How long does my liver have?

[mrdevious]

I've been really getting concerned about my liver, since it must be in the same shape as an alcoholic's. I mean, I'm only 21 (almost 22) and have been taking huge amounts of painkillers for 5 years. So I was wondering if anybody has an idea of how much a liver can take?

For the first 4 years I was taking an average of 500mg accetaminophen (tylenol), 200mg celebrix, and 600mg ibeprophen a day. Since my pain got worse, I've stepped it up a notch. In the past half-year I've been taking 650mg acetaminophen with 75mg Tramadol twice a week, with the 200mg celebrix a day.

Now in the past month with my pain levels worse than ever, I'm taking 1,300mg acetaminophen, 150mg Tramadol, and 200mg celebrix every day (plus smoking the weed, it's great for the leg and arm pain, not so much for the back and neck). It's still not enough, but the docs won't give me anything stronger so what can one do really... So how much more of a beating can my liver take before it finally fails, going at this rate? With my pain levels I don't see how I can reduce the meds, and it pisses me off how the pharmacuetical companies force you to take liver-killing acetaminophen with every damn med whether you need it or not.

Believe me, I've tried not to take the painkillers, but I just can't seem to do it. I made a new years resolution to quit the meds, and after 2 1/2 days of incredible pain that grew exponentially, I finally went back to it realizing there's no way I could live in that much pain.

Also, does anybody know some methods for making my liver healthier? A cleansing method perhapse? So far I'm takin a stuff called "Liv-tone" with a bunch of herbal extracts, and I've heard of drinking lemon jiuce as a cleanser. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated, especially on how much longer my liver might have.

[notransfer]

jesus.....

ask for vicodin...or oxy?...or valium...?

somethin without ace.

[Polymirize]

I know several people who drink lemon juice along with cayenne pepper as a cleanse while fasting...

But I don't know how effective it might be if you're still taking all the pills... Have you considered talking to a nutritionist?

[FakeBoobsRule]

Celebrex and IBU are cleared by the kidneys and not the liver. 1300 mg of tylenol is well withing the daily maximum limits without causing liver damage. I would have to look up tramadol but that is a small dose too.

If you are concerned, then you can go get a liver function test which measures liver enzyme activity through bloodwork. If these enzymes are not elevated then you are safe.

You really should blame your doctor for not givng you something stronger and not the pharmaceutical industry. If your pain is that bad you may want to see a pain management doctor who are more comfortable with giving you narcotics.

[birdgirl73]

Lots of naturopathic liver-healing/cleansing approaches employ chlorophyll, the green part of plants, essentially, in various forms, but the real scientific data on how effective that is is sketchy at best. (Do a Google search on "chlorophyll and liver" and read what you see.). The best way to heal a liver, assuming it's not infected with a virus or with cancer is to eat a balanced diet, avoid harmful medicines and alcohol, exercise, and allow it to "detoxify" (that word always makes me suspicious when I read it) itself. The liver's an amazing and resilient organ, and, as Fake Boobs told you, liver function and liver enzyme bloodwork will tell you exactly where it stands healthwise.

[Storm Crow]

Milk thistle is supposed to be a liver tonic. It used to be used in cases of liver failure due to eating poisonous mushrooms. You can get it at any health food store or at Puritan's Pride, on line. - Granny:hippy:

[surreys princess]

how about asking your doctor?

i am not trying to be difficult, but i think your dr can answer this and make any changes and suggestions better than any of us, who dont know you....

just my two cents...

[FakeBoobsRule]

I think your liver isn't in as bad of shape as you think. Some general liver health tips also include the milk thistle like someone else mention as well as selenium and magnesium. A low fat diet is good for the liver as well as overall health and you can also increase the amount of soluble fiber in your diet too.

[mrdevious]

Cool, thanks for all the replies everybody. At least it doesn't sound like I'm on the verge of imminent death.

It seems most people aren't familiar with Tramadol, so a little info:

It's a synthetic opiod analgesic. It's mechanism is that of a partial morphine receptor agonist. This means it works the same way as morphine, but it's only 10% as strong because only about 10% of the tramadol manages to bind to the morphine receptors.


jesus.....

ask for vicodin...or oxy?...or valium...?

somethin without ace.

Believe me, I would LOVE it if i could get oxycontin, morphine, vicodin, any of that. Oxy and Vic do still have acetaminophen, but at that strength I'd only have to take 1 pill's worth rather than 4; not to mention I'd actually get more than half-assed sorta/kinda pain relief. But, the problem is nerve damage in my spine and since they're still trying to figure out exactly what is going on (not holding my breath on that one), I don't have a clear diagnosis. And since I don't have a nice neat label for my condition, no significantly strong opiate painkillers for me. I'm considering changing doctors though, maybe someone else would be more accomodating.



I know several people who drink lemon juice along with cayenne pepper as a cleanse while fasting...

I think I'll try that, thanks Poly.


But I don't know how effective it might be if you're still taking all the pills... Have you considered talking to a nutritionist?

No, but I've talked to every other health professional under the sun and I'm very knowledgeable about nutrition myselfl; IE. I constantly research nutrition and learn new things, study methods for healing etc. Not that anything has really worked...but then I've tried anything and everything, so I don't really expect to find a means of getting better anymore.


Celebrex and IBU are cleared by the kidneys and not the liver. 1300 mg of tylenol is well withing the daily maximum limits without causing liver damage. I would have to look up tramadol but that is a small dose too.

That's good to hear... kinda, but I hope my kindney's are good now. 1,300 is within liver tolerance, but it can cause liver failure at only 2,500. The reason 1,300 is still of great concern is because those doses are based on acute levels, not prolonged daily administration.


The best way to heal a liver, assuming it's not infected with a virus or with cancer is to eat a balanced diet, avoid harmful medicines and alcohol, exercise, and allow it to "detoxify" (that word always makes me suspicious when I read it) itself.

Good advice birdgirl, but nothing I don't already do. Thanks anyway.


how about asking your doctor?

i am not trying to be difficult, but i think your dr can answer this and make any changes and suggestions better than any of us, who dont know you....

Ugh, but unfortunately doctors seem to be indoctrinated with the belief that tylenol by the pound is just all-super-healthy. They all seem to think it's no concern at all, and one even told me to just load up on it when I can manage without the Tramadol (which is never). While doctors may be experts in the medical field, they still have to keep up with up-coming research and keep learning. I've met doctors who knew less about Tramadol, nutrition, and a few other things than me. I'm not trying to be conceited either, this is information I've learned from specialists and papers from accredited research institutions.


Anywhoo, even if I'm not taking toxic doses, it's still a big concern since I'm 21 and it seems I'm never going to get better. I mean I can't expect to live to, lets say 81, by taking daily doses of all these pain meds for 60 years. Frankly I think it would be healthier if I could just get strait opium or morphine and take it in smaller-medium doses, without all the added stuff.

[mrdevious]

Oh, and also does anybody know how addictive Tramadol is? Are there some signs of addiction I should look for? All my docs say is that it has a lower potential than other opiates, but it's there. Again I take 150mg a day. Incredibly I've been able to find nothing conclusive about this on the web.

[surreys princess]

there is a great scientific/medical search engone called SCIRUS....maybe you can find some info there...i often find things there i cant find on google, or vice versa...

[robert42]

this may or may not interest you:

Erowid Experience Vaults: Tramadol (& occasional benzodiazepines) - Part 3: 3 Months Heavy Use & Withdrawal - 40106 (http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=40106)
Tramadol - Addiction Forum (http://www.medhelp.org/forums/addiction/messages/30264a.html)

some symptoms of withdrawel i beleive are: horrible dreams, anxiety attacks, memory problems, insomnia, pains,chills,restless feet, rolling around in bed

info on the web is pretty shitty i agree, other info suggests its more phycologygically (sp?) addictive then physical, but overall its pretty addictive

[FakeBoobsRule]

Believe me, I would LOVE it if i could get oxycontin, morphine, vicodin, any of that. Oxy and Vic do still have acetaminophen, but at that strength I'd only have to take 1 pill's worth rather than 4
Actually, Oxycontin has no tylenol in it. Oxycontin is a 2 phase dose of oxycodone alone. They say it is a continous release (hence the name, OXYcodone CONTINuous release) but it really releases half of the dose within 30 minutes of taking it and then the other half is released around 4-6 hours later, depending on the person. Percocet and Tylox contain oxycodone and tylenol. Percodan contains oxycodone and aspirin. All hydrocodone preparations contain tylenol but in varying degrees depending on the brand name or generic used. Norco usually has the lowest amount of tylenol while Lortab is middle of the road and Vicodin and Lorcet usually have the higher amounts of tylenol.


That's good to hear... kinda, but I hope my kindney's are good now. 1,300 is within liver tolerance, but it can cause liver failure at only 2,500. The reason 1,300 is still of great concern is because those doses are based on acute levels, not prolonged daily administration.
Just because something is metabolized or eliminated by your kidneys doesn't mean it is going to damage them. Celebrex and IBU are very safe drugs when it comes to your kidneys. Celebrex is a Cox-2 inhibitor and was designed to increase safety as well as reduce gastro-intestinal side effects. Many drugs in the NSAID (non-steriodal anti-inflammatory drugs) class such as Voltaren or Lodine or Naprosyn work great for the pain but can cause stomach sensitivity if taken for long periods of time. There is almost zero incidence of stomach problems with Celebrex. IBU is a NSAID but it is still very gentle on the stomach.

Going back to the tylenol and the liver, actually the longer you take tylenol, the easier it is on the liver in many cases. Like Birdgirl said the liver is a very strong and resilient organ. I am sure you are aware that hydrocodone is abused by many people and I know of people who at the height of their abuse have taken nearly 100 sometimes 150 pills a day. That is easily enough tylenol (30-100 grams depending on the type of hydrocodone and how many) to cause death but with prolonged use the liver finds new metabolic pathways to eliminate tylenol from the body. You would think that those that have abused hydrocodone for long periods of time would have livers that look like swiss cheese but that is usually not the case.

Tramadol was brought to market as a painkiller with a lower potential for abuse. Most people do not abuse it but there is a potential for abuse. It is not physically addictive however. Just because you take it for long periods of time doesn't mean you will abuse it or become addicted to it. As far as signs of abuse or addiction, if it is interferring with your life or you become obsessed with tramadol, then those would be glaring signs. It is hard to say what the signs are because if you use it the way you are supposed to and you are not predisposed for addiction (such as family history of addiction or alcoholism) then there is not much to look for.




.

[realgood]

hey mr devious, Are you familiar with the Life Extension Foundation ? Life Extension Foundation - Highest Quality Vitamins And Supplements (http://www.lef.org) you might find their website of interest. They have a really great article on the supplement SAM-e and it's benefits for healing the liver and over all function. Le Magazine, June 1997 - Report: Same Part 3: The Liver Super-Nutrient (http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag97/june-report972.html) I take the stuff myself for mood but it really is remarkable how much healthier I just feel over all while taking it. It is also being looked into for its anti cancerous benefits/arthritis and joint benefits. Overall good stuff. Wish ya luck figuring out the root of the pain.

[lazy smoker7]

You know I realy hate tramadol.. I was taking alot of tramadol for some pains in my neck a while back and the tramadol was some how hurting my liver or sumtin but after taking so much tramadol I was getting these weird pains on the sides of my body.... actually now that i think about it it wasnt pure tramadol ... so maybe thats better than what i was taking... but i was taking tramacet wich also has an extra dose of acepetomain (dunno spelling) which i think was causing the problems...

[medicinal]

Not trying to be a smart ass here, but the best pain reliever is morphine or Heroin. People can live for years on managed doses. The real problem is getting regulated doses. The street drug will eleviate the pain, but you never know what your getting. Too bad Dr.s don't have compassion for this type of pain. You almost have to be dead from Cancer to get this drug when a regulated dose of morphine would work well for this pain and leave your liver and kidneys in good shape. There is always the possibility of addiction, but what is worse addiction or the pain. Anyway, it's a thought. I'm 66 years old, so if I had a huge amount of pain, I'd go to the street and get my relief. The thing would be, to control the desire for the high that goes with it. I've been around junkies and they put H ahead of everything else in their life. they would and have stolen from family members, robbed and done atrocious things to get their fixes. I'd have to say, don't get hooked on the high, @ 21, you have a lot of life left. A friend of mine became addicted to oxycontin after a whiplash injury that wouldn't go away. The pain was so bad that after he went cold turkey to get off the oxy., he killed himself and his 10 year old daughter and 80 year old mother, blew their heads off, then blew his off.

[NewbiePacker]

1,300mg acetaminophen, will fuckin kill the liver in the long run....I tell everyone dont take the shit peroid.....

And who ever said Valium is not a pain killer at all.............