Do you believe in god?

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Originally Posted by torog

You're just plain wrong..

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I disagree. Its not about being right or wrong, its about being open. And believing you are some authority because you were able to reproduce is not open, its condescending and elitist.

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if all you do-is spend yer time and effort on looking out only for yerself,your character will be lacking..if the only one you spend yer paycheck on ,is yourself..then you are missing out on a whole slice of Life,your experience..is therefore less. It takes a really good person to have both good character and be single and berift of children,the folks in that situation are not as well-rounded as folks who've had children.

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Your world is coming off a little small.

I know a lot of caring, wonderful, selfless people who are not parents. And I know a lot of people that should have been sterilized that are. Becoming selfless and developing character is not a reward for reproducing. That comes from within, and takes years to skill. You dont need to have a child to develop those kinds of skills, and its presumptuous and narrow-minded and self-serving to believe you are an authority, you possess more character, more ability to love others, and therefore are better than people (well, a group of people) because you chose to have a child.

Children do not bring forth the gift of dignity. Thats a gift you give yourself, and you dont need a child in order to recieve it. Sure a child may be a great encouragement to get yourself in check, but that definitely isnt a guarantee like you seemingly believe.

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Man is capable of greatness,because we were created in God's Image..we did not create God..God created us..it is foolish to place our trust in our fellow man,as no man is perfect..that don't make me 'superior' to anyone..it just means that I'm wise enough to realize that. Trust..but verify ! I ain't into being superior to others or feeding my ego,I seek humilty and denial of ego,and I thank God everyday,for my many blessings..when was the last time that you were grateful for anything ? I seek to raise others up-not bring em down..I'm an optimist-not a pessimist.

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And I live my life the exact same way...except the not trusting man and the God business. Faith in God is not a prerequisite for being a good, humble person. Assumptions that those of us who are non-believers are not gracious or grateful for what we have is like saying your enlightenment you have recieved in life has more value over others enlightenment which may not involve the typical "found Jesus" scenerio. I understand you believe that the road to Jesus is the road to humility and grace, but understand that others dont necessarily feel that way, and speaking for myself I dont appreciate people attempting to take away my value as a person, my personal sense of dignity, my self-respect, and my ability to be humble, gracious, and selfless because I dont believe what they do.

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Being faithful to God,requires much more thinking and work,than being a self-serving humanist,

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Well, thats just a matter of opinion, obivously our opinions differ, however I know there are many believers out there who are incredibly thoughtful, loving, caring people who people should really strive to be like. Being a good person is not easy, being a person with self-respect and character and honesty is not easy. Religion can definitely make an impact on people for the better, Im not denying that. But, that said, it can also make people condescending, elitist, and disrespectful of others. I understand people are sucummbing to natural human behavior in that aspect, but it makes for a bad name for people of faith, and not something I would wish to be a part of. So when I see someone exhibiting those bad behaviors because they seemingly feel they have an authority to do so because of their faith, it really makes my skin crawl...and I want to shake them.

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I ain't a Christian because I wanted to stop thinking,rather,I seek the Truth and am interested and dedicated to my spiritual evolution..those who deny God,are the ones who've decided to stop thinking..and join the parade of debaucherers and sinners. Being a Christian,ain't about being superior to others,rather-it's about being humble and grateful.

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I do believe that that being humble and grateful is exactly what being a christian is all about. The church can really help people get the tools they need to be successful and feel confident and have self-worth...tools that every person needs, really. There is no denying that, and that is a positive in the church that should be promoted more.
Saying things that sound fear-motivated and self-serving however is repellant. It puts those that aren't believers on the defensive, rather than willing to embrace your beliefs.

As far as who's faith makes 'em think the hardest, I do find it difficult that embracing the Bible would require much thinking, like Ghost said, "outside the box." Although embracing something that most can agree lacks logic probably constitutes as thinking outside the box.
For all I know you may have studied every possibility out there and embraced the one that made the most sense and works the best for you. Bravo to you if you really did take the time to explore all possibilities. Im still exploring and am not ready to hang my hat on one belief sytem as of yet, but Im pretty positive at this point that the bible and jesus God isn't going to be it. Im not willing to devote my life towards a belief that doesn't make sense to me. And so my goal is to strive searching for beliefs and ideas that do.
As sad as it is that this happens, you know as well as I do that many people latch onto Christianity without exploring the alternatives, and then have the audacity to condemn those who believe differently than they do when they lack education of other beliefs. Thats what I mean by not thinking. When you pick one belief without really putting much effort into exploring others, you have pretty much hung up your critical thinking cap and accepted what you have been offered as truth and just went with it. That to me is not a deep thinker. Like I said, that may not be you, and if its not you I do apologize for insinuating that you are not a thinker. :)

**wonders if he accidently stumbled in to the Politics board**

Hey Torog,

I wonder.. if man is only capable of greatness because God created man in his image, then surely even the Original Sin by Eve was something from God's nature that he put in to us? Using your logic man is only imperfect because God is imperfect.

If this is not the case and man has developed impurity and imperfection himself than surely it goes to follow that not all man's traits are given to us by God? Of course there is no way to discern between which of our characteristics are God given and which developed themselves over time.

Using your own logic, it is just as plausable that God is in fact imperfect and we only inherited that imperfection from him, and that any greatness man is capable of is, for want of a better term, man made.

What do you say?

GHoST

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Originally Posted by likemclever

And to simply cross your arms and shake your head and say â??nope no Godâ?� so Iâ??m not even gonna think about it.

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Most people who don't believe in god, like myself, got there not by saying "no, I'm not believing and not thinking about it", we got there because we analysed all these claims about god and just couldn't find any conclusive evidence or logical explanation for these outrageous claims. The whole concept of faith is basically to convince the public that you're a good person and will be rewarded for eternity if you just believe and don't ask why. think about it, say we have no religion and I say "look, if you just quit asking questions and believe me, I'll give you eternal bliss. oh... yeah, and if you dont', I'll torment you forever and ever". if I used such an explanation for any other aspect of reality, people would laugh at me. it's only when we can escape such an environment and learn how to think outside the conditioning that we see past the lies.

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Originally Posted by mrdevious

Most people who don't believe in god, like myself, got there not by saying "no, I'm not believing and not thinking about it", we got there because we analysed all these claims about god and just couldn't find any conclusive evidence or logical explanation for these outrageous claims. The whole concept of faith is basically to convince the public that you're a good person and will be rewarded for eternity if you just believe and don't ask why. think about it, say we have no religion and I say "look, if you just quit asking questions and believe me, I'll give you eternal bliss. oh... yeah, and if you dont', I'll torment you forever and ever". if I used such an explanation for any other aspect of reality, people would laugh at me. it's only when we can escape such an environment and learn how to think outside the conditioning that we see past the lies.

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I completely agree. Sure there are those that openly reject God and/or religion mainly to get a rise out of people, as its a subject that people are passionate about whether they believe or they dont. Those kinds of people aren't difficult to spot, however, and really aren't worth anyone's precious time, so no sense arguing with them.
But from my experience talking with people, those that lean more towards science and atheism aren't at that point as an act of rebellion - they're at that point because Christianity is a very difficult faith to fully believe in and devote yourself to given that a lot of the ideas are outdated, there's a lot of holes and unanswered questions, and a lot of blind faith.
If I had the choice between there being a God and there being no God, I sure as shit would pick there to be a God. God and heaven sounds like a pretty sweet deal to me, the feeling that you're taken care of and that if no one else in this world loves you, at least he will. If your life sucks someday when you're dead and in heaven it won't no more, you always have that heaven-thing to look forward if nothing else. Its a very comforting idea. But I remind myself that if it weren't comforting, if there wasn't something in it for us...religion would not work, and thats where I feel the scam comes in:

Christianity appeals to man's sense of importance, it reassures him that he is more than he seems, that he'll be taken care of throughout eternity, that his life wont just end, that his life isnt just that - a life that was lived until death. He'll keep on mattering. Its a really reassuring, comforting, nurturing theory. By manipulating people's fears and emotions you can shape and change people to think and believe the things you do and preach the ideas you preach as long as that promise of security and eternal bliss is reassured to them from time to time for their faith.

And what better way to encourage the skeptics and unbelievers to accept your ideas and preach your ideas then to scare them into burning in hell for eternity if they reject them? The age-old "Well, if Im wrong, at least I wont burn in hell like you if your wrong" is, imo, the rationale of fearful, manipulated individuals.

One more thing I wanted to add:

I saw on a tv show some time back this lady who was a producer or director or something for infomercials. In the interview she said her main job is to get one point across during an infomercial: "This will change your life."
If that point is effectively communicated and reinforced throughout the program they will get big sales.

They also run infomercials in the wee hours because they are more likely to get depressed, vulnerable people filled with desperation at those hours and are more apt to purchase something that will "change their life."

I see this as pretty parallel to congregations. They make claims that your life will be changed for the better and they witness to those that are vulnerable and in desperation, and encourage you to "witness" to those that are vulnerable and in desperate times because they supposedly "need the Lord the most right now." When really they're just vulnerable, and ripe for the picking.

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Originally Posted by Ousted

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I disagree. Its not about being right or wrong, its about being open. And believing you are some authority because you were able to reproduce is not open, its condescending and elitist.



Your world is coming off a little small.

I know a lot of caring, wonderful, selfless people who are not parents. And I know a lot of people that should have been sterilized that are. Becoming selfless and developing character is not a reward for reproducing. That comes from within, and takes years to skill. You dont need to have a child to develop those kinds of skills, and its presumptuous and narrow-minded and self-serving to believe you are an authority, you possess more character, more ability to love others, and therefore are better than people (well, a group of people) because you chose to have a child.

Children do not bring forth the gift of dignity. Thats a gift you give yourself, and you dont need a child in order to recieve it. Sure a child may be a great encouragement to get yourself in check, but that definitely isnt a guarantee like you seemingly believe.



And I live my life the exact same way...except the not trusting man and the God business. Faith in God is not a prerequisite for being a good, humble person. Assumptions that those of us who are non-believers are not gracious or grateful for what we have is like saying your enlightenment you have recieved in life has more value over others enlightenment which may not involve the typical "found Jesus" scenerio. I understand you believe that the road to Jesus is the road to humility and grace, but understand that others dont necessarily feel that way, and speaking for myself I dont appreciate people attempting to take away my value as a person, my personal sense of dignity, my self-respect, and my ability to be humble, gracious, and selfless because I dont believe what they do.




Well, thats just a matter of opinion, obivously our opinions differ, however I know there are many believers out there who are incredibly thoughtful, loving, caring people who people should really strive to be like. Being a good person is not easy, being a person with self-respect and character and honesty is not easy. Religion can definitely make an impact on people for the better, Im not denying that. But, that said, it can also make people condescending, elitist, and disrespectful of others. I understand people are sucummbing to natural human behavior in that aspect, but it makes for a bad name for people of faith, and not something I would wish to be a part of. So when I see someone exhibiting those bad behaviors because they seemingly feel they have an authority to do so because of their faith, it really makes my skin crawl...and I want to shake them.



I do believe that that being humble and grateful is exactly what being a christian is all about. The church can really help people get the tools they need to be successful and feel confident and have self-worth...tools that every person needs, really. There is no denying that, and that is a positive in the church that should be promoted more.
Saying things that sound fear-motivated and self-serving however is repellant. It puts those that aren't believers on the defensive, rather than willing to embrace your beliefs.

As far as who's faith makes 'em think the hardest, I do find it difficult that embracing the Bible would require much thinking, like Ghost said, "outside the box." Although embracing something that most can agree lacks logic probably constitutes as thinking outside the box.
For all I know you may have studied every possibility out there and embraced the one that made the most sense and works the best for you. Bravo to you if you really did take the time to explore all possibilities. Im still exploring and am not ready to hang my hat on one belief sytem as of yet, but Im pretty positive at this point that the bible and jesus God isn't going to be it. Im not willing to devote my life towards a belief that doesn't make sense to me. And so my goal is to strive searching for beliefs and ideas that do.
As sad as it is that this happens, you know as well as I do that many people latch onto Christianity without exploring the alternatives, and then have the audacity to condemn those who believe differently than they do when they lack education of other beliefs. Thats what I mean by not thinking. When you pick one belief without really putting much effort into exploring others, you have pretty much hung up your critical thinking cap and accepted what you have been offered as truth and just went with it. That to me is not a deep thinker. Like I said, that may not be you, and if its not you I do apologize for insinuating that you are not a thinker. :)

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Howdy Ousted,

I reckon that I understand where yer coming from,Ousted..it's just that amongst us parents,we like to say "You ain't really lived yet,till ya have children..". I also find it hard to trust folks who haven't worked hard with their hands and back,they ain't lived yet,either..if ya haven't paid yer dues in blood,sweat and tears..how is it that you've lived ?

There ain't any motivation or reason,coming from the Left and the God-less,to be a moral person of good character..where is the compulsion to do so ? Doing such,is politically-incorrect and considered square and boring. I just don't see any reason or compulsion,for a secular humanist,metrosexual to be of good character..you don't git invited to them city-slicker parties for being a good and moral person.

I was raised up a Christian,in a very conservative congregation,but as I grew older,I did check into the other religions and found them all to be lacking. I don't like fancy dressing,snobby Christians,either and I don't believe in big fancy churches that ain't designed to serve a practical role in the community..and I don't believe in closing myself off from the faithless and God-less,because I believe that God sends us messages from even the afore-mentioned..so,to that end..it behooves me to listen to such folks. They will never shake my Faith,however,but instead..serve to re-enforce it.

Thanx for yer apology,I appreciate it,apologies are few and far between,on these here boards. I realize that it seems as though I have stopped thinking,but I ain't .. I try to remain open to new ideas..like the idea of a Mother God,for instance.

Have a good one ...

Hey Torog, Answer the question man! lol :p

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Originally Posted by GHoSToKeR

Hey Torog,

I wonder.. if man is only capable of greatness because God created man in his image, then surely even the Original Sin by Eve was something from God's nature that he put in to us? Using your logic man is only imperfect because God is imperfect.

If this is not the case and man has developed impurity and imperfection himself than surely it goes to follow that not all man's traits are given to us by God? Of course there is no way to discern between which of our characteristics are God given and which developed themselves over time.

Using your own logic, it is just as plausable that God is in fact imperfect and we only inherited that imperfection from him, and that any greatness man is capable of is, for want of a better term, man made.

What do you say?

GHoST

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I believe in God and Jesus as a prophet only not as his son.

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Originally Posted by Torog

I also find it hard to trust folks who haven't worked hard with their hands and back,they ain't lived yet,either..if ya haven't paid yer dues in blood,sweat and tears..how is it that you've lived ?

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Im sure the people that have jumped out of airplanes or rock climb, or winter in Europe, or Tango, or rescue animals and feed the hungry, or gone to college, or seen the Stones all believe that those who haven't done what they believe is important - haven't lived. It's human nature in action: believing you are better (in this case, have lived more) than others for one reason or another, so therefore reinforcing how great you find yourself to be.
I hope this makes sense.

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There ain't any motivation or reason,coming from the Left and the God-less,to be a moral person of good character..where is the compulsion to do so ?

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I love it when people make this point, lol.

There is plenty of motivation and plenty of reason to be moral and develop and respect your character. For one thing, I treasure my time on this planet and I want to have a great time while Im here. Being a dick to people, being uncaring and selfish does me no favors and makes me no friends. Im not patiently waiting for my eternal bliss to come after Im dead, I am creating it while Im here. Having a nice life and pleasant interaction with others is plenty of motivation.

I do find it insulting that believers think that morality or any desire to be a good person would have to have God involved. I understand in your faith those that arent believers are considered to be consumed by the secular world, plotting against you to get you all to come to the dark side, that we IM with the devil and shit. Or at the very least are consumed by pornography, drugs, alcohol, language, lies, hate, etc etc.
For the most part, not true thats just not true. If people were naturally careless and unloving, and uncaring our species would have died out a long time ago. We know how difficult it is to work together just as we are, imagine if we all were as bad as the churchs try to make us out to be.
We are good people because thats what works. You dont just get a pay off for being a good person in the afterlife, you get payoffs for being a good person here.

Also, those that church and those that dont are exactly the same! Same feelings, same emotions, same problems. People want to do good, people want appreciation, thats something we instinctively desire - its not something thats just discovered in our being when you have taken the Lord into your heart. Thats just yet another way the church manipulates people to believe that they are better than others.

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Doing such,is politically-incorrect and considered square and boring.

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Uh...what? Being a decent person with character is considered square and boring? It's been a long time since Porky's came out... ;)

lol, "square"

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I just don't see any reason or compulsion,for a secular humanist,metrosexual to be of good character.

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Then, Im sorry to say, you just dont see things very clearly.

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.you don't git invited to them city-slicker parties for being a good and moral person.

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I've been invited to parties a lot, and Im very moral and I think most would agree Im a good person.
I would look for another reason why you or your church friends may not be getting invited...like maybe you're judgemental, or find yourself to be superior, perhaps? Its not like people sit around and go "nah, cant invite him man, he's an upstanding citizen with good morals and a nice yard." Its either "do we like em, or dont we?" And knowing what I know about people, being judgemental(like passing judgement if they're drinking or smoking or swearing or something) and finding others inferior will definitely put you on the "not invited" list.

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I was raised up a Christian,in a very conservative congregation,but as I grew older,I did check into the other religions and found them all to be lacking. I don't like fancy dressing,snobby Christians,either and I don't believe in big fancy churches that ain't designed to serve a practical role in the community..and I don't believe in closing myself off from the faithless and God-less,because I believe that God sends us messages from even the afore-mentioned..so,to that end..it behooves me to listen to such folks. They will never shake my Faith,however,but instead..serve to re-enforce it.

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Well, nobody should decide for you, only you can decide whats best for you, and its great to hear that you are in the drivers seat in that regard when it comes to secular influences. I just ask that you also be in the drivers seat when sitting in church.

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Thanx for yer apology,I appreciate it,apologies are few and far between,on these here boards. I realize that it seems as though I have stopped thinking,but I ain't .. I try to remain open to new ideas..like the idea of a Mother God,for instance.

Have a good one ...

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You too, Torog. :)