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Finally got to see the documentary tonight. It makes me angry the way we treat our most vulnerable people in our country. There is not one legitimate reason why there shouldn't be universal healthcare in this country. Its just about greed like it always is in this country. If somebody can get rich of other peoples misery or fear they're going to do it. Don't hear any of the presidential candidates discussing this issue. And would probably be the one reason I wouldn't vote for Ron Paul.
It's definitely the best of Michael Moore's documentaries. Given my struggles with Cancer, and dealing with insurance companies, I know first-hand how much of a pain in the ass they are to deal with before getting treatment, during treatment and afterwards. I don't know why it didn't get more attention. But the core of the movie, how they treat people that don't have insurance, and even ones that do, the struggles they go through, are completely accurate.
They are a few inaccuracies with the documentary, especially the part with the free laundry in France. This is actually a paid service provided by the government, it isn't free.
Don't know much about Ron Paul, but isn't he fairly libertarian? Not too likely to be for universal health care I would think. Maybe I'm wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by killerweed420
Anyway, I agree we do need to get a way to finance universal health care.
Why should healthy people have to pay for people who choose to smoke and eat unhealthy foods? Without government regulations a free market would make for better competition between insurance providers. Public welfare is a joke and just allows government more control on your personal life. If Ron is elected and eliminates the IRS that would mean an extra $150~ a week in my paycheck, and thats just what I pay to federal, not state, more then enough to cover the cost of health care and personal investments in retirement.Quote:
Originally Posted by killerweed420
The people who brought us our broken social security system and Medicare now want to bring us health care. :(
First there is no problem with social security or medicare.Don't believe all the right wing hype. All it needs is a small increase in your withholding foe SSI. Have you ever looked at how little they hold out for this?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimzum
Second,in this day and age if we all live long enough no matter what you think is health food we will get cancer.There is no such thing as health food unless you can afford to eat 100% organic food.The ranchers,farmers and processors have been killing us for decades. They are still using low level radioactive wastes to grow crops!! It makes them grow so big and look so pretty.lol And HMO's are so expensive.$500 a month per person,family of 4 $2000. I don't know of many average households than can afford this.Just cut out the middle man in health care and there will plenty of money for healthcare for all of us.
Why omit to say "why should I pay for anyone faulty genetics?" Not all conditions are attributed by smoking and eating unhealthy food. Living a healthy lifestyle does not guarantee you'll be disease-free. The system you propose would only benefit those that have perfect genetics, or lucky enough to have secure employment so one can maintain there benefits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zimzum
Why give power to insurance companies to deny benefits to anyone that had preexisting conditions? So they can profit more, so they don't have to pay for that person's treatment? You run into ethical dilemmas. Even with insurance, families get bankrupt because one person is sick, and insurance companies refuse to pay for their treatment.
We have the military, roads, schools socialized. It'll work for health care as well. I grew up in Europe with the belief the government is responsible for the overall welfare of it's citizens. Otherwise, what is the purpose of government? Get rid of the special interest crap, and they'll be plenty of money available for health care. Countries far smaller and poorer are able to pull off socialized health care.
Dude... WTF are you talking about.... I did 22 years in the military with the promise of free medical and dental for the rest of my life. I am *STILL* waiting for what was promised, as are millions of other military retirees.Quote:
Originally Posted by killerweed420
If they can't live up to the contractual obligations that were promised to the military, what makes you think they are going to do it for John Q. Public???
I agree.There is no excuse.But HMO's are every bit as bad and probably worse.There definitely needs to be some sort of oversite for universal healthcare. I think the difference though is that it should be "universal". If you need to see a doctor you see a doctor period.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mississippi Steve
this is where i would normally go running off into the woods laughing hysterically, but i'll try to curb my giggling long enough to type this. social security is a pyramid scheme, dependent on a constant growth in population to support itself. though well intentioned, it is a system doomed to failure. at some point population growth must taper off and the amount being paid out will exceed the amount being paid in. unless it is propped up by a perpetually booming economy or we are willing to tax future generations into the poor house there is no way for such a plan to work in the long run.Quote:
Originally Posted by killerweed420
or maybe you are one of those who believe that we just don't pay enough taxes. maybe we should hike the tax rate up to fifty or sixty percent to help pay for our government's inefficiency. do you really hate the middle-class that much? the poor are already poor and the rich will always be able to find a loop-hole, but the middle-class will once again bear the brunt of yet another short-sighted do-gooder program.
and we all know how well these things work. the military is the only thing these idiots seem to be able to get right. our infrastructure is crumbling, public schooling is laughable and social security is a faulty pyramid scheme, so let's let the government destroy health care too. i admire your faith in the government, but i fear it is a bit misplaced. the inefficiency of our massive bureaucracy is legendary and now we are supposed to trust them with billions more dollars and hope they can manage a health care system without killing us all?Quote:
Originally Posted by thcbongman
the us was built on the idea that the private sector is far more capable of running business than any government and this has been proven to be true. as long as a significant amount of power is left in private hands our liberty remains intact. it is a simple fact that not everyone can have access to the best of everything, the american dream is not something that is just handed out but must be worked for. life may be guaranteed; not a long life nor a good life, just a life. with minor governmental oversight private health care can be made to work, but that doesn't seem to be good enough for those who feel that everyone is entitled to everything they want.
this culture of entitlement will hand us all over to a totalitarian order far faster than anything else - short of a military coup. each time we hand over a bit more of our control to some faceless bureaucracy we lose a little more freedom and take another step down the road to the sort of slavery this country was built to avoid. these huge corporations that y'all rail against are not the enemy, they are the manifestation of the freedoms this country was built upon. they are the outcome of the work of the people and they thrive only when they meet the needs of the people unless they are propped up by the corruption of government and/or the laziness of consumers.
we seem to have reached the point where everyone feels entitled to be treated fairly. fairness is an illusion, there will always be those who try to take advantage. far too often folks will haphazardly make uninformed choices and when things don't go their way they will scream for justice or for the government to step in and help them out. government was not meant to protect us from ourselves. vigilance in our everyday dealings is needed and hard work is necessary in order for us to thrive. those who want someone to wipe their noses for them whenever they have the sniffles or to make the bullies leave them alone had best grow up, because living is for adults and the best of life is for those who are willing to put in the work it takes to get it.
i realize that such rants as this may seem a bit harsh and uncaring, but the simple fact is that i'm tired of being told what i can or must do. i'm tired of being made to pay for the mistakes and the stupidity of others in the name of the greater good. charity should be voluntary and there are many who are in need of our charity in this world, but forced charity is just a way of enslaving those who, through luck and/or hard work, have managed to accumulate enough to feel a certain level of comfort. we are forced to subsidize a massive bureaucracy that cares nothing for our well-being and when someone comes along and says we must increase the size of that bureaucracy i can't help but wonder what sort of insanity these people are laboring under. it must be a strange and wonderful madness that leads them to believe that the mistakes of the past, when repeated, will yield anything but the same miserable results.
The truth is there is plenty of money to go around to help pay for social security,medical care for everyone. Is social security a pyramid scheme? Of sorts,but the costs of the SSI are so low it'll easily survive for decades and probably more.Privatizing health care? We've already seen where that got us.Run away costs with run away greed. I would rather that health care is started at the state level first rather than nationally. I think it could be controlled a little better at the local level and states could try different systems to see what works the best.
In a country as rich as ours is there is no excuse for us not to help our most poor and vulnerable citizens. It just boils down to our own selfish and greedy behaviour. Its our fault. We need to care enough to force changes.