they grow great stems as well. (Strangely....I did quite a few circles over the RO water thing as well....go figure :) )

Anyway, ASD update on your plants when you have a chance and let us know how Eve is doing after......well, you know. :D

First of all....I want to be in on the freebies. :D I'm much more of the "set it and forget it" type with ph too. And Bonger I completely agree that you MAY get an extra few grams with all the tweaking but is that really worth the whole crop? I personally always think it is until I've done something crazy and have to go back and do damage control. Then the next cool thing or idea comes along and I'm off.....

I actually went to hydro because I failed MISERABLY in soil.....won't go there but suffice to say to say out of 80 plants I had about 20 live.....and about 6 females that made it to harvest. I went to hydro in great fear because I had heard it was harder....and it's a weed....and I couldn't even get a weed to grow in soil....but I was very desperate. Below I included a pic of my very first grow (the one where I actually followed directions.....my next grows were all "improvements" thank you ) and was absolutely BLOWN AWAY by the results. Have been hooked ever since.

There are some things I have done simply because my hydro guy told me to do them a certain way and I think my hydro guy walks on water. Ventilation was NOT one of them and I had to go around in several circles before finally taking his advice on that but I completely agree. I have several windows to the room so my plants do get fresh air constantly and with the oscillating fan they grow great stems as well. (Strangely....I did quite a few circles over the RO water thing as well....go figure :) )

Anyway, ASD update on your plants when you have a chance and let us know how Eve is doing after......well, you know. :D

Ventilation rules........END OF MY STORY about that.

Ever get east of the Missippi, gimme a shout, you might even be there now, hell I dont know. I am in the Mid Atlantic area of the good ole U.S. of A. Love to burn one, toss back a few cold ones, and char some flesh on the smoker.

Well, I dicked with tap water, but mine was only 80 ppm (2 grains) hard I think was the number. Then I thought, I am going to get R.O. system and install when I put laundry sink in grow room. To be honest, I see no difference outside of the fact that I gotta add Cal-Mag back to it.

We sound like two lazy phucks. Dial em in, set and forget, and keep it simple. Afterall this stuff is a weed. Its damn near impossible to kill in all honesty. I mean you gotta work at it to kill it. I simply follow my previous grows to the letter and have no worries. Leaf tips aint fryin, shit aint droopin over like its on its last leg, etc.

As i said before, 4-6-10 grams difference per grow means about as much to me as the price of snake oil in Saudi Arabia. I drop in room most nghts around 6:30 or so, everything is lookin good and outside of a weekly rez change, its that simple. Sometimes I even go two weeks on a rez change. I know they preach weekly change and all that, but I am not really sold on that either.

I hang out and watch TV, surf net in the room sometimes til 11 or so, make sure all my equipment is still on cycle and thats about it.

This pH up a little, pH down a little, add another 100 ppm, blah blah blah.........It aint me. Again, how much do you actually gain? Maybe if this was a cash crop deal with me I might worry about it. Even then, I doubt I would.

My overall philosophy is as follows; Keep it simple. Give your plants hells of fresh air, keep a stable pH, and dont fry/shock the livin piss outta them with 100-200ppm extra nutes. I am convinced they remain much healthier, have zero shock factor to overcome, and all in all produce a better finished product. ANyone who wants to call me on this, feel free. But dont be offended when I say what you offer is bullshit........

My wheel is perfectly round, I am not about to try to reinvent it.

Keep em green,
b0nger

ASD......I am still pondering the pH thing. I'll get back with you on that one. I have some theories, but I am not sure whats correct at the moment. I need to do some more research before I put in my two cents.

yer both right...After upping the nutes so much I don't really see much difference...I certainly don't notice the plants growing faster but the color green looks a bit better...I think just seeing what the chart says on ph would make the calculation easier but at this point all I really have to do is drop in a touch here and there so even that isn't the big deal...I was just wondering how the plants sucked out an extra 750ppm from the rest of res after only drinking a gallon...probably has something to do with osmotic pressure but when I find something accurate I'll pass it along

Since I only have a 400w hps for flower...I can't imagine I'm gonna get all that much yield...I'm skeptical about 2 z's cured at this point I'd really like to get more but I'm sure experience will increase that in time...

I'm still putting the room together and was planning on forced out venting with a passive intake but if you are sure that's bad I'll make sure to avoid it...I'll hold off on hooking up the vents till I hear some tips...the room is 12x12x(7ish high) I'm gonna split half for the flower and the other half will be seedling/veg I planned to just force vent out the flower room and passively intake through the veg side...for right now the basement is open with 2 fans blowing air around...I have several ideas on circulation and once I'm done getting the walls finished I'll start with the questions hehe...part of the problem is definately temp...it's cold as hell here most of the year so intaking cold air from outside leaves the room below 50 even with the light on :wtf: a bigger light will cure that issue right up I'm sure atleast during the day but the evening will still be a bit of a prob

Eve and Zola definately were pissed off about being dehydrated...most of the leaves lifted themselves back up already but (the top set of each cola were still droopy at light off) I'll check tomorow morning...

I realize so many mistakes from when I first started but improvements are steady...I'm looking into building the rest of the hydro systems...I have enough plumbing experience that the pvc shouldn't be too tough...knowing how to rate the pump pressure at each nozzle might be a bit of a pain but if I keep it symetrical?sp? it should be fine...I'm debating on how involved I want the setup to be...but I know the store bought systems are way to expensive and they all look like the root chambers are on the small side...

My camera does appear to be shot...it started working again for a while but it might just be time to toss...it's sad cause it's got kickass optics guess the last resort is calling HP

I'm almost half way through flower but I'm thinking maybe I should hold off on the koolbloom because the bud is just starting to form...hopefully the plants aren't going to just finish with like 10 baby bud sites instead of growing some more...Does stressing a plant significantly cause it to finish early? I'm hopeful it can't be that bad cause there's nothing really to finish yet ;-)

I'm off to bed for now but as always thanks for keeping me grounded...and I'll try my best not to snap any main colas or electricute myself in a res I'd just cry at this point if I ruined one completely...

Interesting point I learned from my "hydro Jesus" about lighting. He feels very strongly that lighting (talking HID here) is pretty much determined by room spacing and not the plants themselves. IOW...a 250w will cover 2 x 2 feet and produce approximately X amount of usable lumens in said space. The amount of plants in that space is not as iimportant as the amount of space per light. Example: 1 plant under a thousand watt light will (correctly grown and harvested) produce roughly the SAME AMOUNT of bud as 5 plants in the same space. The five plants will probably produce 2 oz apiece instead of all 10 on the same plant. Does how I am putting this make sense?

What i am really trying to say I think is don't sneer at your 400w light....if you are using it to cover a 4 x 4 or so space then it is all you need and the most light recommended for the amount of growing area you have. Plants can only uptake so much anyway. But your plans for a 6 x 6 flowering section....you'll need more lighting to get the best effect.

BTW I said this in a thread in the grow lounge but FYI I just bought a new book called Marijuana Botany and it is REALLY good....no hydro information but great (and easy to understand....even for me) info on the plant itself, how it grows, flowers etc....may want to look into it.

Bonger I had HORRIBLE ph problems with my well water. The ph would rise no matter what.....I don't care WHAT you did to it. The most stubborn water I have ever seen. RO solved the problem for me 100% ;)

Just checked on them again and Zola is running away with it as far as bud production...Eve (3ft tall) has probably 3-4 times the plant mass of Zola (2ft tall) but Zola has much more bud showing at this point...is it normal for smaller plants to produce the bud quicker and finish early(at the current rate it looks like the difference might be drastic...Or is it more based on the genetics of each plant as far as how much/fast bud will be produced regardless of size? The light is further away from Zola too so I'm not really sure why it's goin so fast

Besides the heat burn that Eve got from the light when I was moving them around both are back to normal...the leaves have all picked up and Eve's top cola leaves seem to point straight up at the light

I'll update with a couple pics tonight although the camera isn't as good as my hp hopefully it'll be clear enough to see some difference

I agree with what yer sayin on the lighting stuff hound...I'd say the best would be to get the same light meter reading all over the room but unless you have sunlight I doubt all the effort spent on doing so would be justified by the return...I definately want to get 4 of the same clone growing in each corner (if nothing else they should grow about the same rate) of the aero tank if I use that same one for the next flower...I'd have to assume more smaller plants would eek out one larger plant just because more bud sites right at the light but I don't think the difference would be significant...

The main problem I have at this point is that Eve is so much taller...I have the light angled at almost a 45 toward the mylar covered corner in hopes to keep as much light directed through both plants as possible but I guess it's not that big a deal cause they seem to be growing fine without much stretch

The roots are getting pretty crowded in there already so I'm hoping that doesn't ruin things toward the end (my system can't really be drilled out cause the chambers are seperate...I definately wanna give plenty of room for the roots to hang when I make my own system

Yeah the root thing is what pretty much stumped me last time.... I see some fair differences in growing in even amongst the plants in my waterfarms and could not tell you why that is ....ventilation as Bonger says? Yes, different types of plants grow differently and at different rates as well so without photo it's hard to say.....also which plants were closest to your light leaks? That may have something to do with it as well.

When i went to the hydro store the other day my guru told me that the way the "pros" do it for maximum lighting is measure the lumens or footcandles plus the temperature of the leaf surface. Anything over 80 degrees on the leaf surface itself will slow photosynthesis WAY down due to the heat produced and the stomata (sp?) will close. X-Crispi and I have been playing with this idea....you can buy little hand held temp gun for about $25... which my guru sold me by the way. I had actually gone there to talk to him about a cool tube so that I could get my light closer and he ended up selling me this instead.....about $100 cheaper but he swore to me this was a better way to do it and its $100 he lost on that so I believe him. Interestingly I found that I had guessed pretty well where my light should be (temps on leaf surface..76-78) so it might be something you want to think about. And seriously, for not having to guess where to put the light alone it was worth it to me.

Mornin guys.......

Wasnt in yesterday/last night at all. Had to get yard back in shape yesterday, get all the sticks n shit picked up that ice and wind removed this winter. Took cover off A/C and got it all the leaves and shit out from around it, etc. Gave the lawn some ferts. Fueled up and fired off the rototiller, wont be long til its time to get some onions and lettuce in the ground. Just a day doing your basic spring yard cleanup stuff. Nice to get the hell outta the house for a change.

'Hound, I figger you kept ASD in check for the day and didnt let him go to 2700 ppm for whatever reason he thought he should.....LOL:D

ASD.....about what I said about ventilation.......its a fact, jack......take it to the bank or mortgage the house on it. Seriously, with a sealed room setup you want more intake than exhaust. If you know any tinbenders that work exclusively with HVAC systems, ask them. The last thing you could possibly want is to create a suction. Think about it, when you are exhausting air from room, its doing its damdest to suck air from someplace.

I will argue this point til I wear the letters off my keyboard with anyone. Anything they say that differs from what I stated above is pure and total bullshit. I consulted with 3 different guys who only do HVAC work. All told me exact same thing.

You might be able to get away with a vent/darkroom louver type setup, but I would not think its ideal. Mine is simple, when my fans are kicked on by the thermostat the 10" brings in a nice flow of Hepa filtered from outside and the 8" is drawing the stale stuff through carbon filter and exhausting to the attic. My buddy said that for the little bit of static pressure that the carbon filter would produce that using 10 in, 8 out was perfecto. And my duct run is only 42 inches I think to attic, so the static pressure there is nil.

I have a Y with a 8" to 6" on one side of Y in the duct going to attic and thats also where my hot air from lights goes to. All my insulated flex duct hangs by chains fastened to J hooks screwed in the ceiling that have been slid thru 1" black rubber radiator type hose. That keeps the duct from kinking and I can easily move my lights up and down and adjust height of duct accordingly by taking up or down a few links. I use insulated duct to dampen noise only.

Yeah, I got a few bux in fans most would have a hard time warranting the cash for, but if I am going to pay 100 bucks for pack of seeds, spending 6-700 bucks on the proper setup for ventilation only made sense to me. I did have the fortune of being able to get a tinbender I know very well to fab me some custom duct work for some finished product, so that saved me as well.

Posted someplace on this site (and looking for it makes no sense because it is not even close to being correct) someone said you want to have your exhaust 1.5 times the size of your intake. That could not be further from the truth. All you need to do is look how a forced air furnace works. Its the exact same principle, same with mega HVAC systems.

I also have an always closed electric duct damper on exhaust that leads to attic. I spliced it into same wire that powers 8" exhaust fan. So when thermo kicks fans on, the damper gets power also and opens and allows the exhaust to flow freely. Once the fans shut down, it springs back closed. Thats before the Y and on the filter side. This would make adding C02 a breeze, which I originally intended to do, but I scratched that idea for good. Since not commercial here, I have no need to worry about increasing the yield. Keeping C02 tanks filled would be a major pain in my ass, and I really do not care for the idea of a propane "fired" C02 burner running.

One other tidbit, if you use sealed hoods/Cool Breeze/Cool Tube type lights NEVER put fan on same circut as light. Reason being if light trips breaker, you want fan to keep cooling light after it shuts down. Therefore fans on lights get own timer and seperate circut. My light fans come on about 10 minutes before lights on and run about 45 minutes after lights out. None of this was designed by a M.I.T. Engineering Grad, its all nothin more than good ole common sense.

Well, thats my thoughts on ventilation and a few tips to make a nice and neat job. Some may do differently, and I could care less. I know mine works, works efficently, and I see the results in my plants. So, there will not be any changes made here. It makes it nice when you know people who do this stuff for a living and can get the how-to's directly from them and save yourself a shitload of trial and error and "wondering" if its installed correctly.

Keep em growin,:rasta:
b0nger

Mastercool 52224-A Infrared Thermometer with Laser Order# MAS52224-A www.TheToolWarehouse.Net

One of the best investments I ever made for the grow room.


b0nger