First attempt at a 24-hour "Martian Method"

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Originally Posted by Mother

Dog,If how I understand the process is accurate, then it would seem logical that the Far Red in the daytime should also count towards speeding up the plant's clock. And that means the Red during the daytime would also count towards slowing the plant's clock. When you change to a higher K bulb, you're adding blue, but you're also taking away Red, which means there may to be a higher proportion of FR:R, which would speed up your plant's clock and mess with your experiment about blue light. It's just a thought, not sure if it's right..

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This is exactly what we are missing..some Bulk and some Speed.. Thanks for helping me understand that. I want to tell my uncle that same thing.

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Originally Posted by Mother

Your pics look good. I can't really say anything about you using a camcorder because look at me, I have no working camera at all! :( My HDF looks way more veggy than yours :D There's a full stem out the top of the cola with more growth on it..

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Yes they seem to be ok. Every time I go there my uncle has the PPM at about 1450. personally I like to keep it around 1000. I keep putting it back down at least once a week when he's not there.:D

Hi Mother.....This will be our bulb selection this time. The first three weeks will be this 2,200k bulb (first pic). Then from week 4-8 will be this 4k bulb (second pic) best spectrum on the planet IMO. Then we will put a 10K bulb in for the last week or so (can't find pic) Can someone help with this..

I think using these bulbs will not be removing much red but adding red and far red until the 10k bulb (but that will be the last week or so)

All of this will be with the Martian light on in one form or another.

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You're close, but manipulating the speed at which phytochrome conversion takes place is not the point, it's the method. The point is to increase the total amount of photosynthesis, which in turn drives more plant growth. Since flowering requires no less than 12 hours of "darkness", we cannot simply leave the day lights on longer to get more photosynthesis. Instead, we add light to the night period that will not trigger the plant's daytime sensors (i.e. no light below 500 nm) but will still run the plant's photosynthetic engines.

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From all the homework I've done, I think knowing the speed may be pertanant, I'm still collecting some new bulbs but I want to test out a theory that something to the effect of this may get the best photosythetic response for a flowering schedule

Fr................<------>...........<------>...........<------>
R......<------>...........<------>...........<------>
Or.....<------------------------------------------------>
B......<------------------>
........0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

or should red blaze the full 22 hours? I'm not sure what would be the most efficient but i want to test the two against each other. But from looking at all the charts I've seen I'm not sure if sustained far red is nescisary to 'charge the pigment back up' or just a short length ie 5-15 min is what's needed to 'kick off' the conversion.

I'm only assuming turning the red off during the conversion time adds electrical efficiency to wait untill the plants pigments are ready to feed from red at max efficiency

but then again, those red inc bulbs that were ~ 1.15:1 Fr:R seemed to keep the pigment in a state that allowed red light absorbtion pretty well. I don't know its just a theory, but one I'll have to test out if no-one beats me to it...

P.s. mother hows the grow?

P.s.s. I'm working on a little program for a webcam to fit in a home made spectragraph and read color bands and intensity to give a metered graph of light sources... I'll try to share resources with anyone interesed in having their own spectrometer that has a pc, webcam, and cardboard tubing

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Originally Posted by farredeyed

...P.s.s. I'm working on a little program for a webcam to fit in a home made spectragraph and read color bands and intensity to give a metered graph of light sources... I'll try to share resources with anyone interesed in having their own spectrometer that has a pc, webcam, and cardboard tubing

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Hey there Mr. Farady;)

I got a nickle.
Anna webcam,
anna 'pooter,
an' cardboard tubes up the... No, wait.
Let's just say I gotta tube or two.
Can I tag along?:stoned:
:D
Weezard

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Can I tag along?

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let's not take over this thread but sure, get a jump on the project by making your "DIY spectrograph" -see: Google

I'll link to the software that does the webcam magic as soon as I can finish it up

but basically I'm mounting a webcam to the viewport on my spectragraph tube measuring light intensity, per pixel, in area's of the image that the webcam grabs, it may require some calibration between different webcams, i only have one, but I'll be sure to come here to find testers

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Originally Posted by farredeyed

From all the homework I've done, I think knowing the speed may be pertanant, I'm still collecting some new bulbs but I want to test out a theory that something to the effect of this may get the best photosythetic response for a flowering schedule

Fr................<------>...........<------>...........<------>
R......<------>...........<------>...........<------>
Or.....<------------------------------------------------>
B......<------------------>
........0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

or should red blaze the full 22 hours? I'm not sure what would be the most efficient but i want to test the two against each other. But from looking at all the charts I've seen I'm not sure if sustained far red is nescisary to 'charge the pigment back up' or just a short length ie 5-15 min is what's needed to 'kick off' the conversion.

I'm only assuming turning the red off during the conversion time adds electrical efficiency to wait untill the plants pigments are ready to feed from red at max efficiency

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Hmm, I need to clarify what I meant from what you quoted me, and I think that might make clarify things in a way that will answer your questions. :)

I said "Since flowering requires no less than 12 hours of "darkness", we cannot simply leave the day lights on longer to get more photosynthesis."

But taken as stated, that's not correct. Sorry to have got you off on the wrong foot. What I meant was that at the rate that phytochrome converts (Pfr->Pr) in total darkness, the process takes 12 hours. You can make the process take much more or less time by altering the night spectrum. Red light slows this conversion (reverses it, actually) and Far Red speeds it up. Whatever you choose to do with the night spectrum, you need the equivalent amount of conversion for flowering. If you blast the plant with Red all night, the conversion rate (aka the plant's clock rate, remember ;)) slows down to a near stand-still. You'll never get flowering out of a plant that way because you slowed the clock down waaay too much. Think if it as a "total amount of progress made" sort of equation. Red light makes less progress toward Pfr->Pr conversion, but more progress toward photosynthesis. Far Red light makes more progress towards Pfr->Pr conversion, but makes no difference to photosynthesis. This is how we can add photosynthesis but keep the phytochrome progress on track.

Remember that phytochrome conversion rate manipulation is not the point, it's the method. ("The method" meaning the method we use to keep the plant flowering) :) It doesn't need to be "charged back up" nor does the process get "kicked off". The process happens at a directly proportional rate to the light spectrum the plant is receiving, no more, no less (total darkness included). Phytochrome conversion is not connected to photosynthesis, both phytochrome conversion and photosynthesis are controlled by light spectrum. It's because they're both controlled by the light spectrum that when we manipulate one, the other gets manipulated as well. Therefore, we don't need to worry how phytochrome relates to photosynthesis. Instead, we need to consider what spectrum we can use that will maximize photosynthesis while keeping the phytochrome conversion rate in balance.

I hope that makes it more clear and that I haven't confused you too much in the process. I believe this should largely answer your question about spectrum, and probably cause you to pose a new one. :D As always, this is as I understand it and I make no guarantees that I'm right.

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Originally Posted by farredeyed

but then again, those red inc bulbs that were ~ 1.15:1 Fr:R seemed to keep the pigment in a state that allowed red light absorbtion pretty well. I don't know its just a theory, but one I'll have to test out if no-one beats me to it...

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Be careful if quoting numbers that are rough estimates, doing so will make them seem as fact.

Your home-brew spectrometer idea sounds great! Keep us up to date on the progress... I'd like to see it in action! :thumbsup:

First pic, main cola of HDF
Second pic, main stem of BK
Third pic, space with all four plants in it. The one on the left is Vanilla Moon, the one on the right is HDF.

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I said "Since flowering requires no less than 12 hours of "darkness", we cannot simply leave the day lights on longer to get more photosynthesis."

But taken as stated, that's not correct. Sorry to have got you off on the wrong foot. What I meant was that at the rate that phytochrome converts (Pfr->Pr) in total darkness, the process takes 12 hours. You can make the process take much more or less time by altering the night spectrum. Red light makes less progress toward Pfr->Pr conversion, but more progress toward photosynthesis. Far Red light makes more progress towards Pfr->Pr conversion, but makes no difference to photosynthesis. This is how we can add photosynthesis but keep the phytochrome progress on track.

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So if i were to revise this rough little schedule here to give you a visual of how I'm interprating that
Fr.....<---------------------------------------------------------->
R......<------------------------------------------------>
B......<------------------>
........0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

would that be more optimised? or do you mean you can have more blue "day" time?

I was kind of wondering with a schedule like the first one if the increased rate of conversion between pFr and pR affect the speed of the plants overall lifecycle like an instant autoflowerer, or even just to see what happens out of curiosity. assuming I've not gotten the wrong idea that that red and far red don't disturb the plants perception of night and that an equal amount of far red can revert phytochrome in a time equal to the red's photsynthetic period.

Hay farredeyed... What ratio of each spectrum do you plan on using? If that blue is too strong in your spectrum you might not even be able run it that long.