Icarus, if you don't believe in evolution then God is making a monkey out of you.
Blind faith only leads to war.
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Icarus, if you don't believe in evolution then God is making a monkey out of you.
Blind faith only leads to war.
It seems like the thread may have gotten a little off track with different poeple debating the relative merits of the theory of evolution and other theories, and having fun poking holes in each other's arguments.
My take on "Some front line views of the war against God," is that the discussion topic started out being about the video trailer in the first post and about how Ben Stein and other intelligent design proponents feel persecuted because they feel questioning Darwinism can damage their careers. Without actually seeing Ben Stein's Expelled movie, I can't be sure, but I think it is probably about whether or not intelligent design should be taught as an alternative to evolutionary theory in science classes in US public schools. This has been an ongoing battle in the US public school system for years, with proponents of creationism and intelligent design attempting to get their alternative explanations added to the public school curriculum, or to have the limitations of Darwinism taught.
My feeling is that this conflict should be more accurately called "The war against Science," rather than "The war against God."
Unless you believe in the literal truth of the creation story in the Bible, science and religion are not in conflict. If you believe that God literally created the universe in 6 days about 6000 years ago, then there is a conflict. But otherwise, the two are not in conflict. Science does not attempt to address the ultimate cause for existence. An intelligent person can accept the scientific theories for cosmology and evolution and still believe in God as the ultimate creator --- many scientists do believe. Likewise, an intelligent person can accept those scientific theories and not believe in God or a creator --- many scientists do not believe. God is outside the realm of science.
Science addresses observable, measureable phenomena and then attempts to explain the physical mechanisms of how those phenomena occur. In the case of evolution, science observes the phenomenon of the diversity of species in different geographical locations and at different times in the fossil record and proposes a physical mechanism for how that diversity occured over time. Science sticks to the physical phenomena and the physical mechanism --- it does not address whether the phenomenon is part of "God's plan" or ultimately driven by a creator or designer that is not part of the physical phenomenon under consideration. That is a matter of faith, not science. If you choose to believe that there is a supernatural force, creator, God, designer or whatever you want to call it, that is your business, but if it cannot be physically observed or measured, science cannot address it one way or another.
It is an assault on science to try to insert any kind of unobservable or unmeasurable force as the mechanism whereby phenomena occur. Most assaults on evolution take the form of finding a phenomenon that is not adequately explained by the theory and then saying it cannot be attributed to a purely physical mechanism, so it must be due to an intelligent designer, a creator, a God, or other unmeasurable force. For example, a critic of evolution might point to a gap in the fossil record and say that because there are not transition species between two species in the fossil record, the proposed mechanism of evolution cannot explain how one turned into the other, then they mght propose that a designer was required to make the transition. Or the critic might point to a complex biological structure and say that it is too complex to have been the result of the proposed mechanism of evolution, so it must have been createed by a designer. Scientifically, that approach does not work. The honest scientific answer to these kinds of criticism is that the theory of evolution is consistent with many observed phenomena, so it is given a lot of scientific weight, but it does not yet provide all explanations for all the observed phenomena. More scientific investigation is required to complete the theory. In the case of the missing transition species and complex structures, maybe more fossil transition species will be found, or maybe the future understanding of how genetics works will show that transition species are not always necessary --- it may be possible that evolution procedes by leaps sometimes, and there is a physical mechanism for such leaps. Science always provides that theory can be modified as new facts come to light. Science always provides that theories are not necessarily complete.
One of the things that I object to in the Ben Stein video trailer is the claim that questioning Darwinism is a career killer. That is not so. Any scientific theory can be questioned, as long as it is questioned in a scientific way. For example, it is scientifically fine to point to the examples I mentioned earlier, the gaps in the fossil record and the complex biological structures, and say, "I question whether Darwinism's natural selection or genetic mutation can account for these phenomena." No one can be criticised for pointing out the shortcomings of the current theory, and no one's career should suffer for doing so. But it is not scientifically OK to say that these phenomena are due to a designer or creator, or God without proposing a scientific way to investigate the designer or creator, or God. To do so is an assualt on science, and if that person's career is in science or involved with teaching science in school, then it is appropriate that their career suffer.
It seems to me that the people who like to frame this debate as a "War on God," like to take the position that they are somehow persecuted victims. I don't buy that at all. I saw a poll recently in which some huge fraction of Americans do not believe in evolution. I don't remember the exact statistics, but to me it was alarming. Creationists and proponents of intelligent design are not victims and do have a large following in this country.
In some ways, I think it is not really all that important to day-to-day life whether a person believes in evolution or not, but evolution is not strictly an academic question. Some of us do need to understand evolution, because evolution does affect our daily lives. There is no way to understand the emergence of new strains of drug-resistant germs or pesticide-resistant insects than by understanding the physical mechanisms of evolution. I do not personally believe that there is an intelligent designer out there who is working to overcome our antibiotics and insecticides.
Here are just a few definitions of 'theory':Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadian_Cron
1. a coherent group of general propositions used as principles of explanation for a class of phenomena: Einstein's theory of relativity.
2. a proposed explanation whose status is still conjectural, in contrast to well-established propositions that are regarded as reporting matters of actual fact.
3. a belief, policy, or procedure proposed as the basis of a specific action:
4. an ideal or hypothetical set of principles, or circumstances - often used in the phrase "in theory..."
Used in this fashion, many atheists would probably consider organized religion a theory, as opposed to a faith. One definition of faith is simply - confidence or trust in a person or thing. So, with that in mind, I'll still stand by my statement.
As for your deductive reasoning about evolutionists, I'm sure there are plenty of them who say 'don't steal, commit murder, commit adultery, partake in magic tricks, fortune telling, sex before marriage, masturbation etc'. This has more to do with standard morals and ethics, than it does with the teaching of a religion alone. Well, except for the sex before marriage/masturbation part. That's predominantly a Christian set of morals, I believe. But, even then, I'm sure there are plenty of folks who abstain from sex before marriage so that they'll savor the experience more when it finally does happen. :wtf:
And there are plenty of conditions necessary for one to believe in a theory. Even though parts of it may not be backed up by actual fact, it still has to be compelling enough for someone to believe that it may be true. I'd say that the concept of eternity and divine salvation are pretty compelling to most people...even though they cannot be properly explained, and are difficult to grasp. You're right that 'theory' and 'faith' have separate definitions, but in this case, they can still coexist in the same sentence!
It may just be that there are more conditions necessary for a person to believe in a faith...however much sense that makes.
The government runs the schools.
Church and State are seperate.
Nuff' said.
Microevolution isn't debated by most creationists. This is a perfect example of microevolution, where certain changes tend to evolve within a species. I'm a creationist, and I won't deny it...but even I will admit that mutations are possible within a species. But I have a hard time believing in macroevolution when all of the transitional fossils that you speak of are nowhere to be found. Even though they're supposed to be everywhere. Darwin even stated that in order for his theory to be proven scientifically, there would need to be proof in these transitional fossils. So, why are we unable to find any? I find it hard to consider this science when the definition supposedly is the systemic knowledge of a matter, based around what is gained from experimentation & observation.Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
Nevermind that, why am I ridiculed for believing what I do when there's this huge flaw in the theory that humans evolved from lower primates? It's a nice theory, yes...but, then again, so is the theory that we are created in God's image. It's hard, as a person of faith, to honestly believe that my Lord was an orangutan God before he evolved into a God in human form!
There is no God, its a figment of your imagination, just like the countless other Gods invented by man. Gods invented long before Christianity existed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
The Bible is an adaptation of ancient astrology, surrounded by myth, rewritten several times to fit in with current morals and thought. Written as a system of control to gain power over the people. "Believe in God and do as we say, or you will burn forever" " The bible is true because it says so."
Tell me, how can a God invented by man exist anywhere other than our imaginations?
Anyone who believes in God is weak minded, or simply stupid, and is living wrapped up in an outdated lie.
Can a Christian explain why and how these Gods,to name but a few, are fake? And where is your scientific proof?
The Gods
* Aken Ferryman of the Underworld
* Aker Guardian and Gatekeeper of the Underworld
* Am-Heh - Devourer of Millions
* Ament Greeter of the Dead
* Ammit Devourer of the Wicked
* Amun and Amun-Re The King of the Gods
* Anat Mother of Gods
* Andjety A precursor of Osiris
* Anqet The Embracer, Goddess of Fertility and the Nile at Aswan
* Anubis God of Embalming
* Anuke Goddess of War
* Anuket Goddess of the Nile
* Apep The Great Destroyer
* Arensnuphis Anthropomorphic Nubian Deity
* As Kindly God of the Desert
* Astarte, Warrior Goddess of Canaan
* Aten The Sun Disk and later God
* Atum The All-Father
* Auf (Efu Ra) An aspect of the sun god Ra
* Baal, God of Thunder
* Ba-Pef - The Soul
* Babi - The Dominant Male Baboon God
* Banebdjetet God of Lower Egypt
* Bast Beautiful Cat-Goddess
* Bat - Ancient Cow Goddess
* Benu (Bennu) - The Bird of Creation
* Bes Protector of Childbirth
* Dedwen - Nubian God of Resources
* Denwen - The Fiery Serpent
* The Ennead The Nine Great Osirian Gods
* Fetket - The Sun God's Butler
* Geb God of the Earth
* Gengen Wer - The Great Honker
* Hapi God of the Nile River
* Hathor Goddess of Music and Dance
* Hatmehyt - The Fish Goddess
* Haurun, The Victorious Herdsman
* Heh and Hauhet Deities of Infinity and Eternity
* Heqet Frog Goddess
* Heret-Kau - She who is Above the Spirits
* Heryshef, Ruler of the Riverbanks
* Heset Goddess of Plenty
* Hetepes-Sekhus - An Eye of Re
* Hike God of Magic and Medicine
* Horus King of the Gods on Earth
* Hu God of the Spoken Word
* Iabet, Cleanser of Re, Personification of the East
* Ihy - The Child God
* Imhotep Lord of Science and Thought
* Ipy (Opet), A Mother of Osiris
* Isis Queen of the Gods
* Iusaas - Creator Goddess
* Kabechet Helper of Anubis
* Kek and Kauket, Deities of Darkness, Obscurity and Night
* Khenmu The Great Potter
* Kherty - Ram-headed God
* Kephri The Great Scarab
* Khonsu God of the Moon
* Maat Lady of Truth and Order
* Mafdet Goddess of Scorpions and Snakes
* Mahaf - The Ferryman
* Mahes The Lord of the Massacre
* Male Child Gods of Egypt
* Mandulis - The Lower Nubian Sun God
* Mehen Defender of the Sun Boat
* Mehet-Weret - Cow Goddess of the Sky
* Menhit Lion-headed War Goddess
* Mertseger Guardian of the Valley of the Kings
* Meskhenet - Goddess of Childbrith
* Mihos - Son of Bastet
* Min God of Fertility
* Montu, Warrior and Solar God
* Mut Grandmother of the Gods
* Nefertem Lord of the Sunrise
* Nehebkau, the God who Joined the Ka to the Body
* Nekhbet Goddess of the Power of Kings
* Neith Goddess of War and Funerals
* Nephthys Lady of the Wings
* Nun and Naunet Gods of Chaos and Water
* Nut Goddess of the Firmament
* The Ogdoad The Primordial Creation Gods
* Onuris The War God
* Osiris Lord of the Dead
* Pakhet The Strength of Woman
* Panebtawy - The Child God
* Peteese and Pihor - Brother Gods
* Ptah The Creator
* Qadesh - Goddess of Esctasy and Sexual Pleasure
* Re (Ra) The Sun God
* Renenutet Goddess of the Harvest
* Reshep - The Syrian War God
* Sah and Sopdet (Sothis) The Astral God and Goddess
* Satet Goddess of the Inundation
* Satis Guardian of the Borders
* Sebiumeker - Meroitic God of Procreation
* Sefkhet-Abwy - Goddess of Writing and Temple Libraries
* Seker The Resurrected Osiris
* Sekhmet The Eye of Ra
* Sepa - Centipede God
* Serapis the Composit God
* Serqet (Selkis) Scorpion Goddess
* Seshat Goddess of writing, measurements
* Set God of Evil
* Shay - Personified Destiny
* Shesmetet - Leonine Goddess
* Shesmu Demon god of the Win Press
* Shu God of the Air and Sky
* Sia - The Perceptive Mind
* Sobek Guard of the Gods
* Sons of Horus Gods of the Viscera and the Canopic Jars
* Sopedu - The Border Patrol God
* Ta-Bitjet - A Wife of Horus
* Tasenetnofret - The Good Sister
* Taweret Goddess Demoness of Birth
* Tayet - Goddess of Weaving
* Tefnut Goddess of Moisture
* Tatenen - "Father of Gods" and the God of the Rising Earth
* Thoth God of Wisdom
* Wadj Wer - The Pregnant God
* Wadjet The Serpent Goddess
* Weneg - Ancient Son of Re
* Wepwawet (Upuaut) The Opener of the Ways
* Wosret - Goddess of Thebes
* Yah - Another Moon God
* Yamm - God of the Sea
The truth is that Gods were invented to explain what was the unexplainable (astrology at the time ). The Christian God and Jesus were no different. Infact most Christian beliefs are stolen from ancient myths and astrology. Eg. Virgin Birth, 3 day resurrection, three kings, sun of god. etc.
Zeitgeist - The Movie, 2007
When Darwin first proposed his theory, he had no understanding of how genetics works. As we learn more about genetics, we begin to understand how a small genetic mutation can result in a huge change in the organism. There are certain genes that regulate the functions of other genes or multiple systems of genes. So it is possible that by having a mutation in one of the controller-type genes you could have what looks like a huge leap in evolution in a single generation. In that case, there would be no transition fossils between the two organisms. In Darwin's time, it was believed that evolution happened gradually, with transition organisms, but as the underlying mechanism is better understood, that is no longer believed to be always the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Clandestine
Perhaps your God was a dominaant male baboon instead of an orangutan?Quote:
Originally Posted by BeforeYourTime
yowzas.
By the way, on the face of it, what I said was very disrespectful, and I want you to know I was just joking around!Quote:
Originally Posted by dragonrider
I just kind of thought it was a funny connection...