The Definitive Green Dragon (Revised, Updated, Combined)

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Originally Posted by subsonicbug

To me, the step that stands out the most is the decarboxylation process. It seems like the crucial process of decarboxylation has a variety of techniques, and I would like to join our efforts as herbal scientists to figure out the proper temperature/time for the most potent results.

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I used a 200F oven for 20 minutes prior to doing the extraction step. I think that 200F is a safe temperature that will not evaporate any of the good stuff. I've only made green dragon using this decarboxylation technique, so I have nothing to compare to, but the results have been good for me.

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Originally Posted by subsonicbug

If I am mistaken and there is another chemical process taking place here apart from decarboxylation (possibly converting other less psycho-active cannibinoids to more active ones...) please tell me about it and explain why the higher temperatures accomplish that.

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I think the oven step is primarily for decarboxylation, not for isomerization (converting less active compounds to more active). I too am interested in knowing if there are any techniques for isomerization. There are laboratory type techniques, but i'm looking for a home kitchen type process that uses food ingredients, not chemicals. I'm trying a few experiments with additional heating and using lemon juice for acidity, but have not done all the comparisions yet. See http://boards.cannabis.com/recipes/1...en-dragon.html

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Originally Posted by subsonicbug

Moving on to other steps in the process, does anyone know of any technique that enhances the extraction rate/amount of THC from the plant material during the water-bath step? I make sure to use everclear and stir pretty often during this step as I have read that there is a thc-rich film which forms in the alcohol during this time that needs to be stirred back in.

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I use more Everclear than Master Wu uses. And I also do more than one extraction on the same mash, then combine them together. I think that this extracts all the THC possible.

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Originally Posted by subsonicbug

Lastly, what methods of consuming Green Dragon yield the most complete absorbtion by the body? I read Wu's Green Dragon in Beer posts and this is what I have done for my attempts. I also assume the empty stomach is crucial. Anything else that can be added?

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I think the empty stomach is important. I like having it on a day when I'm not planning to accomplish a whole lot, and I have a shot of Green Dragon Liqueur in my coffee in the morning, before breakfast!
I think that adding the green dragon tincture to another alcoholic beverage is probably important if you are making tincture. My process is a bit different from the tincture, and the end result is an alocoholic liqueur. I like the liqueur better because it already has all the alcohol it needs to transport the THC into the body, and I like measuring out shots rather than using an eye dropper --- fewer mistakes if you are measuring ounces, not mls. If you are interested, my technique for making the Green Dragon Liqueur is earlier in this thread.

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Originally Posted by subsonicbug

Master, please get back on this thread, I haven't seen any updated posts in a while!

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Yes! Where has Master Wu been? We need your wisdom, Master!

Warning to all those thinking of trying 1/8th of dank: If you screw up that's $50-60 down the drain. Once again something didn't go right. I have followed all the steps correctly, took 5 ml and nothing. I'm thinking of just taking a shot of the whole damn thing tonight and hoping I at least feel something. Fuck, another $60 down the drain. I'm never trying this again. With the same eighth I can make it last 35 highs (.1 gram bowls). I'm starting to believe trying to eat weed is retarded(takes so damned much). If you want to trip, just get some shrooms or salvia.

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Originally Posted by dragonrider

...And I also do more than one extraction on the same mash, then combine them together. I think that this extracts all the THC possible.

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I too do more than one extraction from the same mash. After my first straining and pressing, I pour another ounce of Everclear over the mash and press to extract as much THC as possible. I then boil the resulting liquid down one more time to get my final ounce of GD. This has seemed to result in a more potent final tincture. I am able to get the same high from one dropper that I used to get from two (and my tolerance must have gone up!). Of course, this could also be the result of better quality produce.

I have wondered whether or not my current product is saturated. If THC is Alcohol soluble, there must be a point at which it becomes saturated and cannot be absorbed anymore. Even after I strain my mixture, I do see particles floating in the GD - is this THC that cannot be absorbed or is this just other plant material?

As far as the comments I have read regarding decarboxylation, I use Master Wu's temperature and time and it has never done me wrong. When I first started making the Dragon, I did some research and independently confirmed his temp & time on other websites (unfortunately I don't have those links anymore).

Master Wu - Please give us your thoughts on the Saturation issue.

Dragonrider, Subsonicbug & others - Your posts are very well thought out and formulated. Let's continue this "open-source collaboration" to make the best GD possible.

I thought about this solubility issue of THC in ethanol. I would think, as a biotech scientist, that the amount of THC in an 8th of weed is in the micrograms range (10e-6). Solubility of compounds like THC in ethanol is most probably in the range of a couple of miligrams (10e-3) / ml. So I don't think it is the real problem here, unless you go way over the already advised 3.5 g / oz of ethanol in final product.

Greetings Friends,

It has been a long while since I last posted. I am pleased to see the advancement of the GD technology.

1. Decarboxylation Temperature:
I have been thinking about lowering the temperature to Dragonriders 200F for 20min. It seems safer. At 350F I always feel a little stressed (and who enjoys feeling stressed?). Since DR has had such good results at the lower temperature, I'm going to give it a try. I need to make some more GD in the next week, so I'll let you know how it compares.

Also the lower temperature would make it less likely that folks would vaporize all the THC away. I'm afraid that is what happened to Mandelbrot with his 20min at 350F.

2. Saturation and Solute Amount:
I have been using more ethanol for my extractions. Dragonrider is right that the larger volume will make a better extraction. My initial 2oz was a little slim, and I think I lost a fair amount of THC because I didn't have a large enough starting volume of ethanol. I've been very successful with 3oz of ethanol to start. This leaves me a nice concentrated 2oz of GD with almost the same potency as my initial attempts. So I'm getting about a 50% increase in number of doses. You could always use a larger amount (say 4 or 5oz of ethanol) and then reduce it to a smaller, more portable volume. My neighbors made some GD with an ounce of bud and half a bottle of Everclear. They accidentally used a wide bowl for their extraction vessel and boiled away most of their solute. They called me in a panic--worried that they ruined it. We simply added more ethanol to bring up the volume and finished the extraction. We also did a wash with fresh ethanol and extracted again. We ended up with about 12oz of some very fine GD.

I'm sure that either using a larger amount of ethanol to start with or washing the mash with a second extraction are both equally good practices.

3. Ingestion:
I find the most efficient method for me is to put the GD in a little beer. About half a beer usually does the trick. Taking the GD with beer eliminates the need to have a completely empty stomach. And if things are coming on too slow, just drink a little more beer and that seems to push it on through. I also really like the absinthe effect when you drop the GD into the beer.

If I decide on a little morning GD, then I prefer to put it into a nice cuppa tea. This turns my black tea into green tea.

4. Storage:
The stuff seems to last forever. I put it in my fridge, but I know I'm just being paranoid. It should be fine a room temp just like any other spirit. This is an area that could use a little testing. It would be nice to know if the GD is stable at room temp for a long period of time. However I would definitely keep it out of the light.

To Dragonrider, Subsonicbug, ucesq, Mandelbrot, and everyone else who has worked to perfect the elusive and magical Green Dragon, thank you very much for your goodwill, intelligence, and effort. I think we are getting close to a perfect recipe.

Cheers,
-Master Wu

Thanks for your reply Master Wu. Also thanks to Mandelbrot (I forgot to mention you in my last post)

If you guys are like me, you make GD because it is a healthier alternative to smoking, it is concealable and portable (easily placed with my toiletries in my checked bags). The downside to GD is the long time it takes to take effect. One solution to this problem might be to make GD with Glycerine instead of Alcohol so it can be absorbed quickly and sublingually. Dragonrider has actually started a thread on this at:

http://boards.cannabis.com/recipes/1...ml#post1693575

I reposted a recipe on that thread for a so-called "CannaGliss" recipe that uses Glycerine instead of Alcohol for the base of the tincture. In this recipe the author does not employ decarboxylation and makes 8oz of CannGliss per 1oz of MJ. However, the author claims that only 2-3 drops will get you high. His dosage numbers are:

"Approximately 2-3 drops per dosage for a good timeâ?¦ equals about 6 bowls of good weed smoked in a bong, if the recipe is done properly. This means that every ounce of herb and a cup of glycerine mixture you have, you will end up with approximately 4800 drops (or 1600 doses) if strained completely. For only one gram of herb and 8.5ml of glycerine you will get about 60 doses at 3 drops each. â?¦This is comparable to a normal approx 97 .3g bowls that you would get out of an ounce on an average basis."

I have purchase some Food-Grade Glycerine and plan to try my first batch this week by applying many of the techniques developed in this forum. However, I still have questions I would like answered before I start.

I would ask my fellow experimenters to read recipe on the thread and post your thoughts on the process.

Master Wu! Thanks for getting back to us! You always have such well thought out, and well explained ideas. I feel more comfortable with the 200F decarboxylization temp, and I have never tried it any higher than that. Since you have used higher temps in the past, if you do try the 200F, will you post a comparison?

Ucesq, I've got some more ideas on the glycerine-based tincture, and I will post them on that thread when I get a chance.

Hi Friends,

As promised I said I would follow-up on my most recent extraction using a decarboxylation temperature/time of 200F / 25min.

Unfortunately this seemed to give me a rather poor extraction. A standard dose in 6oz of beer came on slowly, was dull feeling, and fairly mild. This is in stark contrast to my prior successes with the same starting material that resulted in a strong, energetic high.

I think I will go back to the 325F / 5min decarboxylation. Although it is true that there will be some vaporization, this can be controlled with careful monitoring. In fact I stop the decarboxylation if I see a significant vapor, but I will allow some small amount of vaporization in order to get the full 5 minutes. Could it be possible that the optimal decarboxylation occurs at/near the vaporization temperature?

Note that this is preliminary however it feels like prior less-than-stellar extractions I've made. I think those poor extractions were almost always due to chickening out on the decarboxylation (due to seeing vapors) and removing weed too soon.

It would be great if someone wanted to do a side-by-side comparison extraction with a small amount of weed at the two different decarboxylation time/temps.

Cheers,
Master Wu

Sorry the 200F temp did not work as well for you, and thanks for posting the comparison. That 200F temp is the only one I have ever used, and it seems to work for me pretty well (but I guess I have nothing to personally compare it to). Next time I make a batch, I'll give the 325F a try. If I see too many fumes, I'll just stick my head in the oven and suck 'em up!

Do you know if the decarboxylization process needs to be carried out in a relatively moisture-free environment? I was thinking that if the decarb process did not complete well before the extraction, but all the THCA was extracted into the GD, maybe heating at that point could complete the process. Of courese, it won't heat past the boiling point of the solvent, but maybe holding it at that temp for awhile might still do some good?

ok im pretty excited about trying this out. everclear is not legal where i live but it is where my sister lives and i will have a bottle to work with next week. I am pretty new to cooking but I will say that I had made my first batch of brownies last week and OMG my brother who is a daily heavy smoker ate two and got sooo high he missing work the next morning. everyone who ate one was amazed.
so needless to say I am hooked on this cooking stuff!

I do have a couple questions that i am hoping to get answered before I give this a shot.

First is for Master wu or anyone that has had great sucess at 325 in the oven. How sure are you even though your oven is set at 325 that the inside is actually at 325. my point is if master wus oven is off by any amount at all(say +/- a couple degrees)that would be a huge factor here. Maybe if master wu or someone that had very similar results could put a thermometer in the oven and set it at 325 we could get much closer to perfecting recipe. Now this can be done even while not baking just put the therm in and set it to 325 wait and see the highest temp it gets too and then wait like 5 mins for it to remain steady.

My second question is:Is it at all possible that different strains release at different temps. Meaning lets say for agrunments sake master wu is grpwning his own and only using one strain to make this each and every time. could that be a factor here?

I understand that evaportion has a set temp but could the release happen at different temps when it come to different strains?

Again I have sometime as I wont have the everclear until next week.

I also plan on doing a test with 6 people. 2 people will have it in 6oz of beer, 2 will have it in tea, and 1 will have it in an oz of water and 1 will have it in some wine. each person will be instructed to not eat 2hrs before the test. I will make up a sheet that will have things like:

Time of consumption
What time did you start to feel the effects
What time you peeked
how long it lasted
How long it lingured
How often you smoke
was the high a body high or a head high

if anyone has anything that they would like to see added to the sheet please let me know.


I would love to see this perfected and look forward to testing this.

Mike