Single Payer health Care

In 2003 Obama was quoted as saying he wants single payer Health Care.

Ok if it is single payer, doesnt that mean it lacks competition?

Forget Democrat, and Republican left, right whatever.....


It was described by Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (1776) and later economists as allocating productive resources to their most highly-valued uses.[2] and encouraging efficiency. Later microeconomic theory distinguished between perfect competition and imperfect competition, concluding that with the no system of resource allocation is more efficient than perfect competition. Competition, according to the theory, causes commercial firms to develop new products, services and technologies, which would give consumers greater selection and better products. The greater selection typically causes lower prices for the products, compared to what the price would be if there was no competition (monopoly) or little competition (oligopoly).

Competition is best for US the consumer.

So if Competition will give us the best product (ie health care, cars, widgets) whatever...

Who is Single payer health care the best for? We know its not us!:(

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Originally Posted by Bong30

Who is Single payer health care the best for?

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isn't it obvious? it's good for those too ignorant to realize that health care is a commodity just like anything else. it's good for those who seek to control another segment of the free market and place it under the thumb of a faceless government bureaucracy. for everyone else it is just another link forged in our chain of slavery to the state.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bong30

So if Competition will give us the best product (ie health care, cars, widgets) whatever...

Who is Single payer health care the best for? We know its not us!

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I would think that a single payer system would be best for anyone in this country who does not feel like funding a completely corrupt and ethically challenged industry. The health care industry in America is fucking twisted and is obviously not working in the way Adam Smith would have liked it to have run. Decent, affordable health care in this country is a myth and because of this thousands of people die every year from easily preventable illnesses. Now I believe that keeping a significant portion of this country alive and healthy is an important matter of domestic security and as such the responsibility of the federal government. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept. As long as the insurance companies continue to make decisions based solely on their profit margins there will never be affordable health care in this country.

I think you need to decide whether your particular political ideology is more important than the well being of your fellow country men.

Can you also please explain why single payer systems are so terrible when they work so well for every other country who uses them?

a single payer system sounds like magic, and it might be if you just goto the hospital once every ten years

but take into mind all of the poor and homeless people we have, that would all of a sudden be YOUR financial responsibility!

to people who have cancer or serious illnesses that require top of the line care, they would need to be passed over to take in the hundreds and thousands of new, free patients

ALSO, think about it from a doctors point of view. doctors work their asses off in school to make themselves a successful life, hoping to all earn over $100,000 a year, now imagine barack obama showing up and saying you HAVE to treat EVERYONE for FREE... where is the motivation to ever become a doctor???

the bottom line is america is about freedom and this healthcare reform bill is about confiscating freedom.

our government cant even figure out how to hand out water bottles after a hurricane (katrina) and you think they should run healthcare? NO WAY!!!

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

I would think that a single payer system would be best for anyone in this country who does not feel like funding a completely corrupt and ethically challenged industry. The health care industry in America is fucking twisted and is obviously not working in the way Adam Smith would have liked it to have run. Decent, affordable health care in this country is a myth and because of this thousands of people die every year from easily preventable illnesses. Now I believe that keeping a significant portion of this country alive and healthy is an important matter of domestic security and as such the responsibility of the federal government. I do not see what is so hard to understand about this concept. As long as the insurance companies continue to make decisions based solely on their profit margins there will never be affordable health care in this country.

I think you need to decide whether your particular political ideology is more important than the well being of your fellow country men.

Can you also please explain why single payer systems are so terrible when they work so well for every other country who uses them?

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are there any of our Canadian brothers and sisters out there with some personal
stories about how great the Canadian healthcare system is?

...how about from the UK, would some of you fellow stoners mind sharing
some of your experiences?

and Ramulux, you should have someone explain the free enterprise system
to you. ...Competition incentivizes innovation while a lack of competition leads
to stagnation. Imagine a world where Cheerios was the only cereal there
was.

why do you think the british are known for having terrible teeth?

because if we had national health care here, a dentist appointment would need to be booked years in advance and most of us wouldnt even bother going just like the british...

you think it sucks to wait at the doctors office when you have an appointment now? imagine your entire city waiting for the same thing

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Originally Posted by MPLSweedman

to people who have cancer or serious illnesses that require top of the line care, they would need to be passed over to take in the hundreds and thousands of new, free patients

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No they wouldn't. There is nothing in the public health care option which would force terminally ill patients to be passed over. I don't know where you heard this but its not true.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPLSweedman

ALSO, think about it from a doctors point of view. doctors work their asses off in school to make themselves a successful life, hoping to all earn over $100,000 a year, now imagine barack obama showing up and saying you HAVE to treat EVERYONE for FREE... where is the motivation to ever become a doctor???

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Dude you do not understand anything about single payer systems. Doctors are not going to have to start working for free, they are simply going to be paid by the government.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPLSweedman

the bottom line is america is about freedom and this healthcare reform bill is about confiscating freedom.

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How? The health care reform bill is about providing medical care to those who cannot afford it. How in any way does this have anything to do with confiscating freedom?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

and Ramulux, you should have someone explain the free enterprise system
to you. ...Competition incentivizes innovation while a lack of competition leads
to stagnation. Imagine a world where Cheerios was the only cereal there
was.

---

Health Care for America NOW - New Report: Private Insurance Mergers Lead to Near-Monopolies Across the Country
News Flash, there isn't any real competition among Americas health insurance companies as it exists right now. They have had 80 years to develop an affordable, decent plan that could be used by those in poverty but they haven't. These companies have abused the power they have over the American people because they know we do not have a choice. A public option will create the first real spark of competition within the health care industry. When these private companies begin losing customers and realize that they can no longer get away with charging outlandish fees they will be forced onto a level playing field for the first time since their creation.

I also never meant to imply that I have something against competition. I am well aware that competition is one of the driving forces of mankind and our continued advancement as a society. But health care is not something that you can just leave up to the free market to figure out. It has been that way for a long time and it has not worked. The ability to go to the doctor is not the same as buying a box of cereal. They effect our lives in totally different ways and I think it is obvious that one is more important than the other. So while competition seems to work fairly well for the cereal industry, the health care industry has shown over and over again that they have figured out a way around the concepts put forth by Adam Smith.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

are there any of our Canadian brothers and sisters out there with some personal
stories about how great the Canadian healthcare system is?

...how about from the UK, would some of you fellow stoners mind sharing
some of your experiences?

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When I say that the single payer systems in countries like Canada, the Netherlands, and Taiwan work very well, I am not speaking subjectively. I am not trying to get you to believe something that may not be true. These countries health care systems work well and that is just the way it is. Now if you want first hand accounts and studies, here you go.
What is healthcare like in the Netherlands? : denialism blog
Does Universal Health Insurance Make Health Care Unaffordable? Lessons From Taiwan -- Lu and Hsiao 22 (3): 77 -- Health Affairs
Single-Payer FAQ | Physicians for a National Health Program
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: London, Ontario, Canada
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: St. John, New Brunswick, Canada
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: London, UK
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: Randers, Denmark
Tome of the Unknown Writer: Health Care Stories: Madrid, Spain

If you want more I am happy to provide them for you. I also want to make it clear that I am aware the health care systems in these countries are not perfect and that they do not provide the most exceptional care money can buy. They provide a basic public option to anyone who needs it and it ends up costing them less than we spend in this country.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MPLSweedman

why do you think the british are known for having terrible teeth?

because if we had national health care here, a dentist appointment would need to be booked years in advance and most of us wouldnt even bother going just like the british...

you think it sucks to wait at the doctors office when you have an appointment now? imagine your entire city waiting for the same thing

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You are absolutely right that there is a lack of dentists in England who take NHS patients. However this is a fairly new problem arising from a series of dental reforms passed in 2006 which simplified the previously complex pay structure for dentists and removed incentives for carrying out complicated surgical procedures. What this means is that the dentists in England are not being proportionately compensated by the NHS for the risks inherent in oral surgery. This in turn means that most of the dentists in England only perform complicated procedures privately, forcing those in need who cannot afford the treatment to simply go without.

However your rhetoric about having to book years in advance is just flat out not true. If you are simply looking for minimal care and service it is perfectly possible to see a dentist on fairly short notice.

Now obviously this is a problem and as I said in my previous post no health care system is perfect. Yet, Britain runs the rest of their health care system very efficiently. So that means that the British people are provided with decent health care in every area but dental services and even then it is not as if treatment is nonexistent it is simply sub par.

if the government gets involved it will be the biggest dog in the fight, which
will drive private insurance company's out of business which will inevitably
lead to a single payer system, something that goes against everything this
country stands for and everything that makes us great.

hell, even the liberal media is starting to see through his lies! ...so wake up dude!

try and clear your head of the kool-aid fog and ask yourself, do you want
morons like Barney Frank and Nancy Pelosi making your healthcare decisions?


YouTube - RONALD REAGAN Exposes OBAMA'S Socialist HealthCare Scheme @ AARP TownHall Meeting!!

YouTube - Liberals are dishonest in health care reform debate...

YouTube - A Short Course in Brain Surgery

YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada!

YouTube - Townhall Protest - George Fights with Obama Supporters

YouTube - Ron Paul slams Obama's plan for socialized healthcare reform on CNN (6/15/09)

the bottom line is that if it were such a great system it would have passed already, they don't need republicans for this bill to pass. the democrats are the ones that are holding it up.

i don't even want to get started on obama and his lies. go back and watch "the distinguished gentleman" with eddie murphy. that's where barack's (or barry's) whole change campaign came from.

the government can't run the post office right. how is it that the post office is held by the government, and has every law you can think of helping them out (including a monopoly on delivering "letters) and they constantly loose money, yet fedex and ups are making profits doing the same thing? and people want the government incharge of our healthcare?

check this article out. for all of you economists out there, check out mises.org. it's where the austrian school of economics started. very good stuff.


-shake

If you believe the GOP lies about how health care will be worse, I'll sell you the Golden Gate Bridge....cheap.

Health care is the next looming bubble that will let the rich redistribute money from poor and middle class to their pockets.

The past eight years have been nothing but lies, torture, illegal spying, wars based on ego, and rich getting richer and bailed out after they lost our money. Wake up, these are the same people who profit from our loss, you can't believe their lies.

i found it interesting that 1% of the country has 50% of the wealth. time for a revolution!


-shake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eastbaygordo

If you believe the GOP lies about how health care will be worse, I'll sell you the Golden Gate Bridge....cheap.

Health care is the next looming bubble that will let the rich redistribute money from poor and middle class to their pockets.

The past eight years have been nothing but lies, torture, illegal spying, wars based on ego, and rich getting richer and bailed out after they lost our money. Wake up, these are the same people who profit from our loss, you can't believe their lies.

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that's why we can't trust them to run health care, lol, they're all nothing
more than prostitutes in suits, Obama included!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

if the government gets involved it will be the biggest dog in the fight, which
will drive private insurance company's out of business which will inevitably
lead to a single payer system, something that goes against everything this
country stands for and everything that makes us great.

---

First of all, you obviously did not read any of the information which you asked for and I provided for you. If government involvement in the health care system leads to private insurance companies going out of business, then how come the Netherlands have such a thriving private insurance industry? I do not know how to have a debate about this subject if you are not going to actually look at the facts that I provide and offer some sort of rational counter argument.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

YouTube - RONALD REAGAN Exposes OBAMA'S Socialist HealthCare Scheme @ AARP TownHall Meeting!!

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You are really going to have to come up with something better than this. This is just a video of soundbites from "Ronald Reagan speaks out against socialized medicine" imposed over an Obama town hall meeting. Now I have already listened to the entire album before and everything he says is just reused republican talking points that have been debunked for decades. Ronald Reagan is one of the most twisted, horrible motherfuckers to ever walk this planet and the economic reforms he put in place are still fucking this country over. Now I have already addressed most of his points in my previous post but if there is anything in particular you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

YouTube - Liberals are dishonest in health care reform debate...

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The first thing I want to make clear is that the current legislation proposed by Obama is not perfect. I myself have some problems with it and am not opposed to taking a little more time and working out the details. If we are going to have real health care reform in this country it is going to need to be done right or not at all. So as it stands right now, I agree with many of the progressive congressman opposing the current plan because it is not substantial enough. I will also not even attempt to defend some of these "blue dogs" who are impeding the process not out of any rational disagreement with the plan, but simply because their election campaigns were funded with millions of dollars in insurance money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

YouTube - A Short Course in Brain Surgery

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What is important to remember is that the current health care reforms are not going to turn us into Canada. Obama is not going to outlaw private medical practices. We are not all going to have to be on a government health care plan. If you want to pay to see a doctor sooner that is perfectly possible. Now on my previous post I posted a similar story about a Canadian in need of an MRI who received it within a perfectly reasonable amount of time. I also made it clear in my previous posts that these systems are not perfect. No government is going to be able to provide world class health care whenever anyone needs it, for free. When you are giving an entire country free health care there are obviously going to be waiting periods. There are only so many doctors. However, I will admit that I do feel sympathy for this man and his situation. I also wont deny that this is an example of how the Canadian health care system is not perfect. But this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Canadian citizens are capable of visiting a doctor without ridiculous waiting lists for free.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

YouTube - ObamaCare Yay Or Nay? The Truth About Canada!

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I don't even know what you want me to say about this because there are so many elements about this video that are total bullshit. But I guess I will try.
1. Nothing that happens in this video doesn't happen in America.
2. I am sure people who cannot afford medical care do not have a problem waiting a few hours considering if they didn't have government care they would "never" see a doctor.
3. These guys bitch about not being being able to get a blood test for no reason.
4. They go to a gigantic hospital on a "Sunday" and are surprised when they have to wait in line for a few hours.
5. The hundreds and hundreds of Canadians commenting about how they have never experienced anything like what happens to this guy.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

YouTube - Townhall Protest - George Fights with Obama Supporters

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This dudes a fucking moron. If there is any particular point you want me to address, let me know because this guy has no idea what hes talking about.

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

YouTube - Ron Paul slams Obama's plan for socialized healthcare reform on CNN (6/15/09)

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I have a great deal of respect for Ron Paul and I agree with many of his policies and ideas but I obviously disagree with him in regard to what form of government best suits this country. You picked a really bad segment with him because all the points he makes I have already addressed in one way or another. I am really disappointed to see Ron Paul spouting out talking points like this and kind of wish I had never seen this clip.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

the bottom line is that if it were such a great system it would have passed already, they don't need republicans for this bill to pass. the democrats are the ones that are holding it up.

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The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.

apparently your mind is made up so there is no need confusing you
with the facts.

you go drink your kool-aid and we'll stop socialized health care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

First of all, you obviously did not read any of the information which you asked for and I provided for you. If government involvement in the health care system leads to private insurance companies going out of business, then how come the Netherlands have such a thriving private insurance industry? I do not know how to have a debate about this subject if you are not going to actually look at the facts that I provide and offer some sort of rational counter argument.



You are really going to have to come up with something better than this. This is just a video of soundbites from "Ronald Reagan speaks out against socialized medicine" imposed over an Obama town hall meeting. Now I have already listened to the entire album before and everything he says is just reused republican talking points that have been debunked for decades. Ronald Reagan is one of the most twisted, horrible motherfuckers to ever walk this planet and the economic reforms he put in place are still fucking this country over. Now I have already addressed most of his points in my previous post but if there is anything in particular you would like to discuss I would be more than happy to.



The first thing I want to make clear is that the current legislation proposed by Obama is not perfect. I myself have some problems with it and am not opposed to taking a little more time and working out the details. If we are going to have real health care reform in this country it is going to need to be done right or not at all. So as it stands right now, I agree with many of the progressive congressman opposing the current plan because it is not substantial enough. I will also not even attempt to defend some of these "blue dogs" who are impeding the process not out of any rational disagreement with the plan, but simply because their election campaigns were funded with millions of dollars in insurance money.



What is important to remember is that the current health care reforms are not going to turn us into Canada. Obama is not going to outlaw private medical practices. We are not all going to have to be on a government health care plan. If you want to pay to see a doctor sooner that is perfectly possible. Now on my previous post I posted a similar story about a Canadian in need of an MRI who received it within a perfectly reasonable amount of time. I also made it clear in my previous posts that these systems are not perfect. No government is going to be able to provide world class health care whenever anyone needs it, for free. When you are giving an entire country free health care there are obviously going to be waiting periods. There are only so many doctors. However, I will admit that I do feel sympathy for this man and his situation. I also wont deny that this is an example of how the Canadian health care system is not perfect. But this does not change the fact that the vast majority of Canadian citizens are capable of visiting a doctor without ridiculous waiting lists for free.



I don't even know what you want me to say about this because there are so many elements about this video that are total bullshit. But I guess I will try.
1. Nothing that happens in this video doesn't happen in America.
2. I am sure people who cannot afford medical care do not have a problem waiting a few hours considering if they didn't have government care they would "never" see a doctor.
3. These guys bitch about not being being able to get a blood test for no reason.
4. They go to a gigantic hospital on a "Sunday" and are surprised when they have to wait in line for a few hours.
5. The hundreds and hundreds of Canadians commenting about how they have never experienced anything like what happens to this guy.



This dudes a fucking moron. If there is any particular point you want me to address, let me know because this guy has no idea what hes talking about.



I have a great deal of respect for Ron Paul and I agree with many of his policies and ideas but I obviously disagree with him in regard to what form of government best suits this country. You picked a really bad segment with him because all the points he makes I have already addressed in one way or another. I am really disappointed to see Ron Paul spouting out talking points like this and kind of wish I had never seen this clip.



The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

apparently your mind is made up so there is no need confusing you
with the facts.

you go drink your kool-aid and we'll stop socialized health care.

---

I'm just trying to have some sort of debate about socialized medicine and I have offered up responses to your statements and examples. Show me the facts you speak of and I can actually give some sort of response to them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ramulux

The democrats holding up the process aren't real democrats. They are pro-business moderates whose campaigns were funded by insurance companies. Regardless of how "good" the reforms are they are not going to vote for it because if they do, they don't get reelected. As for the progressives who are against the bill I have already said that I agree with many of their complaints and have no problem with them taking the time to produce a truly comprehensive reform deal.

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what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?

can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?

we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?

we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.

and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.

since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?

who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?

they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.

we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?

well, the govt now owns 80% of AIG after giving them $85 billion (i think). the govt took over AIG with emergency powers from the GREAT DEPRESSION, over 70 years ago.

the govt owns 60% of GM.

they own numerous percentages of many banks after the "bailout" bill passed. i'm sure there is many more. they can give money to whomever they want, for whatever they want in return and don't have to tell you about any of it. the govt gave out over $800 billion in small bailouts before the "bailout" bill passed. who got that money?

the govt lied about what they were going to do with the bailout money. the original plan called for the buying of toxic assests from financial institutions "right now". once the bill passed, and the authority had been granted, the Treasurey postponed and then scrapped that plan.

the govt took over freddie mac and fannie mae, without congressional approval might i add.

sorry for the rambling there, my point is that the govt cannot be trusted. this is obvious. i think people are using the health care bill as a platform to fight against. (not those dems trying to get re-elected (including obama).) i think people are tired of being lied to and taken advantage of.

what's taken us so long to get around to healthcare anyway? how long have we been the only industrialized country to not have it? all of a sudden it's a priority.


-shake

you're wasting your time shake, this guy has already made up his mind!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?

can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?

we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?

we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.

and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.

since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?

who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?

they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.

we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?

well, the govt now owns 80% of AIG after giving them $85 billion (i think). the govt took over AIG with emergency powers from the GREAT DEPRESSION, over 70 years ago.

the govt owns 60% of GM.

they own numerous percentages of many banks after the "bailout" bill passed. i'm sure there is many more. they can give money to whomever they want, for whatever they want in return and don't have to tell you about any of it. the govt gave out over $800 billion in small bailouts before the "bailout" bill passed. who got that money?

the govt lied about what they were going to do with the bailout money. the original plan called for the buying of toxic assests from financial institutions "right now". once the bill passed, and the authority had been granted, the Treasurey postponed and then scrapped that plan.

the govt took over freddie mac and fannie mae, without congressional approval might i add.

sorry for the rambling there, my point is that the govt cannot be trusted. this is obvious. i think people are using the health care bill as a platform to fight against. (not those dems trying to get re-elected (including obama).) i think people are tired of being lied to and taken advantage of.

what's taken us so long to get around to healthcare anyway? how long have we been the only industrialized country to not have it? all of a sudden it's a priority.


-shake

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

what? every democrat got campaign funds from somebody with an agenda. so we just get to pick and choose who is a "real" democrat? well if that's the case, from everything i've heard, barack has had nothing to do with the bill besides saying that he will support it. he's not been responsible for anything in the bill. how many pages is it? like 2000 or so?

can you please explain to me what a real democrat is? are they they ones who vote for bailing out large corporations with our tax dollars?

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It is not about getting to pick and choose,its about acknowledging which democrats stick to their beliefs and which ones do not. In the same way, you probably don't support everyone in the republican party I do not support everyone in the democratic party.

Now listen I am not going to get into a discussion about the bailouts because we probably agree that they were a huge mistake. That money was pretty much stolen from us and handed over to the federal reserve, I am well aware of that. Being pissed off about the bailouts has nothing to do with the left or right. Providing insane amounts of money to the companies which caused all the economic problems is a bad idea regardless of where you are on the political spectrum. Any congressman or senator who voted for those bailouts are traitors to their respective political parties.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

we need less government not more. currently the us is ranked 37th by the WHO on it's list of health care systems. right between costa rica and slovenia. what do you think this legislation will do to those statistics?

we are 24th in life expectancy. i believe that we are already second on the list of total health expenditure as a percent of the GDP, around 15%.

and supposedly we have the best healthcare system in the world. i hate to see what happens when the govt get's involved.

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Dude, those are all examples of how our health care system as it exists right now is fucked. Those are statistics describing our "current" health care system, not what would happen if we went to a single payer system. If the government provided a public option it would revolutionize the health care industry. It would create real competition and force the insurance companies to adapt to reality. If we do not create a public option there will always be a significant percentage of our population without access to basic medical care.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

since they are taking away the incentive to be a doctor (capping pay) do you think this might have a negative impact on medicine here? perhaps they will go to other countries to practice medicine?

---

Private insurance companies do the exact same thing. If a doctor submits a claim for insurance reimbursement they are paid according to the pay rates set forth by the insurance company. That is all the government is doing. These rates put forth by the government are also generally in line with the standard market cost for health care services.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

who's gonna pay for this? $900 billion over 10 years? supposedly there is 2/3 already accounted for by drug companies and the like. we are already in the whole. let's see the budget was, what, $4 trillion and we brought in $2.5 trillion. and barack said that it would be this way for at least the next four years. so how does this work out?

---

Like you said, 2/3 is already paid for and the other third is gonna be spread out over ten years. So that is $300 billion for the most comprehensive social reform in our history. A reform that is going to provide every child born in this country with the ability to go to the doctor regardless of their parents income bracket. That is a beautiful fucking thing and you are bitching about $300 billion. We just had over a trillion dollars literally stolen from us in these bailouts. That is a trillion dollars that none of us are ever going to get back. But now we have a chance to spend $300 billion on something that is going to benefit millions and millions of people in profound ways, and you have a problem with that. The tax increases that have been proposed so far do not effect anyone making less than $350,00 a year and are pretty minor.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by headshake

they plan on taxing small business, right? i heard the tax rate in new york was going to be 57%. (sorry, just the only figure i've heard.) so how is this good for america? isn't small business the backbone of america? we won't save them, but we save big business? why? because they are too big to fail? c'mon now. that's how capitalism works right? if you have no money you go bankrupt.

we aren't supposed to look at this as "socialized" medicine. yet they are going to fine you and throw your in jail if you don't get coverage?

---

This proposal you are talking about has nothing to do with small businesses. This would impose a surtax of 1% on couples making $350,00 to $500,000, 1.5% between $500,000 and $1 million, and 5% for couples making over $1 million. This is also just a proposal and it was introduced a while ago so I do not think it ended up turning into anything.

I had also heard about how Massachusetts had begun fining residents for not purchasing health care, but that is under the current private system. However, I had not heard that you would be fined if you did not accept coverage with the public option. I do not really see how that would work but if you could provide some sources I would appreciate it because I cannot find any information about this.

have you read the bill? it's over 2000 pages long. and i heard about the new york tax for example the day that the president gave his speech about the healthcare reforms.

by the way, i'm not democrat or republican. i'm a best person for the job man.

if they fucked up the economy why do you think they can fix health care? look at the post office for example. the post office is nothing but a money drain. they are trying to take another day of the week off. and even with every law they want/need on their side the post office can't compete with ups or fedex (which are both profitable by the way).

do we need health care reforms, of course, but that's not the way to do it. i bet you also believe that the govt will sell their stock in the companies it bailed out too?

if you think shit's not about to hit the fan and you want to live in a world full of dillusions fine.

you probably don't believe that the barack administration wants to station 400,000 troops on the streets of the us. you can check it out here.


-shake

to get back to the original question, I just wanted to point out that in single payer systems they introduce competition in different ways. Instead of how much a dr can make by endorsing a certain drug, he gets paid more from the gvt by lowering your blood pressure, getting you to quit smoking, having reg check ups..

So there is competition in single payer systems between dr's and medical companies, but the flow of wealth is not one designed to increase a share holder's wealth, but instead to the dr that does the best job. ;)

liberals listen to me

if its passed, private health insurance will NO LONGER exist, there will be no choice but the government insurance (Freedom lost)

if obama really wants to be cost-effective with healthcare, why doesnt he ask the 13,000,000 illegal aliens to get the F*CK out because we are in over our heads

socialism is NOT the answer

you honestly believe doctors will be refunded 100% of what they are truly owed???!

did you know that of all the cash for clunkers cars, the government only paid out 2% of those $4500 checks to dealerships? the other 98% is eaten by the dealers, thanks government

the government is NOT THE ANSWER TO OUR PROBLEMS. IT IS OUR PROBLEM

WE RUN THIS COUNTRY, DONT GIVE OUR POWERS AWAY

OMG this arguement is so funny. I like Justanotherboos videos. Like that one about the MRI when the couple ciomplains about having to mortgage the house so they can afford to go to america to get a MRI, when 45% of all bankruptcies in America are due to medical bills! HAH! They even got to keep their house! Jerks.

I know Im firmly on Romulux's side here but honestly, dont post any more information you naysayer's that proves our point right. Hilarious.


Headshake,the post office runs a publiv service. Thats all it is, kinda like health care. Also I like the post office, I sell books online and they always have the cheapest rates (yay media mail!), to help out my small business. ;)

Oh and the statistics on our WHO rating is funny to, since most of the countries in front of us have socialized health care, and most of the countries behind us have private insurance - or relief aid.

Oh, and Headshake, the article you just posted is actually a continuation from a Bush law which designates that exact amount of troops for a terrorist attack, or WMD, OR threatening the use of one. So, the pentagon is extending it for other disaster's - hurricanes, floods, fires. I'm not sure why this is a point in your argument, but you better start it with Bush since he made up the law first.

Haha ok, im done. Thanks for making me laugh. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carinia

Headshake,the post office runs a publiv service. Thats all it is, kinda like health care. Also I like the post office, I sell books online and they always have the cheapest rates (yay media mail!), to help out my small business. ;)

---

and isn't health care for everyone a public service? ok, so the post office gives you the cheapest bill. but because they LOSE money, someone has to make that up. where do you suppose that money comes from? the TAXPAYERS! (if you pay taxes that's you too.) I'm not asking for the post office to turn a profit, but how about they just break even?

this is the same govt that you are asking to run health care. so how is this supposed to work? the fact that ups and fedex both are profitable and private, while the post office is a money suck controlled by the govt.

what do you think is going to happen to insurance? competition? yeah right!

i'm not saying the way it is now is working. i'm simply saying what they propose is not the answer.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carinia

Oh and the statistics on our WHO rating is funny to, since most of the countries in front of us have socialized health care, and most of the countries behind us have private insurance - or relief aid.

---

and from what i've been reading/hearing a lot of those countries aren't doing so hot. brittan, spain, norway or sweeden (i can't remember).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carinia

Oh, and Headshake, the article you just posted is actually a continuation from a Bush law which designates that exact amount of troops for a terrorist attack, or WMD, OR threatening the use of one. So, the pentagon is extending it for other disaster's - hurricanes, floods, fires. I'm not sure why this is a point in your argument, but you better start it with Bush since he made up the law first.

Haha ok, im done. Thanks for making me laugh. :)

---

you're right, it is from bush. i never said otherwise. but it's currently the barack administration that is continuing along these lines. they could change course if they wanted to. the point is that the government interference with anything is bad. the less govt the better.

they are using these platforms to TAKE MINE AND YOUR RIGHTS away. if you think otherwise you are sadly mistaken.

and the funny thing is you would think it would the the right wing republicans that would be trying to make these changes, but in truth it's the democrats.

you can think whatever you want. i know i'll be ready when the revolution comes. will you?


-shake

Oh yeah I got the batcave ready! Funny, I think the apocalypse (or revolution, however it fits) is coming too, but I dont think it will be socialized medicine that does it. ;)

Y'all can say waht you want... I am *STILL* waiting for the *FREE* medical and dental that was promised the US military vets, and retirees when we enlisted in the first place.

As far as that goes, NO military retiree should ever have to pay federal income tax again, ever!!

Thats the least they can do for those of us who sacrificed 20+ years of our lives in the service of our country, instead of providing all those benifits to all of the ILLEGAL ALIENS in the US.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carinia

Oh yeah I got the batcave ready! Funny, I think the apocalypse (or revolution, however it fits) is coming too, but I dont think it will be socialized medicine that does it. ;)

---

once again, it's not socialized medicine that will be the turning point. it's merely a step in the wrong direction. it's the govt interfering with our lives. we need less govt, not more. how much money do they waste? for what? protecting our freedoms? you and i both know that's not the case.

i do think there needs to be health care reform. i actually think we need to start over back at the constitution......but how likely is that to happen....until we make it!

i hear ya loud and clear steve!


-shake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eastbaygordo

If you believe the GOP lies about how health care will be worse, I'll sell you the Golden Gate Bridge....cheap.

Health care is the next looming bubble that will let the rich redistribute money from poor and middle class to their pockets.:S4:

The past eight years have been nothing but lies, torture, illegal spying, wars based on ego, and rich getting richer and bailed out after they lost our money. Wake up, these are the same people who profit from our loss, you can't believe their lies.

---

:postexcuseme:
After you were dumb enough to buy the bridge, now you want somebody dumber than you. NOT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ramulux

Private insurance companies do the exact same thing. If a doctor submits a claim for insurance reimbursement they are paid according to the pay rates set forth by the insurance company. That is all the government is doing. These rates put forth by the government are also generally in line with the standard market cost for health care services.



Like you said, 2/3 is already paid for and the other third is gonna be spread out over ten years. So that is $300 billion for the most comprehensive social reform in our history. A reform that is going to provide every child born in this country with the ability to go to the doctor regardless of their parents income bracket. That is a beautiful fucking thing and you are bitching about $300 billion. We just had over a trillion dollars literally stolen from us in these bailouts. That is a trillion dollars that none of us are ever going to get back. But now we have a chance to spend $300 billion on something that is going to benefit millions and millions of people in profound ways, and you have a problem with that. The tax increases that have been proposed so far do not effect anyone making less than $350,00 a year and are pretty minor.



This proposal you are talking about has nothing to do with small businesses. This would impose a surtax of 1% on couples making $350,00 to $500,000, 1.5% between $500,000 and $1 million, and 5% for couples making over $1 million. This is also just a proposal and it was introduced a while ago so I do not think it ended up turning into anything.

I had also heard about how Massachusetts had begun fining residents for not purchasing health care, but that is under the current private system. However, I had not heard that you would be fined if you did not accept coverage with the public option. I do not really see how that would work but if you could provide some sources I would appreciate it because I cannot find any information about this.

---

If you have not heard of that then you did not read the bill that the house committee passed. You MUST buy into the public option if you do not have insurance. It is not free.
Maybe if the feds allowed the "evil" insurance companies to sell insurance across state lines like every other product or service there would be some competition. Tort reform would do far more to reduce costs than any other reform the people that brought us this problem could come up with.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by headshake

once again, it's not socialized medicine that will be the turning point. it's merely a step in the wrong direction. it's the govt interfering with our lives. we need less govt, not more. how much money do they waste? for what? protecting our freedoms? you and i both know that's not the case.
i do think there needs to be health care reform. i actually think we need to start over back at the constitution......but how likely is that to happen....until we make it!

i hear ya loud and clear steve!


-shake

---

I agree.

We need insurance reform but big government is not the answer. The government can't even fix the roads, why should we let them take control of our health care?

Though Iâ??d agree that government has shown itself incapable of successfully running anything larger than a lemonade stand without totally screwing the pooch, that is hardly the most important reason to avoid the single payer fiasco. Many of the particulars of the proposed plan may be nothing more than barely disguised eugenics experiments, but that is of no more importance than government's history of incompetence. these details are merely the trees obscuring our view of the forest and, though they may make great fodder for discussion, we shouldn't get too involved with such minutiae. The greatest reason for keeping the state's greedy mitts off of health care is that it is not government's place to engage in the daily care and feeding of its citizens. Government is not the father figure so many of us seem to desire. It is not the doting mother that is there to see to our every need. It is more the slightly aloof uncle, there to keep us from decimating each other and to see that the family picnics don't get too far out of hand.

The founders of this country were well aware of the dangers of an all-powerful government and went to great pains to insure the rights of the individual against the aggressions of the state. The bill of rights is less a list of the rights of the citizens than a list of limitations on the ways in which government may intrude on our natural rights. The tenth amendment is little quoted, but I feel you should all take a good look at it - The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people. The powers of government that strive for total control have spent a great deal of time and energy perverting the meaning of such words, by amending the document to suit their totalitarian aims or through various other means, but of utmost importance are those last four words - "or to the people". The individual is the final arbiter of his own fate. Each man and woman is responsible for their own decisions and well-being, each citizenâ??s natural rights limited only by the most basic needs of living within a society.

Itâ??s all so simple and so elegant. An entire society built on the premise of the supremacy of the rights of the individual, with government as nothing more than a loose web that ties the entire thing together and protects its integrity. For over two centuries we have complicated our existence and, with each complication, have bound ourselves more firmly to a bureaucracy intent on turning those gossamer strings to chains. The individual has been replaced by special interest groups, government has experienced unbridled growth in both size and power, and our own greed threatens to enslave us to a nanny-state from which there is no release. The ballot box has become a lie as our servants in government blithely push forward their own agendas, regardless of the wishes of their constituents, and the population has become complacent in the myth of our superiority. We have become blind to the basic premise that each man, as an individual, holds sole responsibility for his fate.

Now we are faced with the prospect of another leap in the size and power of the ever growing bureaucracy, governmentâ??s annexation of another segment of the free market which is the domain of the individual. Instead of sensible and equitably enforced regulation, many would have us jump head first into a government monopoly of this sizeable chunk of our economy. Instead of allowing a market determined by the people to adjust a haywire industry, our well stoked fears of evil corporations and big business are guiding us into another trap to limit our options and further embolden the totalitarian tendencies of the governmental monster. After all, what industry can compete with an entity that has no need to show a profit and finds a nearly unlimited source of capital in the pockets of its taxpayers? Whether we want to admit it or not, those corporate entities we take such pleasure in denigrating are made up of the individuals our government is pledged to protect and those businesses are the outcome of the effort and risk of individuals attempting to fill a need within our society. To sweep all that away and replace it with a government monopoly runs contrary to the concepts of liberty this country was founded to defend.

Of course there have been abuses within such a complex and far reaching industry. The concept of greed is far from foreign to humanity, but it is a part of governmentâ??s duty to see that the greed of one does not infringe on the rights of another. Instead of guarding the society from that greed, we find that our representatives have been complicit at most every step and now that the mess they have helped create has become critical, they are conveniently there with plans that can only further reduce our freedom of choice and indebt us to the not so tender care of the nanny-state. We should not be so blind as to excuse the part these political animals have played by handing them even more control over our daily lives.

Ok I get the idea that if the Gov starts an insurance company up that it will likely be just as inefficient as the post office and operate at a loss the same way. That's a good point.
I just read thousands of words arguing against the single payer plan, but if that option is no good then what would be the alternative? I don't think it can be reasonably argued that our current system is acceptable. The only statement that provided an idea for a different approach was that we should allow insurance to be sold across state lines to foster competition, (can't remember who said it) aside from that you guys are using alot of words to very passionately and eloquently say "NO" over and over again.
I'm not very knowlegable about the healthcare system and how insurance companies work, but right now the only competition between these companies seems to be who can more effectively deny coverage to the sick. :(
How about some alternative ideas to the single payer system if its such a bad idea.

single payer healthcare is awesome if your a part of one of two groups


1. your a jobless, homeless, drug addicted, lazy, or just god damn worthless person on welfare who wants other people to pay for you to go to the doctor.

you know whos gunna pay for this single payer healthcare? the responsible people with jobs who don't fucking need it.

2. YOUR A GOD DAMN SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST WHO LIKES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT TELL YOU WHERE TO GO, WHEN TO GO, AND HOW TO FUCKING DO IT.

I can't understand the attitude some of you have expressed here about how the government is going to force everyone to use their insurance.
I've seen the example of the post office as being the reason a Gov run insurance company is a bad idea. But even with the post office around we still have Fed-Ex and UPS, and untill recently DHL, yet most of you guys seem to think that a Gov insurance will be the only option if it's implemented.
What's more the attitude seems to be that we will all be FORCED to use the Gov insurance.

From drudown11:
"2. YOUR A GOD DAMN SOCIALIST OR COMMUNIST WHO LIKES TO HAVE THE GOVERNMENT TELL YOU WHERE TO GO, WHEN TO GO, AND HOW TO FUCKING DO IT."
How is this much different from the current system? When I jacked my back up at work I had to conform to my company insurance regulations. I had to go to their chiropractor and could not see my own doctor (or at least those visits were not covered) and some medications were not approved by my company insurance so I was told what to ingest as well. :wtf:

I'm still not saying that the single payer plan is the best idea, but both here and in the public town halls all I hear is people loudly complaining that they don't want the Gov running their healthcare, I have yet to hear a single alternative idea.
How about the Gov asks each state to write up a plan of their own in cooperation with the state citizens and healthcare providers. Those plans could all be looked at and we could pick out all the good ideas to add to an overall federal insurance plan. If the federal plan is no good for you then maybe we could keep the local state plans in place for more options.
Well at least theres an idea. A good idea? Not sure, but it's something.

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system, so instead of flaming on a cannabis board that no government official is going to read anyway maybe you should go protest or write someone or something. Go do something constructive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by carinia

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system, so instead of flaming on a cannabis board that no government official is going to read anyway maybe you should go protest or write someone or something. Go do something constructive.

---

many ideas have been put forth that the lunatic left won't listen to, like
TORT reform, they don't want to discuss that because that would limit
lawyers and all the assholes in congress are lawyers themselves.

and competition, the government could allow competition between company's
over state lines, so people like you could buy the best policy available and
not be forced into the position you are in by the government. ...and don't
kid yourself into thinking that the 'public' option will promote competition,
it will kill competition instead!

and what about lifetime ownership of your own health insurance policy,
rather than that policy belonging to your employer. ...that way, you
start your policy when you are young and healthy and the premiums
are way low, then, if you change jobs for whatever reason, you take
your policy with you to the next job.

so there are a couple of ideas that are better than a government option,
and i'm just an old stoner, imagine the ideas i'd come up with if i were
in a position to make millions, like David Axelrod! ...oh, wait a minute,
his idea is to rob you of your freedom so he can make money!

the reason people seem so angry is because of morons like Barney
Frank and Nancy Pelosi shoving a government option down our throats!

the current administration has tripled the deficit and is still blaming Bush!

frankly, i don't trust any politician, they are all prostitutes in suits and i
am unwilling to trust them to do the right thing when they have proven
so often that all they care about is getting re-elected!

btw, did you see Barney Frank at his town meeting? ...did you see how he
treated his own constituents? ...frankly, i'm surprised he was ever elected, the
ignorant fuck!

this administration is quietly stripping us of all our freedoms and soon, we
won't be living in a free country any more, we'll be living in the United States
of Obama! ...and there might be no going back!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carinia

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork.

---

aside from the basic ideological argument against socialized medicine, this is the fundamental flaw in any step that takes any industry out of the private sector and places it into the hands of the state. CORRUPTION. while corruption is not the sole property of political animals, it is far more prevalent and harder to root out wherever they have the most power. trading influence for the support of backers and favors for votes, the denizens of the governmental bureaucracy have turned the concept of public service into nothing more than a power grab and the public welfare into an excuse to create unwieldy and nearly opaque fiefdoms. "health care reform" is a misnomer, carefully crafted to give the people a scapegoat to vent their frustration upon.

true reform would begin with the root causes for the high cost of health care. multi-million dollar payouts for medical errors, nonsensical and unevenly applied regulation, and a culture that esteems doctors and lawyers with near reverence and awe. activist judges, pushing an agenda of wealth redistribution, and bleeding heart juries, hoping that theirs may be the next big payoff, cost the industry billions of dollars in extravagant judgments and the necessary malpractice protection for simple human error and that can't help but be reflected in our medical bills and the general attitude of the industry. lawyers get rich on both sides of such audacious and often frivolous lawsuits and, with a government run by and beholden to the legal profession, no one is in any great hurry to do anything about it. the general public, caught up in the fervor of entitlement and the new american dream of something for nothing, must reassess the concept of fault and quit blaming the wealthy for the plight of the poor, but such a paradigm shift can never occur as long as we are so willingly hypnotized by the blame laying of self-serving politicians and their media lap dogs.

ultimately, it is the people themselves that are to blame for this so-called health care crisis. the greed created by a sense of entitlement to all the best and an apathy that leads to buck passing has stripped us of our power within the marketplace. the people are not entitled to medical care, merely to access to that care. we do not support those who spend years of their lives training to enter the medical profession, so we must pay them for that effort at whatever price the market will bear. we cannot expect the animals of government to force an industry to conform to standards that we do not demand they conform to themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by justanotherbozo

this administration is quietly stripping us of all our freedoms and soon, we won't be living in a free country any more, we'll be living in the United States of Obama! ...and there might be no going back!

---

once again, blaming an administration instead of our own apathy and greed. the people placed these fools in power, in hopes of the great something for nothing, and they have only themselves to blame for the loss of liberty that ensues. just as baby bush and company and those before them were allowed to strip us of our rights, so too are we allowing this current crop of thieves to chain us to their idea of the perfect society and emasculate the constitution. our own greed has led us to this sorry pass and continues to degrade this experiment in liberty into a nation of willing slaves and condescending masters.

it makes me kinds glad i'll soon be dead and won't have to watch us fritter away our freedoms for the illusions of comfort and security.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by carinia

I've been pretty quiet the past few days because this is such a personal argument for me. I lost my job in April, (where I was paying 60 bucks every week for my husband and I) and was planning to go to COBRA, at a cost of 1600 a month for just myself and not my husband. That was way more than unemployment! Now Im working for a non profit its 310 a paycheck for half the coverage I did have. My sister is paying 600 every two week through her job, and because of her pre existing conditions she is exempt from coverage from almost everything.

Now you have some idea how much your employer was paying for your insurance.

I just want something affordable, so if the hubby's back goes out, were not sitting on a 900 MRI bill. So that if I get pregnant, I don't have to worry about how much the hospital stay is going to be. (Which is funny, since they don't pay for birth control OR for pregnancy) I don't mind paying in, but I want it to be fair; at least equal access! I don't like having options about what I would like to give up health wise so we can pay the mortgage.

The last thing you should be thinking about is getting pregnant, because from the things you have said you cannot afford a child. You should be planning on how to NOT get pregnant (planned parenthood has free birth control).

And we are a normal family. My hubby and I, to quote drudown, are not lazy, we're not homeless (still have to pay the mortgage), I do like pot but whose to say anything about addicts there?, and for fucking sure we're not a worthless. I just want an option where my family is covered; without having to worry about what is exempt, and without having to pay 70% of our pay each month in taxes and health care costs.

There are a lot of things that could be done with this health care bill, but its going to end with a lot of pork. I honestly am SICK of the people who are turning it into an arguement about how bad the "plan" is. Shut up and come up with an IDEA already. The fact is the government is the only entity that can fix the system,

---

That is not a factBad government plans NEVER go away. The exact opp[osite is probably closer to the truth, "The fact is the government is the only entity that cannot fix the system."

if not,
you can read it here: Search Results - THOMAS (Library of Congress)

PAGE 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!

PAGE 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!

PAGE 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals proccess)

PAGE 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. YOU will have NO choice. None.

PAGE 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.

PAGE 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.

PAGE 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.

PAGE 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (read: SEIU, UAW, and ACORN)

PAGE 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.

PAGE 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange. (i.e., total government control of private plans)

PAGE 91: Goverment mandates linguistic infrastructure for services: translation: illegal aliens

PAGE 95: The Goverment will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government run Health Care plan.

PAGE 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.

PAGE 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insureers will be crushed.

PAGE 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.

PAGE 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.

PAGE 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.

PAGE 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400k or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll.

PAGE 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250-400k, who does not offer the public option pays a 2-6% tax on payroll.

PAGE 167: Any individual who doesn't have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.

PAGE 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them)

PAGE 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.

PAGE 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as a tax." YES IT REALLY SAYS THAT

PAGE 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and poor will be most affected.

PAGE 241: Doctors: no matter what specialty you have, you'll all be paid the same.

PAGE 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.

PAGE 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.

PAGE 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power driven wheelchairs.

PAGE 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the world of rationed healthcare.

PAGE 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. ( can any of you see this leading to a refusal to treat?)

PAGE 298: Doctors if you treat a patient during an intital admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.

PAGE 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited from owning and investing in healthcare companies.

PAGE 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.

PAGE 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input; in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.

PAGE 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures; i.e., rationing.

PAGE 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMO's, etc.

PAGE 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.

PAGE 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone)

PAGE 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Goverment provides Senior Citizens with approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death; assisted suicide, euthanasia. (Hitler called his end-of-life plan the 'Final Solution')

PAGE 427: Goverment madates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.

PAGE 429: Advanc Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.

PAGE 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.

PAGE 469: Community based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.

PAGE 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.

PAGE 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervens in your marriage.

PAGE 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating, and rationing those services.

As any rational person can see, this system has potential for a LOOOOONG list of abuses (aside from the obvious ones that exist from the get go).

ya, single payer~ anyone out there still LOOOOVE Obama? are you still gonna love him when his plan results in the premature death of your parents or grandparents? or how about the denial of treatment for your special needs child or child with cancer? this system is only the beginning.

those of you who haven't already REALLY need to research what you can about the NEW WORLD ORDER, the AMERO, the North American Union, the RFID chip.....God help us all