How were you created?

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

I go beyond that single viewpoint because there are many views from different people about the origins of God, so i made some available in this thread. Are they infallible? No. Do they make you think? Yes. And this my friend is all we can do and all we can know, that we are thinking, all the time. How we recieved this power is up to ponder.

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It's fine to make people think, but claiming that the "rational" conclusion was to believe in God is ignorant at best. That's what I took issue with.

How does a rational gamber place his bets? Not always on the contender most likely to win, suprisingly enough. Not always on the option with the highest purse. A rational gamber seeks to maximise his/her gains over the long run and tends to place his bets in accordance with what is known now as expected value and is determined by the formula:

Bet: (chance X payoff) - cost = expected value.

Rational wagering is not always in accordance with chance only, or with payoff only, or even with cost only. It is a function of all three.

Eternal life may be a gift, but it can only be given to someone capable of recieving it. The wager is meant to break any tie in evidential considerations between athiesm and theism.

As a buddhist, I believe that I am a creation of my own mind. Therefore I created myself and the world around me. Ask me my views and I will say, "There is no God, and I am Him."

Basically, I am Buddha.

I'd like to pose a question.

You refer to the choice between atheism and belief as a wager, where on one side one has everything to gain, and on the other one has everything to lose.

But isn't the act of believing in God solely for one's own purposes (IE: the benefit of one's purportedly immortal soul), rather selfish? It doesn't matter whether it's the fear of hell or the desire for heaven that leads you to your belief. If you look at it as a bet, a wager, you're always looking at what is to be gained and lost for you.

And what if someone uses rational thinking to compare atheism and belief, and decides... "Well, maybe it's so. Maybe if I believe in a higher power, I will have more to gain than if I didn't." Then what? They might try to believe, though perhaps other rational thoughts may contradict this new line of thinking. But the very act of trying, all other goals regarding gain and loss aside, implies insincerity. If you try to love someone, do you really love them? If you try to believe, do you really believe? And even when you believe, there is always doubt, because belief is not the same thing as knowledge.

Can you choose to love God? Is it really that easy? Remember, the very act of trying implies failure. Likewise, should morals be a means to an end? Or should they flow naturally, incidental to your love for God?

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

How does a rational gamber place his bets? Not always on the contender most likely to win, suprisingly enough. Not always on the option with the highest purse. A rational gamber seeks to maximise his/her gains over the long run and tends to place his bets in accordance with what is known now as expected value and is determined by the formula:

Bet: (chance X payoff) - cost = expected value.

Rational wagering is not always in accordance with chance only, or with payoff only, or even with cost only. It is a function of all three.

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I take it you play poker?

And regardless, in order to make a rational decision on betting, you have to know the odds. Do you claim to know them?

It seems that you're willing to dedicate your life to God (I think, correct me if I'm wrong). So we know what you're willing to give up (the wager or cost) but that might not be all that you are wagering, you may unknowingly be wagering your afterlife. Your bet may unknowingly cost your soul. We don't know the odds of the bet, and we don't even know the payout.

There is no "rational" edge in a bet with unknown odds, an infinite amount of payouts which may include negative 'prizes', and you aren't even sure of what you're wagering. You're taking a stab in the dark, as am I. Neither of our bets have an advantage because neither of us even knows the game we're playing, assuming there is one.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Eternal life may be a gift, but it can only be given to someone capable of recieving it. The wager is meant to break any tie in evidential considerations between athiesm and theism.

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And I've already shown you that an atheist is capable of receiving eternal life, if such a creator deemed it the qualification of eternal life. You haven't argued my previous point, but it seems like you keep stating that betting on theism is the probable winning bet.

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Originally Posted by afghooey

I'd like to pose a question.

You refer to the choice between atheism and belief as a wager, where on one side one has everything to gain, and on the other one has everything to lose.

It's called 'Pascals Wager' if you wanna look it up and it's criticisms.

But isn't the act of believing in God solely for one's own purposes (IE: the benefit of one's purportedly immortal soul), rather selfish? It doesn't matter whether it's the fear of hell or the desire for heaven that leads you to your belief. If you look at it as a bet, a wager, you're always looking at what is to be gained and lost for you.

Everyone has their own self interests and this is in no way immoral. If one's self interests include choosing to serve a God and choosing to believe in the afterlife, then what is selfish about that? I believe it would be selfish of me not to share this information with people.

And what if someone uses rational thinking to compare atheism and belief, and decides... "Well, maybe it's so. Maybe if I believe in a higher power, I will have more to gain than if I didn't." Then what?

Then you will share a belief held by millions of others. Does this necessarily mean anything? It depends on your perception. People make choices depending on what interests them and what they view as valuable. The point of the wager is why not bet on god? What's there to lose? There is more to lose in terms of afterlife if you are wrong when betting against God. If you win while betting on athiesm, you don't get to know you won, so what's the point?

They might try to believe, though perhaps other rational thoughts may contradict this new line of thinking. But the very act of trying, all other goals regarding gain and loss aside, implies insincerity. If you try to love someone, do you really love them? If you try to believe, do you really believe? And even when you believe, there is always doubt, because belief is not the same thing as knowledge.

Trying is the first step towards failure OR success. Knowledge is justified true belief, causation may flow in there somewhere.

Can you choose to love God?

Yes, with free will.

Is it really that easy? Remember, the very act of trying implies failure. Likewise, should morals be a means to an end? Or should they flow naturally, incidental to your love for God?

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Mankind creates morality as a painter creates a painting, through our choices in every day life, we decide what is good or bad. Morals should flow from the highest region. We should treat people as means, not means to an end.

The odds would be 50/50, i do not take stabs in the dark yet footstep after footstep into the light.

Check it out if you want: Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

Check it out if you want: Pascal's Wager - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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I checked it out, actually, and the Criticism section explains my viewpoint rather well, specifically the section that deals with the assumption that god rewards belief.

The Atheist's wager pretty much sums up my belief as well.

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Originally Posted by Reefer Rogue

I think there are more people that believe in a creator then who don't. Athiesm is an urban phenomenon.

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They've done a good job of brainwashing the majority of the world then.

Who is THEY? How were they created? ;)

People make their own choices about God, no one is brainwashed, expcept perhaps at an early age, as i was. However, having those beliefs forced on me at a young age, made me instantly reject God. Now i am mature enough to make my own mind up, i CHOOSE to believe in God, and i am much happier.

For every criticism, there is a rebuttle.