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maybe i didnt quite get it, but regular photosynthesis occuring at 50mu, and it said in order to pulse and get the same effect, you gotta pulse them at 5000mu...so instead of long slow electricity usage you get super spikes every 200ms? wouldnt that strain the hell out of your equip? or maybe i need to read that paper again, minus a few bowls...heh
:smokebong:
WT
ROFLMAO! thats what kills me about this place. all ya gotta do is say it and it becomes gospel - just like jesus did! aint magic cool.
weve all seen pics reports graphs and tests at
Experiments with Hydroponics, Aeroponics, and LED Grow Lighting
proving that in veg stage HIGH POWER LEDs are the new way all that needs tweeking is the spectrum in flower and how long do you think it will take the slide rule guys to figure that out?. just dont waste your hard grown dollars on grossly UNDER POWERED kits your better off buying papers and bics and why are some of you always trying some kind of unproven slight of hand instead of doing whats proven to work do what works THEN little by little tweek...i mean unless youve got PhDs in things like botney energy flux and biology why try to trick anything?
right now the industry is responding to us the best thing is for us to interface with active testers and and lab guys to help them develop what we need visit greenpine look at the data read thier fourms and participate and contribute. we will get what we want faster. as it stands now both the main products UFO AND PSYCLON are being improved almost weekly and even then the manuf are open to upgrading our buys
Together
Everyone
Accomplishes
More
TEAM...get it?
Exactly right SnS. You overdrive the LED's for a shorter period of time. The LED's are fine with this, as long as they are pulsed for the correct duration so they dont burn out (Most LED sompanies give pulse time and rate for overdriving LED's). The paper proves that with 100us pulses, photosynthesis remains 100% of that with constant light. Were not trying to trick the plants by "flickering" the lights, merely providing increased amount of light over a shorter amount of time by overdriving them for 100us pulses.Quote:
so instead of long slow electricity usage you get super spikes every 200ms? wouldnt that strain the hell out of your equip?
LED's can turn on in 200ns. There is no harm done to the LED's by pulsing them, it actually increases life expectancy (if overdriven than life expectancy stays same).Quote:
but is turning on/off so many times going to hurt the leds?
Opie- Photosynthesis only happens so fast(but still very fast)...its not like the more light you give it the more it will grow(there is a linear relationship between amount of light provided and plant growth, up to a point). Plants require certain amount of photons per unit time to attain cellular reactions for light cycle, sugar creation, ect.
this is from the paper:
Much of the light used for photosynthesis by leaves within canopies is from sunflecks (Pfitsch and Pearcy 1989; Pearcy 1990). These sunflecks range from milliseconds to minutes in duration and their photon flux densities can be as bright as full sunlight.
So plants undergo photosynthesis naturally with these "pulses" of light.
Also from the paper:
We measured photosynthesis under light/dark times of 15/135, 7.5/142.5 and 1.5/148.5 us which required instantaneous pulse PFD of 500, 1000, and 5000 pmol mp2 s-', respectively, to achieve an intcgrated PFD of 50 pmol m-2 s ' .
Basically this confirms what you guessed Opie, that there is still the same amount of light reaching the plant by pulsing the lights at a greater power.
The photosynthetic apparatus integrates the pulsed light and uses it as effeciently as continuous light
Thus saying pulsed light for photosynthesis is just as effecient at continuous light.
So say we have 200 5W LED's (as my plans are). By pulsing them at a 10% duty cycle, the actual power used y the LED's is only 100W compared to the original 100W. However we are providing the LED's with more power (from 1000mA to approx 2500mA), so the power used would be approx 1/5 of the original, saving 800W of energy. The plants still received the required amount of photons for photosynthesis, but with way greater effeciency by pulsing the LED's.
Of course I do not take every word of this paper and assume it is true, I am merely showing how pulsing LED's could be used for greater effeciency. I created a simple 555 timer circuit and hooked up 7 LED's to it and pulsed them at the required specifications (100us on, 900us off, 5kHz), and recorded the power consumtion, and indeed there was an increase in effeciency (by that I mean less watts used by the LED's). The effeciency does not come from giving the plant less light, but form giving the LED's a smaller total energy consumption. Hope Im was able to clear some thing up without confusing anymore people.
Look at the top left of pg 265 of that site....nice graph showing increased photosynthesis with increased photon density (amount of light in the pulse).
Sorry for such a long post...didnt realize it would be so long...but still helpful info
hmm....isnt that exactly what me and doughboy are doing? And just to let you know, we are very much in contact with greenpinelane and HGL, so...Quote:
Originally Posted by Ziggy Stardust
whiskeytango
SnS I think you should call your thread THE ULTIMATE LED TEST GROW...lol
Hatch- UVB is outside the visible range of light, so it would have no color(to us but to the plants yes).Quote:
Originally Posted by hatch
So Opie whats your opinion on pulsed lighting now? just wondering
Check your thread. I think I understand. As long as short bursts of current that would normally overdrive and burn up the LED, are not going to hurt the LED at all, then maybe we got a winner.
:cool:Buyah guys,
I'm going to China just for that reason to improve the wave length and to make the diffused light lost. If I can get more of the light to the whole plant. Please place a list of what you'd want to have to make a one stop shopping experience, easy.
I've got the shipping and Handling already setup for direct drop ship.
I'll be looking for Dealers to retail the LED when I get back. www.anextsmartstep.com is under construction as we speak. I'll also need to know from all of you what you'd want me to also carry so I can supply all of your products from a single shop.
Special Note* The Blue LEDs don't last as long as the rest of the LED's. I would recommend that if the factory could make a separate blue bulb from the rest. You'll see a bunch of LED's for sale due to this, like the HPS & HM bulbs they go out after 3 seasons? It's the same with the blues they only last 6000 to hrs. I'd recommend a change then. I guess the rest of the Dealers forgot to mention this when they sold you your previous panels?
I'll be selling replacement bulbs just for this application? If you own a flat panel of blue and red LED's don't throw it away or sell it? Just get a new Blue LED for the budding stages.
Your link is broken.
Now are you going to China, or you are going to use "china" panels?Quote:
Originally Posted by buyahalan
I have designed products for years with Chinese engineers, no need to physically go there for a product.
Very true....lolQuote:
Originally Posted by brownthumb
:smokebong:
Hey all great thread.
I have abit of a noob questions, i've been looking into LEDS for a few weeks now and i'm on my first grow. just the only plant in a little cupboard. with a big bright hot light, not sure what type it is.
all this was given to me by a friend who is a grower, said it would give me chance to try some hydroponics out.
before i get into hydro i have a simple question.
Would these LED lights be anygood for 1 plant. or should i consider maybe 2 panels.
168 LED Plant Grow Light BULB Hydroponic tent bud 240v on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 01-Mar-08 14:13:26 GMT)
1x 225 LED Plant Grow Light PANEL Hydroponic Lamp plug on eBay, also Hydroponics, Plants Seeds Bulbs, Garden Plants, Home Garden (end time 01-Mar-08 01:15:00 GMT)
Sorry if this is advertising. but really i just wanna know if the 225 led panel is better than the 168 and would i need 1 or maybe 2 of these lights for 1 plant?
they also say there hydroponic lamps. does it matter that my plant at the min is in soil? i'm only about 2 weeks into growing and its a clone not from seed.
thanks for your help/input :)
Please see http://boards.cannabis.com/grow-log/...rn-lights.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by Gazzeruk26
thats a grow with 4 225 panels and ill let you form your own opinion. your problem w/ those lights is the 5mm dont have the wattage in/wattage out power that they need to grow healthy plants.
theres no such thing as a hydroponic lamp(at least that I know of). Thats another selling point(lie). have 20 plants thriving under LEDs in dirt right now. see sig.
Db:smokin:
G26
I have 14 168 led spots = junk for growing ($450 lesson)
read some, this is all over many forums
YO,
Havent read the whole post but heres a guy w/ the "14w" kit. he had 660's added. etc. but seems like hes doing ok. any opinions?
Cannabis and Marijuana seeds :: HomeGrown420 - 140w LED Grow (660/630/470/420)
Db:smokin:
Looks like the 660 and 420nm made a big difference. The buds look decent size, especially for an LED grow.
I don't want to seem negative, but they look a little sparse to me. Maybe it's just the variety. I don't understand why the arrays are so far away. You need about 3 off those panels per plant to do anything, and they need to be right next to the plant.
I agree opie, theyre a bit small but, like you said there is not enough/bad placement problems.
Have we seen a grow w/ these kits minus the 420/ 660?
db:smokin:
Hey guys,
I am fascinated by the whole subject of LED grows. I've been reading SnSstealth's log, and my theory is that the reason why he has been successful where others have met with such difficulty is this: Lumens.
Most of the products out there marketed as "LED Grow Lights" have no light output ratings at all. Most of them are also garbage.
Please bear with me on this post, I know its pretty long, but I am going somewhere with it :)
I wish the Procyon 100's used had a lumen rating. It would make comparisons and calculations so much simpler. Because I don't know exactly how much current is driving each of the Cree X-lamps, I can only guess at the light output. Based on their specs (as available from the manufacturer) they put out anywhere from 80 to 200 lumens, depending on how much current is used to drive them.
If one assumes an average value of 140 lumens / lamp that gives a total output for a single Procyon 100 = 140 * 56 = 7,840 lumens. Call it 8,000 lumens to simplify math. My guess is that the true value is no less than 6,000, and no more than 10,000.
Now, given SnSstealth's 8*2 = 16 square feet grow room we have seen that 3 * 8,000 = 24,000 lumens seems to be adequate for that area. That gives us an average of 24,000 / 16 = 1,500 lumens/ square foot.
That's where I was going. It looks like 1,500 lumens/sq. ft. is a good baseline for planning a LED lighting system.
Of course that's all assuming that the output is in the right frequencies. Basically I'm saying one needs to have a lighting set-up put out the frequencies, in the right proportions, reaching at least the intensity calculated here.
Does anyone have any critiques or thoughts on this reasoning? And thank you again SnSstealth for providing numbers that I could base my theorizing on!
Your reasoning sounds fine to me.
lumen and PAR are defined terms
an led array designed on a PAR basis will have very low measured lumens
I agree that SnS is doing better than most (all ?) and it is due to the intensity.
FWIW
a Sunmaster 600W MH conversion bulb has 50,000 lumens and 195 PAR watts, ~ 1/3 of its output is of use to us
Sorry guys, I just noticed a very significant flaw in my logic. It's a really silly goof.
I've been thinking about the possibility of White LEDs as grow lights, which seems reasonable if one looks at the activity spectra of Green Plant Photosynthesis and compares it to the emission spectra of most White LEDs. They are quite similar, with peaks in roughly the same places.:cool:
As such, I goofed and substituted lumen ratings using the data for the white Cree XR-E lamp in the calculations for the light output of the Procyon 100's. And of course, the Procyon's use the Colored Xlamps, and they have different specs, and different lumen ratings.
Brownthumb, I know what lumens are, they're the SI unit of luminous flux, equal to 1 candela * steradian. But what do you mean by PAR? Do you mean Photosynthetically Active Radiation? Or something else? PAR is used as name for too many things in lighting :)
As for what my goof implies about the numbers, I think it means that the lumen numbers are far too large, which seems astonishing. Trouble is, I'm reading through Cree's spec sheets, and they don't specify lumen output at high driving current for the color parts, just at the relatively pedestrian 350mA.
I'm currently working on researching more and trying to post revised calculations.
Hmm, based on most specs, the lumen output seems to double when going from 350ma to 700ma with minimal increase when going up from 700ma to 1000ma.
Nothing wrong with white in my opinion. Everyone keeps telling me I'm crazy, but white light seems to work pretty well for fluoros and HID. Just as with those, LED's have many different whites. Just make sure you use the right ones for the individual stages of growth.
what does everyone think about a 250w-hps supplemented by 2(maybe 4-all conceptual) of the 14w's kits along with 80w of fluorescents for a closet grow where heat would be a problem? i heard the 14w's are equivalent to about 50w-if compared to hps- so that should all work out to about 430w give or take some... you think that it would produce like a 400w-hps- or do u think its all a waste? but heat is really the main issue and why i would have to supplement the other light into the grow if i were to do so-- cause the 250 alone would keep the temp in the high 70's...so a 400 would be out of the question..
:rastasmoke:
let me know what you think stealth /opie/anyone else with any thoughts on this -- would really appreciate it...
:stoned:
you guys rock!!! i am so glad we found people as interested in this as we are...(bongrip) any ideas on how we can test these procyons, we will gladly do it and post...we got a little $30 meter that tests lumens, moisture, ph and something else, im high and not at the room...lol it read 5000 lumes at about 24in....i think if we get closer than 1ft to the plants, they seem to stop growing, but im not sure if its from all the pruning i did...i cut them down in two sessions, a week apart...lights or cutting? dont know which one slowed them down more, but will play more with the distance as we go...do know that 2 ft is to far, thet reached, so ill measure the lumes at about 16in today and let you guys know.
bonzo, how big is the closet? sound like a lil too much to me...IMHO..why mix all 3? just wondering
:smokebong:
whiskeytango
Well its 2x3x7- and the reason is that i have the floros....and the 250 -- and i wouldnt want to do just 2 girls- maybe 5 if im lucky- so id use the floros for the side lighting and the 2 14w on a nice penetrating angle from above... and maybe just use them all during flowering as a booster??-- i dunno -- i just would like to max it out -- don t want to waste anything if im gonna go for it... i want to yeild like a 400 i guess to..lols without the 400?? does this make sense.lolsQuote:
Originally Posted by SnSstealth
i put a 400 in there a long time ago and with the it heavily fanned - was still in the 90's so its just not an option to move up- im afraid with the 250 alone it just wont have the juice...
let me know your thoughts..
:rastasmoke::stoned:
Sean
You are not posting a hotlink to the site but 2 out of 3 posts have the website them. You are bordering into spamming for that website. If you continue to post the website in 66% of your posts, you will earn an infraction for spamming.
I was looking around the web and found two 'instructables' regarding wiring up high powered LEDs thought you guys would be interested.
Circuits for high powered LEDS
Making a small High Powered LED grow light This guy does do some questionable things with his resistor though...
:jointsmile:
Those are a nice find:thumbsup: that would be nice if you were driving 10 or so LEDs but i think we have to use another power supply if using alot more, like 80 or 100. I was thinking a computer power suppy unit. look at the attachment.
yes is'nt it .... BLISSQuote:
Originally Posted by SnSstealth
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
Ya know opie i've been pondering this white light and it's purpose
everything has a purpose! then i thuoght about how everyone use's white for reflecting colors maybe that is white's job
reflecting the colors so they can travel farther and penatrate
farther into plants ,,just a thought:D
hey hey there my fellow led fans
so i've been following the whole led thing with avid intrest. (nearly pop a woodie thinkin of the possiblities.) so it has inspired me to start off another grow:thumbsup:
so after a bit of research the led's i ve decided to go with are the luxeon rebel and 1 type from ledengin. with such massive concern about lumens i figure that driving 200w should take care of that issue.
these leds have a meal mount and can be placed dirctly onto a heat sink. i have contacted a company who specialise in early design inovation. i think this is a brilliant innovation but probably wont raise a life changing amount of capital so instead what i am doing is once i have the finished the design i will post the full spec and cost. this will just be for all the leds on a pcb and drive hardware and with these i will post instructions for case construction and cooling fan and people can just buy the pcb and assemble (will also design a 110v but the manufacturer is uk based) the manufacturer is very helpful and i will post his contact details and im sure that adjustment to the array would be no problem for customising options. i'll leave with a list of the led's i've chosen. been lucky enough to find a supplier who will allow me to select from specific led bins to hit exact spectrums
ok so here's the list of luxeon rebel driven at 2.1w
w/l qty
440/445 5
460/465 8
465/470 8
480/485 6
495/500 7
545/550 5
613.5/620.5 5
631/645 24
and the ledengin driven at 3w
660 20
cheers for listen to my lil rant, just tryin to do my bit for the cause
peace out :jointsmile:
hey sweetgreenbud looks kool i stumble on this company
Heatron.com - Innovations in Heating and Lighting
they might beable todo the same kinda stuff
I have been seeing a lot of companies springing up with
custom led array production. It cause the Leds need proper
drive circuits ,and also need to be efficient so they have to be custom made per Led Light design.
I am thinking of building a 60 watt array with a advance sign pro
led driver as it will fit into my design. most drivers /mosfet's are
bigger and won't fit I have been getting pretty confused on
building my drive cicuit the more research i do the more confused I am getting maybe you can shine some light on it for me.
I want to string 12 5watt leds on the 60watt advance driver will this work?
do i need to add some more stuff?? will it even drive 12 on a string
a saw somewhere it was sayin 3 on a string??
maybe one of these? lm3407
http://www.national.com/cat/index.cgi?i=i//223
gotta run check ya l8trs
hmmm ..he ponders white light
realization of RGB-LED white lighting has many challenges
A requirement in white light applications is that lamps of the same type have the same color point.The color point may change with time or temperature,but lamps sharing the same history must all change in the same way.For example,it is unacceptable if all fluorescent lamps in a office are not the same color.it is also unacceptable if a LCD monitor displays a different white color point
at different points on the screen.
LED characteristics are far less reproducible than conventional lamps.
LED's vary in lumen output and wavelenght,and in their dependence
on temperature and time.Since mixing one or more red,green and blue LED's is creating white light,varition in one color(or one led)
can have a significant effect on the color point.In addition uniform
spatial mixing of the light from a small number of high power LED's is difficult to achieve.Great care be taken to ensure that color uniformity over the spatial light distribution from the LED lamp is at acceptable levels.
So the white light can be made from RGB, duplication will not be easy.
I wonder if this light will grow plants its red blue green
ColorBlast 12, Color Blast, LED Lights, Buy Color Blast, Rent Color Blast
here's a link to ledmagazine lots of info:
LEDs Magazine - Technology Channel
I f anyone wants to help me out I am still in need
I am trying to string 12 5watt LedEngin Bulbs
http://www.ledengin.com/products/5wLZ/LZ1-00R205.pdf
to a Advance Driver
Advance Transformer Ballast - LED Drivers - signPRO® (LED)
any help will be appreciated
Opie,Quote:
Originally Posted by Opie Yutts
Had the same thought awhile ago, but my testing w/ white LEDs last year was less then stellar. Plus LED whites are not rated like fluros in degrees Kelvin, but rather an x/y plot. Hard to figure which is which.
My solution was to combine Red Cree XR xlamp LEDs with T5 fluros.
I've replaced a 600w HPS with 160w of LED and 198w of T5.
I'm 1/2 way through 2nd try with it and it works great!
I see no reason why the correct warm white LED could not replace the furos.