first big grow by twitch

i have had 3 other grows on this site where i had 1 to 4 females, now i am
doing a grow where i a hoping for at least 8 if not more. i started with 50 seeds
of different genetics from people i have gotten over the past 4 years.

i now have 26 seedlings they are under a 4 ft 4 bulb t5 lights, they are in fox
farm potting soil and in the next couple of weeks they will start on a half dose
of fox farm nutes

i also have a 400 watt switchable ballast with an hps and i am getting a mh
bulb for it tomorrow

if yall have any suggestions let me know
here are some pics

first question how high should i keep the t5 of the top of the plants?
right now its about 3 to 4 inch from the light... higher lower same

put your hand on top of the plant and bring the lights down till you hand starts to get warm. take it back a bit and that should be good. The closer the better.

i have seen people us hps lights for veg and flower what are the downs sides to
this anyone know?

From what I've read(in the lighting section of this forum).

MH put out a higher blue spectrum and are best for Vegitative growth. There is also some belief that the UV put out by these produces more resins.

HPS put out a higher RED spectrum thus simulating the Fall sun. Which in turn is needed to flower.

It has been said running both the entire time is best. However next best is MH to grow and HPS to flower

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vancefish

HPS put out a higher RED spectrum thus simulating the Fall sun. Which in turn is needed to flower.

---

the red spectrum or fall sun is not needed to flower. what is needed is the amount of darkness to cause a plant to flower. 12+ hours of solid darkness.

everything else you said sounded good thought!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twitch

first question how high should i keep the t5 of the top of the plants?
right now its about 3 to 4 inch from the light... higher lower same

---

you can put the t-5s pretty much on your plants and they won't burn. they have much more surface area than a CFL so they don't get as hot to the touch. so just get them as close as you can.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by canni13is

put your hand on top of the plant and bring the lights down till you hand starts to get warm. take it back a bit and that should be good. The closer the better.

---

a good rule of thumb is to keep your hand on top of the plants and lower your light, when after ~5 seconds you can't keep your hand their any longer due to heat then back up the light just a bit.

good growin!


-shake

Yes AND No!

Red spectrum is not NEEDED to make flowers. IT IS however a factor in the size and potency of those flowers. You could flower a plant under pure blue CFLs sure, but lets see you pull the same kind of weight per plant at a high red spectrum HPS.

Are you actually saying RED has no benefit to flowering???:wtf:

and sorry,

I've been reading all I can about lighting for about a month now. I understand that this doesn't make me an expert. However I see RED spectrum lighting in nearly every lighing fixture intended for flowering. I've read post after post saying HIGH red spectum is best for flowering. Although I've seen people's grow logs who don't and they DO get flowers. Just not the bigger denser ones the higher red does.

I read a VERY long explanation for this around a month ago. Something to do with not only what the plant is growing but what the plant uses in the nutes and what photo synthasis is doing with those compounds to grow the flowers.

Unfortunatly I need to go to work instead of hunting proof that RED spectrum is best for flowering. I only posted to this thread to point out HIGH RED HPS is what is best for flower and MH was best to grow (as Twitch asked about):thumbsup:.

no thats actually not what i was asking about...
i understand that red for flower and the blue for veg, and what shake was
saying is it isn't the color of the light that sets the plant into flowering its the
fact that u turn the lights off for 12 hours, the flowering process only happens
in total darkness and if that darkness last for 12 hours thats how u sex the and
for flower not by changing the light but by changing how long they are on and
off for

what i was asking is what is the disadvantage of using an hps the whole way
through? i mean i ma getting an MH today anyway i was just curious as to why
i see these people with the monster grows that they use hps on there veg
stage too.... i was kinda hoping for a response from someone that uses the
hps for veg, no offence to the people that put their :twocents: in
oh and i dont think a MH can help with resin production since all the resin
production i have seen comes in the flower stage

You use the MH along with the HPS in flowering stage. It helps create light that is more similar to the sun.

and what if i use the hps for veg and flower

Using the HPS for flower is not a "bad" thing just not preferrable. Everyone here would rather use MH over HPS for vegatation as someone stated above it gives off a blue spectrum wich the plant loves for vegatation. BUT you can get HPS bulbs with bluespectrum in them, now I havent tryed vegging with one yet but I can imagine it would be alright since HPS gives out more lumens then MH.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vancefish

From what I've read(in the lighting section of this forum).

MH put out a higher blue spectrum and are best for Vegitative growth. There is also some belief that the UV put out by these produces more resins.

HPS put out a higher RED spectrum thus simulating the Fall sun. Which in turn is needed to flower.

It has been said running both the entire time is best. However next best is MH to grow and HPS to flower

---

This whole thread is a mess. What I said above and quoted myself on is what almost ALL of the lighting posts say. My only mistake was saying RED was NEEDED to flower. What I should have said was RED is useful to the plant during flower, not NEEDED.

MH to grow the plant. (uses blue spectrum for growth)

HPS to flower the plant. (uses RED spectrum for best flowering)

MH AND HPS for all stages (uses Blue to grow, uses red during flower and SOME PEOPLE SAY,... The UV in the MH CAN (supposedly) create more resins during flower, which is normally missing in a HPS. THUS this (RUNNING BOTH DURING FLOWER) is considered the best method.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twitch

what i was asking is what is the disadvantage of using an hps the whole way
through? i mean i ma getting an MH today anyway i was just curious as to why
i see these people with the monster grows that they use hps on there veg
stage too.... i was kinda hoping for a response from someone that uses the
hps for veg, no offence to the people that put their :twocents: in
oh and i dont think a MH can help with resin production since all the resin
production i have seen comes in the flower stage

---

And THIS is exactly the info I was trying to get across.

You can (and many people do) use HPS for ALL stages.

The reason HPS is not "prefered" during the growth stages is the plant uses/needs far more BLUE light to grow then RED. The only disadvantage to using MH to grow is the lack of RED during flower and the only disadvantage to HPS for growing is the shortage of blue during vegitative.

This plant produces RESINS to protect itself from UV (sunburn). Thus SOME PEOPLE SAY using the HPS to get your RED spectrum (for bigger flowers) AND a MH at the same time (for UV) will produce higher resin consentration. I personally DO NOT know that it's true. It does make sence to me if this really is the purpose of the resins.

This being re-stated I repeat,... The disadvantage to HPS for all stages is the LACK OF BLUE LIGHT in most HPS bulbs for great vegitative growth!

And YES Joel HPS IS considered best for flowering. MH is best for VEG because of the BLUE! I think you reversed it there.

Sorry this is getting so confusing. I said RED was NEEDED, and that seems to have been taken to say it wouldn't flower at all without RED. This is NOT what I meant. I just meant to say RED is advantagous during flower. However the increased BLUE from a MH is better for veg., when RED is not really needed at all.

In my first log on here I used a 400w hortilux super hps bulb from begging to end. I did start them of course under cfl just till they could take the hps.

This current log I am doing I switched from a basic 400W MH and then to a Super Spectrum Enhanced Hps for my current flowering stage. I bought the Hortilux bulb that offers 25% more energy in Violet, Blue and Green spectrum than standard High Pressure Sodium.

So not sure as of yet if it has noticeable differences of growth compared with a normal hps. If it does then then a person wouldn't have to think as much about running both during flower.With a switchable ballast you can run mh just for veg then switch to the enhanced hps bulb or one bulb str8 thru.
There is also a Dual arc 1000w MH&HPS that puts out 110,000 lumens and does look cool. Anyone messed with those type of bulbs? :stoned:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vancefish

Yes AND No!

Red spectrum is not NEEDED to make flowers. IT IS however a factor in the size and potency of those flowers.

---

ok, first off spectrum doesn't play hardly a part, if any, in flower size or potency for that matter. all spectrum is is the color temperature of the light that your bulb(s) put out.

genetics will be the biggest single factor. period. the type of light would be next, not spectrum. see your example below for more on this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vancefish

You could flower a plant under pure blue CFLs sure, but lets see you pull the same kind of weight per plant at a high red spectrum HPS.

---

ummmm no shit!? of course you are not gonna put on as much weight with CFLs as opposed to an HPS. not to mention wft is pure blue light. we are talking white light here, which is composed of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. the blue you are referring to is COLOR SPECTRUM, or merely the temperature of white light that the bulb emits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Vancefish

Are you actually saying RED has no benefit to flowering???:wtf:

---

i never stated such a claim. yes, the HPS will help you put on more weight during flower, HOWEVER the UV that the MH will pack on the trichs better and produce more terpins which will give you better smell/taste.

so next time before you want to try to lecture me or anyone else you might want to make sure that you have your shit straight or are prepared to take notes following the onslaught that ensues after your post. (got your pen and pad handy? well go fucking grab it!!!)

i don't need you and all of your 43 posts to cosign shit that i say. i think my rep around here speaks for itself.


-shake


vance, the red spectrum of an HPS is the natural spectrum it puts out, which is similar to the sun in the fall. the MH naturally puts out a more blue color temperature, similar to the summer days. that's all. PERIOD.

why do you suppose they sell HPS bulbs that push out more blue as FW stated? hmmmm, i wonder?


twitch, you can run a HPS the whole way. people normally due this because they can only get an HPS or MH ballast, the HPS puts on more weight in flower, so they pick that one. many get a MH conversion bulb to run in their HPS ballast for veg. (this isn't applicable for a digital or switchable ballast).

i hope that answered your question.

yes for fucks sakes thats all i wanted thats the exact answer i was looking for
sh!t talk about pulling teeth

i am getting a MH soon i didnt go today to lazy and its not needed yet

thanks again shake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twitch

yes for fucks sakes thats all i wanted thats the exact answer i was looking for
sh!t talk about pulling teeth

i am getting a MH soon i didnt go today to lazy and its not needed yet

thanks again shake

---

no sweat man. that's all i try to do around here is help out. there is an occasional rant thrown in for good measure. lol.


-shake

That was funny. I got no where by the end of the thread. Red blue red blue, just grow some fukn plants. haha j/k.:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

ok, first off spectrum doesn't play hardly a part, if any, in flower size or potency for that matter. all spectrum is is the color temperature of the light that your bulb(s) put out.



genetics will be the biggest single factor. period. the type of light would be next, not spectrum. see your example below for more on this.



ummmm no shit!? of course you are not gonna put on as much weight with CFLs as opposed to an HPS. not to mention wft is pure blue light. we are talking white light here, which is composed of red, orange, yellow, green, blue, indigo and violet. the blue you are referring to is COLOR SPECTRUM, or merely the temperature of white light that the bulb emits.



i never stated such a claim. yes, the HPS will help you put on more weight during flower, HOWEVER the UV that the MH will pack on the trichs better and produce more terpins which will give you better smell/taste.

so next time before you want to try to lecture me or anyone else you might want to make sure that you have your shit straight or are prepared to take notes following the onslaught that ensues after your post. (got your pen and pad handy? well go fucking grab it!!!)

i don't need you and all of your 43 posts to cosign shit that i say. i think my rep around here speaks for itself.


-shake


vance, the red spectrum of an HPS is the natural spectrum it puts out, which is similar to the sun in the fall. the MH naturally puts out a more blue color temperature, similar to the summer days. that's all. PERIOD.

why do you suppose they sell HPS bulbs that push out more blue as FW stated? hmmmm, i wonder?


twitch, you can run a HPS the whole way. people normally due this because they can only get an HPS or MH ballast, the HPS puts on more weight in flower, so they pick that one. many get a MH conversion bulb to run in their HPS ballast for veg. (this isn't applicable for a digital or switchable ballast).

i hope that answered your question.

---

I never meant to start any fight. I just responded with what I'd learned from what I'd read.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

ok, first off spectrum doesn't play hardly a part, if any, in flower size or potency for that matter. all spectrum is is the color temperature of the light that your bulb(s) put out.

---

Pulled from grow guide site:

Metal Halide - MH
Metal halide bulbs produce an abundance of light in the blue spectrum. This color of light promotes plant growth and is excellent for green leafy growth and keeping plants compact. It is the best type of light to be used as a primary light source (if no or little natural sunlight is available). The average lifespan is about 10,000 cumulative hours. The bulb will light up beyond this time but due to the gradual decline of light, it is not worth your while to wait for the bulb to finally burn out. If you compare their lumen (brightness) per unit of energy consumed, metal halides produce up to 125 lumens per watt compared to 39 lumens per watt with fluorescent lights and 18 lumens per watt for standard incandescent bulbs.


High Pressure Sodium - HPS
High pressure sodium bulbs emit an orange-red glow. This band of light triggers hormones in plants to increase flowering/budding in plants. They are the best lights available for secondary or supplemental lighting (used in conjunction with natural sunlight). This is ideal for greenhouse growing applications.

Not only is this a great flowering light, it has two features that make it a more economical choice. Their average lifespan is twice that of metal halides, but after 18,000 hours of use, they will start to draw more electricity than their rated watts while gradually producing less light. HPS bulbs are very efficient. They produce up to 140 lumens per watt. Their disadvantage is they are deficient in the blue spectrum. If a gardener were to start a young plant under a HPS bulb, she/he would see impressive vertical growth. In fact, probably too impressive. Most plants would grow up thin and lanky and in no time you will have to prune your plant back before it grows into the light fixture. The exception to this is using a HPS light in a greenhouse. Sunlight is high in the blue spectrum which would offset any stretching caused by HPS bulbs.

Here is a chart found on this site showing the plants do not use Yellow or Green spectrums for photosythesis. However it does support High Blue to Veg (MH)!

Cannabis Forums Message Boards - Medical Marijuana, Cannabis Club, Dispensary, News

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

vance, the red spectrum of an HPS is the natural spectrum it puts out, which is similar to the sun in the fall. the MH naturally puts out a more blue color temperature, similar to the summer days. that's all. PERIOD.

why do you suppose they sell HPS bulbs that push out more blue as FW stated? hmmmm, i wonder?

so next time before you want to try to lecture me or anyone else you might want to make sure that you have your shit straight or are prepared to take notes following the onslaught that ensues after your post. (got your pen and pad handy? well go fucking grab it!!!)

i don't need you and all of your 43 posts to cosign shit that i say. i think my rep around here speaks for itself.

---

I did not ATTACK anyone around here. ALL I did was post that MH is SAID to be better to GROW plants and RED was better to FLOWER!!

Just because I have only 50 posts DOESN'T mean I'm an idiot who deserves this bull!

â?¢Plants, in fact, do grow faster under certain colors of light. The reason for this is that chloroplasts can only absorb certain wavelengths of light because of the pigments they contain. There are 2 photosystems in plants called photosystem I and II. PS I absorbs light on the wavelength of 700nm while PS II absorbs 680nm because of their utilization of chlorophyll A and B. These two frequencies are are known as the peak absorption points because they are the wavelength at which light is most strongly absorbed. Different forms of chlorophyll and other photosynthetic pigments absorb other other frequencies of light but PS I and PS II are what is used for synthesizing ATP and reducing power which plants use to grow. The visible spectrum of light is between 380-750nm for humans. Therefore PS I and II require red light to perform photosynthesis. As stated before, however, there are other photosynthetic pigments present in plants and other phototrophic species such as bacteria and algae that absorb other pigments. An example of this is the carotenoid pigment that absorbs primarily blue light as do chlorophyll A and B. Blue light contains more energy than red light but for PS I and II and plant growth both are needed. Studies in the 50's showed that the rate of photosynthesis increased under far-red and red light compared to other frequencies.

I posted MY NOTES. I got my info HERE! What do you have to "Back up" your claims that Color plays NO ROLE! I NEVER said anything about your reputation. I didn't attack you. YOU attacked me for saying red was NEEDED! All I've done since was try to back up what I said. In THIS post I have pulled info PROVING what I said to be true! (or at least proving this site mainly supports what I posted). If the poster of this thread decides NOT to pay attention to what THIS site says about spectrum then OK. If YOU decide to ignore it. :thumbsup:

I found posting what I'd read about plants photosynthetic spectral ranges quite disheartening. I post what THIS SITE(and every other site) says about spectrum and I am suddanly some asshole who's trying to undermine some other person! I did NO SUCH THING! I only posted what the scientists are saying about spectrum and plant growth. I did not say that UV makes it more potent! I said "some people are claiming" that UV plays a role. This I have been unable to find any proof of being true. Therfore I posted it and said "SOME PEOPLE CLAIM!"

Why do they sell HPS with a higher BLUE range??

BECAUSE Blue is better for vegitative growth and HPS are usually short on this range of the spectrum. HENCE why MH is better for GROWING your plants then HPS.

OUT!!!!
u have tainted my thread i am going to have to start a new one becuase there
is to much bull shit on here about lights and the colors. i have done 3 grows in
the past, i am no pro but by this point i get the whole spectrum thing. i wasnt
asking about colors u made it about colors, Shake answered my questions now
drop it i dont want to see u on my next grow log unless its to say nice nugs
other then that u can keep ur 2 cents in your pocket.... i am not saying ur
wrong your just annoying....

and its doesn't seem like ur getting it or i just didnt read ur whole post....
ITS WHEN YOU PUT THEM IN TO 12/12 LIGHT THAT TRIGGERS THE FLOWERING!!
thats why u can do a (seed to bud) and get product in under 3 months
^^^lets not start an augment about that either guys

anyways if u have been watching this grow i am going to start a new log in
grow logs with out all this talk of light colors in the next day or 2 probably
today with new pics

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twitch

i have seen people us hps lights for veg and flower what are the downs sides to
this anyone know?

---

This was the question posted.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twitch

i wasnt
asking about colors u made it about colors

---

The answer was the downside to using HPS for vegitative was the shortage of BLUE! That was why color WAS part of the question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twitch

OUT!!!!
u have tainted my thread i am going to have to start a new one. i dont want to see u on my next grow log unless its to say nice nugs
other then that u can keep ur 2 cents in your pocket.... i am not saying ur
wrong your just annoying....

---

Sorry Twitch, I just tried to help and explain WHY, not just throw out a generic answer. I got carried away after I was attacked and told my answer was bullshit and had no basis in fact. I did not mean to "mess up your thread and would never post a reply to a "grow log". This was posted to a regular thread, asking why HM was said to be better for Vegitative growth (BLUE). However NOT a grow log.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by twitch

and its doesn't seem like ur getting it or i just didnt read ur whole post....
ITS WHEN YOU PUT THEM IN TO 12/12 LIGHT THAT TRIGGERS THE FLOWERING!!
thats why u can do a (seed to bud) and get product in under 3 months
^^^lets not start an augment about that either guys

---

Sorry you didn't read it. It had some good stuff about how BLUE grows thicker more productive plants. Plus how RED is used to produce higher flowering hormones. I will be putting all of this information into my grows and only posted it to try and help(and prove I'm not just a windbag spewing bullshit). I never argued about 12/12. Just pointed out that RED does have a role. AND Blue was better to grow thicker healthier plants (as the question asked).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twitch

anyways if u have been watching this grow i am going to start a new log in
grow logs with out all this talk of light colors in the next day or 2 probably
today with new pics

---

Cool, I'm watch and never post if that is what you want. As I said, I only tried to help until I was attacked for posting informative facts based on science.

vancefish, i'm not gonna argue with you. anyone can copy and post shit. and anyone can post shit on the internet.....that doesn't make it the truth or the gospel!

so if you think specturm plays such a big role then why is the sun better than any light or color spectrum available? we are merely trying to mimick the sun with indoor lighting. it's the same sun in the sky during the summer and the winner.

i do apologize for going off the deep end. i never meant to attack you personally or anything else of the sort. i also don't need to copy and paste shit to get my point across.

i'm aware how plants absorb light and how photosynthesis works.

also, about the HPS would cause stretching. i agree that it might a little bit, but plant only stretch really bad when trying to reach for more light. if you keep the light right on top of them they don't stretch that bad.

finally, just because you read something and took notes and can recite it doesn't mean you know anything. it means you can parrot others. the post count doesn't matter nor the rep.


twitch, i'm sorry for tainting your thread. truly.


-shake

lol its all good i ma going to start on under grow logs when i feel like typing it all up

lookin real good hoping for the best

YES!!!! i am so glad you get on this still, now you dont have to drive out all
the time.

i am actually having a problem with some of them, ill post a pics, but i think
its nute burn. i dont know what i was thinking but i feed some of them with a
half dose nutes and i dont remember which ones but i think its the ones with
these yellowing edges.

also i am doing a spray with just water and a small lil bit of worm castings (liquid)
i was wondering could that possible be it? i have stop with both i only did like
half of them with nutes so i dont think it should be that big of a deal since i
am doing just water now

every buddy tune in and tell me what yall think here are the pics

oh and the plant to the left (in the first pic) i have no idea what that spot is
but its the only with with spots like it and all of my other plants look fine no
yellowing at all but this one is the worst so i took pics of it

anyone?

i like what you have done twitch. i will tune in your plants are doing way better than mine i wanna see what you are doing different.
-J"Baked

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by twitch

anyone?

---

they definitely look like they have nute burn. i would stop with the worm castings in the foliar spray.

what is your watering/feeding schedule like? are you letting the soil dry out really good before you water/feed them again? they look like they might be slightly over-watered.


-shake

The new growth from the bit I can see looks fine so things will fall back in line. I second the discontinue foliar feeding of worm castings.

with the FF soil, you shouldnt have to feed for the first 2-3wks.

i think you should take it easy on the nutes for a little while and just water with plain ol ph'd water. it doesn't look bad so they should recover quickly.

good luck man

honestly i dont know why i did it that soon oh well we will see in the next week
oh and i water when i can move the dirt half an inch down and not feel any
moister

updates:
i have re-potted and started the fox farm recommended feeding schedule with
super thrive to help with stress
they all had great roots i chalk that up to the root heating mats i got, i have
some pics below to show u the roots these are at 12 day old

lookin good twitch.

what are root mats?

Theyre heating mats that go under the pots or tray. They raise the soil temperature so that the fragile seedlings or clones have a easier time growing roots.


I use a heating mat when rooting my clones. The only thing you gotta watch out for is sometimes it dries the soil out reaaalllly fast.

yes exactly they are the shit

i put a heating mat under my seedlings and it killed them with nice moist soil..
what is the trick and do you mean a reptile mat? cause that is what i got and it seems to be too hot.
thanks
-J

i bought one for plants... if you use the other ones they get to hot this keeps
the roots at like 88 degrees and they blew up and since the roots are really
developed they are growing crazy

probably not a Casa De Pot item though...
i am in a limited supplies enviroment. where did you get yours?
thanks
-J

you can order it online at Texas Hydroponics &... i am sorry u dont have
one close to you they are the shit

Hot House Propagation Kit thats what its called i bought 2 of those