Outsourcing Jobs and USA's Greed

[Dr.Hashman]

People in the United States (and more importantly, my mom) are getting fed up with outsourcing jobs to places like India and China. I asked her this when she went off on a nice 10 minute rant about how letting Virgin Airlines into the US commercial flight industry, "Do you support hunger in India and China?"

What I mean by question is money/wealth is being stored up in the US and that is why we have a high standard of living. In India and China (Not the high-tech commercial parts) there is not much of a middle class. You are either the owner or the worker. There are not alot of jobs and wealth going around those countries and people do not have purchasing power to buy food. When the US outsources jobs to India and China, people are getting paid from the US's money and they are spending their money locally.

So why are people mad at outsourcing? People in the US are losing jobs, and the US's wealth is going down. But at the same time someone in India or China is getting a job and is getting money so they can buy food and support their family. The United States living conditions are going to go down slightly, but the living conditions in other nations are going to increase. Any loss of living condition will make someone mad and want to regain their previous standard, it is natural. So the USA is being greedy with their living standard and not wanting to share it.

I could be very wrong very easily, but I think that outsourcing jobs promotes equal living conditions throughout the world.

[Thepossumdance]

its becaues people who live in the United States are for the most part not socialists and support capitalism and therefore would rather keep their standard of living higher even at the cost of a random foriegner who they will never meet... it seems relatively obvious? i mean unless ur a huge socialist how could u possibly love this?

I dont think you are wrong I think you are very correct in your conclusion... however, I as well as most of America does not want to sacrafice our lifestyle for people I honestly dont give a fuck about...

[Dr.Hashman]

<<<===== I am Mr. FreeTrade. I want no government intervention and would like to see this world turn into a capitalist world (with 1 socialist country to put all the bitching people in).

[Thepossumdance]

dude be honest... you picked up some fuckin fat nugz didnt ya...

[Diary of a Madman]

People in the United States (and more importantly, my mom) are getting fed up with outsourcing jobs to places like India and China. I asked her this when she went off on a nice 10 minute rant about how letting Virgin Airlines into the US commercial flight industry, "Do you support hunger in India and China?"

etc..........



(VOMITS ALL OVER LAP)

YOU MUST BE HIGH AS FUCK.

You say very matter of factly "well you see, wealth is stored up in the U.S." like we just woke up one day and were greedy and ruling the world. George Bush is in a vault somewhere with the 7 Jew bankers that run the world and we are keeping the money all to ourselves and laughing as the poor die. America is rich from it's free market economy over the past 250 years. Notice FREE as in low taxes, not highly regulated, wealth not being distributed out among who the government wants to buy votes from. So, great great great great great etc. grandpa and his employees busted ass, passed on their trades and savings to there loved ones, and over time, like a big savings account, we have grown.

Now, to feel good about ourselves, we are supposed to give the money in our wallets to other countries whose generations of way more than our 250 years of civilization, cant hack it? Im not some crazy redneck getting all pissed off at them, but I prefer to keep it myself. Besides, I have way more faith in myself having the money, because I know that I can do the best for ME. Im not going to say, "oh, China needs my money, so there gov. can take half the money, execute Christians and Buddhists, kill unwanted female babies, run over college kids with tanks, and beat your dog to death in front of you when you are walking it because there is a rabies scare in your neighborhood.

Define greed for me. This is the real world. Life or death. No one gives a fuck about you from some other country. America gives more charity (cash or what the fuck ever) to the world by far than any other countries combined. FACT.

PEACE

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I think the reason people get angry in the US is because it's not the very rich whose standard of living is going down. Those fucks still have their money. The jobs that are being outsourced are the jobs of the regular Joes and Sallys, people like you and me. I'm having a hell of a time getting a crappy administrative position that pays 14.00/hr. My fiance works for a major computer corporation who has outsourced its entire dispatching division to Costa Rica, because they can pay them 6 bucks an hour, instead of the 10 they'd have to pay a US worker. In the meantime, my fiance hasn't seen a raise in 6 years. Nobody in his district has, despite posting 24 BILLION in profits THIS FISCAL QUARTER ALONE.

I have a college education. My fiance has 2 BS in very high tech fields.

I'm not surprised US workers are tired of footing the bill for the rest of the world. Our gov't and big business are running a train on us.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Sorry about the DP.

Question for you Dr. H.

Do you think your mother is just being greedy and bogarting her "stored wealth"? Do you think she has an unreasonably high standard of living? Or has she busted her ass to get where she is?

[Diary of a Madman]

Sorry about the DP.

Question for you Dr. H.

Do you think your mother is just being greedy and bogarting her "stored wealth"? Do you think she has an unreasonably high standard of living? Or has she busted her ass to get where she is?

great question.

My mother's job was outsourced to India and she was pissed off. But I told her thats the free market. However you are in lolla land with this whole lay down and die so someone else can live crap. You must have a low self esteem. You are just as good if not better than those you want your money handed to.

AND my roomate is an Indian! so Im just pointing out, I am neutral on the topic, but can the global socialism.

[Breukelen advocaat]

(VOMITS ALL OVER LAP)

YOU MUST BE HIGH AS FUCK.

You say very matter of factly "well you see, wealth is stored up in the U.S." like we just woke up one day and were greedy and ruling the world. George Bush is in a vault somewhere with the 7 Jew bankers that run the world and we are keeping the money all to ourselves and laughing as the poor die. America is rich from it's free market economy over the past 250 years.
PEACE
Nice to see that he spelled "Jew" with a capital "J". After all, he's letting us in on the big secret about them, so this must be presented as serious business - it's not exactly the story of the 7 dwarfs, you know.

[medicinal]

I'm not surprised US workers are tired of footing the bill for the rest of the world. Our gov't and big business are running a train on us.
__________________Now there's a factual statement if ever there were. It is the corporations and government (one in the same) that are the benefactors in globalization. The US workers are the ones taking the hits. anyone that can't see this is blinded by the lies being told us by the afore mentioned (Governments and corporations). maybe we should enact a new word. Corporments, or goverations, one in the same!

[Bong30]

Jobs are being out sourced....for company greed. Having to answer to stock holders. That one concern is the bottom line. Its bullshit. Some Out sourcing in a global market is one thing, but everyone jumping ship and running to other countrys and pay them 10% of what an American worker will work for....

Lower cost of labor

Price of Product or service remains the same

More money for the corperations......

we are not only outsourcing....we are INSOURCING....illegal imagration.

we are getting it from all sides...if the middle class can make it, it will be a miricle..

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Jobs are being out sourced....for company greed. Having to answer to stock holders. That one concern is the bottom line. Its bullshit. Some Out sourcing in a global market is one thing, but everyone jumping ship and running to other countrys and pay them 10% of what an American worker will work for....

Lower cost of labor

Price of Product or service remains the same

More money for the corperations......

we are not only outsourcing....we are INSOURCING....illegal imagration.

we are getting it from all sides...if the middle class can make it, it will be a miricle..
I usually stay out of the political forums, and I'm not generally in agreement with you Bong, but you've nailed it this time.

[Fengzi]

As usual, most folks really have no idea what they are talking about. Outsourcing is not as bad as people think it is, in fact, there are a great number of advantages that people don't see.

The U.S currently has a 4.6% unemployment rate, which basically means full employment. In other words, that 4.6% is largely made up of people who probably wouldn't want a job if you were to give it to them. Don't get exited, I'm not saying the entire 4.6% falls into that catagory, but a pretty good portion of them.

So, it's not like we have millions of people out of jobs because all the jobs are going overseas. Not at all. The jobs are going overseas because, in the big picture, it is what makes sense.

There is a basic principle in international economics which states that a country will excel in what it does best and that, for everyone's best interests, this process should be allowed to go largely unhindered. For example, country A produces a shit load of coal and another country B produces a shitload of rice, due to their natural resouces. Country A can produce rice if it wants, and country B can produce coal if it wants. Certainly that is what the rice farmers in A, and the coal miners in B, want. The problem is that to do so is not cost effective. It would cost much less for A to just import rice and B to import coal. Sure, some folks might temporarily be out of a job but eventually it will even out and in the long run both countries will be better off. So, to put it into the big picture, cheap labor jobs go to China because that is their best natural resource, not ours.

Ever wonder what would happen if all those overseas jobs came back to the U.S. What would happen if Nike suddenly had to pay U.S. minimum wage for shoe assembly instead of a few dollers a day? I don't know about you, but I don't want to take out a fucking loan for a pair of shoes. Contrary to what Bong says, the price of product or service does not remain the same. Not when you take a long term perspective and look at the big picture.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Contrary to what Bong says, the price of product or service does not remain the same. .
You know, you're right, the price does not remain the same.

It rises, and the profits go right in the bigwig's pockets.

Did you see in my post about how my fiance's company posted 24 billion in profits this fiscal quarter alone, from ONE division? This company has 15 divisions.

[higher4hockey]

i think outsourcing is jacked up. all it does is hurt middle america. not everyone can go to college and be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever else. there are a lot of factory workers that support their families by assembling ladders of making road cones. fuck outsourcing.


you can bet your ass that my tool box is filled with AMERICAN MADE stamped directly on everything.

[Fengzi]

You know, you're right, the price does not remain the same.

It rises, and the profits go right in the bigwig's pockets.

Did you see in my post about how my fiance's company posted 24 billion in profits this fiscal quarter alone, from ONE division? This company has 15 divisions.

What's the company Mrs. Greenjeans? Is it a publicly traded ? I'd like to take a look at their financials. Quite frankly, if only "ONE division" posted 24billion in profits,(in one fiscal qtr!!) I might just think of investing in them myself. Hell, HP and Apple combined on had a profit of $27 billion for the WHOLE YEAR. That's got to be one hell of a computer company your fiance works for.

People are just taking a micro view of the big picture. Like a little kid getting a shot. All they care about is that the shot hurts, not that it may protect them years later.

[Fengzi]

One other thing, don't confuse revenue with net profit. For example, General Motors had revenue of $206 billion in fiscal 2006 yet still posted a loss of close to $10 billion (ouch!!) Maybe they need to outsource a bit more ;)

[Thepossumdance]

As usual, most folks really have no idea what they are talking about. Outsourcing is not as bad as people think it is, in fact, there are a great number of advantages that people don't see.

The U.S currently has a 4.6% unemployment rate, which basically means full employment. In other words, that 4.6% is largely made up of people who probably wouldn't want a job if you were to give it to them. Don't get exited, I'm not saying the entire 4.6% falls into that catagory, but a pretty good portion of them.

we are as you said very near full employment, but I would like to point out that this leftover unemployment is not from those unwilling to work.

This issue is less about the availability of jobs and more about salary. As we outsource specific tech jobs to other countries our nation experiences more "structural unemployment" These workers then must find less skill specific lower paying jobs. It is obvious that as jobs move overseas where companies can pay significantly lower wages, it puts great strain on the American worker's bargaining power when it comes to attempting to gain needed wage increases to keep the same standard of living he or she is accustomed to.

[Fengzi]

we are as you said very near full employment, but I would like to point out that this leftover unemployment is not from those unwilling to work.

This issue is less about the availability of jobs and more about salary. As we outsource specific tech jobs to other countries our nation experiences more "structural unemployment" These workers then must find less skill specific lower paying jobs. It is obvious that as jobs move overseas where companies can pay significantly lower wages, it puts great strain on the American worker's bargaining power when it comes to attempting to gain needed wage increases to keep the same standard of living he or she is accustomed to.

An intelligent response, yet still with a micro/short term view. I agree with your statement that outsourcing "puts great strain on the American worker's bargaining power when it comes to attempting to gain needed wage increases to keep the same standard of living he or she is accustomed to". At least for the short term. But not to outsource would do the same thing. If these jobs were all to come back to the U.S., either the workers salaries would fall, or prices for the goods they produce would skyrocket. Thus they'd be back at the bargaining table trying to get another raise to keep their standard of living consistant.

In the short term it really is a "damned if you do/damned if you don't " situation. But you have to look at it long term and as a constantly evolving situation. Any given job is just a resource, and as one resource leaves another comes in. People look at it like a car with no way to add new gas. They don't want to drive, because once the gas is gone the car is useless. But it's not like that. When you use the gas you put more in. When one class of jobs is gone, another will arise, and this will be one that we are more competitive at.

[Thepossumdance]

I have to say Fengzi i dont totally agree with you but I nonetheless respect your viewpoint and feel like you presented your arguement with about as much intelligence and foresight as anyone on either side would be able to...

Economics is an odd field its models are often times seriously innaccurate or poorly applied. Really only time will tell how this recent burst of outsourcing will effect our country.. I do however very much agree with you on innnovation providing the eventual relief for the american worker who finds him or herself in search of well-paying skill specific work... I just happen to think that this short term solution of cutting down on outsourcing will help cushion us until the next wave of innovation can provide true relief for the american work force

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

One other thing, don't confuse revenue with net profit. For example, General Motors had revenue of $206 billion in fiscal 2006 yet still posted a loss of close to $10 billion (ouch!!) Maybe they need to outsource a bit more ;)
I'm sorry, but I really don't think that's a huge loss. They only cleared 196 billion? Those poor dears. I do hope they're clipping coupons and shopping at Sav-A-Lot.

What type of job do you have that you can afford to be so smug about this?

Oh, and I cannot post the name of my fiance's company for obvious reasons. He posts here, and I don't want to blow his anonymity. But looking back over my posts, I do see that I made a typo. Not 24 billion, that's just dumb. It was supposed to be Two Point Four. I should type it like that from now on. :o

[Fengzi]

I'm sorry, but I really don't think that's a huge loss. They only cleared 196 billion? Those poor dears. I do hope they're clipping coupons and shopping at Sav-A-Lot.

What type of job do you have that you can afford to be so smug about this?

Oh, and I cannot post the name of my fiance's company for obvious reasons. He posts here, and I don't want to blow his anonymity. But looking back over my posts, I do see that I made a typo. Not 24 billion, that's just dumb. It was supposed to be Two Point Four. I should type it like that from now on. :o

No, no, no, Mrs. Greenjeans. A $10 billion loss doesn't mean that they still made $196 billion. LOL. It means that, when everything was said and done, salaries, suppliers, taxes, etc. were paid; they had $10billion less in the bank. In other words, they earned $206 billion but spent $216 billion last year. Well, at least we we now know you don't understand the difference between revenue and profit.

As for not being able to post the name of your fiance's company, either your very paranoid or...... Even if the company only made a $2.4billion profit in a quarter, it's still a huge company with hordes of employees. I hardly doubt that stating the company's name here would jeopardize his anonymity. It's like me stating that I live in San Jose, CA. Huh? What's that?? The cops are at the door! Oh nooooooooooooooooo :eek:

[Thepossumdance]

ya lol its kinda a big deal when ur company loses 10billion dollars... GM has some huge problems that they are gonna needa address very soon

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

It's like me stating that I live in San Jose, CA. Huh? What's that?? The cops are at the door! Oh nooooooooooooooooo :eek:
Hey, be careless if you want to. I'm not stating anything that could be used to identify him, period. It's not my place to do so.


Even if the company only made a $2.4billion profit in a quarter, it's still a huge company with hordes of employees I said that his division, which is one of 15, made a Two Point Four billion profit. That's profit, not revenue.

I was talking about profit.

[Fengzi]

ya lol its kinda a big deal when ur company loses 10billion dollars... GM has some huge problems that they are gonna needa address very soon

Basically the entire U.S. auto industry. Ford pretty much sold it's soul to the banks recently and Chrysler is up for sale but nobody wants them. I really do hope the big three can come around though. As much as I am in favor of outsourcing, and even though I personally drive a Honda, I'd hate to see a company like Ford go the way of the dinosaur. Hell, Henry Ford is pretty much responsible for the modern automobile industry.

Oddly enough though, Toyota employees far more Americans than any other automotive companies in the U.S. And as far as "buying American" goes, the car with the highest proportion of U.S. made content is the Toyota Sienna.

[Thepossumdance]

i believe even honda is more "american made" than all the major american car producers

and to be fair u did originally say 24 billion...

[Fengzi]

Hey, be careless if you want to. I'm not stating anything that could be used to identify him, period. It's not my place to do so.

I said that his division, which is one of 15, made a Two Point Four billion profit. That's profit, not revenue.

I was talking about profit.

Oh well, I can guess. There's really only two possibilities anyhow and I know which one recently opened a call center in Costa Rica. Both of those two companies made less than a 7% profit for fiscal 2006. Not bad, but it could have been less and, if it's the one I'm thinking of, they were'nt doing nearly as good 2-3 years ago. Anyhow, the point I'm trying to make is that the numbers don't always look as good as they may seem.

[Dr.Hashman]

Wow... I opened up a big can of worms with that short essay. Luckily I have Fengzi the comical genious on my side, I think I saw another person on this thread who took an economics class and understands economies. AP Economics is my favorite class. My Economics teacher goes to alot of conferences! Oh no! Police at me door! O shivver me timbers, I better not write that I live on earth, then every authority will get me! *Agent puts gun to my head and forces me to type* Yes.. All put your info on the web, we the police I mean I am going give $40 if you confess your crimes and give social security numbers... USA 4 Teh WiN! Pay TAXeS GooD!

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Don't be a dick Hashman. If my dude wanted his personal business all over the net, he'd put it there himself. And you were so busy clowning, you didn't answer my questions about your mother. They weren't rhetorical. I want to know.

Fengzi, you're right, his company wasn't doing as well 3 years ago. And what I'm saying is, that the people in power haven't had to compromise their standards of living, despite posting losses. They leave that to people like my fiance. It's the regular folks who take the hit.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

ok all of you economics geniuses out there, here is a little REAL WORLD economics for you. of the positions out-sourced and occupied by illegal immigrants, a majority are considered entry level or non/semi-skilled positions. these are the jobs that give you that start in your long and illustrious career as an american wage slave, a necessary toe hold on your climb into the real world. in the states illegals tend to remain in those positions. being satisfied with a lower standard of living, they will remain in those jobs and keep others (citizens) from using those positions as stepping stones to better things. once those jobs have been out-sourced they have simply disappeared from the country and are completely unavailable for those who are starting out. with fewer avenues of access into the job market, fewer lower-class citizens can make the climb into the middle-class and fewer middle-class young adults can maintain their standard of living. with fewer people rising into the middle-class and many being forced out of it, a vast wasteland starts to develop between the haves and the have-nots.

the elimination of the middle-class seems to be a constant theme within the globalists' play book. while spouting such numbers as that 4.6% unemployment rate you seem to forget how deflated these statistics are. they don't/can't take into account those who have opted out of the system entirely. by being forced out of the employment marketplace many have created a new ghost economy outside of the established controls. even if we were to use the official statistics, that would mean 1 out of every 20 workers cannot find a job. i believe the real numbers are at least double that and that means that about 10% of our workforce must find unofficial means of employment or make use of our already strained welfare and unemployment systems.

though we are all for raising the standard of living across the globe, to do so at the expense of our own citizens is foolhardy at best. by robbing peter to pay paul we are creating pockets of third world existence within one of the most prosperous nations on earth and to do this in order to line the pockets of those who are already sickeningly wealthy is downright evil. you might be willing to see these sacrifices being made at the altar of capitalistic greed and world domination, but that is not the dream on which this nation was founded. we can't save the world by giving away what we have worked so hard to accumulate, we will only bring ourselves down with the rest of them.

[Zimzum]

If you look at a world population density map, you'll see that where our jobs are going they are among the brightest country's out there. More people there then there are jobs for them. So they "buy" our low skill jobs to fill in there gaps. Just like we buy oil from foreign lands to supplement what we can't drill out of our own land. If you can outsource an American job for a fraction of the cost, maybe Americans can outsource themselves to live at a fraction of the cost it does to live in the US. To American standards these people make crap for money but if you look at there economy a $3/hr job is like a $30/hr job here in the US. But we live here and take it up the ass because we have become accustom to our way of living.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

....So they "buy" our low skill jobs to fill in their gaps. ...
.... But we live here and take it up the ass because we have become accustomed to our way of living.

why should we sacrifice our unskilled laborers to make up for what their employers fail to provide? our standard of living has facilitated the growth of these corporations and now in order to increase their profit margins they are willing to lower that standard of living, at the same time increasing its cost. not only is this a bit of a back stab, it seems incredibly short-sighted as well.

[Zimzum]

But when you have millions of people willing to work for penny's on the dollar, what labor market can compete with that? These people are not thinking about the jobs they took from Americans. They want to feed there family's and take there kids to the dentist before they die from a cavity. I don't think you could live anywhere in America for $500 USD a month. Rent, food, bills would be too much. But take the same $500 USD and there tons of places you could live quite well outside our boarder. Its not just greed on the part of corporations but from everyone.


In theory I could sell my house. Cash in on all by stocks, bonds, retirement, etc.. Move to Brazil and live the rest of my life without working a single day

[Fengzi]

Zim Zum has the right idea. It's all about competition. We are more competive in some areas and other countries are more competive in other areas. Unfortunately, the U.S. is not competitive in the unskilled labor market.

Corporations exist to make money, not lose it. Sorry to break it to you but that's the sad (for some) fact. More money, more profits, and being more competive is what helps drive innovation. The additional money is put back into the economy and the innovation is what drives the creation of new products that help raise our standard of living. This is why we have the standard of living that we do. It's called capitalism and is what makes America great. Frankly, I'm always surprised at how many people who wave the banner of capitalism when it comes to a discussion of it vs socialism but then turn their backs as soon as Capitalism doesn't work in their favor.

We sacrifice our unskilled laborers to keep our standard of living, not do away with it. How do you expect to keep the standard of living if prices for manufactured goods go through the roof? Give the unskilled laborers more money? Wonderful, more money into the economy, more inflation, time for another raise. How long can we keep it going?

Ultimately, if this is such a bad thing, the market will correct itself. Think about it, if so many people lose their jobs. If so many people are put out of work, if the standard of living falls for enough people, who will buy the goods made by cheap labor? But is this happening? No. Outsourcing didn't start last year, it's been going on for a very long time. Yet, the economy grows and unemployment falls. Hmmm, makes you wonder doesn't it.

Additionally, whether good or bad, we have to ask ourselves what is the alternative? If U.S. corporations don't outsource, how can we stay competitive with goods coming from countries that do? For example. what should the U.S. television industry do? What's that? There is no U.S. television industry anymore. Why not? Because the companies weren't competive with the Japanese. They had become complacent and before they knew it they were gone. So, what happens when U.S Corporations can no longer compete with foriegn corporations and have to close up shop entirely. That's right, more people out of work. And do you know what? The same people who whine about outsourcing will then be whining about poor management not making the right decisions which would have kept the corporation going.

You can't have it all folks. Rarely can you have your cake and eat it too. Certainly not in the business world. It's not as simple as just ending outsourcing. Your looking at one little piece of a 1000 piece puzzle. Every action has an effect and many, many times it comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils becaus ethat is what will be the best choice 5,10, 20 years down the road.

[medicinal]

Outsourcing didn't start last year, it's been going on for a very long time. Yet, the economy grows and unemployment falls. Hmmm, makes you wonder doesn't it.
It certainly does. I believe the numbers are skewed, on purpose, to make us feel better about our crashing economy. The only ones doing well in this economy are the upper crust. The people with large stock portfolios and upper management. You are right about one thing, when the average consumer can't afford to consume, the walls will come crashing in. Hey, every civilization has it's day and we've had ours, now like all of the rest of them, greed is about to bring it down. Moving to a cheaper country has a few drawbacks, like safety, health care, leaving all your friends and family etc., but might be the only alternative for people like me living on social security and a small pension. When I was in Mexico a couple of years ago, I got to talking with a mexican citizen and we were discusing incomes. I informed him that I only recieved about 1500.00 a month. He said I could live very well on that. Of course after I sold out here, I'd have a few hundred K to re-establish my abode with. He raised 5 children on about 800.00 a month and bought a house and had a decent car, so I believed him. If it gets much worse in my neighborhood (illegals buying in), I might as well move to mexico anyway where I could live well on my meager retirement, I already speak a little spanish, uno, dos tres quatro, etc.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I love the way nobody has answered my questions. You want to laugh at me for not putting overly personal info out there (about someone else to boot), and yet not one of you has answered my questions about how this all applies to you on a personal level. I'm reading a lot of abstract theory. So I'll ask again.

Hashman: Do you think your mother is just being greedy and bogarting her "stored wealth"? Do you think she has an unreasonably high standard of living? Or has she busted her ass to get where she is?

Fengzi:What type of job do you have that you can afford to be so smug about this? Surely you won't mind telling me.

[Dr.Hashman]

My stepmom was the one I was having the conversation with. My mom is a trophy wife who sells commercial real estate for fun, she doesn't work for her wealth very hard. So she can go on vacations to random countries every year, she sells shopping centers and such, but her friend is 75% of the operation. She goes to lunch with people who are interested in investing and talks them into it. She brings in the money, he does the investing. Good for her that she can bring in a half a mill per year working maybe 60 days a year.

My stepmom worked for an airline company for 10 years or so along with very successful network marketing career. Now she is a corperate flight attendant and does an amazing job and works for her money. I respect my stepmom more (I still repsect my mom, don't worry) than my mom because my stepmom works hard for her money.

My stepmom and I talked about it more and she now thinks that Virgin Airlines should become part of the US domestic flight industry because the customer service is crap. Overseas flight attendants actually care about how your flight is (there are some good ones, but alot of bad ones too).

My viewpoint on all this is that if it is cheaper, outsource so you can stay competitive and don't post 12 billion dollars in losses. Toyota is providing alot of jobs to Americans as they have one of the biggest automotive plants in the US, outsourcing from Japan to America... Along with staying competitive, it also provides for someone else less fortunate. If we had Greenspan back working for the Federal Reserve still we could probably outsource 90% of our jobs lol, jk...

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Thank you Hashman. See, it makes more sense when you explain your position by providing some background.
I also didn't realize until 2 minutes ago when I read a post of yours on another thread that you were still in highschool. Please go back and read Delusion's post, particularly the part about a ghost economy. I myself am one of those who operate within said ghost economy. I have to in order to survive.

[Fengzi]

Fengzi:What type of job do you have that you can afford to be so smug about this? Surely you won't mind telling me.

Surely not Mrs. Greenjeans. In fact, here's the whole story.

I graduated high school as a long haired stoner with a 1.2 GPA. My first job was cleaning horse stalls(aka shoveling shit). After that I worked in a factory manufacturing corregated paper products, worked as a cook at Sizzler, did some construction work, delivered pizza, etc.

After a few years of this, I decided I wanted something better and started taking night classes at the community college. This led to a university where I eventually earned a B.S. in International Business and a B.A. in East Asian Studies. All while working full time.

After I graduated I moved to China for a while, where I taught English as I was learning to speak, read, and write Chinese. I now work as an account manager for a distributor of U.S. made semiconductor manufacturing equipment. My company's headquarters is in Taiwan and all of our sales are in Taiwan, China and Singapore.

I am also pretty active in the stock market and, although my portfolio is fairly modest, I am able to pull in a return of about 25% per year. Although, if you've been following the news, you'll know that the last few days have hurt me badly.

While I was living in China I met my wife. My wife grew up in a poor, poor, village in Eastern China. She remembers that for many years, while she was growing up, her family was only able to afford to eat meat once per week. The rest of the time was rice, tofu, and vegetables. The first time she had her own bathroom was after we were married and got our first apartment. Prior to that she shared a communal bathroom with the rest of the village, or in the dorms while she was in college. Despite her poor background, my wife had managed to get into China's version of Harvard when she was 15yo and had a master's degree by the time she was 21. She is now a senior software architect for a major U.S. internet company.

And yes, I do smoke weed. Except for a 5year period, shortly after I moved back to the U.S., I have smoked for the last 25 years. Although now I limit my consumption to the evenings, after everything's done, and my daugher is in bed.

Hope this answers your question. I don't consider myself smug, and if you knew me I'm sure you would find me a very modest person. This is just pretty much my area of expertise. Plus, having spent my time in the trenches, I do have the ability to see things from both points of view. Please do not take my support of outsourcing as a lack of sympathy towards those that are hurt by it. It is just, as I have already said, often the lesser of two evils and many times what is best long term.

[Fengzi]

Sorry if I went a bit overboard there folks. But, since she asked, I was just trying to give Mrs. Greenjeans an idea where I was coming from.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Thank you Fengzi. As I was telling Dr. Hashman, it is much easier for me to understand your point of view if I know the background.

BTW, I finally got accurate figures on my fiance's company. I was looking in the wrong place, so I asked him about it today.

Revenue of 4.2 billion for 4th quarter fy06. (I knew there was a 2 and a 4 involved.;) )
Operating profit of 326 million.

Looking over your post, it seems to me that you are coming from your viewpoint as personally as I am coming from mine. People that are very dear to each of us are affected in different ways by outsourcing, to the good on your end, to the negative on my end.

Sorry about your stock losses. My mom lost a bunch of her retirement fund one year, when she was only 3 years from retirement and didn't know if she'd be able to recoup a loss that large. That is not a good feeling.

[Dr.Hashman]

Here is where I come from financially:

My dad grew up on a small corn farm in Iowa, he was one of 4 brothers. When he was 18 he hitchhiked to California, and was a Janitor in a daycare in exchange for being able to live at the facility (in a storage closet). He also worked in a warehouse for a company (can't mention what field exactly, but it is electric like). He then memorized the catalog, and proved through hard work that he was a good worker. Eventually get was moved into the office doing petty work, he excelled and then moved into sales. He was the #1 salesman after only 3 months. He then attended night class at a community college but only finished 2 years.

He got a big break when a regional distribution company in that field went broke (the office that went broke had 8 employees). My dad moved to the area and setup an office with another another person. My dad did all the work, bought out his co-owner, and hired a secretary and a engineer. Now my dad has 30 people working for him and he has sole distribution rights to 8 states and contracts with major stores (where you guys probably buy alot of stuff). So from corn farmer to multi-millionaire...

And now a couple other things... 25% return? wow... I am an avid investor (IPOs, venture capital, stocks, and a bit of bonds) and 25% is really good. Most I have made in one year is 22% average return, but then again I have only been investing 3 years and that was mostly from an venture capital investment that was really successful.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

Hashman, knowing what you know about how your dad worked his way up the ranks, do you feel like you have a similar chance in the current economic climate to do the same?

I'm asking because I know quite a few people who were raised to believe that if you worked hard, you'd succeed, and they've found that's it's not always so. What say you?

[Dr.Hashman]

Considering that I am already successful in my opinion, I think I will do well. I have been reading books on investing, business, economics, and governments since I was young. When I turn 18 in a few months I am going to start selling Arbonne products (a multi-level marketing company that sells healthy skin and body products) just so I can learn how to sell. I have always had a dream of retiring young and writing travel books while sailing/flying around the world. I love flying and I love sailing. My grandpa (moms side) has a nice yacht that I love and my mom's friends all have airplanes, but one day I want to own some of my own. I also want to setup small villages in third world countries and build wells, hospitals, ect. I have been volunteering with a group called Flying Samaritans for a couple years and have done alot of work with them. That info was to show that I am not a greedy person who wants to have a huge corporation.

How about you? Have you worked hard to try to become successful?

[Bong30]

Outsourcing didn't start last year, it's been going on for a very long time. Yet, the economy grows and unemployment falls. Hmmm, makes you wonder doesn't it.
It certainly does. I believe the numbers are skewed, on purpose, to make us feel better about our crashing economy. The only ones doing well in this economy are the upper crust. The people with large stock portfolios and upper management. You are right about one thing, when the average consumer can't afford to consume, the walls will come crashing in. Hey, every civilization has it's day and we've had ours, now like all of the rest of them, greed is about to bring it down. Moving to a cheaper country has a few drawbacks, like safety, health care, leaving all your friends and family etc., but might be the only alternative for people like me living on social security and a small pension. When I was in Mexico a couple of years ago, I got to talking with a mexican citizen and we were discusing incomes. I informed him that I only recieved about 1500.00 a month. He said I could live very well on that. Of course after I sold out here, I'd have a few hundred K to re-establish my abode with. He raised 5 children on about 800.00 a month and bought a house and had a decent car, so I believed him. If it gets much worse in my neighborhood (illegals buying in), I might as well move to mexico anyway where I could live well on my meager retirement, I already speak a little spanish, uno, dos tres quatro, etc.

I agree 100% move to mexico.... dont let the door hit ya.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I've worked on paper since I was 14. Before that, I had your usual kid jobs, babysitting, paper delivery, yard work. In my late teens (17ish) I wound up in retail management, first a bakery, then a hair salon. I foolishly decided to keep working rather than accept my full ride to Mt. Holyoke. I thought I'd "take a year off" then go to school. After managing a movie theater, I found myself divorced, in another city, and working in a restaurant. By then I was 21-22. Sometimes that whole 2 years seems like a blur. If anything, my life has been an example of what not to do. I went to a trade school to try to make a quick turnaround, only to discover I hated my trade ;) I wound up tending bar and dancing for 4 years or so, then went back into retail management. At some point (26?) I met my 2nd husband, and had two children one at 29, the other at 32. I stayed home with them, and started building indoor tabletop fountains and making custom greeting cards and stationery. This went well until my then husband decided that crack was a helluva drug. I found myself divorced again, and in a battered women's shelter. Starting over, I finally went to school (fulltime) and majored in Technical Communications while working fulltime for an IT company, doing something I can't really classify to this day. My official job title was CyberTech. Whatever the hell that means. Anyhow it paid well and afforded me flexibility for school.

After trying rather unsuccessfully to get a job in my field, I settled for craptacular administrative positions while I continued applying for jobs in my field, all the while becoming disillusioned at the amount of lying and asskissing required. Which is really funny considering my field is based entirely on lying and asskissing. Que sera sera. I've also done construction and roofing. My crackhead ex was a contractor, so I have experience.

In 2003 I met and married some dick in the Army. He didn't want his wife working. When he left for Iraq, I took a job in a tattoo shop, to give me something to do during the day, and for free ink.:D Then I went back to dancing, to make some money instead of just ink. Something told me I'd need a little financial cushion. Lo and behold I was right. He came back from Iraq acting sketchy as fuck...sleeping with a loaded handgun in the bed, screaming at the kids, slamming me up against the wall. One night, I dropped my kids off at my mom's, went to work, and never went back home.
At this point, I've been out of the legit work force for 2 years. So I kept dancing while I was getting my ducks in a row. I met my current fiance during this time (2005, and no, not in the bar. A friend introduced us) Then one rainy night, I didn't have my glasses on (I can't see well in the dark at all) and I wrecked my car, nearly killing myself in the process. They had to cut the windshield and sort of squish me out. I was hospitalized for 2 weeks, and recovering for much longer than that. Due to my injuries, I believed dancing to be out of the question. Surprisingly, 6 weeks later my boss begged me to come back to work. However, my fiance encouraged me to go back to the professional workforce, which I have been trying to do ever since last summer, and am growing increasingly frustrated with. In the meantime, I fix computers for a living. Under the table naturally.;) I'll be 38 this May. I feel like I've worked hard indeed, although success wasn't really my goal, at least not the way most people define it.

I've always wanted to just be happy, and raise well adjusted kids. I've managed to do that so far. They are wonderful little people, smart, with beautiful souls. So yes, I feel successful.:)

[higher4hockey]

they can outsource all they want, its time like these i'm glad i'm an electrician. my job is not going to asia. guaranteed. and thankfully, i absolutely love doing what i do, how i got into it is a long story, but basically long story short, oportunity knocked and i answered. now i'm an apprentice electrical worker. i have A LOT left to learn, but i thouroughly enjoy it , i'd much rather strap on the tool belt and bend some conduit any day than sit behind a desk or work in a factory making bottles.



1,000th post by the way :)

[Zimzum]

they can outsource all they want, its time like these i'm glad i'm an electrician. my job is not going to asia. guaranteed.

I'm an electrician too. Started CCTV and fire alarms. Also have a BS in Electrical Engineering. IBEW loc#103

[Krogith]

they can outsource all they want, its time like these i'm glad i'm an electrician. my job is not going to asia. guaranteed. and thankfully, i absolutely love doing what i do, how i got into it is a long story, but basically long story short, oportunity knocked and i answered. now i'm an apprentice electrical worker. i have A LOT left to learn, but i thouroughly enjoy it , i'd much rather strap on the tool belt and bend some conduit any day than sit behind a desk or work in a factory making bottles.



1,000th post by the way :)

Yeah but sad to say is the Fact that Big Company Greed does Effect You. A Big Houseing Company will Love to Use Cheaper Non Union Workers than a Union worker. Thus Lowering the Top Wage, Wage benefits, and Job security.

[Fengzi]

Here is where I come from financially:

My dad grew up on a small corn farm in Iowa, he was one of 4 brothers. When he was 18 he hitchhiked to California, and was a Janitor in a daycare in exchange for being able to live at the facility (in a storage closet). He also worked in a warehouse for a company (can't mention what field exactly, but it is electric like). He then memorized the catalog, and proved through hard work that he was a good worker. Eventually get was moved into the office doing petty work, he excelled and then moved into sales. He was the #1 salesman after only 3 months. He then attended night class at a community college but only finished 2 years.

He got a big break when a regional distribution company in that field went broke (the office that went broke had 8 employees). My dad moved to the area and setup an office with another another person. My dad did all the work, bought out his co-owner, and hired a secretary and a engineer. Now my dad has 30 people working for him and he has sole distribution rights to 8 states and contracts with major stores (where you guys probably buy alot of stuff). So from corn farmer to multi-millionaire...

And now a couple other things... 25% return? wow... I am an avid investor (IPOs, venture capital, stocks, and a bit of bonds) and 25% is really good. Most I have made in one year is 22% average return, but then again I have only been investing 3 years and that was mostly from an venture capital investment that was really successful.

Interesting, it seems like your Dad is a big influence in how you've come to form your opinions and it's the same with me. Like your father, mine came from a very humble background, worked his way up, and now he's what many would consider one of the "bigwigs in power".

I always get a bit defensive when people start in on the "bigwigs" because I've seen what being a "bigwig" can do to a person. I've seen my father beat himself up emotionally, not sleeping for a week, before having to do a big layoff. I've seen him lying in a hospital bed with tubes sticking out from everwhere after a triple bypass. Something he needed not because of a bad diet or lack of exercise, but most likely due to the stress from work. Last year he spent more days in hotel beds overseas then in his own bed at home. He celebrated his 60th birthday, a big milestone, in Japan.

The bottom line is that being a bigwig isn't the walk in the park people think it is. Yeah they earn a lot of money, but they earn it. If it was that easy a job, everyone would be doing it. But it isn't. I also know that in the vast majority of cases, the bigwigs' compensations are tied to the company's performance. My father has had his compensation plan nearly cut in 1/2 a few years ago when, despite the fact that his division had record sales, the rest of the company wasn't doing very good. Not to mention the fact that, even as an Executive VP, he was layed off from a previous position when his division was eliminated. See, not even the bigwigs are immune from layoffs. Hell, even CEOs "leave" (aka are fired) when the corporation isn't doing good.

Anyhow, it sounds like your following in your Dad's footsteps and that's great. I initially rejected following my Father and it took me a long, long, time to work myself up to where I am now. Fortunately my father cut me off when I turned 18 and, although I didn't see it that way back then, it was the best thing he ever did for me.

As for the 25% return, I do a lot of day and swing trades making less than 1% at a time. 1% may not seem like a lot but if you can make 1% a week (I don't btw) it adds up. I've also gotton lucky on a number of pretty risky investments that paid off really, really well. Plus, that 25% includes what we make with my wife's stock purchase plan which guaruntees a minimum 15% return. Anyhow, if your only 18yo and pulling in 20%, I sure as shit wouldn't complain. At 20%, by the time your my age, whatever you've got in now will have grown 4,000% and that's pretty damn good.

[Dr.Hashman]

22% was last year (oh god... I'm not even 18 and I hate taxes) and that was mostly because of some scientist that made a big breakthrough coupled with they had very low funding so my low investment payed off like a big investment. I have also been busting my ass reading 10x the amount of business type books compared to school assigned books. The Rich Dad Poor Dad series is a great series by Robert Kiyosaki, I suggest you pick up one of his books sometime. I can relate to having a dad who is really stressed out too. My dad is too generous with him employees I think. There is a girl who has been working for him for 1 1/2 years, can't do anything right, spends only 2 hours a day actually working, gets to come in a hour late and leave an hour early for her kids (I can understand that), and also takes a whole bunch of sick days and vacations. He is finally firing her but is giving her 3 months salary, and full benifits. I guess he really cares for him employees.

Mrs. Greenjeans, you sound like you have been through alot but have stayed strong. I wish you the best of luck and remember to get as many hugs from your kids now as you can as you remember what it is like hugging your mom when you are 17 and in front of your friends. I still hug my mom in front of my friends though because I know that she is freaking out because I am going off to college. I also noticed that you have a very diverse range of careers, I bet you could fix a computer while dancing* and managing a household/business and baking some fresh bread for PB&J sandwiches all at the same time lol

And Bong30, lol... I like how blunt that comment was, not saying I agree with it, but its still funny.

* I really hope you can still dance sometime. I love dancing too, I even went to a strip dancing class in mexico last spring break lol, but I like salsa/tango the best.

[medicinal]

I agree 100% move to mexico.... dont let the door hit ya.
Well thank you Bonger, I didn't know you cared. One things for sure, I'd have no trouble getting back in with the border the way it is. I've thought about joining the vigilantes on the border, but I'd be too tempted to shoot, so I decided against it. I'm glad I'm retired so I don't have to worry about my job, It's my kids and grand kids I worry about, what kind of a country will this be in 20 years? Mega rich and mega poor is the trend, we might all have to move to Mexico.

[Dr.Hashman]

We had to debate last year what we think should happen to the border, I suggested flaming wall of gas. Really... Who would want to try to cross that? lol... Thats my 2 cents on the border.

[Bong30]

We need machine gun turits with motion sensors.......


fuck the wall, machine guns will work......

[Dr.Hashman]

lol... I would feel bad for the people getting shot though. I like the flaming wall of gas.

[Bong30]

Gas prices as high as they are ya know.... you can get rounds of .223 for dirt cheap......LOL

what doesnt mexico fix that shit hole insted of making ours a shit hole.....

[Dr.Hashman]

USA was founded by the English, Dutch, French, German type people, Mexico was founded by Angry Spainish People who acted like they were god but then killed a whole civilization. They kinda got off to a bad start. It was also manafest destiny that we became such a great nation according to like half the cowboys and such.

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

I always get a bit defensive when people start in on the "bigwigs" because I've seen what being a "bigwig" can do to a person. The bottom line is that being a bigwig isn't the walk in the park people think it is.

Not discounting your father's health issues: he has a choice. He could lower his standard of living, and relieve himself of some pressure.

[delusionsofNORMALity]

....Mexico was founded by Angry Spanish People who acted like they were god but then killed a whole civilization. They kinda got off to a bad start....

the spanish can only be blamed for the origins of mexico's corruption. throughout it's history mexico's wealthy landowners along with the catholic church have actively participated in a way of life that keeps the masses incredibly ignorant while enriching themselves. while the us has a history of embracing immigrants and assimilating them into the culture, mexico has tended to discourage immigration and exclude immigrants from participating in its limited political and economic growth.

i know that someone is bound to take exception to my statement that the us embraces immigrants, but if you look back over the nations history you will find it to be true. our entire culture is a mixture of cultures from all around the world. it is only recently that we have attempted to curb the flood of people who look to this country for the chance at a better life. one of the major reasons for this current trend is that far too many countries have attempted to use us as a dumping ground for their criminals and those who are a drain on their own economies.

[thecreator]

What the fuck????!!?!??! I see where your coming from but there is a fine middle class in a majority of the world. Our outsourcing makes there cuntry thrive but to a cretin extent bc then you dwell in the realm of money values and equal pay. Unions can thrive and in some cases all work ceased bc of personal issues. I know thats an extreme case and I'm not saying thats why we dont give poor ppl money. Its just a variable. If we jump back to America then we have pl upset bc there lack of employment resulting in a lack of overall motivation. the government has to support them at times bc many ppl would rather get free money rather than work at a job below there quote unquote standards. Idk thats the way i see it and we should spread wealth to other countries but look upon the international community for support. I know we attempt to be a modern day Prometheus but were still only one country. I don't take what im saying with a grain of salt if you want but thats my opinion. :hippy: :hippy: :hippy:

[Mrs. Greenjeans]

As a mom, I have an analogy. If I am run down, tired, hungry, depressed, I am not a very good mother, because my reserves are depleted. I have nothing extra to give to my children. If I am functioning well, so are they. While it may seem noble indeed to tap myself out on their behalf, in the end it does them a disservice, not only the obvious ones, but the more intangible (and more detrimental) one of endowing them with a sense of entitlement.