Feminism (male input welcomed)

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Originally Posted by dutch.lover

BA, how many times do we need to tell you that law does NOT equal exercising of rights. Just because a law says something, doesn't mean it happens. Get it through your head!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Geez you're tiring.

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No need for all the exclamation marks. BA was (in my eyes) clearly replying to BirdGirl when he posted the Equity Pay Act. He stated that there were laws in place, and birdgirl's reply was

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No we certainly do not. We have laws for equal opportunity employment which aren't always honored, but we don't have any such law for equal pay.

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He was simply correcting someone. He hasn't used any hostility so far from what I've seen, so I feel it's unfair to be hostile in return. Disagreeing is fine, agreeing to disagree is fine, agreeing not to talk or respond to him is fine, there's not need to be hostile with someone who is talking in a civil manner, no matter how "wrong" you may consider him, we are all equals here, regardless of gender creed or religion.

btw sorry about the bold print, I have no idea why it's bold after the quote.

A true story. I hope that this shows up on YOUTUBE someday.

Shortly after the original Godfather movie came out, James Caan, who played Sonny Corleone (the oldest son of Vito), was on a daytime talk show being interviewed. It was probably the Mike Douglas Show . This was around the time of the beginning of modern "Women's Lib". One of the other guests was the female world champion arm wrestler. Somebody on the panel suggested that Jimmy Caan, even with his recent success as the ultra-macho Sonny, could not beat the female champ in a match, and the audience was yelling for him to try. He balked, and said that he couldnâ??t do it, he wasnâ??t in shape, too old, etc. After much badgering, enduring taunts and catcalls, etc., the good natured actor acquiesced and sat down with her for a match. He won. :thumbsup:

Advocat wrote;
A true story. I hope that this shows up on YOUTUBE someday.

Shortly after the original Godfather movie came out, James Caan, who played Sonny Corleone (the oldest son of Vito), was on a daytime talk show being interviewed. It was probably the Mike Douglas Show . This was around the time of the beginning of modern "Women's Lib". One of the other guests was the female world champion arm wrestler. Somebody on the panel suggested that Jimmy Caan, even with his recent success as the ultra-macho Sonny, could not beat the female champ in a match, and the audience was yelling for him to try. He balked, and said that he couldnâ??t do it, he wasnâ??t in shape, too old, etc. After much badgering, enduring taunts and catcalls, etc., the good natured actor acquiesced and sat down with her for a match. He won.

Dude, that was very chivilrous of her to let him win. To imply that any man could beat any woman at anything physical is ludicrous. How about Stephen Hawkins kicking Martina Navratolova's But? NOT!



Hardcoe wrote;
He was simply correcting someone. He hasn't used any hostility so far from what I've seen, so I feel it's unfair to be hostile in return. Disagreeing is fine, agreeing to disagree is fine, agreeing not to talk or respond to him is fine, there's not need to be hostile with someone who is talking in a civil manner, no matter how "wrong" you may consider him, we are all equals here, regardless of gender creed or religion.

btw sorry about the bold print, I have no idea why it's bold after the
quote.

We have both noted the hostility here from some of the females. What gives? I feel like some of you need to be sent to the time out chair untill you can behave like civilized young ladies. The original post was open to men and asked for no male bashing. Seriously, what gives? Why all the personal attacks?

- Slow -

OH MY GODDDD! Now polymirize has given me negative reps!

who bitchs about rep? its like you're grovelling for pity

And you sounded like such an intelegent and reasoning woman. What a shame. Let me use small words for you so there is no confusion. I WAS MAKING A POINT!

I could give a hoot what some facless people on my computer think of me. Why don't you go bury your head back in the sand? Obviously the only opinion that counts to you is your own.

Since you brought it up though..What if I was the sensative type? What if the neg reps hurt my feelings? Enjoy adding salt to the wound do you?

Polly, you have made this very personal. You really do sound like a well educated woman. Why can't you keep this a discussion or even a debate? Why do you wish to turn it into a fight?

- Slow -

Polymirize is a man, Slow. One of the few. The proud. The evolved. You assumed because he was so articulate that he was a woman? Because women are the only ones who can be verbally articulate whereas men are the only ones who can do math and engineering? Wasn't that what you were saying back there when you were telling me you were a primary school teacher? Just like you were saying that only men can fight fires? And only women could initiate research studies showing that there's an inequity of teacher attention to female students?

You terrify me. I will be civil because I know I won't win any converts or change any other people's minds by getting strident or angry. And I already know your mind is unchangeable anyway. But you really do remind me of just how much more progress is needed in this area.

As one of my smartest correspondents told me behind the scenes, "What's scary is that for every two like BA and Slow who express those thoughts, there are dozens more men keeping silent who believe the same thing."

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Originally Posted by slowlickitysplit

Advocat wrote;
A true story. I hope that this shows up on YOUTUBE someday.

Shortly after the original Godfather movie came out, James Caan, who played Sonny Corleone (the oldest son of Vito), was on a daytime talk show being interviewed. It was probably the Mike Douglas Show . This was around the time of the beginning of modern "Women's Lib". One of the other guests was the female world champion arm wrestler. Somebody on the panel suggested that Jimmy Caan, even with his recent success as the ultra-macho Sonny, could not beat the female champ in a match, and the audience was yelling for him to try. He balked, and said that he couldnâ??t do it, he wasnâ??t in shape, too old, etc. After much badgering, enduring taunts and catcalls, etc., the good natured actor acquiesced and sat down with her for a match. He won.

Dude, that was very chivilrous of her to let him win. To imply that any man could beat any woman at anything physical is ludicrous. How about Stephen Hawkins kicking Martina Navratolova's But? NOT!



Hardcoe wrote;
He was simply correcting someone. He hasn't used any hostility so far from what I've seen, so I feel it's unfair to be hostile in return. Disagreeing is fine, agreeing to disagree is fine, agreeing not to talk or respond to him is fine, there's not need to be hostile with someone who is talking in a civil manner, no matter how "wrong" you may consider him, we are all equals here, regardless of gender creed or religion.

btw sorry about the bold print, I have no idea why it's bold after the
quote.

We have both noted the hostility here from some of the females. What gives? I feel like some of you need to be sent to the time out chair untill you can behave like civilized young ladies. The original post was open to men and asked for no male bashing. Seriously, what gives? Why all the personal attacks?

- Slow -

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There are some serious double and triple standards present here, as elsewhere, but let's leave that one on the back-burner for now...............:thumbsup:

Ethics are the key. Congratulations, few people have much in the way of those anymore.

Birdgirl wrote;

Polymirize is a man, Slow. One of the few. The proud. The evolved. You assumed because he was so articulate that he was a woman? Because women are the only ones who can be verbally articulate whereas men are the only ones who can do math and engineering? Wasn't that what you were saying back there when you were telling me you were a primary school teacher? Just like you were saying that only men can fight fires? And only women could initiate research studies showing that there's an inequity of teacher attention to female students?

You terrify me. I will be civil because I know I won't win any converts or change any other people's minds by getting strident or angry. And I already know your mind is unchangeable anyway. But you really do remind me of just how much more progress is needed in this area.


No, I assumed that Polly was a womans name.

I have no idea how I have gotten so misunderstood here. I am not a chest thumping neaderthal as you all seem to think.
Let me say first off that I NEVER said women shouldn't be fire fighters or anything of the sort. My class validictorian was an all county shot putter and went to Anapoliss (sp) and she could have kicked my but up and down the halls all day long if she wished to.

I believe in equality. I'm the guy (and I'm proud to say my boys are too) who will risk his own safety to defend the weak. Be it the kindergardener who my son protected from two much older bullies on the bus, to throwing a skinhead type of jerk out of a party when he started spouting off about Jews. I don't put up with fanaticisim and I don't put up with repression. Maybe that's why I'm so angered by some of you. You appear to be trying to repress my opinions by coersion (IE. name calling, neg reps, speaking to eachother about me as though I weren't here.)

As one of my smartest correspondents told me behind the scenes, "What's scary is that for every two like BA and Slow who express those thoughts, there are dozens more men keeping silent who believe the same thing."

Behind the scenes? Birdgirl, I am starting to question weather you should be a moderator. I have seen you on numerous threads attacking B.A. with no apparent cause. I am begining to think you are abusing your position. I'm sorry, I know we tried to bury the hatchet but I have to call it as I see it. Particularly the one where you told him you were angered by something he wrote then errased before posting. That was some serious BS.


To the rest of you....
I am not an idiot. I have been provocative in an attempt to open a discusion on the assumptions of feminisim. Has it been good for America? Could it be the cause of our current moral crisis? Anyone want to discuss this issue? Anyone left with an open mind?

- Slow -

Purple bannana wrote;
How can you claim women learn better 'by the book?' I, for one, enjoy learning hands-on, and I don't enjoy sitting for hours on end. I'm not the only one.

Primary school is a whole different ballpark from secondary and post-secondary education. Different people learn different ways; I honestly can't see how you would equate learning styles to gender-specific categories. It's all relative to the individual, not some group consensus.
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You're right. I made a generalization for simplicity sake. That does not change the fact though that there are very distict differences between the sexes and this is particularly true in the primary years. Girls have better fine motor skills and boys have better large motor skills. That is why girls have better penmanship and boys throw a football better at that age (Yes, generaly).

If any of you have looked in on a 6th grade classroom recently you might have been reminded of popcorn popping. Boys just can't sit still. There are simply differences between young girls and boys.

What a lot of you are alluding to is that boys take up a lot of the teachers time, primarily because of disruptive behavior. This is true. But overall girls get better grades in primary school because it is better suited to thier natures. The grade disparity slowly drops off in later years but I feel that is primarily due to societies expectation of girls and boys. It's a shame too. My 4th grade daughter is high honors and she can run circles around her two older brothers on the soccer field but, when she plays on the girl's team all she want's to do is socialize. It's not cool for her to be a good athlete. This is something that frustrates me no end. She has a niece who got a full boat scholarship to college for basketball but that has no influence. I can only pray that her two other nieces who are doctors will be enough influence to help her keep her grades up as she gets older.
Sorry. Went off on a tangent there. LOL

- Slow -

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Originally Posted by slowlickitysplit

[U]Behind the scenes? Birdgirl, I am starting to question weather you should be a moderator. I have seen you on numerous threads attacking B.A. with no apparent cause. I am begining to think you are abusing your position. I'm sorry, I know we tried to bury the hatchet but I have to call it as I see it. Particularly the one where you told him you were angered by something he wrote then errased before posting.

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You need to read that thread again. Very slowly. Then read it again. Eventually you'll see that I simply told him I'd seen what he'd written previously and revised mine in similar fashion. I found that quite funny because, frankly, my revision was much more necessary than his. He's perfectly welcome to tell me what he thinks, as are you, and the rules of the road are a little different in politics. BA made his edit out of courtesy and respect to the debate and these boards, which was the same reason I changed my own. I happen to enjoy debating and talking with BA. We've done this since practically my first week here. I suspect he and I wouldn't keep at it with each other if we didn't get some fun out of it. Of all the people on these boards I'd like to meet and shake hands with, BA ranks up near the top.

I'm glad you question my being a mod!! Just like you've questioned women's ability to qualify physically to fight fires: http://boards.cannabis.com/womens-is...ml#post1323081 Or be anything other than verbal, emotional creatures who have ruined the economy and society by working outside the home. Means I've at least irritated you enough to get you looking at things differently for a brief time. And it shows, yet again, that when the going gets tough, you cry "insult!", question the most recent arguer or whoever's freely voiced an opinion on you by giving you negative reps, and try and redirect the conversation in another direction. You also sign off real quickly and read from the sidelines as a guest. I've been enjoying watching that happen, too.

I do rather think we're starting to go in circles here. Dutch Lover, since you were the brave soul who started this thread, I want you to say the word if you decide at some point you want to close it. I'm having fun, but I think some of the guys are licking their wounds, and I know that doesn't feel good. And that truly doesn't feel good for me, either. Let me know what you think!

Slow,

I remember reading, some 20 or more years ago, that a country in Scandanavia, or possibly the Netherlands, was conducting experimens in starting the education of boys later then girls. The theory was that the boys' were not suited to sit at a desk all day at as young an age as girls were. There are numerous studies that show boys mature later than girls, as well. It's happening in the high schools, also.

Here's an an interesting article.
Survey Finds Young Boys Failing in Schools Across the US
By Jeff Swicord
Washington, DC
13 April 2006

In classrooms across the U.S., there is a new trend that worries educators. In every category and demographic group, boys are falling behind in school.

Anita Doyle is a learning specialist who works with kids who are having academic troubles at the private Episcopal High School outside Washington D.C.

"In this year's freshman class, I met about five girls and about 30 boys but I have continued to meet with the boys and I don't see any of the girls. All of the girls have kind of figured out how to do things and they are on their own. Between myself and another learning specialist we meet with about 20 other boys," she says.

Episcopal is an elite private high school that admits students based on standardized test scores and grades. Students are generally of similar academic ability.

Yet Anita Doyle still sees dramatic differences in performance between the sexes. "A 14-year-old girl is academically more mature than a 14-year-old boy. This makes a huge difference, especially in the high school years. Because, what you are asking of high schoolers is to keep track of five or six subjects, plan ahead for their long term projects, decide what is important to study, to review for tests, to prioritize. And many boys are not ready to do that task."

Recent scientific research suggests that many of these differences may be hard-wired in the brain. Boys mature a year or more later than girls, and are twice as likely to have a learning disability. They tend to fidget and lose focus easily. Brain studies suggest they process language and emotions less efficiently than girls. Boys in the U.S. bring home 70 percent of poor or failing grades and receive the bulk of school suspensions.

Twenty years ago, it was the girls who had fallen behind, and efforts to improve their academic performance included hiring more female teachers, who were sensitive to girls' needs.

That has had an impact on boys, says Alvaro Devicente, the Headmaster of The Heights School, a private all-boys school in the Washington area. "I think that in many cases boys are falling behind because there has been a process over the last 20 years, a process of education becoming more feminine," he said. "And I mean that in sort of a realistic factual sense. Because if you look at the statistics there is a majority of women teachers and a majority of girls in the school that everything gets tailored to the girls and the young women."

Armed with the latest statistics, many parents are abandoning the idea of gender equality in schools, acknowledging the differences between the sexes, and turning to same-sex education. The faculty at The Heights School is all male and caters to what Devicente says are the special learning needs of young boys.

"There have been studies, very interesting studies about how boys hear differently than girls," Devicente notes. "For a boy to really hear the tone, the volume has to be louder. So that if the teacher is speaking at a volume that is comfortable for girls, the boy is going to get distracted because it is like elevator music almost. You start looking around and you are surely going to find a distraction if you are 12-years-old in a classroom."

At the Heights school, boys are given four breaks a day. They are allowed to play tackle football, throw snowballs and vent all of their pent-up energy. Mr. Devicente says that improves their concentration in class.

"I think that one thing that may happen in other schools is that the way that they try to control boys is by thwarting their passion," he says. "Keeping a lid on them and getting them to do the right thing. And that is very dangerous because you can't ask a boy to fake it. You have to redirect his passion, and they are going to be passionate and they should be passionate."

Ms. Doyle, says it is (sic) a character flaw. "You have got to understand that the way boys behave is not a character flaw. It is who they are," she says. "So you have to start with that premise. You have to start at a situation where they can see what they are capable of. "

Most educators agree that a wholesale change of teaching practices in schools runs the risk of doing more harm than good. But many believe accepting that differences do exist between the sexes is a starting point for realizing the full potential of every student.
Survey Finds Young Boys Failing in Schools Across the US