2 room flipflop relay

Hello all, new to this site it is full of great peeps and knowledge. I am a hardcore Do It Yourselfer. I am asking this community for some help. I am interested in building a 2 room 4 ballast 8 lamp flipflop relay system. These are super expensive from hydro shops like $400 just for the one I would like to build. I know it works with relays But they need to be strong enough to flip 1000 watt HPS systems. someone must have one and could possibly post pics then we could do a how to on building one. Please help it would be greatly appreciated..........I am posting a Picture of one but it does not show what is inside................:D

You should be able to get all the supplies at an electrical shop like Radio Shack for the electronics....you may have to build the box yourself though. Most relays are rated in Amps so use the formula watts=volts x amps. They should be able to show you how to wire also...just tell them it's a flip flop circuit with a good story.

Good luck and have a good one!:thumbsup:

Thanks for your help, yes I am researching this. I dont think to many people are using flipflop systems.......The more I find out I will post more info in the meantime if anyone has info to offer please do so..............:stoned:

Never heard of it.

Any and all info on "flip-flops" would be greatly appreciated. :)

A flip-flop basically transfers the signal in another direction after a certain amount of time....or by choice. Let's say you have two separate rooms, both at 12/12. From midnight to noon one room would recieve an electrical signal and from noon to midnight the other would recieve it. Hope this helps!


Have a good one!:thumbsup:

Exactly what psycho described it saves on equipment you can have 2 flower rooms running with 1 ballast the flipflop flips the HPS Bulbs over using relay or contactors with a timer. You need a special type relay that can handle at least the inrush or inductive load at startup for 1000 watt HPS lamps. I know I could build this but i dont know what type of relay the retailers use. And I dont want to spend 400 dollars when this could be built for 150 to 200.................:D

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Originally Posted by kushman45

Exactly what psycho described it saves on equipment you can have 2 flower rooms running with 1 ballast the flipflop flips the HPS Bulbs over using relay or contactors with a timer. You need a special type relay that can handle at least the inrush or inductive load at startup for 1000 watt HPS lamps. I know I could build this but i dont know what type of relay the retailers use. And I dont want to spend 400 dollars when this could be built for 150 to 200.................:D

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What do you do about the igniters and capacitors? They discharged to light the first bulb so how are you going to recharge them to light the second bulb? That is what the 5 min between lighting is for to cycle the charge to ignite the bulb.

Hello Zandor, From what I know so far is the ignitor and cap are not affected in any way power is continuous. And when it flips you are fliping to a cold bulb again this is why it would be nice to see one of these or get some info from someone who knows more.................:)

so, is that a John Kerry Relay? lmfao!!

Greetings Kushman,

I'm not educated very much on hydro systems, but I would like to add my two cents worth. What would be wrong with setting each system up on a large capacity timer, each set for the opposite time period? One set for 9am to 9pm and the other starts at 9pm to 9am. Maybe even leave an extra 15 minute buffer zone with the veg timer so it doesnt kick in both at the same time and blow a breaker. Each light cycle would be maintained and I can't see it costing more than $50. Like I said, I am not "up" on hydro systems, but if I was trying to save a buck or two, and my Canadian Government ensures that I do, this would be worth a try for me at least.

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Originally Posted by kushman45

Hello Zandor, From what I know so far is the ignitor and cap are not affected in any way power is continuous. And when it flips you are fliping to a cold bulb again this is why it would be nice to see one of these or get some info from someone who knows more.................:)

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But to ignite the bulbs you need a cap and igniter for each circuit. Thatâ??s why when the power fails you need to give them the 5 min cooling off period. It's more for the cap and igniter to discharge and then you can recharge them again to ignite the bulb.

That's how they work anyway.

Hello Zandor I am not sure what you mean. with these flips you are changing over to a cold bulb so no need for a cool down period. These units are sold at hydro retailers 1 ballast can run 2 rooms all they do is switch the hot side of the circuit between the bulbs. Again I was hopeing someone might have one and be able to share pictures or maybe someone has built there own. From what I know there is no time delay between the switching but I dont really know I have heard these unit use DPDT Relay's I just dont know what kind. Anyways thanks for all that are interested and your replys I have searched and searched and cant find a how to on these things. I asked someone on another site who was selling them if they would share what type of relay and the person got all pissed and said he could not share that info because it hurts retailers. Well I know these relays cant be that expensive and I told the person that they are way over priced just as many grow supplies are. Oh well guess we will never know I would love to buy one open it up find out what makes it tick and return it.........:)

I just bought a DPDT relay off ebay for 2.50! I hooked it up and it works! Very simple actually. The Wire from the ballast goes to the relay then there are 2 more wires going to each bulb the I hooked up a timer and when it trips the relay flips one light goes off the other starts up. No problems! :thumbsup: :dance: :dance:

cool man glad it is working for you I have not tried this yet. What size light are you flipping 1000, 600, or 400. and do you know the specs on the Relay Like how many amps 20, 30, 40, 50 etc......Be careful some cheap relays might not withstand the inductive load and weld contacts..........:D

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Originally Posted by kushman45

Hello Zandor I am not sure what you mean. with these flips you are changing over to a cold bulb so no need for a cool down period. These units are sold at hydro retailers 1 ballast can run 2 rooms all they do is switch the hot side of the circuit between the bulbs. Again I was hopeing someone might have one and be able to share pictures or maybe someone has built there own. From what I know there is no time delay between the switching but I dont really know I have heard these unit use DPDT Relay's I just dont know what kind. Anyways thanks for all that are interested and your replys I have searched and searched and cant find a how to on these things. I asked someone on another site who was selling them if they would share what type of relay and the person got all pissed and said he could not share that info because it hurts retailers. Well I know these relays cant be that expensive and I told the person that they are way over priced just as many grow supplies are. Oh well guess we will never know I would love to buy one open it up find out what makes it tick and return it.........:)

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What Zandor was trying to say is that, the capacitor and the igniter need time to discharge its current load if not you'll probably pop a bulb. But about a flipflop relay all it is is a couple of relays DPDT relays hooked together so that you can have one in and two outs with the same voltage and almost same amperage. Most electricians could build this in no time, I can write you up a schematic if you tell me what exactly you want.

I am flipping 1000 watters. The relay is rated for 20 amps and 277 volts. I checked the starting amps and they were around 6 the drifted back to 5. The voltage starts low and climbs to 260 then hangs there I feel I need a heavier relay to carry the voltage but since the amps are low DO I? In my wasted little brain I figure the cords to the lamps are only 18/2 thats pretty much standard from sunlight supply anyway, My question to all you wizzards out there, is 277 vac enough?

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Originally Posted by h3o

What Zandor was trying to say is that, the capacitor and the igniter need time to discharge its current load if not you'll probably pop a bulb. But about a flipflop relay all it is is a couple of relays DPDT relays hooked together so that you can have one in and two outs with the same voltage and almost same amperage. Most electricians could build this in no time, I can write you up a schematic if you tell me what exactly you want.

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Schematic would be cool if you are in the know how of this I would like to be able to flip at least 2 1000 watt lamps..............:D

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Originally Posted by fredfarts

I am flipping 1000 watters. The relay is rated for 20 amps and 277 volts. I checked the starting amps and they were around 6 the drifted back to 5. The voltage starts low and climbs to 260 then hangs there I feel I need a heavier relay to carry the voltage but since the amps are low DO I? In my wasted little brain I figure the cords to the lamps are only 18/2 thats pretty much standard from sunlight supply anyway, My question to all you wizzards out there, is 277 vac enough?

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well 277 @ 20 amps would be ample for a 5540watt light, But also how is your relay setup? where is your line coming in from? also 18/2 is very small for a something that could run 20 amps. Id at least go with a 14/2 but better yet a 12/2 or if you can run a independent ground 12/3. since you only have a 18/2 im assuming you are only running a 110/120vac line, depending on how the relay is it might not be enough to have the coils strong enough to get the contacts to close.

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Originally Posted by kushman45

Schematic would be cool if you are in the know how of this I would like to be able to flip at least 2 1000 watt lamps..............:D

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by flip do you mean, both on at the same time, or when one goes off the other goes on?

when one goes off the other goes on?

Exactly flipflop using only one ballast..............:)

Check this picture out..............

Another Picture..............

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Originally Posted by kushman45

when one goes off the other goes on?

Exactly flipflop using only one ballast..............:)

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okay, but you do understand that you will need a seperate igniter and capacitor for each bulb right? Well i would just use a 2 DPDT relay, hook up a single switch or timer on the coils, then hook the ballast the 120v of the ballast to one relay pole and the negative on the other relay, then run your lines out the relays like you'd normally do from the ballast to cap to igniter to bulb, then when the timer is on it will make the coils contact having voltage sent to one bulb and when it goes off it will open the coils sending the voltage to the other bulb. I hope you understand cause right now my MSvisio isnt working so i cant draw up a schematic

here is a 4 light flip that uses dayton relays from grainger.com I use it on 1000 watt lights and have never had a problem. The relays come in 2 pieces the relay and the base the relay is model #5yr16 and the base is 2a582m I had this diagram made up for someone else a while back hope it helps. I had to down size it alot if anyone wants a better copy pm me and I will get it to you in a bigger size

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Originally Posted by h3o

okay, but you do understand that you will need a seperate igniter and capacitor for each bulb right? Well i would just use a 2 DPDT relay, hook up a single switch or timer on the coils, then hook the ballast the 120v of the ballast to one relay pole and the negative on the other relay, then run your lines out the relays like you'd normally do from the ballast to cap to igniter to bulb, then when the timer is on it will make the coils contact having voltage sent to one bulb and when it goes off it will open the coils sending the voltage to the other bulb. I hope you understand cause right now my MSvisio isnt working so i cant draw up a schematic

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Dude I dont think you understand people are using these without the extra igniter or capacitor. when the ballast gets flipped the capacitor is already charged and no bulb gets blown or burnt. From what I have found they just use a DPDT relay to switch the hot side of the circuit. Hey I am no expert on this subject but you are making it more complicated then it is. Unless you are an electrician it is not rocket science. Please post your schematic if you have one. I understand what you are thinking but it is not as you think. Again you do not need an extra ignitor or cap.................goodluck.........:smokin:

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Originally Posted by u.g.u

here is a 4 light flip that uses dayton relays from grainger.com I use it on 1000 watt lights and have never had a problem. The relays come in 2 pieces the relay and the base the relay is model #5yr16 and the base is 2a582m I had this diagram made up for someone else a while back hope it helps. I had to down size it alot if anyone wants a better copy pm me and I will get it to you in a bigger size

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UGU wow thanks for your input but man that schematic looks like a bunch of squiggly lines do you have a more clear picture. also how long have you been using yours have you had any issues with the relay welding or locking up........

OK read this thread good info hope the link is ok to post for learning purpose........http://www.gardenscure.com/420/showthread.php?t=76436 ......

hey man i have a flip flop box it for 7 x 1000w lights times 2 so it will run 14 lights altogether get back to me and i will try to help you the best i can. its a relatively simple concept but yes they do cost an arm and a leg i think i payed 550 for mine just for the flip flop board then add 7 ballasts and 14 bulbs and shields and your starting to really get up there in price i am a hardcore do it yourselfer as well and i would be more than happy to help you out with any info i can provide.dont listen to ppl who have never had or used one the only thing they are gonna help is burning your house down faster lol . if you need to get a hold of me you can email me at [email protected]

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Originally Posted by kushman45

Dude I dont think you understand people are using these without the extra igniter or capacitor. when the ballast gets flipped the capacitor is already charged and no bulb gets blown or burnt. From what I have found they just use a DPDT relay to switch the hot side of the circuit. Hey I am no expert on this subject but you are making it more complicated then it is. Unless you are an electrician it is not rocket science. Please post your schematic if you have one. I understand what you are thinking but it is not as you think. Again you do not need an extra ignitor or cap.................goodluck.........:smokin:

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okay have you ever heard of a "hot start?" This is when voltage is applied immediatly not letting the pressure build in the bulb first, this is what the capacitor charge time is for. Yes, you can run a 1 cap and 1 igniter for both bulb, but you are also going to be going through bulbs left and right and your lumens rate will wear down very quickly. But hey its up to you, I will not write up a schematic for that system because in my eyes its wrong, and im sure in most electricians view points they wouldnt do it unless they wanted a quick buck. And yes I am a Journeyman housing electrician and also a electronic technician, so I do have both aspects on my side.

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Originally Posted by h3o

okay have you ever heard of a "hot start?" This is when voltage is applied immediatly not letting the pressure build in the bulb first, this is what the capacitor charge time is for. Yes, you can run a 1 cap and 1 igniter for both bulb, but you are also going to be going through bulbs left and right and your lumens rate will wear down very quickly. But hey its up to you, I will not write up a schematic for that system because in my eyes its wrong, and im sure in most electricians view points they wouldnt do it unless they wanted a quick buck. And yes I am a Journeyman housing electrician and also a electronic technician, so I do have both aspects on my side.

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h3o hey I appreciate you are trying to help but Im tellin ya, you are not "Hot Starting" because you are switching to a cold bulb I hope you understand. The ones made by retailers do not have extra ballast caps or ignitors it works with just relays that switch the hot side between bulbs. The ballast stays warm and charged and just fires the cold bulb when it flips................................Thanks to everyone who is interested if you are afraid of electricity this is not for you.............goodluck........

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Originally Posted by surreyB.C.

hey man i have a flip flop box it for 7 x 1000w lights times 2 so it will run 14 lights altogether get back to me and i will try to help you the best i can. its a relatively simple concept but yes they do cost an arm and a leg i think i payed 550 for mine just for the flip flop board then add 7 ballasts and 14 bulbs and shields and your starting to really get up there in price i am a hardcore do it yourselfer as well and i would be more than happy to help you out with any info i can provide.dont listen to ppl who have never had or used one the only thing they are gonna help is burning your house down faster lol . if you need to get a hold of me you can email me at [email protected]

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Hey if there is any way you can open it up and either take pictures of the system and post them here that would be a big help. Or if you could read the relays for a name Like Omron or Square D. Also how long have you been using yours..........

h3o also I dont think hydro retailers would sell a product that is going to shorten bulb life and cause lumen loss. I was an electrical apprentice for a few years myself. I dont have a very much experience with the way HID's work. I have Hung high bay and low bay Hids in warehouse's before. And they were tirggered by lighting contactors. I always thought to shorten a bulbs life it would have to have the incorrect voltage wired to it. Any way I understand what you are saying about, by the cap charging up to help ignite the HID bulb............Well hopefully we can work together to find out the correct way to build these. I know a lot of canadians use these............

Hey like I said go ahead but i got my electronic technician certificate from the military and hid bulbs is what we used for perimeter security so i did deal with both HPS and MV system everytime we had to setup a new perimeter for the systems i dealt with. But goodluck too you.

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Originally Posted by h3o

Hey like I said go ahead but i got my electronic technician certificate from the military and hid bulbs is what we used for perimeter security so i did deal with both HPS and MV system everytime we had to setup a new perimeter for the systems i dealt with. But goodluck too you.

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well you are correct checked with some one and you could possibly harm your bulbs and ballast if you dont let the ballast cool down so you would need 2 timers and have the ballast shut off first say at 12:00 then at 12:05 have your second timer flip the relay to the other bulb/room. then at 12:10 have your ballast kick back on and would work good.........

It loooks wierd but the only place were the wires connect is in the yellow squares indicating a wire nut and the 8 wires to the relay if the wires look like the cross any were else is due to limited space in the drawing also the blown up pic I have has all the directions on it.

I feel like the freaking flip flop police, traveling from board to board to correct peoples misinformation regarding the workings and standards for such a simple device.

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Originally Posted by fredfarts

I feel I need a heavier relay to carry the voltage but since the amps are low DO I?

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Considering the open circuit voltage for all 1000 watt HID lamps is in the 400-500 Volts RMS yes, you do need a heavier relay.

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In my wasted little brain I figure the cords to the lamps are only 18/2 thats pretty much standard from sunlight supply anyway, My question to all you wizzards out there, is 277 vac enough?

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If you will look closely at your lamps cord, it should say somewhere on it what type of cord it is. The industry standard is either SO or STO cord. This is a reference to the cord insulation standards. SO and STO cords are rated for 600 volts and 18 gauge has a max ampacity of 10 amps. The NEC code standard most everyone uses as a universal ampacity reference for wiring is specific to THHN and should not be used as a one size fits all standard.

So you should not continue using the relay you have!!It does not meet the requirements for a flip flop relay for any 1000 watt HID lamp.

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Originally Posted by H3O

the capacitor and the igniter need time to discharge its current load if not you'll probably pop a bulb.

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You don't seem to have much of an understanding of the operation of an HID lamp. Here is a good link to an article detailing the use of capacitors in HID circuits.
The ignitor is a capacitor that supplies a high voltage pulse for a very short duration(one microsecond), it will pulse continuously until the arc is established, then because electricity follows the path of least resistance the current will no loger be traveling through the ignitor (high resistance) but rather through the arc tube(negative resistance charachteristic). It has to discharge in order to light the arc initially, so your statment about it needing to be discharged or else possibly "pop" a bulb is nonesense.
The other capactior in an HID lamp circuit, other than the ignitor, is in the circuit for power factor correction and in certain ballast circuits to help limit the current to the lamp. It is chargeing and dischargeing 60 times a second each in 60 herts alternating current. It does not need time to cool off or discharge its stored voltage (not current, you can't store current!)

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okay have you ever heard of a "hot start?" This is when voltage is applied immediatly not letting the pressure build in the bulb first, this is what the capacitor charge time is for. Yes, you can run a 1 cap and 1 igniter for both bulb, but you are also going to be going through bulbs left and right and your lumens rate will wear down very quickly.

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Your understanding and use of the term "hot start" is completley wrong. As kushman tried to explain. the proper term is "Hot Restrike" and refers to trying to relight the arc in a HOT hid lamp. When ever the lamp is hot, more precisely when ever the arc tube is hot, the gas pressures inside it are higher. Because of the higher pressure, the voltage needed to get the arc to jump the gap between the electrodes is higher. Ballasts are only capable of supplying a very narrow range of voltage to the lamp, therefore you have to let the lamp cool enough to get the pressure down enough so the voltage needed is within the range supplied by the ballast. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with capacitor charge time.

Yes Hot Restrikes are detrimental to the bulb, but flip flops do not produce a hot restrike scenerio. So your completley off target with your statments.

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Originally Posted by ugo

uses dayton relays from grainger.com I use it on 1000 watt lights and have never had a problem. The relays come in 2 pieces the relay and the base the relay is model #5yr16 and the base is 2a582m

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Your relay is not rated for the voltage neccesary for 1000 watt HID flip flops. yours is rated for 300 volts and 15 amps resistive, the 1000 watt will have 400-500 volts rms open circuit voltage and the load is induvtive not resistive. i highly recomend discontinueing its use and acquireing a properly sized relay.





Ballasts (transformer, capacitor and when needed ignitor) do not need a cool down time before being switched on. Bulbs do need a cool down time before being switched on.


toke it easy :smokin:

Thanks Stonewall for showing up over here and layin down the law on this flipflop system.................:thumbsup:

Hey Stonewall ya got any pictures of one you have built would be awsome to see............

stonewall jackson
I have never had a problem with it mine is a store bought unit I opened it after purchase to see how it worked incase I needed to build another. I used it on 4 1000 watts 2 on 2 off for nearly 2 years. when I saw that it was for only 10 amps I kinda wondered I am sure for a few more $ you could get I higher amperage

I don't have a camera right now, but mine looks just like the one in the gardenscure thread. I switch both leads to the bulb, so there is no current present in the bulb that is not lit. So one relay per ballast.

toke it easy. :smokin: