First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
Quote:
Originally Posted by farredeyed
So if i were to revise this rough little schedule here to give you a visual of how I'm interprating that
Fr.....<---------------------------------------------------------->
R......<------------------------------------------------>
B......<------------------>
........0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23
would that be more optimised? or do you mean you can have more blue "day" time?
It all depends! What spectrums are you talking about? Different color spectrums operate at different rates, even within the ranges of Red and Far Red that you're talking about. Phytochrome is most sensitive at ~660/735, so the farther you get away from that, the less stimulated phytochrome is by the same wattage of light, so the effect on the plant's clock is less. You'd also have to consider intensity at some point. You're asking what the timing is without cosidering the rate of the spectrum. Both are very important aspects because it seems to be that it takes a certain amount of biologically-active phychrome Pr to be present for a certain amount of time for flowering to occur. The spectrum affects the rate, so to maintain the same (rate x time) product, you'd need to adjust your timing accordingly. You're on the right track, though, by putting more Far Red than Red, but for me understanding the relationship is Far more important than knowing the numbers. :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by farredeyed
I was kind of wondering with a schedule like the first one if the increased rate of conversion between pFr and pR affect the speed of the plants overall lifecycle like an instant autoflowerer, or even just to see what happens out of curiosity. assuming I've not gotten the wrong idea that that red and far red don't disturb the plants perception of night and that an equal amount of far red can revert phytochrome in a time equal to the red's photsynthetic period.
I'm very curious what kind of Martian night would be good for an autoflowerer. Great question.
I think that you have still got a different impression than I got. :D Red and Far Red absolutely do affect the plant's perception of night. That's what I've been meaning when I'm talking about the plant's "clock". It's the plant's perception of how fast the night is actually happening. Red makes it slower, Far Red makes it faster, but not necessarily at the same rate. I don't know what the numbers are, that's why I have this grow log! :D
Sal has them, and they're in for publishing, so he can't share them yet. In the mean time, I started this log to try and guess. :thumbsup:
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
About the leaves, I have no idea. I haven't really asked too many questions of the plant considering the crazy lighting that I've given it. :D It's in some sort of veg/flower limbo and I think they're starting to lean toward flowering, so I think I'm getting close on the timing schedule.
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
Quote:
It's in some sort of veg/flower limbo and I think they're starting to lean toward flowering
this was on that USDA webpage too, I got my weird alternating red/far red schedule idea from some of what i read on that page.
"On April 9, 1952, the loose-knit team of scientists came up with another magnificently simple find. Seed hit with red light germinated unless it was then hit with far-red; but if red again ensued, it would germinate. Incredibly, all that mattered was which color came last even if the seed was struck by 100 alternating cycles of red and far-red.
That summer, the researchers confirmed the same switchability in flowering. Test plants flowered only if far-red light ended the sequence." - "Tripping the Light Switch Fantastic" was published in the September 1991 issue of Agricultural Research magazine.
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
Quote:
Originally Posted by farredeyed
this was on that USDA webpage too, I got my weird alternating red/far red schedule idea from some of what i read on that page.
"On April 9, 1952, the loose-knit team of scientists came up with another magnificently simple find. Seed hit with red light germinated unless it was then hit with far-red; but if red again ensued, it would germinate. Incredibly, all that mattered was which color came last even if the seed was struck by 100 alternating cycles of red and far-red.
That summer, the researchers confirmed the same switchability in flowering. Test plants flowered only if far-red light ended the sequence." - "Tripping the Light Switch Fantastic" was published in the September 1991 issue of Agricultural Research magazine.
That makes sense why you had that schedule in your mind, but the government has pulled a fast one on you (are you in the least bit surprised?)
When they say "That summer, the researchers confirmed the same switchability in flowering." they're misleading you. It's a similar switchability, probably based on the same mechanisms (phytochrome) but with different results. If you check out some Red/Far Red studies on Google scholar, you'll see they have similar findings about the effects of Red and Far Red with one, very important difference: this part does not hold true with live plants: "Incredibly, all that mattered was which color came last even if the seed was struck by 100 alternating cycles of red and far-red." In studies with live plants, the more back-and-forth that happens between Red and Far Red during the night, the less likely the plant is to flower.
My take on why this is (take with several grains of salt :D):
If we assume (and I am in fact ONLY ASSUMING THIS IS TRUE) that Red is a little more effective than Far Red at manipulating the clock, you can see why both the proportion of R:FR and total amount of Red and Far Red are important to whether or not flowering will occur.
I base my assumption of Red and Far Red efficacy on the fact that a red incandescent bulb emits more Far Red than Red light (look at a spectral graph), but is still slower than total darkness (look at my and Dogz RedInc all-night tests). It is quite possible this assumption is not correct, but it makes sense in my mind and seems to line up with the evidence that I see.
The gov't was looking at it like a "switch" (hence you being led to believe that's the way it works) but it's more like a clock. The Red slows the clock down, and the Far Red speeds it back up. However, the Far Red doesn't speed it back up quite as much as Red slows it down, so with more and more switching means more and more Red light (in an absolute sense) which is being counterbalanced by more and more Far Red (also in an absolute sense) that doesn't have the same efficacy of Red light, so the night, overall, gets slower and slower with more switching back and forth. At some point, it becomes too slow to sustain flowering.
The reason they would see better results with Far Red being the last color used is because it makes the overall ratio of R:FR closer to what it should be for the whole night with a diminishing ratio as more switching occurs.
Example (assuming 15 mins of illumination each):
R-FR-R = 30 mins Red, 15 mins Far Red, 2:1 ratio
R-FR-R-FR = 30 mins Red, 30 mins Far Red, 1:1 ratio
R-FR-R-FR-R = 45 mins Red, 30 mins Far Red, 3:2 ratio
R-FR-R-FR-R-FR = 45 mins Red, 45 mins Far Red, 1:1 ratio
R-FR-R-FR-R-FR-R = 60 mins Red, 45 mins Far Red, 4:3 ratio
etc.
So after any number of switches that ends on Far Red, you always end with a 1:1 ratio, but if Red slows more than Far Red speeds, the overall effect is slower, and the more switches you have, the slower it gets.
That's my best guess. :thumbsup:
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
I'd say i think i finally see the light :D that makes sense of almost all of it.
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
Ya that post is good.. But the second paragraph says something about the plants being faster. I'm not sure if I read that correctly or not. But I have grown 3 times using a Procyon 100 and my plants were slower by about 2-3 weeks every time and we tried using 14 hours of dark (no go). There is know far red with that light at all, So now I see why the plants were slower using that led light. As far as the second paragraph goes all I know is using RED light in what normally would be the plants 12 hour dark time also slows the plants clock down i.e.(using red CFL's only in Martian nights). When far red is added to the mix i.e.(red INC.'s bulbs) the plants clock speeds up but not as much as (NID). The trick is going to be using far red light "only" during some of the plant dark period to speed back up the clock that was slowed down using red light in the Martian nights.. Did that make sense. LOL. I would think we will need to run far red light "only" about half of the amount of on time that red and far red light is being used in the Martian nights, just to keep the plants clock on time. again JMO:thumbsup:
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
Quote:
The trick is going to be using far red light "only"
Ok, if that's where you're at, it's untested, and unproven but here's my idea to get far red only, on the cheap...
Infrared IR Laser Illuminator Circuit Build Instructions Schematic
scratch the batteries, use an old little ac/dc transformer power pack with a suitable voltage and sufficient current output. scratch the optics he picks, they dont spread the beam enough, try 10x gem scope or find an old photocopier and pick through its parts, old dvd burners that don't work so well anymore.. there are plenty of places to get free or close to free lens's and the laser he picks is too high in the IR range, a CD burner or the cd burning laser from a cd/dvd/multi unit burner has in ir laser with a 780nm frequency that gives off a very dim red color (to the human eye, don't look directly at it!) is very available and easily sourceable. My only speculation about the method here is, is the bandwidth from the 780nm wide enough to be in range to effect the Pfr.
playing with lasers can be really dangerous tho, if anyone out there is experimenting with this stuff like I am, please wear eye protection. If you power up a cdrom laser and think it isnt doing anything look at it through a digital camcorder or cellphone camera, don't pick it up and look into it.
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
This might work also..... Reptile lights are Infrared. If you remember sal said Infrared could be the same as far red (post #70 of this tread). This is something worth the Google IMO. Local fish and pet stores should have all kinds of reptile bulbs. Google this (Infrared Ceramic Heat Emitters) no light just infrared. Worth a try ..
First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"
Quote:
Originally Posted by farredeyed
Ok, if that's where you're at, it's untested, and unproven
Far red with darkness happens every day outdoors I think. It's proven and tested.:thumbsup: Green house effect is one.
