New...And May Need Help

Hello all! Iâ??ve been lurking for some time reading and learning as much as possible, but from the success Iâ??ve had I shouldâ??ve come forward earlier. After >1 year of unpalatable and disappointing produce with an old feeding schedule, Iâ??m finally feeling somewhat successful with a new program as the flowers are much fuller, powdery, and aromatic. However, now into my 6th week of flowering, my fan leaves are curlingâ?¦the sides curling down, but now some are curling up. Leaf color is still good with no indication of over fertilization, other than the curling. Iâ??ve been (finally) feeling like things are going good for me, but now I canâ??t help but think things are beginning to take a turn for the worseâ?¦which is why Iâ??m inquiring. I just need some piece of mind since I don't have anyone to refer to in person. Therefore I filled out as best as I could the Troubleshooting Form - Peat-based mediums Q&A and included it below.

I â??wasâ?� using an old HN 10-week Organic feeding schedule that eliminated the base nutrients (essentially Nitrogen) at week 3, but with the most recent effort Iâ??ve been using their new schedule that continues base nutrients up and into to the last week and also includes a Ca/Mg additive. Within the last month Iâ??ve also included flower enhancers in the program. The new feeding schedule has shown to be very promising so far. Below, Iâ??ve included links to both schedules for reference (I hope this is acceptable).

Old schedule (no success) ...
http://www.humboldtnutrients.com/sch...nic-10-Mod.pdf

New schedule (successful, so far) â?¦
http://www.humboldtnutrients.com/sch...Organic-10.pdf


What is your experience level? (first timer, novice, experienced...)
First time growerâ?¦25+ year consumer.


Your Equipment:
1) Type and wattage of lights. (MH, HPS, CFL's, tube fluorescents, LED's)
400w HPS - flowering

2) Distance from tops?
~1.5â?? for flowering

3) Reflector type? (cool tube set-up, bat wing, enclosed reflector, bare bulb...)
Max Wing horizontal reflector

4) Is there a consistent fresh air supply?
Yes

5) Do you have an exhaust fan and a circulation fan?
Both. Circulating fan runs constantly, and exhaust fan is temperature controlled.

6) What are the bulb wattages, kelvin ratings, and schedule?
Gro Bright 400w HPS, not sure Kelvins, 55,000 lumens, 12hr on/12hr off

Your medium:
7) Specific brand and type of soil, (coco, peat based soilless...) and anything you've added to it. (vermiculite, perlite, worm castings...)
Premier Pro-Mix BX, no additions.

8) Size of container.
2 gallon

9) Did you use peat pucks (or similar) to root clones or germinate seedlings?
Root clones via rooting powder, and planted in small pots with Pro-Mix and light nutrient water.


Your nutrients and water:
10) Source of water? (tap, bottled or filtered) What's it's ph before adjusting?
Well Water. Our well water is from a shallow sand and gravel aquifer and is potable straight from the ground without treatment (no iron, sulfur, etc.). It is from the same shallow aquifer from which there is a tapped well-known and well-used spring just down the road. EC is ~120-140 ppm, pH is 6.4-6.8. In case it matters for soil growing, the water DO is high at ~ 9.5 mg/L, and ORP is close to 190 mV.

11) Method of checking water ph. (ph pen, test strips, aquarium test kit...)
Hanna pH/EC pen

12) Method of adjusting water ph. (phosphoric acid, white vinegar, hydrated lime, PH Up...)
I purchased for this adjustment pH Up and pH Down solutions. I mix nutrients in gallon containers, and let sit (shaking a few times during so) for > 24 hrs prior to adjusting pH and feeding. pH typically lowers during this time and I generally have to adjust up.

13) Specific brand and N-P-K ratio for each bottle. List dosages (quantity per gallon) and current feeding schedule.

Approximately 600 ml nutrient solution per pot per week. Iâ??m currently using Humboldt Nutrients New Organic 10-week program, please refer to the above link (I hope you donâ??t mind) for quantities as they change weekly.
The only substitutions areâ?¦
- Botanical Pro Grow 3-2-4 (in lieu of HN Grow Natural 2-1-6)
- Organicare Humex 4% Humic Acid (in lieu of HN Hum-Bolt 8% Humic Acid)
- AN Tarantula and AN Piranha (in lieu of HN Myco Madness, HN Maximum, and HN White Widow)
The only additions to the HN feeding program are the bloom enhancers.

In summary:
Base Nutrients
Botanical Pro Grow (3-2-4) veg and flowering
HN Bloom Natural (0-10-0) flowering
HN Deuce Deuce (0-0-22) flowering

Additives
HN Equilibrium (Ca/Mg supplement) flowering
Organicare Humex (4% humic acid) veg and flowering
HN Flavorful (8% refined humic acid) veg and flowering

Bio-Innoculants
HN Prozyme (80 enzymes) veg and flowering
AN Tarantula (19 bacteria) veg

Root Stimulants
AN Piranha (26 fungi) veg
HN Humboldt Roots (root stimulant) veg

Carboydrates
HN Honey ES (sugars) flowering

Bloom/Flower Enhancers
AN Big Blood (purchased, never used yet)
AN Big Bud Powder
AN Overdrive (purchased, never used yet)


14) How often are you watering between feedings, and how much per watering?
1 watering in between feeding, ~600ml per event.

15) Any additives or tea's? (Superthrive, CalMag, molasses, Mother's Earth...)
Just started with AN Big Bud powder (1/3 tsp/gal). Also started HN Ca/Mg supplement (1/4 tsp/gal) as per the new schedule, and been using HN Honey ES as sugars.

16) Are your ph levels stable, or do they fluctuate?
Never measured soil pHâ?¦yet. Iâ??ve been toying with the idea of purchasing a soil pH pen, but thought since Iâ??ve been introducing adjusted pH nutrients and water that soil pH should be relatively constant and correct.

17) What is your ingoing water's ph? ...your runoff ph?
I try to adjust to 6.3-6.4. Never measured runoff.

18) Do you foliar feed? If so, with what, how often, and at what time do you spray?
Rarely, and only with a light solution of the Botanical Pro Grow. I want to start but feel I need to be successful from the roots up first before foliar additions.

Your growroom:
19) Indoors or outdoors?
Indoors

20) What size of closet, room or hut?
Room, 5â??W x 12â??L x 3â??-5.5â??H (sloped ceiling)

21) What are the temps and humidity levels while lights are on? ...With lights off?
Lights on ~80-85F. However, Iâ??ve been venting more recently to keep temps low since this summer it got up to 95F. Offâ?¦mmmmâ?¦60-75F Iâ??d have to guess. Humidity level is ambient and fluctuates to whatever is outdoors via the venting.

22) Have you seen signs of insects in the growroom?
Few spiders, but none on any plants, that is until a few days ago when I removed one jumping spider that was on a leaf. I eliminate whenever necessary. So far there is no indication of smaller insects around/on the plants or in the room. And the vents are filtered to assist in keeping insects out of the space.


Your strain:
23) What strain are you growing? (Indica dominate or Sativa dom?)
Not sure which is dominant. I was told it is a Blueberry/Diesel cross, which was obtained from a reliable source.

24) From seeds or clones?
Clones.

25) Is this an autoflower strain?
Not sure.

26) And last but not least, I can only allow height to get to ~2â?? tall due to ceiling constraints, and that is why the 400w bulb. I have plans for an inline air-cooled reflector/fan system to regulate the temperature better, and possibly go to 600w. But first things first, I need to know the produce is good before proceeding any further.

Thanks ahead of time for any and all recommendations to troubleshoot the curling and hopefully get tips to fine-tune my growing techniques from the info provided.

Scruggs

Wow, well, this is a great example of what not to do. Sorry but that's the truth. You're basically killing those plants with all that chemistry. If I were you I'd consider taking back to the store the unused containers, if possible, and use a ten-dollar solution. Get one bottle of Dynagrow 7-9-5 and use that in your promix. Also you've got to use bigger container than 2 gallons. They'll outgrow that pretty quickly if they grow right. I'm always curious as to why people buy so many ferts and additives. Do you get sold on this stuff at the store or just figure what the heck, I'll try it?
Get bigger pots and put in fresh promix. Run a bunch of water through the plants as they are in their smaller containers, then transplant them into the fresh promix, larger container setup. Put one half teaspoon of Dynagrow in a gallon of water and give them that, each plant gets one gallon. This will work because you'll be using fresh promix. A few days from now, water thoroughly with the same ratio, one half teaspoon per gallon of water to wet the rest of the soil. Then wait. I can't guarantee this will solve your problem, but it's obvious that you've spent too much money and are applying too much stuff, especially when all you can do is grow to 2 feet. You're killing them with chemistry. Perhaps a better solution would be just to transplant and stop feeding them and forget Dynagrow for now. There's a chance that all those nutes will last them the rest of the lifespan.

When I first purchased nutrients, my wife insisted on only organic ingredients and therefore the salesperson recommended and sold me only the Botanical Pro Grow, Organicare Humex, and HN Deuce Deuce to add during flowering. Afterward, I got onto the HN website and into their feeding programs and settled on an organic program thinking this was the way to go. Therefore, the extra additions were all my doing. Spent too much money? I've been thinking that all along, believe me, I dropped some cash...but what do I know.

The pots may be up to 3 gal, but in my mind comparing them to a 5 gal bucket the pots are ~1/3 the size.

Keep the comments coming, and don't think you'll be too hard on me. I need to know this stuff, not what I'm doing right, but what I'm doing wrong and how to correct it. Especially if this helps others in the long run.

Excellent description, and use of the form right up front. I appreciate that a lot, thanks.

In my opinion, you are #1 root bound, #2 using way to many ferts.

The folks at the botanical stores make money selling you those goodies and we all want the best for our little girls. BUT, it really can effect the taste of the product.

Look, I just use Cal/Mag as I RO to remove high iron. I PH adjust with baking soda. Fox Farms OF.
Veg only gets the OF and some NEEM foliar and light.
Flower gets some Molasses and Ultra snowstorm - and not a lot.

Nitrogen will make the product taste awful and you cannot cure it out. Plants should be repotted about every 3-6 weeks - depending - to fertilize and give the roots room to grow too.

Again, thanks for the great info, right up front.

Washougal and polishpollack have you covered, but I'm bored and thought of a few quick things that may help...

Downturned leaves (the 'claw) are the first signs of your ph dropping. Yellowing will most likely follow. Transplanting into a larger container of fresh Sunshine Mix should carry you through to harvest. (it has ph buffers in the mix) Regardless of timing, if they need a transplant, give 'em a careful transplant.

Are you ph'ing the water before adding the nutrients and additives, or after?
If you are adjusting the ph after adding the nutrients, then fine. But if you are ph'ing the water, then adding the full shopping list of items, you are likely dropping the ph too low.

Too much of the humic acid product(s) will kill your plants.

Redundancies will add-up, which can kill a plant.

This is the problem I've had with companies like Advanced Nutrients for many years. They'll sell you a product that can easily damage a crop, then sell you the additive to correct the problems caused by the original product. Then sell you one to remedy non-existent problems stemming from the other crap they sold you as being a preventative. All in the name of growing the best cannabis in the world...?
Sorry, but around these parts they call that a "snake oil". (a useless line of products, marketed to decieve)

Please have your wife explain to you the difference between a chemical compound and an organic compound. (hint: a chemical compound is a chemical compound regardless of where it originated. And the plant could care less if it's needs are being met) The label "organic" is nothing more than another marketing tool designed to fool the consumer into thinking it's products are superior. They're not. They are no less nor no more harmful to the enviornment, either.

Soil probes are useless, but that's ok...they suck anyway. And if your Hannah kicks the bucket, I'd go with a more reliable one if possible. Do you have calibrating solution for the ph pen?

Nursery pots are rated in dry volume increments. Unlike 5 gallon buckets which are liquid volume increments. I can almost squish 2 - 5 gallon nursery pots of soil, into a 5 gallon paint bucket.

If water is from a well, there is no need to outgas the chlorine, which is why others let theirs sit-out. (it's an unnecessary step for you) Mix what you'll use that day.

Keep it simple. Plants LOVE simple.

This is all good to know. I truly appreciate all the info as Iâ??m starting to see a bigger picture of what I should be doingâ?¦reducing the nutrients dramatically. The last crop looked good, heck all the previous ones looked good, but after flushing, drying and curing, the aroma and taste were consistently undesirable. This crop is even fuller and looking better than any prior, with no yellowing of the leaves, however, I can now only assume it will also turn out tasting like junk. To answer some of the above questionsâ?¦

I add nutrients to the water, and let the solution sit at least overnight, then adjust pH immediately prior to feeding. I also, sometime I donâ??t need too, pH adjust down the well water for watering in between feedings.

I calibrate my pH pen with buffers at the beginning of each month.

Yesterday, I flushed 4 of the 6 plants generously with water, thinking that Iâ??ll leave the other two to see how they fair in the end as an experiment. Iâ??m going to go and flush the other two after posting this, and may do a second flush on the othersâ?¦and maybe another flush just prior to repotting. I do not have and need to obtain new pots in order to repot them, and that will take place in a few days. As Iâ??m starting my seventh week of flowering, Iâ??ll be adding only pH adjusted water when necessary from now to the end.

As Iâ??ve opened and used all of the nutrient containers, except for the AN Big Bud and AN overdrive, I wonâ??t be attempting to return the opened containers. If these flower boosters are not necessary then they are getting returned. I failed to mention that, upon recommendation by the salesperson, I also recently purchased AN Final Phase Clearing Solution to assist in the nutrient flush. I have not opened this container either, and if this is not truly necessary then it is getting returned also.

Now I just have to figure out a decent feeding schedule with the products I have. If anyone can suggest a simple regiment from them, Iâ??d really appreciate it.

Thanks so much!
Scruggs

And Iâ??d take photos, which Iâ??ve never to any plant yet, and upload them to the site for viewing. But for some reason, even after resizing to an appropriate pixel range and file size, I cannot get a custom avatar to upload. So Iâ??m not sure if photos will upload either

The attachment feature comes after a crertain number of posts. Can't remember how many though.

I'd cut back to the base nutrients, and perhaps if opened already, the bottle of micronutrients and a bottle of the calcium/magnesium additive. If you can return them, unsulphered molasses works in their place. (both of 'em)
Perhaps I'd keep the bloom booster, but I'd have to know what was in it before deciding. Some of 'em can be tricky to work with, and can easily be overused.

Too much humic acid kills, and an overloading of beneficial bacteria is not beneficial at all.

Soil probes would be ok if they didn't suck so bad. Not worth the investment if you have a ph pen. You can easily check runoff ph, which is all you wold need the soil probe for anyway. Ph matters greatly. Keep it in range, or lock out nutrients. This includes between-feeding waterings. The lime (a ph buffer) in the potting mix will eventually run-out, so getting into the habit of keeping water in range is a good habit to get into.

Not knowing the product line, I couldn't venture to offer a working schedule. But I'd compare the bottle directions with the online regimen, and see if there is a difference. Often, the weekly dosage on the bottle is given as a stand-alone nutrient...and not part of the whole regimen. Or not.

Waiting for someone to come along and offer a schedule might take a while unless you start another thread asking for the instructions in the title.

Plain old properly ph'd water has never failed me for a flush. No additives necessary for that task.

"Organic" is a marketing tool. Nothing more, nothing less. Plainly put..."organic" chemical compounds are chemical compounds. Period. Same effects on the plants, and same runoff effects on the enviornment. But they get the label, and charge you more for the same compounds. Same goes with organic checkens, organic beef, organic eggs, organic ammonia...

Looks like we got you covered, next grow should be awesome!

I flushed the heck out of the soils yesterday, and when arriving at band practice our mandolin player's wife had alot of large (9.5"dia x 10"deep) pots she was getting rid of (the crop are currently in 7.5" dia x 8" deep pots). I then went straight from there to the Roger Waters concert last night, which I might add was a great show and much more than I expected. Anywhoo...I got the pots and can repot sooner than anticipated...today.

Also, the last effort I flushed twice and at 1.5 and 1 week prior to harvesting. However, the produce still dried and cured having terrible quality. Which now leads me to believe that the plant stored so much nutrients that it could not flush out the majority within that time before cutting. I hope that the effort will not turn out the same, but I do have high hopes after performing the recommendations provided. Which leads me to the next crop...

As far as suggestions for a simple feeding program for the next effort, in my first post I listed the individual nutrients I have, and linked the new HN feeding schedule that I had used. I will most likely soon create another post when I find the correct forum to request suggestions for a feeding program from what I have. However, if I may re-list them and again ask for suggestions (I hope y'all don't mind) from you three as to a simple "flowering" feeding schedule from the below list of nutrients...

Base Nutrients
Botanical Pro Grow (3-2-4) veg and flowering
HN Bloom Natural (0-10-0) flowering
HN Deuce Deuce (0-0-22) flowering

Additives
HN Equilibrium (Ca/Mg supplement) flowering
Organicare Humex (4% humic acid) veg and flowering
HN Flavorful (8% refined humic acid) veg and flowering

Bio-Innoculants
HN Prozyme (80 enzymes) veg and flowering
AN Tarantula (19 bacteria) veg

Root Stimulants
AN Piranha (26 fungi) veg
HN Humboldt Roots (root stimulant) veg

Carboydrates
HN Honey ES (sugars) flowering

Bloom/Flower Enhancers
AN Big Blood (purchased, never used yet)
AN Big Bud Powder
AN Overdrive (purchased, never used yet)

I like the idea of Keep It Simple. From all the nutrient$ I purcha$ed and the time it took to mix them, the thought crossed my mind many times that maybe it didn't have to be that complicated.

The last crop I cut at 12 weeks when the trichomes began to show abundant ambering. It seemed like a longer time than anticipated, maybe because of the over-feeding. Since this is a cross between Diesel and Blueberry, and I read online that the flowering times are 75-80 days and 50-60 days, respectively, I'm not sure what the actual flowering time can be for this cross. Therefore, I'm curious to see when the current ladies indicate they're ready, and especially the next crop that will not be overfed.

Rusty Trichome, WashougalWonder, and polishpollack, thank you very much for taking your time to assist me. You can be sure I'll update this post with results.

Wet root balls fall apart. Let your soil dry before the transplant.

From your list, the stuff I'd keep, are:

Base Nutrients
Botanical Pro Grow (3-2-4) veg and flowering
HN Bloom Natural (0-10-0) flowering

Additives
HN Equilibrium (Ca/Mg supplement) flowering (if already open, may as well use it)
One of the two humic acid products. Either is fine, but should be used once or twice a month, maximum. At least till you get used to using it. I use it after flushes, once a month.

Carboydrates
HN Honey ES (sugars) flowering

Bloom/Flower Enhancers
AN Big Bud Powder

The more stuff you add to your plants, the harder it is to pinpoint the causes of issues. Plus, most of that other stuff is unnecessary under normal growing conditions.