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Junkyard:
Or maybe I'm just trying to do something good like save your soul. Why does it so often turned negative? Why so often the negative response first .Quote:
I'm not sure there would be an argument if those arguing didn't either feel superior, threatened, or maybe even a little insecure
Junkyard:
I don't want to argue at all. It's better than nothing but it's really the opposite direction I want to go.Quote:
A person can certainly debate a topic without these motivators. I think argument is something different altogether, tho. I don't know your heart bro, so I cannot comment on your motivation, but more often than not these are the roots for argument.
hardcore newbie:
Scientific evidence can lead to faith. The observations and logic and common sense lead to faith. So your faith has a foundation.Quote:
Science literally means knowledge, faith is the lack thereof, so I don't exactly know how the thread starter proposes jumping from trying to acquire more knowledge to just having faith, or even if that's the intent at all.
In any case, I disagree with many assumptions being used as fact that the thread starter is making, so I call them into question.
You mean the axioms in my post? Please elaborate.
It's just what I said earlier in the post, true faith is a logical extention of the evidence of this world. In another part of the bible it saysQuote:
Junkyard said:
Science is a study of facts; faith is more like [experiencing] something unseen, unverifiable in scientific terms.
" 2 Corinthians 4:18
While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal. "
You see this casts light on why we walk by faith and not by sight. God gives us a recognition of his eternal nature, but we can't see him and so we have to believe in him without sight. Our outside bodily senses can't grasp something like that.
Recognise before I said you couldn't validate anything for a fact the way imitator wanted it unless you're eternal. Well we're not eternal ourselves but we recognise God is and that encompasses everything ( but we can't see Giod so we walk by faith ). and compare and use logic with the evidence of the outside world and you have both spiritual evidence and material evidence, spiritual being the greater ( but not without the material).
hardcore newbie:
To convince you to a path to God, I would say you need recognition of his spiritual nature I think we need that to interperet our outside observations to recognise him, and tro recognise him in our hearts. How else would you recognise spiritual but with spiritual ?Quote:
I like that idea. Is it saying that no one can convince you from your path except something supernatural?
Realize this, natureisawsome: Only through Christ and by the Grace of God are we saved (This is my beleif) Salvation cannot, nor should it be forced upon anyone. We come to it in our own time, on our own terms, and only by the grace of God. We, as Christians, merely plant the seeds.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I'm afraid that by insisting others come to your stand, you are driving them away. Understand that they do not posses what you posses, bro. Try to remember when you were lost, and how you came to understand the Grace of God. Did it come with a conversation? Did it come through an argument, or debate?
I don't know your motivation; I only get a glimps of you from what you post. You may be trying to save souls, but that is not your charge. Your charge, as a Christian, is to simply spread the good news of the kingdom, assuming you are aware of that kingdom.
You have friends here, and I Am One of them.
Love
Well saidQuote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
mfqr:
A person has to be open for something to be proven to them. There can be proof, but we value in our minds and hearts what's reasonable as proof. SOme people see things with their own eyes and it's not proof enough. For some people with some things their never enough proof. It's just a lack of faith, it's not reasonable or logical.Quote:
This doesn't prove that God exists on any level. This is just explaining that we are alive, and that it is a miracle that we are alive. It's the same thing as intelligent design, except you explain it in-depth and lightly dabble on science. Science and God cannot be combined, because there is no real science that can prove it or disprove it, otherwise we would have already been able to prove or disprove it to everyone.
can you show me some examples?Quote:
My mind is not changed. I will remain agnostic. I used to be a christian, but to me it's all just bullshit. What I truly think the people who wrote the bible saw were aliens from other planets, who were visiting us at the time. It's a fact that people in those times saw alien spacecraft, because there are drawings of them. It would certainly make sense for people back then to believe it was some sort of God.
Excuse me, but about those aliens in the bible.. can you show me some evidence please?Quote:
I truly believe that this sort of thing was indeed written in the bible, however, it was removed from it. Yes, your bibles are edited. Why wouldn't they be? Don't you see that religion is just another system of control that has controlled the whole world for a millenium? Look at all the wars that have been started purely because one other set of people did not believe in that particular religion. A loving God wants to spread the word of him through conquest? Give me a break. No, I don't think Satan did it.
And are you referring to the catholic church ? I already pointed out that the catholic church isn't Christian earlier in this thread. They're not Christian and Jesus did not teach us to have any kind of physcial warfare, the opposite actually. If you want me to explain a few things about the catholic babylon mystery religion another thread can be started about that later. ( Like when thsi thread is done at least), but otherwise let's leave the rcc out of this.
The evangicals and everyone else who votes in a Democracy all judge easch other through the ballot so everyone is guilty. But again, evangicals are obviously not Christians either. And I know their false doctrine.Quote:
Religion has been the most powerful and effective system of control for thousands of years... and it still controls the world effectively. Look at what the Evangelicals are trying to accomplish. That's right, they want to control our government, and get rid of the separation of the church and state. Yes, let's all go back to medieval times where religion ruled all, and if you didn't believe in christianity or catholicism, you were a demon and had to be dealt with. Give me a break!
I will reiterate a previous declaration in my post. There is no morality without God. And yes, I'm a sheep and I'd rather be a sheep than a wolf.Quote:
There's no reason to believe in religion unless you can't find happiness yourself, or you don't understand how to abide by your own set of morals. It's for sheep!
So why did you say that you think it's a total farce that people "pretend" to not recognize the existence of god? Other people might not have the same needs as you.[/quote]Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
I'm not saying that you didn't have needs, I'm saying that *if* you didn't have the need to be rescued, you probably never would have turned to the Bible. It's only when you realized your needs that the bible became fact to you. Some people don't have those needs, so they don't need the bible in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
And I'm not sure what you mean by being doubtful of my conscious. If it's just a hypothetical, then I'll spell it out and say I'm quite happy with my moral system and my thought process.
Yeah, and that view is very condescending. There are quite a few analogies you could have chosen, but the parent and child is the one that you chose.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
without reading the entire post again, I'll try and show you a few.Quote:
Originally Posted by natureisawesome
that's assuming that this being didn't just throw things together for amusement and surprise. A being wouldn't have to be all knowing to create the universe. really fucking smart? yes. inifinitely smart? not necessarily. I'm sure God could devise a way of creating randomness that not even God would know the outcome of. maybe God would understand it after the fact, but during the creation of say... sand, It just used a random number for the molecules and so on. And if this isn't a possibility, then God isn't all powerful anyways (inability to generate a truly random number).Quote:
Why? If it designed and created all things, then it knows the details about all things. This attribute is called omniscience.
If all the religions of the world are wrong, that makes God anonymous. Just because mankind has grasped the concept of deities, gods and God, that doesn't mean that we've found the right one. We might be close, but God could just be a prankster. Putting out ideas for everyone to grasp, everything but the right one. Knowing as much as God does, you think It'd have to spice things up from time to time.Quote:
It also remains possible that none of them are correct and God has chosen to remain anonymous. But if God did want to be known, it is impossible that God might fail. God is omnipotent and omniscient including perfect knowledge of the future.It is impossible that a perfectly powerful and all knowing God would fail to accomplish any goal. Now, where does that leave things?
And again, the pantheism. You said in a subsequent post when I asked why the universe couldn't be "supernatural", you said that the atom was only natural. Yes, that's what evidence points to, I agree, but to think that there's no possibility of the contrary, no matter how small, it's still an assumption that you must make to continue the argument.
This thread deals with the concept of all powerful beings and all knowing beings conflicting with free will, so instead of having that argument here, feel free to comment on that in the other thread.
I also disagree with this. For many reasons. It's my assumptions that animals don't believe in deities, yet many of them get along fine. Sheep for example :)Quote:
I will reiterate a previous declaration in my post. There is no morality without God. And yes, I'm a sheep and I'd rather be a sheep than a wolf.
There might be more, but that's what I'll post today.
mfqr
Yes it could possibly be a hallucination. But if you saw a talking donkey, they by itself opens the possiblity that the donkey really did talk, especially if you're sober. But you can to also take in what you know about the rest of the universe take that into account too.Quote:
It doesn't have to be attributed to some god or divine entity. That could be attributed to the supernatural, however. Or perhaps it could be attributed to evolution. Maybe somehow that donkey was a very rare breed who has evolved beyond all the others, and had gained enough intelligence to speak in a human way! Haha.
That's not true. Moses saw God's back when He hid in a rock. And Abraham saw God with angels. ( although not in all of his glory), and Jacob wrestled with him, and He has appeared to others in the bible including the around 400 people after he was risen from the dead, and in his glory with Peter James and John on the mountain with Moses and Elijah. And Jesus is God and lots of people saw him and saw him doing miracles and healings ( supernatural phenomena). So that's not true.Quote:
Ghosts, and whatever, I believe in (at least there's some sort of visual evidence of this, many around the world have claimed to see ghosts - but nobody has ever claimed to see God
A lot. A lot of people have claimed to follow a religion and were evil and violent. That doesnt make the bible wrong. It makes people wrong. If the bible taught people to be evil, now that would be another story.Quote:
I believe religion should be abolished from this Earth forever. What REAL good has it caused?
That's a pretty strong judgement there and the fact that you "haha" about this topic shows you're not giving it the seriousness and consideration it deserves. Whether God exists or doesn't it
s a very serious matter. Na there's lots of reason to belive in God.