Questions on Subbing

Hey all,

I was reading through the substitution thread, and was hoping to get a little more clarity on subbing an authentic urine sample.

1) Is gender still not relevant in an employment test? Searching the forums yielded an answer of no from 11/2012, but figured it doesn't hurt to ask when I'm creating a post anyways. While most of the concern raised around the topic seems to be about "What if I'm male and sub pregnant female", I was hoping to clarify that the testing group is not able to test for anything outside of drugs (so nothing like birth control would show up, even if it is a heavier dosage/medication)?

2) How long can urine be saved at different temperatures?
From what I saw, it looked like 8 hours at room temp; but up to a year frozen. I don't know when my test would be required (I work for the company, just changing departments), outside of it could be up to about a month away. I feel fairly confident that my girlfriend would provide me with urine (smoked once in the last 8 years, fairly confident I can trust hers to pass!), but due to work schedules we can generally only meet up on the weekends. Is there any sort of breakdown that would happen to a sample if it is frozen and thawed nowadays (the posts in the sub thread about it being safe were about 8 years old)?

2 cont.) If it is safe to freeze, what kind of containers are easily available that you can freeze urine in and what is the best way to reheat it? I haven't taken a drug test in about 4 years, so I can't remember if I would have enough time to come home and warm it up on the stove or if I would have to use the microwave (or if there's even a difference between the two). Left to my own devices, I would probably put it in some tupperware (like the kind with the screw on lid) to freeze it, and then microwave it back to a better temperature.

Thanks!

Damn, wish I had gotten back sooner to edit the first post instead of adding another. Have another two questions as the girlfriend has said yes to helping.

1) She will hang out on the deck with me while I smoke (she enjoys tobacco at the same time so it's beneficial for both). She's around a very minute amount of second hand smoke from me. I'm assuming this will not make a difference in whether she is clean enough to pass, but I don't know how to quantify how little the tolerance allowed is

2)I have 4 packages of QF 6.0 that I am hesitant to use do to the recent failures in Ohio and Washington (in Colo so would expect testing to be akin to Wash). I will be returning 3 of them for 5.7-1 through Spectrum, but thought that I might as well use the containers from the fourth for my actual subbing itself. I haven't opened the box yet, so I wonderin[g: if QF synth comes already in the bottle, how thoroughly will I need to clean the container out before putting the authentic urine in? And would it be safe to vinegar it [the container], then rinse it out will I be able to use the bottle? Seems a good way to clean out whatever stuff causes QF 6 to fail, but I don't want to do something that will wreck the sample and call for a retest.

I am blowing up this thread! After I got done with work today, I did some more research on the information I was looking for. While I've answered some questions, it's raised another.

Anyone who reads this and notices I am wrong, please reply asap so I don't accidentally misinform others Please answer any of the remaining questions if you can! If I can get all of these answered, I will be subbing my girlfriend's urine for my own and will post the resolution so others can have more references to use.

1) Gender of urine is irrelevant
There are many people online that claim differently than this. Most "Answers" websites fall in this category. On the majority of forums I've found, typically one to two people claim that it can be detected, but board experts denounce these allegations and display proof as to why. On cannabis.com, BurntToast posted back in August 2103 that gender is still a non-factor, and I think we all respect his (her?) opinion.

2) Storage
Appears to be 8 hours for room temperature (per N2 per Urine Suppliers), up to a week refriegerated (Random McDuder Online), up to one year frozen (per N2). Recommended to not use a microwave to heat up or thaw organic sample. Instead, recommendation is warm water and then hand held warmers to get to full temp (microwave may be outdated now. Per N2 on a thread from 2003 that appears to be the same as their substitution thread here.

3) Secondhand Smoke
It takes a lot. The analogy I saw from another site was that if a non-smoker was in a car getting hot-boxed for hours AND they took the test the next day they MAY fail. For my referenced situation, the amount imbibed would be far too little to cause a fail (even at 15 threshold? -unknown).

4) Cleaning containers
Be diligent? From what I've read and what I'm forecasting, it should be fairly simple to clean with something to kill all the residue, then wash thoroughly to remove whatever the cleaner was. Seems to be Easy Peasy Lemon Squeasy.

Remaining Question (and requests for 2 confirmations):
Confirmations: Am I correct in the storage time frame and the second hand smoke at the lower cutoffs? If not, please educate

Question(s):
1) Can too much creatnine (or however you spell it when it's metabolized) cause up red flags? I may try to procur my roommates urine (non-smoker for 90 days, VERY athletic and has approx 5% body fat- definitely clean!), but from researching the web, it looks like the creatine he takes for working out may cause an issue. For reference he hits the gym once per day, and takes one serving/scoop of the supplement that he uses per day.

2) Is there anything I need to worry about besides "is the sample clean" when subbing with an authentic sample? My girlfriend lives a fairly "average" lifestyle (work, hang out a bit, etc) but hasn't done a single drug since February (and even that was only like 5 puffs!) outside of my second hand smoke. She did have to take a prescription that *may* show on the test, but research on the internet (plus information from her mother, who works for a pharmaceutical company) says that it should be a non-fact after 2 days. Assuming that would no longer flag, is there anything else I need to watch for?

Would there be any benefit to using the roommates urine over hers? The information from the internet seems to be fairly split, but my understanding is that there is not a difference to using his over hers except his hyper-active lifestyle versus her more relaxed one (and I can't even figure out if that's a relevant difference in the end).

Sorry to ask so many questions, I've never subbed before and I'm lucky enough that have two choices: 1) take a crappier job with less advancement opportunity but no test or 2) better job, better ability to move vertically within a quarter, requires a 10 panel pass. I just want to make sure that I make the right choice.

Thanks!!!!

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1) Can too much creatnine (or however you spell it when it's metabolized) cause up red flags? I may try to procur my roommates urine (non-smoker for 90 days, VERY athletic and has approx 5% body fat- definitely clean!), but from researching the web, it looks like the creatine he takes for working out may cause an issue.

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Whoever told you this is wrong. High creatinine levels are a non-issue because there are no upper limits established for creatinine. As long as the creatinine level is over 20 mg/dL, its satisfactory.

When seeking out a sub donor, nothing has changed - gender is still irrelevant. Just be absolutely sure that the sub donor is completely drug-free (including anything perscribed by the doctor, ot OTC) to minimize any hassles with the MRO. Be also sure that the sub donor had not consumed an abundant amount of fluids prior to giving you the sample..

Thank you Burnt! Most of what I found on the web did say that there was no upper limits for creatinine, there just happened to be a couple of sites that said it could cause a red flag (though these were predominantly workout sites and seemed to be referring more in the world of athletics as opposed to pre-employment and could have easily been outdated).

I talked to the roommate this morning, and he is cool with providing a sub for me. Shouldn't have to worry about fluids- the only time either of us drinks a copious amount of water is when we drink, which generally only happens on Friday nights. Outside of that, we both usually have some sort of liquid on hand, but definitely not pushing it into the body.

Would you be able to weigh in on storage? With us as roommates, it seems less imperative- but I can't remember if a pre-employment style drug test is "You have 45 minutes to get there and be ready to present your sample" (at which point I better have some on hand on all the time!) or if it's "Take this test within the next three days and get the slip back to us" (to which I can take some time).

And do OTC Drug Screens have the same cut-off levels that the immunoassay would (checked Quest's website and their 10-panel will be immunoassay followed by GC/MS as needed)? I found a 10-Panel Cup through Wal-Mart that I was thinking of testing my subs with before the test (better safe than sorry), and that would also allow me to check and see if the girlfriend's prescription is cleared out if I do need to use hers for any reason.

I've been practicing practicing practicing! I think that is absolutely the best advice from N2 thread (and all around the forum) and it's definitely making me feel more comfortable! I've been gradually moving up the chain and adding more and more elements- I started with just pouring from the QF bottle to a shampoo bottle (if I can make it in a smaller container I'm ready for a wider one), then once I could do that moved onto storing the bottle in boxer briefs and doing a full trial run in underwear. Now I feel fairly comfortable doing it fully clothed, though I do want to start making less noise while going through with it, so some more practice is needed. I wasn't too happy with how easy it felt that the bottle could slip out of boxer briefs though, so I am going to go pick up some briefs tonight and sew some material into a little pouch in the crotch area, Once that's done, everything is a go!!!!

I don't think I'll have any more questions, so once I get this down I can go to my HR department and tell them I want to move to the new department! I don't know how quickly the test will be after that, but I will make sure to post my experience and my results- only fair for how much this board has helped me :)

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Would you be able to weigh in on storage? With us as roommates, it seems less imperative- but I can't remember if a pre-employment style drug test is "You have 45 minutes to get there and be ready to present your sample" (at which point I better have some on hand on all the time!) or if it's "Take this test within the next three days and get the slip back to us" (to which I can take some time).

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If a urine sample is not used within an 8 hour period, it should be chilled or frozen. As far as storage life, the answers are found by utilizing the Search button.

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And do OTC Drug Screens have the same cut-off levels that the immunoassay would (checked Quest's website and their 10-panel will be immunoassay followed by GC/MS as needed)? I found a 10-Panel Cup through Wal-Mart that I was thinking of testing my subs with before the test (better safe than sorry), and that would also allow me to check and see if the girlfriend's prescription is cleared out if I do need to use hers for any reason.

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Most home test utilize a 50 ng cutoff for THC, which is the same as most assays used for the initial screening at the lab. As far as the other panels, theres no telling. And any further discussion gets into an area of off-topic drugs which is prohibited, as per the Board Rules.

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Originally Posted by Burnt Toast

Whoever told you this is wrong. High creatinine levels are a non-issue because there are no upper limits established for creatinine. As long as the creatinine level is over 20 mg/dL, its satisfactory.

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Hey Burnt,

Last questions. I swear, I promise (well, hopefully).

1) Are the digital thermometers on the side of QF boxes very easy to make unresponsive? While I normally have been testing with temperate water (I'm just pouring it back and forth between an empty shampoo bottle an the QF bottle), I have had warmer water at points. One time the temperature gauge came on....but when I was practicing about and hour ago it wouldn't activate at all. I originally didn't want to have to open multiple more of the QF packages I have (was going to exchange through Spectrum for 5.7), but if the thermometer dies that easily then I will either need to do so, or purchase some more temp readers from Walgreens/Walmart/Wherever.

2) Do you happen to know what the average creatinine level is in males? Each night I read a couple more posts to prepare more and more, and I came across one where you posted regulations for dilution, including that the lab must consider a sample dilute if it is 2<x<20 mg/dl. When searching the web for average for humans, I came across a couple sites stating it was .5-1.2ish mg/dl, and another that said 40-300 mg/dl (everywhere else I found was in mg passed per day). Trying to figure out if I should ask the roomie to eat some more creatine the day(s) before my test.

3) What is typically the timeframe for an employer to receive the results? As I mentioned before, this test is for a company I already work with, I'm just moving departments. As such, I'm going to be super nervous until I get outside of the timeframe (and really, until I go to training for the new group). It is Quest Diagnostics 10-Panel, which their website states is Immunoassay + Confirmation (if desired). With the confirmation, does that typically only happen if the Immunoassay is failed?

I've started the paperwork for the new department, and need to give my official decision by next friday. Originally we were under the impression that the testing may not need to be until Dec. 20ish, but I talked to a girl going into the same department at the same time, and she took hers today (filled out paperwork yesterday and confirmed the transfer). As such, seems like I will be able to post my results soon-ish.

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1) Are the digital thermometers on the side of QF boxes very easy to make unresponsive? While I normally have been testing with temperate water (I'm just pouring it back and forth between an empty shampoo bottle an the QF bottle), I have had warmer water at points. One time the temperature gauge came on....but when I was practicing about and hour ago it wouldn't activate at all. I originally didn't want to have to open multiple more of the QF packages I have (was going to exchange through Spectrum for 5.7), but if the thermometer dies that easily then I will either need to do so, or purchase some more temp readers from Walgreens/Walmart/Wherever.

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The Quick Fix synthetic urine does not come with a digital thermometer. The QF comes with a temperature strip affixed to the bottle (readings of 90-100F). Theres no electronic anything involved. If the temp strip fails to show a "green box" reading, and the bottle is obviously warm to the touch, then the temp is above 100F. Let it cool down until a green box appears.

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Do you happen to know what the average creatinine level is in males? Each night I read a couple more posts to prepare more and more, and I came across one where you posted regulations for dilution, including that the lab must consider a sample dilute if it is 2<x<20 mg/dl. When searching the web for average for humans, I came across a couple sites stating it was .5-1.2ish mg/dl, and another that said 40-300 mg/dl (everywhere else I found was in mg passed per day). Trying to figure out if I should ask the roomie to eat some more creatine the day(s) before my test.

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You are overworrying and overthinking this. In the world of drug testing, labs only are concerned that the creatinine level is above 20 mg/dL. As long is its above 20mg/dL, its satisfactory. No fuss. No muss. On to the next urine specimen...

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What is typically the timeframe for an employer to receive the results?

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That really depends on how backed up the labs is.

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It is Quest Diagnostics 10-Panel, which their website states is Immunoassay + Confirmation (if desired). With the confirmation, does that typically only happen if the Immunoassay is failed?

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The Search button will answer that, as that question has been addressed and answered many times throughout the DT forum.