Water wash before ethanol extraction of cannabis oil?

There are many solvents used to make hash oil. Among them are butane, naptha, isopropyl alcohol, and ethanol alcohol, which is food grade drinking alcohol. This thread is concerning only the ethanol alcohol extraction of the essential oils (hash oil). The other toxic chemicals are not feasible for me and i don't care how many people say all the bad stuff is evaporated etc. I don't care and I will never use those chemicals as long as I live unless I learn a lot more about chemistry and have access to pharmaceutical grade solvents. Anything short of that it is out of the question.


Now to the main question and discussion point of this thread. I know the main reason people knock using ethanol as a solvent is because it also extracts some of the other water soluble alkaloids or ingredients like chlorophyll, etc. and creates a darker green less pure (thc percentage wise) finished product.


But.... Since chlorophyll is water soluble and thc is not, why can't you just do a water wash on the cannabis plant material for a couple days to extract the chlorophyll and various other impurities and then strain that and then do the ethanol extraction on the remaining plant material after that.


This, in theory, would result in a purer finished product, which I'm sure would probably still have a slight green color to it unless you really let it soak for a long time. It would also remove most of the pesticides and other shit that might be on your bud. I only buy organic veggies and hate all the chemicals floating around in the modern world. And also I just had severe surgery and want to use this for medicinal purposes. It doesant make sense to me to use toxic chemicals on something your trying to use for health purposes.

Sorry to all you people who like to use the chemicals to make your hash oil. I'm not telling you it's wrong. I just don't trust it. I know butane is quick and makes very nice looking honey oil. But I've also heard that even after a full purge there can be trace amounts of heavy metals left over, I don't have sources and this may not be true. But hearsay like that is enough to deter me. You will never convince me. I will never use those toxic chemicals on anything that is going in my body no matter what.


I haven't seen anything on this specifically on the Internet even after scouring it for days for this specifically so I figure it warrants a thread. The closest thing to this I've seen is a post I read on the 420 magazine website about water curing bud, but not on making hash oil. But it seems like pretty much the same concept except the bud is still used for smoking afterwards and not extracted to make hash oil.



So I guess my question is: has anyone had any experience with this type of method or know anything concerning this? I'm relatively new to making oils and am just curious. And am also wondering why this method hasent been used to my knowledge, because it seems so simple and straightforward. It also eliminates the use of any toxic chemicals. So why hasent anyone done it? And if they have why isent it everywhere on the Internet? Because this makes the chemical people's arguments why the chemicals should be used completely useless if it is as true and as feasible as it seems to me... But I'm not a chemist or anything so I might be missing something. I don't think so though.

If this is true the only benefit I can see for using toxic chemicals that aren't pharmaceutical grade is the speed of the extraction process. And I'm sure you could still get a little higher thc content with butane or something. But it's not enough to be worth poisoning myself. At least to me.

Any feedback or input would be greatly appreciated. Ill be doing an extraction this way on an ounce of some good herb either way.

Update: just threw the ounce of herb in a jar with some water. About 1 part weed 2 parts water. I will probably only let it sit for a couple days before straining and then beginning the ethanol step, nothing too long. As I'm trying to do this right but also quickly because I'm in a good deal of pain and am trying not to take the painkillers. It will be nice if this works out and I have something to help the pain instead of the narcotic painkillers which I think are probably hard on the liver and dull the mind a little more.

"So I guess my question is: has anyone had any experience with this type of method or know anything concerning this?"

Well, I did think about it.

Here's why I didn't try it.

Attachment 290871

Found a better idea!
That lovely, amber liquid was extracted with 180 proof Ethanol.
(If I could get absolute Ethanol it would absorb water from the air and suck any remaining water from the buds.)

How then?
Why no green?
Simple.

We eliminate the water and water solubles by simply freezing them out.
We freeze the buds, and chill the Ethanol to well below freezing.
Then pour the chilled alcohol over the frozen buds in a doubled ziplock bag.

Shake well for no more than 3 minutes.
(I do that inside the chest freezer to prevent thawing. )
Pour it through a sieve into a coffee filter and repeat for a second wash.

You can see the quality it produces. :)

Wanna see what you are missing.
Just let the crap sit in the filterpaper until it warms to above freezing.
It turns the paper a bright, fluorescent, green as the water solubles thaw.

Then you can use hot water to extract the last of the Ethanol.
It makes a heavy greenish sludge that is suitable for topical application.

I start with Everclear. It's about $20 per litre here.
When I boil off the Ethanol I capture and condense it for re-use.
I only have to buy it one time. :)

Where did I learn all this good stuff?
Graywolf!
The man knows what he's doing.
Look him up.

Aloha nui,
Weeze

Dude, I literally just woke up and the first thing I did was check on here to see if there was any new information. I wasent quite prepared for my mind to be fully blown wide open like it just was when I read your post!! Haha. That is pure genius!

I always thought it was interesting that I could leave alcohol in the freezer to keep it cold without it freezing like water or most other things would! And this method makes use of that very low freezing point of alcohol and somewhat higher freezing point of the water and other parts that are unwanted it sounds like, if I understand all of this correctly. It's all new to me though because now that I hear the method and see its results I just want to know all of the reasons behind it and why this works. You don't necessarily have to be the one to explain it to me me in depth, I just need to know and will now be investigating more deeply into the reasons behind the method you have just shown me. So does the THC also have a very low freezing point which makes this method possible? Or does it not matter because its degree of solubility in alcohol is much higher than that of the other impurities? Or is it because most or all of the water soluble aspects and impurities of the plant are Trapped in the frozen water of the plant at that temperature?? Which prevents them from going into solution with the alcohol, and since thc is not water soluble it is saved from being trapped frozen with all of the other water soluble material? Which then in turn allows it to go into solution with the alcohol at that temperature while the rest is still frozen? Damn man, this really has my gears turnin.

My biggest question would be, and I'm sure Graywolf or you have probably already thought this through and covered this angle, but: is two 3 minute washes at that low of a temperature enough to extract most of the goodies? I'm worried about the yield being low, although this really seems like the way to go for the purest oil possible using ethanol as a solvent. This is a question like a student to a teacher. Not like I am questioning the feasibility of this method. It just has me very intrigued. I am very thankful for you taking the time and sharing this knowledge with me my friend.

No charge brah,
That's what the net is for, yah?

"So does the THC also have a very low freezing point which makes this method possible? Or does it not matter because its degree of solubility in alcohol is much higher than that of the other impurities? Or is it because most or all of the water soluble aspects and impurities of the plant are Trapped in the frozen water of the plant at that temperature?? Which prevents them from going into solution with the alcohol, and since thc is not water soluble it is saved from being trapped frozen with all of the other water soluble material? Which then in turn allows it to go into solution with the alcohol at that temperature while the rest is still frozen?"

Both of the above.
The resin has a low freezing temp and Ethanol is a good solvent.
I too questioned the 3 minute wash.
But then, I too, question just about everything. :D It is my nature.

Here's what I did.

Bought a $ 20 microscope.
(A $10 Ratty ol' shack will do jus' fine.)
Took some "before pictures":
Attachment 290875Attachment 290876Attachment 290877

Then did a 3 minute waltz.
And took some more pictures:


Which I have just spent a half hour looking for.
Got thousands of photos.
I'll post 'em when I find 'em.
Not terribly interesting, just buds with no visible capitate, or sessile, glands.
So, yes, a 3 minute wash is sufficient.

If I can't find?
No worry,
Left some spent buds in a coffee pot after boiling the last of the alcohol out of it.
I'll jus' go take mo' snaps/
Yanked out a wet bud for it's closeup and had to pinch myself.

Crawlies!
Some sort of larvae!
Thousands of them.
And tiny black, running, specks.
WTF!

Super dried, then hard frozen for a week.
Then washed twice with ethanol.
Then boiled in water for 20 minutes!
So sterilized, yah?

Then left on the lanai for about 3 days and it's fully infested with something.
Saw no flyers, but this had to have happened after I left it out wet and uncovered.

Type atcha later, I gotta go process the new photos to see what I caught.

Cheese and onions! It's always somethin'!
Aloha,
Weeze

Sounds good dude. Must have been infested after the extraction process I doubt they could have survived through two alcohol washes, Being frozen, and then being boiled! Ha. That is if I understood what you said correctly. But if I did it sounds like you got pretty much all the good stuff out anyways first so it doesant sound like too big of a cause for concern. Interesting none the less. I guess humans aren't the only species with an affinity towards the herb! Haha.


Anyways I will throw an update in here as well on my current science experiment. I just got finished straining the water from the herbaceous dankness. The drained water was a brown color. Probably a little darker than a medium dark beer. Like a dark lager color. It wasent green like I expected but brown. But that could have to do with the weed that was used which was kind of a darker brown red hair lookin bud. There was actually two kinds and the other one was more lime green but the darker one probably overpowered the color of that.

Anyways the bud is now soaking in 190 proof at room temperature. I am going to wait to try the frozen method you described untill next time since this one was already underway and I wanted to try it just once.

I was wondering how long I need to let it sit untill I get most of the goodies. You say three minutes, twice, for the method where the bud and ethanol is below the freezing point of water. But what about room temperature, does that change anything? Because I've heard anything from a couple days, to a week, to a month. I know people do it in a day with heat in a crock pot or whatever. But if just at room temperature, how long would you think would be sufficient??

for qwiso hash I do the wash for only 30 seconds. it uses frozen weed and freezer iso alcohol

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jack Charles

Sounds good dude. Must have been infested after the extraction process I doubt they could have survived through two alcohol washes, Being frozen, and then being boiled! Ha. That is if I understood what you said correctly. But if I did it sounds like you got pretty much all the good stuff out anyways first so it doesant sound like too big of a cause for concern. Interesting none the less. I guess humans aren't the only species with an affinity towards the herb! Haha.

For you, perhaps.
For me, it's quite upsetting.
I have loverly ladies in my care and, super bugs, I don't need. :(
One maggot looks pretty much like another, so I've made a little creche in a glass jar.
Should be easier to I. D. the hatch.


Anyways I will throw an update in here as well on my current science experiment. I just got finished straining the water from the herbaceous dankness. The drained water was a brown color. Probably a little darker than a medium dark beer. Like a dark lager color. It wasent green like I expected but brown. But that could have to do with the weed that was used which was kind of a darker brown red hair lookin bud. There was actually two kinds and the other one was more lime green but the darker one probably overpowered the color of that.

Anyways the bud is now soaking in 190 proof at room temperature. I am going to wait to try the frozen method you described untill next time since this one was already underway and I wanted to try it just once.

I was wondering how long I need to let it sit untill I get most of the goodies. You say three minutes, twice, for the method where the bud and ethanol is below the freezing point of water.

Answered your own question ya did. :D
Any longer than that, and you pick up undesirables.
With good bud, I get yields of >20% by weight.
With good bubble, I can get >70%.

If you wish to make a product that is free of undesirables, (pesticides, bug poo, spores, etc.) it's best to use as short a soak as possible.
It's also worth knowing that the capitate glands have a shell that is a waxy material.
That material could well hold contaminants, that are not resin soluble.
After you get pure, amber colored oil, a re-freeze and cold filtering will remove much of the wax.

But what about room temperature, does that change anything?

Indeed it does!
Chemical reactions are all about temperature.

Because I've heard anything from a couple days, to a week, to a month. I know people do it in a day with heat in a crock pot or whatever. But if just at room temperature, how long would you think would be sufficient??

---

The long soak at room temps is not about getting the resin.
The resin extraction is maxed in 6 minutes.

The long soak is about decarbing.
It takes months at room temperatures.
Once the oil is purged and purified, you can do a controlled decarb @ 260 ℉ and it will take ~20 minutes.
Of course, you can decarb the weed in your oven before you start.

But, you need to use heat for purging the last of the solvent anyway, so . . .
:)

Aloha,
Weeze

I guess it's not good that you have the bugs lurking around after a second thought. Even though it sounds like the oil was already finished and they were indulging on the leftover material, but that still means you have bugs around that enjoy the herb which I suppose is a problem. Dident mean to sound inconsiderate, I guess I dident think about consequences past the initial incident.

I really appreciate all the information though my brotha. Through the past couple days I have been learning that I still have much to learn about all this and there is a lot I do not know.

I guess all there is now is to just wait and see how it all turns out. I will definitely keep this thread up to date and post the finished results with some pictures.

Good luck getting to the bottom of the bug problem though Weezard!

And thanks for your response as well shovel handle. It sounds like from what I've been hearing that doing the extraction below freezing is the best way to go because all the water solubles are tied up in ice.

I'm thinking something along those lines will be my next experiment. Except I think I'm going to stick with ethanol probably and use the method Weezard was suggesting and have seen Graywolf explain on another site a little bit ago. I just have to do a little more research first just so I can go into it with a better understanding than I have now. Which I admit is quite feeble.

Weez, sweeeeeeet bro! Know I could find link on this & yea dying to experiment so I'm going to the source, gotta link where I may find a "how do"?

***** Fidelis*****

:s4: