DWC, I need some advice and guidance

Hello, this is my first DWC grow, but I have quite a few soil grows under my belt. I haven't started yet, Im trying to get preparation done first :thumbsup:

So I am doing a 15 basket DWC grow. I am using eight 18gal totes made by steralite. I have 12" diameter baskets, 2 per tote, which means one tote will have one lady all by itself. The air pump im using is a 385 watt pond aerator, 300L per minute, 0.05MPa, and it comes with a 20 outlet adapter. Here's my first question: If I plan on running eight 5" air discs, one per tote, will I need to do something with the other outlets on the air pump? Will I need to buy an adapter to fit just 8? Also, will a 5" disc from this pump be enough for one 18gal tote? Something else I'm unsure about is air pump power quality. If it's possible to run 8 legs off a 20 outlet adapter, would running additional legs to the same tote increase the amount of air pumped into the tote? Or By adding another leg, (#9), to say one tote, will it just divide the power by that fraction? Hope that question made sense..

The other thing I really wanted to ask about is nutrient solution in the reservoir. Starting out, and further along in the grow. So I have foxfarms hydro nutrients. Tigerbloom, bigbloom, and Growbig. So in the beginning, I wont be using tigerbloom as it says not to. But with bigbloom, it calls for 2tsp > gal. And with growbig, it calls for 1tsp > gal. Here's my question: When making up the reservoir, do you add the BB and GB doses per gal, or individually per gal? So should every gallon of water in the tote have a ratio of 1tsp GB and 2tsp BB? I haven't tested how much water I will need to get about 2 inches of a basket underwater, but lets say it's 10gal. The only other way I could think of mixing the nutes, is say 5gal treated with BB, and the other 5gal treated with GB. Also, do nutrients go bad after so long? I've had the fox farms trio pack for over a year. I placed half the concentrations in jugs, then kept the other halfs in their original containers. Can I use these for the grow? I would imagine air has gotten to these for a while now...

So I do plan on using hydrotron and rapid rooter plugs. I've read that you don't put the newly sprouts into the dwc system right away, but actually to grow them a little before? If I plan on transplanting them into there baskets, how big should they be when I do so? I realize these are big baskets, and I didnt know what size I needed when I bought em, but I know I can just veg longer to make up for it. Also, I'm using two 400 watt MH/HPS batwings as my light setup. Im thinking I may need one more...

Thanks for reading, sorry for the long post but I figured I'd get it all out there.

1) with your air question I guess the input I could give there would be to buy 8 more 5" disks and run 2 disks per tote. The more air the better and this will cut u down to only 4 ports to block off on the adapter.
2) I have never used FF nutes but as for mixing, you can do that anyway you want to. Using your 10 gal estimate you can fill the tote and add directly to tote and stir or you can put 9 gals in tote and last gal mix 10x strength or lastly mix each gal seperatly. I would go with #1 and just mix all in tote.
3) Make sure you rinse and soak that Tron in PH balanced water until the water you are soaking in stays at the PH you started with while soaking.
4) Yes your gonna need another light. Using the batwing style I hope you have a way to deal with heat.

Thank's for the reply!

For #1, that makes sense. Are there things you can by that block the outlets on the air pump divider?

For #2 I was kind of confused a little still... On the nutrient bottles, for GB it says 1 tsp >> gal, and for BB 2tsp >> gal. So if we use a 10 gal estimate, each gallon in the tote will need 1 tsp of GB and 2 tsp of BB OR is it that 5 of the gal's will need the 1 tsp of GB and the other 5 gal will need 2 tsp of BB? So in option 1 we'd have a total of 10tsp of GB and 20 tsp of BB instead of option 2 of 5tsp GB and 10tsp of BB. I think im convinced it's option one, just wanted clarification cause I'm new to rez mixing.

For #3, excellent, I bet this solves a lot of Ph problems down the road. So you want to essentially get the tron to a 5.8ish Ph? Any idea on what Ph is expected of the tron before I soak it? So like what water Ph will I need to soak the tron in is my question.

For #4, yeah those lights dont output much for heat which is nice. Optimal room temp is 76 degrees I believe, and water temp in rez is optimal at 68 degrees? Fahrenheit that is.

1) I would check into some vaccum caps, bought at any auto parts store or Lowes and Home dePot.
2) For 10 gal mix you would need 10 tsp of GB (50 ml) and 20 tsp of BB (100ml)
3) First start of soaking new Tron PH is probably high 7's or so. 5.8 would be the magic number you want to get to and that is what you want your soaking water at, 5.8
4) Yes rez at 68 is great. Have you used these lights before?? You might be surprized how much heat they put out. What size area are we talking about??

I went to my local Nursery and found that they have those clamps that go on the extra outlets I will have for my air pump. :thumbsup: I just need to run a little bit of hose off each outlet, then clamp it up.

So for the Tron soaking... Adjust water at 5.8 Ph and drop the Tron in, let soak for a few hours? After, check Ph, see where it's at, and repeat until you are at 5.8?

I have used these lights before, on a few grows. But, I have never had a grow in the summer months... The two I would run kept the room at about 78-80 degrees. The room is about 90 sq FT with approx 8' ceilings.

One question I just thought of: When doing DWC, if your Rez is like 80gal total (estimation of 8totesx10gal) and it will probably go down to maybe 65-70gal, do you have a crap load of water off hand for the topping off/change process? The whole purpose would be to eliminate chlorinated water by letting it sit, but to do that I would need a LOT of sitting water... Any suggestions, tips? All I have access to is tap water..

Oh and lastly, I was browsing the DIY carbon filter and couldn't help but think they only apply to inline systems? I have a very small intake/outtake for fresh air for the room, something that would never fit a filter I'd like to make. Could I make a filter that just sits in one place, has a fan that pulls the air from the room into it to scrub? Maybe put it up high near the ceiling because odor rises? My theory is if I did that, it would stop the stinky air from filling up the room, and possibly leaking out. (Just a theory, I could be way off). I would also have a fan on the other side of the room where it would be pulling outside air in.

Those are some giant res' man. Why not use a 5Gallon bucket per plant, or are you goin for Trees?
This way you could individually address each plant, should they have a problem. (deficiency).

Always use fresh nutes.
When you see that your res is low, top with ph-d plain water.
--Say I had a 5G res; Once iv'e put in 5G of plain(topping water), its time for a fresh mix.

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Could I make a filter that just sits in one place, has a fan that pulls the air from the room into it to scrub?

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Make one, it works! I made one as a back up and it works well.
Attachment 277709

Hey SMP, I figured they would be big, I just didn't know if they'd be overkill or what. Those totes are the only size of container I could think of that would fit the baskets I bought without spending the extra money on individual black 5gal buckets which are like 7-8$ each. So in hindsight, I spent half of that. Also, when I bought the totes, drilled the holes and etc, I thought only having 8 air stones would be nice as opposed to 15. But as Tiny said, I should put two in a tote so I didn't plan that right. But, like you said, I'm hopeful to grow trees since I've got the space to do it. Today I shined a 500W MH into a tote to check if it was light proof, its not. So it looks like good ol fashion spray paint?

Oh and I forgot, that is an excellent looking filter! I imagine thats how I'm going to make mine. How big of a fan is that?

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Today I shined a 500W MH into a tote to check if it was light proof, its not. So it looks like good ol fashion spray paint?

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Havnt tried spray paint, but I use black duct tape.

I think its around 6" diameter fan.

Black duct tape works good, do you 2ply it?

I had a question about watering right when the sprout is introduced to light. If using RR plugs and when they jump out, they'll get placed in a bowl like pot that roots can grow through with the tron. Can I just use ph'd water for the first week, or do I need some kind of nute mix? Also, Im thinking hand watering for the 2nd week will be needed. Same question.

Plain PH'd water is exactly what you want for first couple weeks and hand watering will be the chore until roots pop out of basket and head for water. What you wrote for soaking is correct. just rinse and repeat until water stays at the PH you put it at before soaking.

Thank you Tiny and SMP

I had a question about soaking the tron. The first soak didnt do the trick, so do i need to dry the tron before soaking it in lower ph again? Or can I just soak for a while, check the newly raised ph, strain the tron, and place back in another container with say 5.8 ph? Also, is it effective to use lower then 5.8 initially to make this process quicker?

no need to dry tron, just dump water and start again. It might take 3-4 soaks before you get PH down. You could try lower than 5.8 but remember if you go to far then it has to be brought up and trust me you dont want to play seesaw with PH. How long you soak it for? Only takes couple hours or so per soak.

Hey Tiny thanks for the reply. The first soak I did for just over an hour, the 2nd I did for about 3 hours. The third soak has been over night but I think they are Ph'd now.

I've had another Ph question since the dawn of time and now I remember to ask it. So when I was dropping the ph of the water before I put the tron to soak, I went to far down, had to bring it up, then slightly down again. I remember in my first few grows, I was juvinile and when adjusting Ph, I'd go to far down, then up, then down, about 4 times. I just really would like to know if this has any affects on anything? I notice once you have some of the Ph up or down in, the rate at which the Ph increases or decreases per same volume of added mix isn't as much... It makes sense to me that the molecules need more to grab on to since the water isnt as pure, or is it a dissolvent thing? In this case, does temperature matter?

I just checked the Ph of my over night soak and it was 6.7! :( It seemed to be holding at 5.8ish before the last soak and I know I ph'd the 3rd water batch before I dropped tron in there... so Im not quite sure what happened.

If it was new tron did you rinse the tron before the soaking? The thing you want to remember about PH adjustment is a little at a time. As far as temp I believe temp swings must change the PH to a certain extent, if not the why would a PH pen have Temp compensation? lol. there was a really good ph write up that someone posted a while back, I will see if I can find it.

Yeah I ran a garden hose through the tron bag for an hour, tried to shift the pellets around through the cycle. (I poked a lot of small holes in the bag bottom before I rinsed of course. Wasnt seeing any red residue afterwards. The hose water pH was like 7.3 . And I guess I was foolish with the soaking because I used hose cold water. I should just plan on using heated bath tub water from now on? How else can you get large quantities of good temp water? Yeah I kind of learned my lesson with the pH swings.. I just was wondering if it had immense consequences or what not. I took chemistry in college so I understand a lot of the molecule reactions, but still with pH, I never considered temp I guess. But with chemistry, we studied solubility and concentrations, not so much levels and consequences. I guess thats BIO Chem.. lol Yeah If you find that link I'd love to take a read, thanks.

http://boards.cannabis.com/hydroponi...luctuates.html
Not exactly what I was thinking it contained but still very good read with allot of info Hydro growers should know :jointsmile:

Thanks for posting that Tiny, that was a good read. Takes me back to when I was in chemistry class talking about the molecules. Even with an understanding of it, it still seems way over my head to adjust pH by making your own nutrient base. I personally will stick with a premade buy in the store nutrient pack. I heard about FF, so that's what Im going to run with unless anyone knows of cheaper or better for your buck nutes. Back to chem class, I know temperature directly effects solubility, so it does effect pH levels but only in a sense of maybe how easily the plant can uptake nutes? But as for my previous posting I am still fuzzy on pH. When making a water bath to soak the tron, Im just going to use room temp from now on. My only theory is if you check the pH of water that is somewhat cold, and by adding your ph upper or downer, it wont fully dilute until it hits room temp? So therefore, if you get an acceptable ph level at cold temp, its going to be altered at room temp... due to the excess molecules finally being absorbed.. Haha I hope thats all it is!

Ok so I think I got a conclusive answer on pH and temperature proportions. I went to the local nursery and they have these premade pH and ppm bags with accurate already known levels. This is how you check your meters, and calibrate them. On these bags, they have temp scales, and with pH, a range of 32F to 120F, the range difference in pH is only 0.15 total. So the 20-30 degree difference from tap water to room temp is negligible.

thanx for putting that last bit in. I knew temp affected the PH but didnt know that it was so minor.

I think I am now at the stage that requires nutes. I have a few questions and concerns here. So out of my tap, I have a naturally high pH of like 7.3 . I know nutes lower the pH, so im assuming I should put the nutes in the rez before I adjust the ph? Also, I have my ppm meter, I see the ranges I need on fox farms nutrient schedule and such. But when it calls out for a certain amount of concentrate per gallon and you give the rez that, shouldnt the ppm be in the specified range? If not, what do I do? If the ppm is too high, add more water to the rez? too low, take out and add a touch of more nutes? Also, doesnt pH upper/downer affect the ppm range too? Insight on this would be insanely appreciated. Thanks

I have never had a problem with PH adjustment affecting ppm's. With your mixture if ppm's to high dilute with water. If to low add a very small amount at a time. 1 thing to remember is that our nute manufactures dont gauge their mix on what is grown here. It will be trial and error until you get your own mix where you want it to be.

Awesome Tiny, thanks for the reply. Yeah I thought if you abided by their nute schedule you'd be close, good to know. Also, with pH not affecting the ppm level, I can pH at the very end when I get my nute mix in the rez at an ok ppm range. So I tried out the 18gal totes and as far as one would want to get in a project before backing out, I decided to go the 5gal bucket way. Had to many problems arise, but also it makes more sense and it's way easier.

Ok so im a little confused with what ppm level i should go with. By following fox farms tsp/gal for big bloom and grow big, the ppm range says it should be about 1120-1260. I measured as acurately as I could and when I checked my ppm with my primo hanna, it was only 400!? I did a google and find a lot of different answers. Some saying 400 is ok, but with different nutes, not ff. But anyways, im off by 700.. And also, adding more nutes makes ppm go down? Is there a good thread explaining that? Thanks

you would have to search the site for a topic on nutes and as far as ppm goes down with more nutes doesn't make a bit of sence

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Originally Posted by Salvein211

Is there a good thread explaining that? Thanks

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Here ya go ------> http://boards.cannabis.com/plant-pro...-my-issue.html <------I just helped someone else understand nutes and ppm levels.... Read through the two pages and if you still have questions, ask them back here on your thread....

And when adding nutes, ppms rise....anyone who says different is probably dyslexic....

CGI::::::

I've been trying to reply for days but I think this site was on the fritz. Thanks for posting that thread, It was a good read. A few things I picked up are that ppm increases if you add anything to the water that isn't pure water. So in my instance was operator error. My big dilemma is fox farms schedule and what they say you should abide to. I followed their 2nd week dosing which was 1tbsp of bb, and 2tsp of gb per gal, and with my rez at like 3.75gal initially, I checked the ppms on all of them and they hover around 400 ppm. The chart calls out for 1120-1260. How in the heck would you get that high with this kind of dosage? I read a lot of threads and it seems like people increase their nute strength almost weekly? Well if your plants are drinking the water and everything is going good, they should be drinking water/nutes at same proportions.. I know this wouldn't happen unless you had exact pH for your strain but still. Im confused on how you would achieve this. Also, I read that 400 is ok for some strains to begin with.. but I think you still end up increasing ppms.. Im running two strains in my grow this time. White Skunk indica and blackberry sativa. How do you know what ppms are good for what strains? Below I explain how I understand your pH altering and finding the best pH possible, but how do you do this with ppms? What am I missing..

I found it very interesting on how you talked about dialing in on true pH for the strain your growing. As I understand it, you check ppms daily and keep a log. All you do is adjust pH up or down, and keep a chart of ppms. When ppms increase and continue to increase, you are going in the wrong direction because the plant is stealing the h20 out of the res, correct? Then if ppms are dropping on a day to day basis due to your pH changes, you chart the most significant change in pH which will be the best pH to run your plants for optimum nute intake? Also, you can dose the shit out of your plants when you have the correct pH? When your plants burn its directly related to pH levels, salt levels.. ? Im a newbie so I wouldnt even try this until I complete my first dro grow. Thanks for reading.

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Originally Posted by Salvein211

My big dilemma is fox farms schedule and what they say you should abide to. I followed their 2nd week dosing which was 1tbsp of bb, and 2tsp of gb per gal, and with my rez at like 3.75gal initially, I checked the ppms on all of them and they hover around 400 ppm. The chart calls out for 1120-1260. How in the heck would you get that high with this kind of dosage? -The recommended doses on the bottles are just guides to give you an idea of how much is enough. But if you are at 400ppms and want to be at 1200, simply triple the amount nutes in the water....


I read a lot of threads and it seems like people increase their nute strength almost weekly? Well if your plants are drinking the water and everything is going good, they should be drinking water/nutes at same proportions.. I know this wouldn't happen unless you had exact pH for your strain but still. Im confused on how you would achieve this. -After a couple of grows, you will notice that plants will drink more water than nutes when temps are too warm.... And will eat up nutes like candy when temp is correct.... pH is not the only factor that determines nutrient uptake.... Ideally, you want them to take in more nutes than water, proportionately....


Also, I read that 400 is ok for some strains to begin with.. but I think you still end up increasing ppms.. Im running two strains in my grow this time. White Skunk indica and blackberry sativa. How do you know what ppms are good for what strains? Below I explain how I understand your pH altering and finding the best pH possible, but how do you do this with ppms? What am I missing.. -You aren't missing anything other than te experience.... Right now you are over-thinking the situation.... 400ppms is a good place to start, work your way up from their until you notice a negative effect....which can be easily fixed if caught before it becomes a prob.... But as long as you build nuts tolerance correctly, you shouldn't have a prob with over ferting....


I found it very interesting on how you talked about dialing in on true pH for the strain your growing. As I understand it, you check ppms daily and keep a log. All you do is adjust pH up or down, and keep a chart of ppms. When ppms increase and continue to increase, you are going in the wrong direction because the plant is stealing the h20 out of the res, correct? -If I'm reading this part correctly, you water level drops and your ppms rise correct??? Is that before or after you top off your res??? Because if you didn't top off the res with fresh water, then you are taking an incorrect reading.... Your ppms should never be higher than when you initially placed fresh nutes into the res for that week....

Then if ppms are dropping on a day to day basis due to your pH changes, you chart the most significant change in pH which will be the best pH to run your plants for optimum nute intake? -pH fluctuates, plain and simple.... It fluctuates even more when you have small amounts of water.... What you want is to get the pH to fluctuate in the area that is best for nutrient uptake.... For example, if you notice that your pH is fluctuating up, you want to counter it and drop it so it will fluctuate from low to high.... So if when you topoff a fresh res and you leave your pH and 5.6 and 12hrs later it's at 6.1.... You drop it down to 5.2 so as to find out if 12 hrs later it will be at 5.7.... Know what I mean....find the balance...

Also, you can dose the shit out of your plants when you have the correct pH? -No, you will kill them.... In this case less IS more....not really but you never want to dose the shit out of them....until you know what you are doing....

When your plants burn its directly related to pH levels, salt levels.. ?-In some cases yes but not always.... It's very easy to over fert in hydro.... Learn to build nute tolerance....

Im a newbie so I wouldnt even try this until I complete my first dro grow. Thanks for reading.

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:jointsmile:....

CGI::::::

Wow CGI, thanks for dissecting my post :) Greatly appreciated! :thumbsup:

Ok so yeah I'm not going to follow the bottles advice for ppm range. Is there anyway to find what ppm range strains generally like? I know some strains tolerate or have more of a resistance to nute burn, but surely there are others that just love additional nutes?

Yeah your right, im over thinking the situation lol. I guess what I'm going to try is to increase ppms by 100 every time I change out the rez. So next time I will shoot for 500 and just see what happens. And of course if the plants start to develop a problem, I will adjust accordingly. (Dilute) ..

Good advice with the pH, I'm starting a log and I will check daily or every two days were the ppms and pH are going. But thats the FUN of hydro! I already enjoy it more then soil.

When I said ... Quote "I found it very interesting on how you talked about dialing in on true pH for the strain your growing. As I understand it, you check ppms daily and keep a log. All you do is adjust pH up or down, and keep a chart of ppms. When ppms increase and continue to increase, you are going in the wrong direction because the plant is stealing the h20 out of the res, correct?" Unquote ...... I haven't had to add any top off water. I was thinking in theory, I haven't actually seen any changes or have a need to take action right now. I was thinking upon how I would find the pH my ladies flourish at. But as you said, pH jumps around, usually in one direction, and countering this is important. I understand that fully. And time will tell how I need to counter it. So that gives me my answer on how to find a good pH range to try and sit at.

My biggest concerns was that I wasn't having enough nutes in my water for the plants, and when I saw my ppm range being low compared to the bottle... I was lost. But really, the ladies are doin great. Thanks again for the advice.

how old are your plants??

Hey Tiny, I think they are about 3 weeks old(give a few days, I dont think they are younger then that at all). They kind of had their life cycle delayed a little due to me changing the rez containers and what not, but for the last week, a pure 7 days, they have been loving life and growing well! They are pure green and the roots are just now starting to poke through and enter the water so today im lowering the water level so there is more of an air gap. I think they have been in this rez for 7 days or so. The plants have still been uptaking nutes I think because I had my bubbles bouncing into the bottom of the baskets. :thumbsup: On a side note, the plants leaves are curling up, in a form of a taco, and I have my suspicions why.... I read some interesting info on a lot of peoples threads but all I could find for this is soil. Its coming down to heat stress, as the plant is sweating.. Caused by lights being to close or too much wind velocity for extended periods of time. Well the lights were a little close because I hadnt moved them in a week, and the babies got a little bit taller... So we will see if thats all I needed. In the room im using, I do have an intake for fresh air. Also, I do have a fan that blows over the canopy. This isnt even close to keeping the air temps down, so I keep the main door halfway open and use a fan to blow in the air from the rest of the house. I can usually keep the room at a solid 82, but there are a few times I saw 90 :( Weird and wacky Washington weather... The only other thing I read that could be a cause is a nute deficiency in Fe or Mg .. I kinda doubt that since I gave them a good dose of nutes when I mixed the rez.

plant only 3 weeks old wont take ppm over 1000. should be around 400-500ppm. Taco look can also be caused by to much N. Your big ppm numbers dont hit until flowering anyways.

Oh I forgot to ask, when should I change my rez and how often?

Hey thanks for that ppm advice, that makes me feel better. So I tested ph today and its 7.0 ... Then the ppms are 350ish. A solid drop of 50-100 ppms between all the rez. I was going to drop the water level unless I need to change rez all together? Hopefully that N deficiency is directly related to pH levels?

I always did weekly rez changes and dont be to quick to dropping the water level, you WANT roots in the water so dont make them chase it to much. Btw a pic or 2 would do wonders :D

Well, the water level is an issue isn't it? That's what happens when you use the larger container. How often you change your water depends more on it's condition. Some hydro ferts are so stable that you may not need to change them much. Alot of people like to change once a week, but if ppm and pH remain stable, you might not need to worry about changing them so much. Especially if you're using large containers. Getting rid of alot of water isn't going to be easy. That's one reason why 5 gallon buckets are good to use. Use of more water creates a need to use more ferts which costs you more in the long run. This should work but you'll also need alot of air to keep the roots from drowning. It's really a trial and error kind of process. You've got to do it for a while and when you have something that works, stick with it.

Hey Polish, yeah I agree, and I did switch to the 5gal buckets. Plants are doing superb, all about a foot tall, green as can be and bushy. I think they have been in their 5gal buckets for 3 weeks now. So in all, they are 4 weeks give or take a day or two. I haven't changed my rez once, but from what Im seeing and how Polish explained it, do I need to? Here's an update:

My ppm is around 300-400 still!!! The plants arent intaking the nutes, but they are very healthy.. I dont understand this. They started at about 400-450, and in the 3 weeks they've had this nute batch, they have only gotten into the low 300's on some. Some are 400 still.

One other thing: the room has been about 80 the whole time. In the first few weeks, it got up to 85 a few times, but ive put a stop to that and havent seen a temp over 82 since.

When you say roots drowning, heres my question: When you have well established ladies in 5 gal buckets, about how many inches of gap should the water be from the bottom of the basket? I've got it at about 1-2 inches below.

pH wise, I started at 5.8. The first time I had to top off, they had gotten to 7.0 pH. I topped off with about 5.2 pH. I had to top off last night, and they were at about 6.5, so I used about 5.2pH for top off. (using tap water). Am I not on the ball enough with pH to allow nute intake? I know it needs to be close to 5.8 for best results. Just from my own experience, messing with pH and stressing over it isnt worth the hassle, especially if the girls are healthy. I could add pH down to the rez's every other day to really keep it in range.... Do I need to do that? But as I said, I see no concerns atm.

sounds to me like everything is starting to work quite well for u. I suggest continue what u have going on now and keep an eye on the girls, if something is wrong they will tell you.