2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Hello everyone,
Thank you for taking the time to open my post and read it, I really appreciate it!
For those of you who do not wish to read the rest of the post, and simply wish to know the problem - TL;DR: I think Marsha and Cindy have a calcium deficiency caused by pH levels locking out nutrients. Testing pH reads 6.8; I have heard differences as to what the pH level should be, but I believe I am in the correct range. Perhaps I need to begin fertilizers?
Background history:
Plants are from bag-seed, germinated via paper towel then placed in Solo cups with slits cut in the bottom for drainage. Soil is Schultz potting soil with some sand mixed in for drainage at the bottom. NPK is 12-9-7 for the soil. Grown under two 20 watt CFLs for about a week, then switched over to two 40 watt CFLs daylight, with one 20 watt CFL (total of 100watts CFL). The 40 watt lights are hung from the ceiling using clamp lamps with chains attached, and the 20 watt other is sitting nearby to give a little bump in light; all these lamps are 2-4" away from the plants and everything seems safe temperature wise, my hands don't feel uncomfortable even within an inch of the lights. My girls (knocks on wood) are receiving 18-6 light cycle. Watering when the soil gets crusty, using reverse osmosis water pH 6.8 - 7.0 by test kit, it's stuff I personally drink with my filtration system. No nutrients at the moment, other than what is already in the soil mix from the bag. Temps in range of 70-80F, humidity is 30-45%, 40% right now. One intake fan, pumping fresh air in from my room which is being fed outside air via air-conditioner. (Everything is staying nice and comfy.) One out take fan that is positioned up high, shooting the old air back into the room to circulate with the new and dissipate. Cindy and Marsha began to look a bit strange as I looked them over as they are growing now. They have one node above the cotyledons, the middle portion of the leaf is stretched out, however the other two are small. On either side of the stem that connects the middle leaf, there are also two more smaller side leaves. Here's a mock up in photoshop (no camera at the moment).Picture: Mockup-Sideview
I transplanted them about two days ago after seeing signs and symptoms of lower leaves beginning to yellow and droop. They're two weeks old at the moment, and I thought they might have been root bound. The larger of the two ladies is sitting pretty in a 1 gallon pot, while the smaller is in a half gallon. I watered them to settle them into their new homes. I'll put them in 3 gallon pots straight away next time after the Solo cup. Live and learn.
Current Happenings:
As I said above, I suspect that pH levels are locking out nutrients from getting to the roots, and they are going through calcium deficiency. I found a few pictures of what my girls bottom leaves right above the cotyledon (which is falling off right now getting brown) are starting to yellow from the tip, and have black smudges across the tips, also they have rusty dots on the leaves in small patches. Here are some example pictures: Picture 1: Rusty Dots, Picture 2: Dark Smudges
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Just finished testing Cindy, she's the worst off at the moment. I poured some water into the pot, until I got a little run-off from it, then took the sample from the reservoir dish. Tested it with the hth kit using 5 drops of phenol red as instructed. Runoff is in the 6.8 - 7.0 range.
Also just tested Marsha, she's better off for now, but showing signs of spotting, and blackening on the leaf tips. The pH runoff for her is the same range. 6.8 - 7.0. Looking at the spots under a magnifying glass they're almost perfectly aligned. I'll show you how it looks with another mockup, better this time!
Pictures: Lower two leaves of BOTH plants (just above the cotyledon) , Marsha's Middle Leaf
Marsha's two lower leaves are yellowing, the middle one showing some spots, and darkening around the serrations. The rest of her leaves look pristine.
Cindy shows worse damage on her lower two leaves that came out after the cotyledon, brown tip is on the end. The rest of her middle leaves have some black tint to them on the serrations.
Is the pH too high at 6.8 - 7.0? I've read that 6.5 is ideal for soil. Is there some other cause perhaps? Hopefully this information helps you to help me! Thanks again for taking the time to read my post.
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
Hello everyone
Hello.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
I have heard differences as to what the pH level should be, but I believe I am in the correct range.
For soil grows (peat based) keep ingoing ph to between 6.3 and 6.8ish. Higher or lower and you'll lock-out specific nutrients.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
Perhaps I need to begin fertilizers?
Too young yet, but they are already being fertilized.
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Originally Posted by Probst
placed in Solo cups with slits cut in the bottom for drainage.
Make sure the slits are large enough to properly drain the water. Consistently saturated soil is a death sentance.
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Originally Posted by Probst
Soil is Schultz potting soil with some sand mixed in for drainage at the bottom.
Sand will retain moisture too well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
NPK is 12-9-7 for the soil.
Wow. Must be the Scotts Potting Soil Plus, huh? (9 month formula?)
Next time go for something with less nutrients. You'll want the control. The nutrients in the mix will fade at about half the time listed, as will the ph buffers. Before you do a final transplant, you'll want a potting mix without all that nitrogen. Check the soil label, and see what other nutrients are in the time-release pellets. you might or might not need an additional source of micronutrients.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
Watering when the soil gets crusty, using reverse osmosis water pH 6.8 - 7.0 by test kit
Should be fine unadjusted, but in flower you'll want a source of calcium. For my source of micronutrients and calcium, I use molasses.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
No nutrients at the moment, other than what is already in the soil mix from the bag.
That's enough for a few cannabis lifetimes.
The art looks like overfertilizing, but could be artistic license.
No camera on your cellphone...? :wtf:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
As I said above, I suspect that pH levels are locking out nutrients from getting to the roots, and they are going through calcium deficiency.
Your stated ph sounds fine, but they are really too young for additional calcium. Usually not necessary till flower, but if it makes you feel better, and since you're using R/O water, I'd add 1/4 tsp of unsulfered molasses per gallon of water, once a week during the growth stage.
The next picture could be from bugs or nutrients. Check the undersides of your leaves for little dots moving around.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
Just finished testing Cindy, she's the worst off at the moment. I poured some water into the pot, until I got a little run-off from it, then took the sample from the reservoir dish. Tested it with the hth kit using 5 drops of phenol red as instructed. Runoff is in the 6.8 - 7.0 range.
Isn't that a pool water test kit? Since the results are color-coded, any tinting of the water will skew results.
Isn't that last picture from one of the many troubleshooting charts? (looks familiar)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
Is the pH too high at 6.8 - 7.0? I've read that 6.5 is ideal for soil. Is there some other cause perhaps? Hopefully this information helps you to help me! Thanks again for taking the time to read my post.
Your ph should be fine. Check the soil's ingredients for ph buffers like lime or limestone.
Your plants will either adapt, or they won't. But the barrage of nutrients won't go away. I do know that with the Mitracle Grow 6 month, the N-P-K is 0.21 - 0.07 - 0.14, with .06 of that nitrogen is for immediate release. This means, at least with the Miracle Grow, you can flush some of the nitrogen before adding your ladies to the soil. But over time, you'll still get that slow release of the remainder.
It wouldn't hurt to contact Scotts, and ask them about the N-P-K. I'd ask them if the number listed is based on a time-weighted average over a week? 10 days...? two weeks... a month...?
But I'd make sure the slits in the cups were large enough to do the job, ditch the sand at the bottom. Rocks are fine as they don't hold water. Or, you could do like I do, and add nothing to the bottoms of the pot, but I put a layer of rocks in the drip tray. (raises the pot out of the runoff)
Not much you can do about the overfertilizing, except choose a different soil mix.
Good luck, hope this helps.
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Thanks so much for your reply!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Must be the Scotts Potting Soil Plus, huh? (9 month formula?)
Yes, Schultz Soil Plus 9 Month. I thought that it might have been the timed release soil as well. I second guessed myself after I purchased and planted them, but they sprang right up and began to grow, so I figured full steam ahead. Mixing the soil and buying every ingredient was a little intimidating at the time. Next time I'll do differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Isn't that last picture from one of the many troubleshooting charts? (looks familiar)
Nope, all done in photoshop by my hand. The actual pictures however were from another forum post elsewhere that had leaves similar to mine. THIS is the original.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
No camera on your cellphone...?
I have a camera on my cellphone, 3 mega pixels. I don't have a way of getting my pictures from my phone to my computer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
The next picture could be from bugs or nutrients. Check the undersides of your leaves for little dots moving around.
No bugs in sight, other than a few misquotes here and there. Before I started growing I had a thorough exterminator pest control check. They went through and sprayed pyrethran EVERYWHERE. No visible spots on the underside other than a few specks of dirt that was easily brushed away. Most likely the nutrients.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
Isn't that a pool water test kit?
Yes, it is. I was told it would work just fine. Should I get a different kit? I don't have the funds at the moment for an electronic pH tester.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusty Trichome
But I'd make sure the slits in the cups were large enough to do the job, ditch the sand at the bottom.
Yeah, everything was great in the cups, good drainage and all even with the sand. Next time I'm going to invest in different soil, and rocks instead of sand. Right now they're sitting in a 1 gallon pot for the larger girl and a half gallon pot for the smaller.
Any suggestions as to what exactly I should do? Replant with different soil maybe?
Thanks again!
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
I tried mixing my own. It's not difficult, but it is a pain in the rear. I'm not one to waste resources, but I still have a quarter of a bale of peat moss and half a bale of perlite, a bag of garden lime and shitloads worm castings sitting around. So much easier going with a quality mix to begin with. But likely I'll use some of those ingredients to adjust the Miracle Grow 6 month I'm in right now. (which, I don't recommend for beginners)
I use an aquarium ph test kit, which does the same thing as the pool kit. Both are un-usable for nutrient-tinted or runoff water. But using a commercial potting mix, the buffering they add usually lasts about 6 to 8 weeks. Normaly I use a ph pen, but recently I dropped it and cracked the housing. Not waterproof any more. :mad:
I'd start looking for another potting soil soon, and transplant asap. I'd avoid Supersoil though. I recently was forced to try it, and had inconsistent buffering, and there's no perlite in it to 'lighten' the soil structure which allows proper drainage. Plus, it has chunks of wood and bark that once you get 'em saturated with water, retain that moisture waaaay too long. (not a good thing for cannabis roots) Try and find one that's not so heavy-handed with the nutrients, if possible. Best case is to fine one that isnt pre-ferted, but has ph buffers and perlite. That way, you are the one in control of the nutrients.
But if you go this route, (non time-release soil) you'll need a solid nutrient system. I use a 3-part nutrient system, and their website has a weekly application chart. Almost too easy to fail. :thumbsup:
(Fox Farms, btw)
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Wow, thank you so much Rusty! That was a lot of helpful information! I'll try to get my hands on the supplies you suggest at the gardening store. They have indoor growing lamps, hydro sets, and the like; so I would assume they have all of the soil too.
I was doing some reading over at 420Magazine and I found this snippet from a forum post.
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Originally Posted by 420Magazine Forum Post
Now for having too much nitrogen in your growing mediums or soil. The plant will have like an overall DARK green look and have delayed maturity. Due to Nitrogen being involved in vegetative growth, to much nitrogen will result in tall plants with weak stems. New growth will be very lively and plant transpiration will be high, but not always. Nitrogen toxicity can be seen when there are very very dry conditions almost as if there was a drought, which may show a burning effect. If you give your plants ammonium based nutrients they may show NH4+ toxicity, which will show a smaller plant growth and lesions that occur on stems and roots, leaf margins that will roll downward. Also the big fan leaves will have ??the claw? look. The tips will point down but the leaves will stay up as if when you bend your fingers downwards. Leaves can be twisted when growing? mainly new growths. Roots will be under developed along with the slowing of flowering. Yields will be decreased, because to much nitrogen in early stages of flowering slows down bud growth. Water uptake is slowing down from the vascular breakdown of the plants as well. Too much potassium and nitrogen will lock out calcium as well.
Is there a certain way to transplant to a new soil without utterly destroying the girls? I assume pull them out and try to get the soil off the roots without damaging them too much, maybe flush the soil too?
You have been so helpful thus far, I figured you would know the best way. I'll be transplanting them to 3 gallon pots most likely this time.
Thanks again, Rusty! :thumbsup:
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
They have indoor growing lamps, hydro sets, and the like; so I would assume they have all of the soil too.
Stay away from those spotlight/flood grow lamps. They put-out more heat than lumens. CFL's and/or HID lighting is best overall. Fluoro tubes (shop lights) as a last resort.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
I was doing some reading over at 420Magazine and I found this snippet from a forum post.
Wow...they're still online...? :wtf: <kidding>
I learned to grow using Miracle Grow products, and can verify that parts of that snippet are quite accurate. The nitrogen will deepen the green, add stretch, and can malform the leaves. But part of what the post was describing was a ph drop, not botanical nitrogen narcosis.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
Is there a certain way to transplant to a new soil without utterly destroying the girls? I assume pull them out and try to get the soil off the roots without damaging them too much, maybe flush the soil too?
If you can't flush the nutrients (which you can't with time-release formula's) just transplant into a pot of the new soil. If you'r in too large of a container already, you might want to considder removing some of the soil from the rootball. Likely your rootball isn't 'overformed' yet, and most of the soil will just fall away during a normal transplant.
But if the roots are well-formed and holding the shape of the pot, I'm going to tell you how I'd do it, but use extreme care. Likely this step isn't necessary, unless it is an emergency.
First, fill a bucket half-full of warm, properly ph'd water.
Second, perpare your new pot and soil. Leave more room for the roots than you think you'll need.
Third, gently remove rootball from the pot, and ease it (the rootball, not the whole plant) into the warm water. Once rootball has absorbed all the water it wants, very gently 'massage' the loose stuff, and whatever will easily fall-away from the roots. Aggression will kill your ladies, so do not be aggressive. Pull the plant out, and as you are holding the base of the trunk at the level you want it, (an inch from the top, be careful as saturated soil can weigh-down the roots causing stretching and breakage)
Keep holding it there with one hand, start adding soil with the other. (hang' the roots into the pot as you are gently adding potting soil.) 'Fan out' the roots in the bottom of the pot, and add soil as best you can in and around the roots.
From there, I fill the pot, gently tamp it down, fill it again, gently tamp it down again. Water-in the transplant, and fill voids with more soil. This will leave you with about 2 inches of room at the top of the rootball. Fill to within 1 inch of the top of the pot, but leave room for watering. Tiz ok to bury an inch or two of stem to raise the soil level to where you want it.
At two weeks, a 3 gallon pot is too big. I go from 2-cup seedling cups, to one gallon nursery pots, to 2 gallon nursery pots, to 5 gallon pots, but only once rootball is developed enough for the transplant. In my experience, too much rootspace detracts from foliar growth and development. (use the right size tool for the job)
And remember...One "oops" wipes-out a thousand "atta-boy's". (use care)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Probst
You have been so helpful thus far, I figured you would know the best way.
Tiz why they pay me the big bucks. :D
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
All I can say is WOW! Thank you so much Rusty! :Bows down:
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Just sharing my experiences. No need for bowing down, but I appreciate it, lol.
Good luck with 'em, and have some patience. ;)
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Alright, did as you suggested and transplanted. A lot of the soil fell away and some of the roots became visible in the small shape the soil was held. I massaged a decent amount of soil away, so the roots are holding in an area a little less than a solo cup. I purchased some soil without any nutes in it at the gardening store, as well as some neem spray. I misted my plants with the spray (no more than twice).. Things seemed to go okay, so I have my fingers crossed that I won't see any more damage other than a little signs of stress from the intesnse transplant. The soil that my larger plant is sitting in right now is Fertilome Ultimate Potting Mix.
Quote:
Fertilome Ultimate Potting Mix is For People Who Love Flowers. This is great stuff. Stays light and fluffy and still holds on to water. Use it for all your container plantings and mix it in the soil to improve soil quality. Contains: Spagnum Peat Moss, Perlite, Wetting Agent and Slow Release Humic Acids. Fertilome potting mix is a sterile, uniform material that gardeners have relied upon for years. Fertilome can be used for planting house plants, hanging baskets, patio pots, and vegetables. It can be economically used as an amendment in vegetable and flower beds. It is not available as an organic product. Native Roots carries Fertilome potting soil in 10 quart to 3 cubic foot bags.
Here is a picture of the bag: Fertilome Soil
2Week old plants, curling, spotting, yellowing
Sounds like a quality mix to me. :thumbsup:
But is it buffered to a neutral ph? Does it say anywhere if there's limestone or limestone dust added? (the most common ph buffering additives) If it's not buffered, ph will quickly dive.
An e-mail to the company asking about the ph would answer this, if it's not listed on the label.
