Gaza aid flotilla attacked, 10 killed

Since you only seem to understand cut-n-paste politics, here ya go:


Who Chose Hamas to Lead Them? | FrontPage MagazineWho Chose Hamas to Lead Them?
To understand the people of Gaza, who now lay claim to the passions of humanitarians-without-a-cause, one might begin by considering Gazansâ?? freely elected leadership: the Hamas terror network. And to understand Hamas, one might begin by looking closely at the Hamas logo. The logoâ??s center features swords and a golden-domed structure, but the squiggle at the top-center of the logo is most descriptive. One squiggle is worth a thousand words. That squiggle is not an Arabic symbol but the map of Israel.

Look even more carefully: the squiggle â?? the map of Israel depicted on the Hamas logo â?? primarily is pre-1967 Israel. It is Israel without the Gaza Strip. Hamas has no designs on the Gaza Strip it controls. Rather, leveraging Gaza as a springboard for its actual aspiration, Hamas illustratively has designs on the only Palestine it ever has coveted: the Palestine that now is called â??the State of Israel.â?� As Jew-hating journalist Helen Thomas recently said about Israelis, â??Tell them to get the hell out of Palestine. Remember, these [Arab] people are occupied, and itâ??s their land.â?� The Jews, Thomas added, can go back where they come from â?? â??Poland. Germany. . . . And America and everywhere else.â?� (Reflecting ignorance all too common among the White House press corps, Thomas is unaware that the majority of Israelis are children of the Middle East, descendants of the 850,000 Jews exiled by Northern African Arab dictatorships during the years Israel was being founded.)

The only â??Palestineâ?� that ever existed was always synonymous with the Jewish homeland that later was renamed â??Israelâ?� in 1948. Rent a copy of the 1960 movie â??Exodus.â?� Listen dispassionately to the dialogue. Donâ??t take sides. Just listen for definitions. The British, fairly or unfairly, are depicted as the bad guys in the movie, trying to keep the Jews out of â??Palestine.â?� Paul Newman is trying to get the Jews into â??Palestine.â?� Everyone watching the movie perceives that â??Palestineâ?� is a name that refers synonymously with â??Israel.â?� Thus, what we seem to have had here is a failure to communicate. It could not be simpler: For the past two thousand years, since the Romans renamed the land of Israel after they expelled and exiled the Jews, â??Israelâ?� always was synonymous with â??Palestine,â?� and â??Palestineâ?� always was â??Israel.â?�

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/01/wo...01rockets.html

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Israel's history of bomb blasts
September 2000. Below are some of the most deadly.
2005

25 February: Four people are killed and at least 30 people are injured in a bomb blast outside a night club in Tel Aviv, weeks after Israeli and Palestinian leaders declare a truce.


2004

1 November: A teenage suicide bomber kills at least three people in the crowded Carmel market in Tel Aviv.

31 August: At least 16 people are killed and dozens are injured in two near-simultaneous suicide bombings on two buses in the southern city of Beersheba.

11 July: One person is killed and 21 are wounded by a bomb packed with metal bolts, which explodes near a bus stop in Tel Aviv.

14 March: A double suicide bombing kills 10 Israelis in the port of Ashdod on the Mediterranean coast.

22 February: A Palestinian suicide bomber kills eight people and injures dozens in an attack on an Israeli bus in Jerusalem.

29 January: A suicide bomber kills 11 people and injures around 50 on a bus in Jerusalem.

14 January: Hamas female suicide bomber kills four Israelis on the border with Gaza and injures seven.

2003

4 October: A suicide bomber blows herself up in a packed Haifa restaurant, killing at least 19 people including three children.

9 September: Two separate suicide attacks leave at least 15 people dead and scores wounded in Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

In the first attack, at least eight people were killed - including the bomber - at the entrance to the Tzrifin Israeli Defence Force base, near Tel Aviv.

Hours later, a bomb attack outside a popular cafe in west Jerusalem left at least seven dead.

19 August: A suicide bomber wrecks a bus in Jerusalem, killing at least 20 people and injuring up to 100 others, in a serious blow to peace efforts. Hours later, Israel halts the handover of West Bank towns and cuts off contacts with Palestinians officials.

12 August: At least four people are killed and dozens injured in two suicide attacks by Palestinian bombers in Israel and the West Bank.

In the first attack, an explosion rips through a shopping centre in the central Israeli town of Rosh Haayin near Tel Aviv, killing two people and injuring at least 10 others.

Shortly afterwards, another suicide bomber blows himself up among a group of Israeli soldiers at a bus stop outside the Jewish settlement of Ariel, in the West Bank.

19 June: A suicide bomber kills himself and an Israeli man, owner of a grocery shop in Sde Trumot, a small village a few kilometres from the West Bank in northern Israel.

11 June: Sixteen people are killed in a bus bomb in Jerusalem, in the first suicide attack since US President Bush's peace summit a week before. It follows an Israeli air strike on 10 June aimed at killing Hamas leader Abdel-Aziz al-Rantissi in Gaza.

Within an hour of the bus attack, Israeli helicopters launch another attack in Gaza, killing several people, reportedly including a top militant.

19 May: At least three people are killed and 18 injured in a suicide attack on a shopping mall in the northern Israeli town of Afula. The bomber is reported to have been a woman.
Earlier, three Israeli soldiers in the Gaza Strip are injured when a suicide bomber riding a bicycle detonate explosives strapped to his body.

18 May: Seven people are killed when a suicide bomber blows himself up on board a bus in northern Jerusalem. A second attacker kills himself minutes later as emergency crews arrive but no-one else is seriously hurt. The blasts come hours after Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon held the first talks with his Palestinian counterpart, Mahmoud Abbas, better known as Abu Mazen.

17 May: A Palestinian suicide bomber disguised as a religious Jew kills an Israeli man and his pregnant wife in the West Bank town of Hebron.

Sorry, there were MULTIPLE Hamas figures onboard those boats....two of which were released in a prisoner exchange with Palestine. Israel broke no International laws and NOTHING will come of this except more saber rattling from the Islamofascist cowards of the middle east and the bigots here in the states. Story over. Poor peace activists.

So the boats, with confirmed Hamas members onboard, DID pose a threat and Israel acted WELL within its rights. If it hadn't, we could have expected the Obama administrations lawyers to come down on the side of Palestine....which they didnt.

And they will continue to raid each and every other boat that tries to run their blockade and nothing will come of it.......Reuters and the BBC can doctor all the pics they want.

The only outrage I can see is that Major League Baseball doesn't send any scouts to Palestine....some of those rock throwers have an arm and the Astros need some quality starters.

Its this "if only the Palestinians had a state, the violence would stop" BS mantra i hear that sets me off.....GET REAL!!! The palestinians could have had a state a LONG time ago IF they had wanted one, thats NEVER been a priority.

Then we have the american libs who blabber on and on and on about "occupation". Sorry dudes, Gaza isnt occupied and HASN'T been for YEARS, and the violence has increased contrary to liberal predictions here AND in Israel.

The Palestinians want the destruction of Israel and the Jews worldwide.....not a fucking state. When that ideology is wiped away, the violence will stop....if not.....it will continue. Racism and and the supremist ideology is rampant in the Middle East......mostly among muslims.....sorry,facts are facts. If you dont like that go report me.:thumbsup:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Islandborn

Then we have the american libs who blabber on and on and on about "occupation". Sorry dudes, Gaza isnt occupied and HASN'T been for YEARS, and the violence has increased contrary to liberal predictions here AND in Israel.

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How do you understand occupation? What constitutes freedom from occupation? Clearly you have not given this much thought so let me give you some insights.

Freedom from occupation means control over land, territorial waters, borders, natural resources, and population. Israel evacuated it's soldiers and colonies from the Gaza Strip but it maintains control over the borders, imports and exports, territorial waters, airspace, and the population. Israel determines who and what is entitled to enter, exit, and remain in Gaza. This is occupation my friend. I invite you to show us how this is not so but since you do not deal with facts I'm guessing you will continue to obfuscate with half truths and personal attacks. So transparent.

Let's clear up something else (assuming that you read this far). Under international law Palestinians have the right to resist armed occupation by force of arms. Plain and simple. You can not escape the fact that Israel invaded and occupies these territories by force of arms.

I have given you some clear facts. See if you can refute them. If you can't resort to name calling and bating.

Regarding the classification of 'occupation':
(my comments italicized and in parentheses)
An interview with Malcolm Smart, director of Middle East and North Africa at Amnesty International:
Amnesty: Gaza is Still Under Israeli Occupation - Page1
Question by interviewer) "What is required of Israel to stop it from being an occupying force under Amnestyâ??s definition?
Answer by good ol' Malcolm) That there will be another sovereign power and that the border crossings to Gaza not be under Israeli control. Thatâ??s the meaning of occupation, thereâ??s no other sovereign power there, thereâ??s no control over the border crossings for free movement of people and goods and thatâ??s why Gaza is under occupation.

Is an exit by the Navy from Gazaâ??s waters an end to the occupation?
No.

Is opening the border crossings with Israel ending the occupation?
Thatâ??s a step towards ending the occupation.

Can Israel not ever close the border crossings to Gaza?
Assuming that another sovereign power will be there, there can be international border crossings. Thatâ??s not the situation as of today.

Hamas is defined as a sovereign power by the Goldstone committee which treated it as â??the authority of Gazaâ?� and is internationally recognized by a large number of countries.
It receives recognition as a de facto regime. The question of the Israeli occupation is not related to Hamas. Itâ??s connected with Israelâ??s actions.

So what actions must Israel take? You say that the occupation ends if Israel opens the crossings, so if the occupation ends, Israel needs to close the borders since Gaza is defined as an enemy state. Thereâ??s a logical contradiction here.
I donâ??t understand where the contradiction is.
(avoids the question)

The border between Israel and Lebanon is closed since Lebanon is an enemy state. Youâ??re claiming that Israel needs to open the borders to Gaza and then the occupation will end. And then Israel will have to close the crossings.
Iâ??ll ask you another question. Can Lebanon control the transfer of goods and people to Lebanon not opposite Israel but opposite other countries?
(avoids the question)

So the problem is with the control by sea and air. If the seas are open there is no occupation?
Of course, had it been possible to enter Gaza freely through the air, by sea and land, that would certainly be one component of the occupation ending.

What are all the components to end the occupation? Amnesty does not present a plan in which Israel stops the occupation. It says that Israel needs to stop the occupation and deepen the occupation by opening the borders. I donâ??t comprehend that.
Amnesty International does not deal with solving conflicts.
(but they do deal with assisting conflicts)

Itâ??s not conflict solving. Itâ??s ending the occupation. Amnesty says that Gaza is under occupation. According to Amnesty, what actions must Israel take in order to stop the occupation?
One of the things which need to be done is to allow the passage of people and goods through the air, the sea and land. Thatâ??s one component. There are other components related to agreements of the international community since Amnesty International does not deal with solving conflicts. It only addresses the question of whether the situation is adequate in relation to international humanitarian law and international standards. It doesnâ??t deal with solving the conflict, not here or anywhere else.

If Amnesty claims that thereâ??s an occupation there should be a definition of when thereâ??s no occupation. Amnesty claims that Israel needs to open all the crossings for free movement from Gaza to Israel and remove the sea and land siege on Gaza, meaning let Gaza be open to the entire world with no connection to Israel, but under those circumstances the occupation no longer exists. So why is there a need to transfer supplies to Gaza? Does Amnesty by the same logic demand the American forces in Afghanistan to help the Taliban? And take care of the sick among the Taliban? Thatâ??s the question, when does the occupation end?
I admit that I donâ??t understand the question. Iâ??m unclear as to what kind of answer you expect.
(yup...got to where he's at by being an undereducated parrot without the capacity ot express his views)

I am expecting to receive an answer to whether if Israel withdraws its forces from the waters of Gaza, allow the passage of goods to Gaza without inspection, remove the air control of the Gaza Strip and open it to free movement, the occupation will end and Israel will no longer be responsible for Gaza and only for marginal issues, thatâ??s what I expect Amnesty to say.
There are other components of electricity, water. These things do not stand on their own. Removing the siege is one step towards ending the occupation. There are components involving all the aspects of life in Gaza: Social, economic and cultural. Removing the siege is one important step to end the occupation and there are other steps.

What are the necessary steps on which you can elaborate?
One, allow the Palestinians in Gaza free access to drinking water. Israel hasnâ??t done this in all the years of the occupation until now, and it has a responsibility to ensure that Gazaâ??s residents have access to water. The same thing goes for health services. For dozens of years the rights of those residents have been prevented and the formations of civil infrastructures were prevented and this became worse during the attacks of last year, and a large part of those infrastructures were destroyed and not rebuilt to this day. This is an obligation of which Israel cannot free itself.

Itâ??s an obligation of which Israel cannot free itself, but it has nothing to do with the occupation. Those are two different things.
Itâ??s related to the situation of the continuing occupation.
(sure about that...?)

Amnesty claims that Israel is an occupying country and is responsible for the welfare of Gazaâ??s residents. According to this definition, does Israel need to act against the Hamas government in order to care for the welfare and safety of Gazaâ??s residents?
The State of Israel has an obligation to protect its citizens. It has an obligation to distinguish between military targets and civil targets. When Israel hit legitimate military targets we did not criticize it, because we are not a pacifist organization and we donâ??t deal with conflict solving, so when Israel hit military targets you didnâ??t hear any criticism from Amnesty. We certainly criticize Hamas for the internal violence it applies, the illegal executions and imprisonments. We sounded very strong criticism against Hamasâ?? conduct on these issues.

The question is whether Israel is committed, being an occupying force as Amnesty defines, to be concerned for the welfare of Gazaâ??s residents and therefore act against the Hamas government and the Palestinian terrorist organizations that control Gaza, in order to protect the Palestinian population?
Israel has a duty to protect its citizens. (round-n-round)

Amnestyâ??s messages said that Israel should take care to protect the people of Gaza. Is the issue of the security of the people of Gaza not an authority which Israel has?
Israelâ??s duty is to protect its citizens and ensure that the people of Gaza enjoy all the social and economic rights recognized in international law and in the Geneva convention.

So if Hamas is violating the rights of the Palestinians in the Gaza Strip to live, as defined in international law, does Israel not have the authority to act against the Hamas government to care for the safety of the people of Gaza?
The problem is first and foremost the rights of the people of Gaza which Israel violates by the illegal siege. (round-n-round)


[I]So Hamas (ruling the Plaestinian people) will not provide for it's people, because it's Israel, and it's Israels responsibility. But if it's Israels responsibility, shouldn't Israel forceably remove Hamas for it's human rights abuses to it's own people? For Hamas using the Palestinian civilian women and children as human shields from which they fire rockets into Israel, blowing-up busses and nightclubs killing hundreds of civilians, and similar cowardly acts? For channeling funding (mainly from the UN, USA, Europe, all Arab nations...) into military attacks rather than improving infrastructure and providing for their people? The actions of Hamas bely their position of wanting an independent state of free people. They want a closer access to Israel proper for a higher casulity count from rocket attacks into Israeli cities.

The Goldstone report was then and is now a TOTAL joke....Israel was guilty before it even started.......your gonna have to get up ALOT earlier than that.

Goldstone report......... lmao.

Heres a quick run down of this highschoolish paper, almost as highschoolish as the UN's IDIOTIC science behind their man-made global warming charade. The UN is a unrespected group worldwide.....no nation gives a shit what they have to say anymore. IRAN SITS ON ITS HUMAN RIGHTS COMMISION. They stoned a woman to death 2 weeks ago for dressing sexy.....STONED HER TO DEATH. Sorry if I mock the coward filled United Nations.

CAMERA: The Goldstone Report: A Study in Duplicity

I personally can post videos of Hamas hiding in civilian clothes and running into Mosques to shoot mortars.

Israel encourages any muslim finatic or their western peace activist friends to bring it on....they are waiting for ya:D

people can howl and scream all they want....but no boat is going into Gaza without being searched first, thats it. Nothings gonna change about that....nothing. Once the boats are cleared, the cargo is shipped into Gaza which you can also find in video. I'll give Hamas some credit on their PR....its getting better. Its just our info moves MUCH faster and we bust their sympathizers in the media....its fun. Im looking at you Reuters and BBC bigots. They dont even pay actual reporters anymore.....they hire the terrorists personally for good video's and then crop and alter them to fit their agenda. Its not complicated.

Is Helen Thomas in Poland yet? Bet she wont go to Israel cause bigots and racists are cowards deep down.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome

The actions of Hamas bely their position of wanting an independent state of free people. They want a closer access to Israel proper for a higher casulity count from rocket attacks into Israeli cities.

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Closer access? What are you talking about? Down town Gaza city is only 20 kilometers from Sderot. I thought we were talking about rockets here? A rocket, a real rocket, cover 20 kilometers with little difficulty. If these were real rockets then this little distance would not be an issue. You use the term rockets as if we're talking about a scud or even a katusha type of weapon. These are glorified bottle rockets were talking about. And since you bring it up and as it proves my point, what is the number of casualties inflicted by these terrible weapons? Since you don't know let me tell you. Between 2000 and today there have been 22 Israelis and 1 Thai killed. Wow what a fearsome threat to the existence of Israel.

You need to stop you knee jerk response to support Israel blindly. Recognized that US interests and what Israel perceives to be their interests are not always one and the same. And if you claim that you can separate US and Israelis interests please give us an example.

This is a useless exercise. People who only cite CAMERA, MEMRI, the Washington Report for Near East Affairs are not serious. You are not critical thinkers. You do not look for a true examination of the facts. In many ways you remind me of myself when I was nineteen. I held similar views on Israel and US affairs.

Let me ask you Islandborn, delusionsofNORMALity, and Rusty, have you ever been to a refugee camp - any refugee camp? Bonus points if you've been to a Palestinian refugee camp. Have you been to Gaza or even the West Bank? If yes, in what capacity?

I served my country (America). I spent 15 years in and out of the Middle East including 5 years living in Gaza, Tel Aviv, Jerusalem, and the West Bank. I spend an additional 5 years living in Jordan where I was responsible for regional operations taking me to the cities and camps of Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, and back to Israel, the West Bank and Gaza. I have spent the past 5 years providing support for global operations in the Muslim world (Indonesia to Morocco) with a variety of government and private sector concerns. I'll throw in my 2 degrees focused on Middle East Relations and USG certified (and paid for) Arabic language proficiency via training in the US and Tunisia for good measure. I have been shot at repeatedly by all sides to this mess and I have given back. I have the PTSD to show for it.

I started where you are today. I thought that what was good for Israel was good for the US - that our interests were one. But I quickly learned that Americans are not being given the truth. We have been fed a menu of half truths and lies so that we will support the ongoing suppression of the Palestinian national rights and the theft of their land. I understood this after my first visit to the Gaza as a 19 year old wet-behind-the-ears punk. So I studied and I read, from all sources, not just those that I agree with.

Israel is not a democracy - don't fool yourself. Democracies don't occupy and disenfranchise millions of people. Perhaps you could argue Israel is a democracy for Jewish Israelis but that leaves 1/5 of the population out of the equation, not to mention the millions living under occupation. Wow, that is some democracy.

The problem that the US and Israel now face is that they have closed the door to a two state solution, so what is left?

A. Dismantle and withdraw the settlers to create a viable Palestinian state (a recipe for civil war with the religious crazies in Israel and we know who wins that fight).
B. Declare a bi-national state and give everyone the vote within a single polity call it what you want.
C. Expel the Palestinians (very much an option with a government that includes racist like Rafi Etian and Avigdor Lieberman),
D. Continued disenfranchisement of the Palestinians while taking more and more of their land.

So what does that leave us with? A and B are non-starters. C is an option but least preferred due to the ramifications. Which leaves us with D - Israel will become more and more of an apartheid state. That leaves you to defend an increasingly apartheid style regime. Good luck with that. Oh and if you have not lived with the occupation please don't tell me that does not constitute apartheid. I do not want my country going any further down this road. Either we impose a two state solution or we start to withdraw our support from the Israeli state.

So let's hear it Islandborn, delusionsofNORMALity, and Rusty, what are your credentials? What do you bring to the table? I do not expect a serious answer because you are not serious people. Your strategy is to yell and scream, stir up jingoistic anger, and name call. You are not interested in facts because facts force you into uncomfortable realizations.