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Torog
02-21-2007, 04:11 PM
The Infidel Revolution
By Jamie Glazov (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/authors.asp?ID=3)
FrontPageMagazine.com | February 21, 2007


Frontpage Interview??s guest today is Frontpage Interview??s guest today is Bill Warner, the director of the Center for the Study of Political Islam (http://www.cspipublishing.com/) (CSPI). CSPI??s goal is to teach the doctrine of political Islam through its books and it has produced a series on its focus. Mr. Warner did not write the CSPI series, but he acts as the agent for a group of scholars who are the authors.
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Media/Homepage/Portrait.jpg
FP: Mr. Warner, welcome back to Frontpage Interview.
In our last interview (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26769), you did a powerful job in crystallizing the mortal danger that Political Islam poses to all non-Islamic societies. I think that interview set the stage for a new mandatory discussion: What should we do to protect ourselves from the threat? Yes, we need to understand Political Islam. But once we understand it, what do we do about it? Or is there anything we can really do?

Mr. Warner, let??s begin with a general question. What has marked our resistance so far?

Warner: Our resistance so far has been the first stage: to know the enemy and to develop a strategy. We are now coming to the end of it.

Since 9/11 we have had intellectual warriors who have studied Political Islam, built websites, blogged and written books. We now know the entire scope of Islamic doctrine and the biggest elements of a repressed and denied history of the dhimmitude (http://www.dhimmitude.org/archive/by_lecture_10oct2002.htm), and annihilation of cultures. To repeat, we now know the doctrine and history of Political Islam (http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=26769) at a strategic level. We now know the enemy and this is a mark of our success.

FP: Just for the sake of our readers, define ??dhimmi? please.

Warner: A dhimmi is a second class citizen of an Islamic state. They can remain Christian or Jew, but pay a special tax and have very few legal rights. They are forbidden to study the Koran. Hence, today a dhimmi who defers to Political Islam is ignorant of the doctrine of Islam and never challenges it. Dhimmitude is the state of mind of a dhimmi. We are all in debt to Bat Yeor for her research and books on the dhimmi.

FP: Crystallize for us who the enemy is.

Warner: Our enemy is the civilization of dualism. The ultimate nature of Islamic civilization is duality. Dualistic Islamic ethics and politics propose one behavior for Muslims and another behavior for the unbelievers (kafirs). Islam has declared that the civilization of dualism must annihilate that civilization which is based upon a unitary view of humanity??ours. It is logically impossible for a civilization based upon a unitary view of humanity to co-exist with a civilization based upon duality.

History confirms that becoming Islamic means that every aspect of the targeted civilization must cease to exist. And it works 100% of the time. There is no such thing as a culture that is only partially Islamic. The evidence is exquisitely clear.

So for a people who have been raised with an ignorance of Political Islam we have made incredible strides. Remember we had only apologies from those who should have been our first line of defense??our artists, intellectuals, media and the educational system. In a sense we have started at less than zero.

We should all stop, take a deep breath, look at what we have done and congratulate ourselves for completing the first stage: Know the Enemy. Then we need take another deep breath and get back to work: Strategy.

FP: So what should our strategy be?

Warner: Our strategymust be the salvation of our precious civilization. We must save our very selves.

All of this cannot be accomplished without the Mind of War. There is a psychology of war that puts everything in a different perspective. We are rich, fat, dumb and happy living in the land that everyone wants to emigrate to. It is easy to turn on the Super Bowl, plan the bar mitzvah, work for a promotion and just let Political Islam have its way. The Mind of War sees that all of what we have is an illusion, that the cancer has started to metastasize. Until we develop the Mind of War, we are doomed. We must have that emergency reserve that war brings out.

Without this state of mind, we will lose all we have. The great civilization of Coptic Egypt of the Pharaohs that lasted 5000 years is gone, a corpse buried beneath Political Islam. Liberal democracy is only 200 years old. Political Islam is 1400 years old and exploding in power. Without the Mind of War, our civilization will become extinct under the impact of the civilization of duality.

FP: This strategy would seem difficult for us to attain because we appear to be very afraid to make comments about Political Islam in our own society, no?

Warner: It is our dhimmitude. It??s bizarre. We are afraid of Political Islam and its followers. They are not remotely afraid of us. Why is this? We are in a psychotic state of fear and shame caused by a past of 1400 years of dhimmitude and slavery. This psychosis is the state of the molested mind. The horror of Islamic politics produces a denial that the deaths, conquests, slavery, rape, humiliation, degradation, suffering and civilizational destruction ever happened. The molested mind denies the history and doctrine of Political Islam. That is the mind of dhimmitude.

Our civilization must acknowledge our status. We are still dhimmis. It has been 1400 years of servitude, slavery, dhimmitude, ignorance and a repressed and denied history. When we understand our history we will see exactly how repressed and in denial we are. The first mark of the dhimmi is ignorance of Political Islam.

We must acknowledge our suffering. We must decide that 270,000,000 of our ancestors did not die in vain. We must gain insight into why we know so little. There is a very deep reason in our collective psyche why we choose to remain ignorant. We are afraid to admit our dhimmitude and slavery to Political Islam. A million Europeans were captured and sold into Islamic slavery. If the history of slavery were completely told, whites and blacks could see each other in a new light.

In the past, this shame, ignorance and fear could be ignored. But now Political Islam is here and has us by the throat. Our future as a civilization depends upon realizing how close to annihilation we are. Only a revolution can save us. We must have a revolt of the dhimmis, a Dhimmi Revolution. After 1400, years it is time we faced our shame and fear with the Mind of War.

This common suffering must be acknowledged and told. The history and stories must be told within our groups and shared with the other groups. Once we know about the Tears of Jihad, we will be strong and courageous. Once we remember the suffering of dhimmitude, we can stop being afraid, have the Mind of War and be heroes in the war to save our civilization.

Luckily the cure for dhimmitude is very simple. Once you know the history and doctrine of Political Islam, you cease being a dhimmi. Knowledge is the key and the only key to freedom from shame and fear. We shall know the truth and the truth will make us free. Our future depends upon our facing the past.

FP: You refer to270 million deaths at the hands of Political Islam. Can you shed light on that figure?

Warner: The figure of270 million is a rough estimate of the death of non-Muslims by the political act of jihad. It is calculated as such:

Africans


Thomas Sowell estimates that eleven million slaves were shipped across the Atlantic and fourteen million were sent to the Islamic nations of North Africa and the Middle East. [1] David Livingstone estimated that for every slave who reached the plantation, five others died by being killed in the raid or died on the forced march from illness and privation. [2] So, for 25 million slaves delivered to the market, we have the collateral death of about 120 million people. Muslims ran all the wholesale slave trade in Africa. Death toll: 120 million Africans

Christians

The number of Christians martyred by Islam is nine million.[3] A rough estimate by Raphael Moore in History of Asia Minor is that another fifty million died in wars by jihad. So to account for the one million African Christians killed in the 20th century we have: 60 million Christians

Hindus

Koenard Elst in Negationism in India [4] gives an estimate of eighty million Hindus killed in the total jihad against India. The country of India today is only half the size of ancient India, due to jihad. Death toll: 80 million Hindus


Buddhists

Jihad killed the Buddhists in Turkey, Afghanistan, along the Silk Route, and in India. The total is roughly ten million. [5] Death toll: 10 million Buddhists

Jews

The jihad in Arabia was 100 percent effective but the numbers were in the thousands, not millions. After that the Jews submitted and became the dhimmis (servants and second class citizens) of Islam and did not have geographic political power.

This gives a rough estimate of 270 million killed by jihad.

FP: Thank you. Sounds like a holocaust to me ?? a holocaust that was never taught to me in school or in university.

So let??s get back to our enemy: Political and Ethical Dualism. But we also have another enemy in terms of the people in our own society who apologize for it, right?

Warner: Yes, Political and Ethical Dualism is the far enemy, the near enemy is its apologists. In the end we will win or lose depending on how we deal with our dhimmi leaders in the media, schools and politics. Once we win the Dhimmi Revolution, winning the war with Political Islam is possible. If we don??t win the revolution, our civilization will become extinct.

And what is the nature of the near enemy, the apologists? They want to maintain ignorance about Mohammed and Political Islam??s history. Our experience is that when an apologist learns the truth about the doctrine and history of Political Islam, the danger is revealed.

There are basically two kinds of knowledge about Political Islam??knowledge of doctrine and knowledge of history. The full cure requires both. There is a 1400 year-old history of slavery and dhimmitude, so when you are curing ignorance with the history of Political Islam, there is a lot of history to choose from.

The political doctrine is much simpler. You can hold the doctrine in one hand??Koran, Sira and Hadith. Although a detailed knowledge about the Koran is useful, the most powerful element of the doctrine is Mohammed. Mohammed is Islam, so we must educate others about Mohammed, Islam??s first politician, and its sacred political model.

FP: Fair enough, so what do we do, write more books?

Warner: We cannot win by writing another book, putting up another website or blog. Those things are individual in nature. We must move to the political phase. This means boots on the ground, people meeting in the same room, people talking to people. Politics. Groups. Meetings. Real people. Not just computer screens, or books. We must have action against the near enemy in our town. This is the battleground we will live or die on as a civilization.

It is impossible for individuals to win this revolution. Our first step must be to build community. So how do we build community? Of course, there are many ways to go about this. Some people can build within a present group. An example would be forming groups within a church or synagogue. Conventions must be held to form strategies.

We must also build community out of strangers. We must develop ways to meet others in our city. Larger communities must be formed from the small communities. We need ways for revolutionaries to learn what is going on with other groups to learn from each other??s failures and successes.

A community should be formed out of those who have similar functions with the revolution. As an example, writers should get to know each other personally. Website owners have common problems and need to build community to deal with those common problems. People who write letters to the editor should get to know each other.

We have to start working in groups. Join the pack.

FP: It would be very hard to start working in groups because our society is so divided, no?

Warner: Yes, and we must face a fact about getting together in groups. Our civilization may have the Golden Rule as its ideal moral law, but let??s face it, we all fall short. We are endlessly divided with gripes, feuds and sore history. Hindus don??t trust the Christians; blacks have a grudge with whites, and so on. And there are further divisions within each group.

We must face the political reality today. We either learn to work together on a common political ground or become extinct like Buddhism in Afghanistan. We must have ambassadors between groups. If Protestant Christians get together to deal with Political Islam, they should invite Hindus and Orthodox Christians. Their mutual history of suffering at the hands of Political Islam can be a starting point of a political community. On this basis we can talk and work together.

FP: The task ahead is to confront a lot of ignorance, especially in the media.

Warner: Absolutely, every columnist, politician, preacher, priest, rabbi, artist, writer, professor, or correspondent who makes a statement, comment or conclusion about Political Islam and does not make reference to the death of 270,000,000 victims of jihad, dhimmitude, or the doctrine of Political Islam must be challenged about their ignorance. Every leader in every area must learn the history of dhimmitude, slavery and the life of Mohammed.

The Dhimmi Revolution must get in all leaders?? faces and confront them with their ignorance. This has to be without blame. Our leaders are not stupid, but ignorant. And the reason they are ignorant is they grew up in a culture where their teachers were dhimmis, who submitted to Political Islam by remaining ignorant about our history of dhimmitude. These leaders bear the burden of 1400 years of ignorance. Each of them share the psychosis of the molested mind. A mind in denial and fear caused by the violence of dualistic Political Islam.

Our Dhimmi Revolution is about confronting ignorance. We must first educate ourselves and then our political opponents, the near enemy??the apologists.

FP: Can you talk a little bit more about strategy?

Warner: Our strategy must deal with three of the near enemy??the universities, the media and politicians. From a strategic standpoint they are similar. They are organizations that have a small number of middle managers and leaders. This means having a small target list to pressure, lobby and persuade. For instance, a letter to the editor at a paper should not only go to the opinion page editor but up and down the chain of command. Good information should permeate the organization.

Somewhere out there must be some software people who can help us form community and spread information to the right people. As an example: this type of software could be applied to an ongoing letters-to-the-editor group. Fellow writers could communicate with each other, build community and attract new writers, select targets and have organizational email lists of the managers and leaders of the targeted organization. Some of this is being done today, but it must become organized, coordinated and ongoing.

We must utilize the web for community and strategy. But we must also be in rooms with other people we recognize, be with groups who visit politicians and others we want to influence and persuade.

FP: So how do we teach ourselves?

Warner: Some of us must start teaching those who want to know. CSPI has seen that there are many who don??t want to read about the doctrine or history of Political Islam. It is too frightening and depressing. But put them in a group and they love to hear about it and ask questions. There is a change in the air. Some churches are having lectures and classes. The few must teach the many. To take part in the Dhimmi Revolution, you first take the antidote to dhimmitude, knowledge.

FP: How about the universities? The truth about Political Islam is almost not even permitted there.

Warner: The universities are our number one target. Their influence is felt by the politicians and the media. At present the near enemies own the schools. The state universities offer some special opportunities. They are supposed to be in the business of knowledge and they are supported by our tax dollars. We must make demands that the schools teach the history of jihad, dhimmitude, the Tears of Jihad. We can use civil rights lawsuits that claim discrimination and bigotry in the history departments.

Imagine the uproar we can make by insisting that the full history of slavery be taught. We want all of this history taught, not just the West African limited edition. We have to learn the history of white slavery, Hindu slavery, African slavery taught at the taxpayers?? schools. We must know how dualistic Islam enslaved all races, religions and cultures. Arabic has more words for slaves that any other language. We demand the end of ignorance about the history of Political Islam. It is our civil right and we must use every means possible to have the right to know our history of dhimmitude, death and slavery, particularly in a state-funded school.

Universities are a constant forum for Political Islam. We need to have groups visit the campuses and ask good questions. We must harangue, harass, pressure, and make visits to professors, department heads, deans and pressure for full debate. The department of humanities, women??s studies, history, political science, African and Middle Eastern studies departments are all target rich environments. We must always push to have the full and true doctrine of Political Islam taught.

FP: What??s after the universities?

Warner: Our politicians. We must use the politicians to pressure the state universities. And that means that we must pressure the politicians. Their ignorance will be our point of attack. We must constantly confront our leaders and show them the ways they speak and act like dhimmis. We must show how there is a cure for dhimmitude: the knowledge of the doctrine and history of Political Islam.

We must repeatedly bring up the lack of actual knowledge. We must demand that all politicians know what Sharia law is and what it means. We must demand that politicians learn the political doctrine of Islam. We must demand they know what a dhimmi is. The duality of Islamic ethics must be put before them. Every politician should know the numbers killed in jihad.

Mohammed??s politics and character must be known. Once you know who Mohammed was, the next Muslim who bends your ear will be heard in a different tone. Every school board member, council member, legislator, and other elected officials must be visited and asked questions about his/her knowledge of Islam??s first politician, Mohammed.

FP: Overall, there has to be a massive tactic of exposing ignorance.

Warner: Yes, and shaming ignorance. Any scholar of Political Islam will tell you that it is easy to learn about Political Islam and Mohammed. What is the most amazing thing about Political Islam is the grotesque ignorance by people who are otherwise well versed. We must shame our professors, thinkers, politicians, and media types with the ignorance.

We must also shame our artists and intellectuals regarding their lack of knowledge about Mohammed??s persecution of artists and intellectuals. Each time Political Islam kills and threatens another artist or intellectual, we must attack the denial of our effete thinkers. We must show the artists and intellectuals their ignorance and dhimmitude and invite them to join the Dhimmi Revolution and produce art to free their civilization from dhimmitude.

In the end, the near enemy must understand that any statement, comment or opinion they make about Political Islam that does not mention violent jihad and Mohammed s based upon ignorance. The constant question that every follower of Political Islam, or apologist for Political Islam, must answer is, ??What did Mohammed do or Allah say?? It is the only question and we must learn to answer it as well.

When we shame the apologists for their ignorance it must be without rancor. But they must face that their opinions about Political Islam show an ignorance about our dhimmi history, and the deaths of 270,000,000 victims of jihad.

FP: So some final words?

Warner: To win the Dhimmi Revolution, we must work as a community. We have to address the frequent hope seen on the web when someone proposes a great legal solution to our problem about Political Islam. But no matter what your idea is or how good it is, it doesn??t matter. CSPI is aware of one Congressman who has the slightest awareness about Political Islam. Before we can implement any political ideas we must have a political base. At this time, we don??t need great solutions, we need to prepare a trained political base before we can do anything. We must take the Dhimmi Revolution to every Congressman and every Senator and every state legislator before we can get a single bill passed.

The Dhimmi Revolution is to build community, know the far enemy, confront the near enemy.

In summary, we have finished the first stage of our struggle to defend our civilization??know the enemy and its dualistic politics and dualistic ethics. The age of individuals is coming to an end and we must enter the phase of grassroots politics. We are too weak and divided to confront Political Islam, the far enemy. We must first confront the near enemy, our apologists for Political Islam. The doctrine and history of Political Islam is the weapon we can use to reveal our near enemy??s ignorance about Mohammed. We must turn to building community so that we can work in groups to do the necessary political work. We must harness existing groups and create special interest groups designed to carry the Dhimmi Revolution to the universities, politicians, artists, intellectuals and the media.

FP: Bill Warner, thank you for joining Frontpage Interview.

Warner: Thank you Jamie.

Notes:

[1] Thomas Sowell, Race and Culture, BasicBooks, 1994, p. 188.

[2] Woman??s Presbyterian Board of Missions, David Livingstone, p. 62, 1888.

[3] David B. Barrett, Todd M. Johnson, World Christian Trends AD 30-AD 2200, William Carey Library, 2001, p. 230, table 4-10.

[4] Koenard Elst, Negationism in India, Voice of India, New Delhi, 2002, pg. 34.

[5] Barrett and Johnson, table 4-1.

Psycho4Bud
02-21-2007, 04:41 PM
Had a bit of a discussion with the folks the other day about this stuff. OMG!! Hard core dems to the bone........what a treat. They're all for Afghanistan but not Iraq. What they fail to realize is that this is a Holy war waged by Muslim extremists agains anyone who's not. You CAN'T take this as an individual country by country matter because of the religious base.

It's to the point now where the GOOD people of Islam have to make a stand against their own...........unfortunately this goes against the Quran............Catch 22.

Have a good one!:s4:

Bong30
02-21-2007, 10:52 PM
i have said at neuseum..... Islam needs a simple reformation.

I am hearing some moderates stand....but we need about 500 million stand up and say enough is enough.....

when it is more important to be an Iraqi and not a Sunni....Shia....,enough will be enough.....

when christians, and jews (infidels) are not second class citizens, enough will be enough.......


till then......lets get it on.

Torog
02-22-2007, 12:23 PM
Howdy Psycho4Bud and Bong,

I hear ya both..yer both right..I apologize for such a long piece,but it's worth the read,I wish the anti-wars here,could sustain their attention long enough to read it,but they usually stop reading,when they come across anything that goes against what their propaganda masters have taught them. For instance,if for no other reason,they should read the truth about muslim slavers and all of the holocausts at the hands of muslims,since the inception of Islam. Liberals have been trying to re-write the history books,to make it seem as though there were only white slave traders and that they were all from the South.

I'll be surprised if a single anti-war here,reads this article and gives a honest reply to it,it seems that they have accepted their dhimmitude and have no desire to break free of it. Their main concern,is being friends with some of the most evil and horrific people to walk the earth ,since the nazi regime..they lament the loss of these 'friends' and believe that if we would just apologize and make-up,everything will be hunky-dory..give me a break !

Have a good one ! :jointsmile:

Zimzum
02-22-2007, 02:55 PM
Sure Islam could use some changes. Even in todays world Christianity could use some changes as well. If an Islamic state wants to see me as a 2nd class citizen then so be it. I'm not gonna cry myself to sleep. I am already seen as a 2nd class citizen in America because I smoke marijuana. If you want me to fight fire with fire and hate them along side you, I will not do it as hate on any side doesn't help anything. You are just as paranoid if not worse then, those who claim 9/11 was an inside job. Let them hate me! I'm not one to worry about what others think of me.


There is no such thing as a culture that is only partially Islamic

American! We also got Buddhist, Jewish and Wicken cultures going on over here. Maybe you should join us?

Zimzum
02-22-2007, 04:16 PM
Also on a side note.. stay with me till the end and maybe what I say will make since.


Christianity year = 2007
Islamic year = 1428

Difference of 579 years.. But the Islamic calendar is slightly shorter in days then Gregorian calendar. So I'm gonna use 600AD as the starting point of Islam.

At the start of Islams beginning, the church was considered to be on the start of its Medieval stages of its life. Not quite a pleasant time for Christianity or a friendly welcome to a new world religion. While the church today isn't as bad or controlling as it once was, I think the past actions of Christians play a hugh role in the hatred we have today for each other. IMO the events that played a part of there beginning where like parents today teaching kids that violence is ok.

Major reform didn't happen until 1517 ?? 1648 AD. for the church. If Islam is only 1428 years old it still has 89 more years to go before it reaches the first turning point that Christianity took.

Look at it now.. We're all fighting.. When Islam makes charges will a new religion start this process all over again? Expect a new religious war in 1300-1400 years down the road. United Atheist League VS Allies Atheist League.. Winners take home a Wii!


Ref link:
History of the Christian church (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm)

Psycho4Bud
02-22-2007, 04:34 PM
Look at it now.. We're all fighting.. When Islam makes charges will a new religion start this process all over again? Expect a new religious war in 1300-1400 years down the road. United Atheist League VS Allies Atheist League.. Winners take home a Wii!


Ref link:
History of the Christian church (http://www.ccel.org/s/schaff/history/About.htm)

I hear that the Otter faction is on the verge of having WMD's!!

By the way, any idea when the new episodes start?

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

Zimzum
02-23-2007, 11:27 PM
Did I upset the three conservatives of this site?


By the way, any idea when the new episodes start?

March 7th.

delusionsofNORMALity
02-25-2007, 03:38 PM
try as i might to ignore this thread, it won't leave the screen. the starting post was at once incredibly ignorant and surprisingly astute and i find myself compelled to clarify. at least i can state the obvious.

the simple fact of the matter is that most all religion is merely a primitive form of politics, the politics of the absolute. where christianity's western base has advanced through industrialization, the cultures surrounding islam have become stagnant. while the west and the east built cultures based on this industrialization, the middle east was considered little more than a way station. until we found a use for oil. once those massive oil reserves were discovered the west realized their value and the games began.

those games of corporate greed and political corruption seem to be what have brought us to this sorrowful pass. billions of dollars were pumped into the area, money for pipelines, money for ports, money for roads, money to grease the palms of leaders who were little more than warlords. everything for business and nothing for people. to protect these massive expenditures despotic regimes were set in place. crushing the populace or doling out crumbs, these petty dictators grew fat off the west's desire for their nations' resources and insulated themselves from their populations' despair with palaces and luxuries imported from the west. their children were sent off to western universities while their subjects wallowed in ignorance and the gulf between the "haves" and the "have nots" grew wider and wider. all of it supported by an international lust for power and control. where trouble arose, western interests were always there to prop up an ailing tyranny with a fresh supply of arms and the technology to quash resistance.

as is always the case, tyrants fell. the unwashed masses will always rebel against their masters and as the despots fled, a power vacuum grew. where would the people find leaders to guide them in their new found freedom? where would they find men with the education necessary to operate their economies? the church, of course. even the limited education provided by religion is better than the total lack of experience found in the masses and islamic clerics were more than willing to step into the shoes of their former masters. thus is modern theocracy born.

so now we are back to political islam. created to rule over a population trapped in the 17th century, armed to the teeth with western technology and thrust into the modern world. where is such a creature to go for guidance, but to the glory of its past. they have reached back into their history to when they were the prosperous traders to the world and even further back to the times of conquest when their military might was nearly unequaled to make sense of a world from which they have been largely excluded. by expanding on the teachings of their faith, they see themselves as the true masters of the world instead of its backward stepchildren. they see themselves as fighting against those who had propped up their former oppressors, not as petty criminal terrorizing innocent populations. for decades the west has used the ancient arabic traditions of graft and corruption for profit, now the children of islam are using those same traditions to undermine the power of more culturally advanced nations who would like to believe themselves to be beyond such primitive devices.

our war is not with islam. it is with the ignorance that we ourselves have helped to foster in the oil rich deserts of the middle east. we now find ourselves faced with our own past. political islam is no better or worse than the political christianity of the middle ages, but in this age of instant everything its proponents are much more lethal than the crusaders of our history. we have helped to create this situation and "turning the deserts to glass" is not an acceptable option. we cannot crush these backward philosophies, we must somehow find a way to incorporate them into the international community.

this is, of course, an oversimplification of history. it doesn't take into account zionist fanaticism (excuse the redundancy), personal grudges, internal grievances or a score of other factors; but the basic historical framework is there. i'm no islamic apologist or liberal coward willing to roll over at the first hint of trouble, but i do believe that any answers to our current predicament will be found by understanding and rectifying the cause and not by demolishing the symptom.

well i feel much better now. maybe my mood can change now.

medicinal
02-25-2007, 08:59 PM
this is, of course, an oversimplification of history. it doesn't take into account zionist fanaticism (excuse the redundancy), personal grudges, internal grievances or a score of other factors; but the basic historical framework is there. i'm no islamic apologist or liberal coward willing to roll over at the first hint of trouble, but i do believe that any answers to our current predicament will be found by understanding and rectifying the cause and not by demolishing the symptom.

well i feel much better now. maybe my mood can change now.
Absolutely a voice of reason amidst the chaos. My feeling exactly. It is up to the intelligent beings on all sides to settle our differences. What we have now in charge on both sides, are extremests. Lets start thinking for a change, towards a change. There must be some semblance of intelligence left in the world that advocates a peaceful solution to our differences, maybe someone will step up.

delusionsofNORMALity
02-25-2007, 09:45 PM
.... It is up to the intelligent beings on all sides to settle our differences....
....There must be some semblance of intelligence left in the world....

there is greed, unenlightened self interest, will that do. it would have to be a win/win situation before anyone would consider negotiations and that's not even the hard part. the real difficulty would be convincing the parties involved that there was any benefit to peace when warfare is so lucrative.


there's a reason my mood is permanently set on depressed

Bong30
02-26-2007, 03:55 PM
we cannot crush these backward philosophies, we must somehow find a way to incorporate them into the international community.



Very well put....this is the only Part of it i had a major Problem with....

How do you incorperate people that want to kill you?

How do you incorperate people that rule with Despotism?

How do you incorperate people that will put you wife, and Mom In a berka and backhand them for looking men in the eye....(taliban Justice)?


We will incorperate them AFTER the reformation......

This is out there I know.......If you turn the place into glass with that start the reformation? How do you start the reformation?

Will Iran Nuke Isreal? Do we want to find out? with you using words like Zionist...Might be OK with you.....????

delusionsofNORMALity
02-27-2007, 12:29 AM
How do you incorporate people that want to kill you?
How do you incorporate people that rule with Despotism?

i'm sure many people in the middle east are saying the same sorts of things about us. just as in the us, there are people there who want no part of constant warfare. it is leaders who start these things, leaders who rule through fear and the desperation of their people. it's the people who have to come together, the warmongering leaders can all rot in whatever hell they please.

SwirlyMass
02-27-2007, 01:22 AM
FP: So what should our strategy be?

Warner: Our strategymust be the salvation of our precious civilization. We must save our very selves.






Personally there is only a select part of "our precious civilization" that I would be willing to save and it sure as hell isn't the part with all the iPod's...

medicinal
03-04-2007, 06:05 AM
Well, I guess the time has come for thermonuclear warfare, the population is growing beyond sustainable parameters and there are a lot of crazy leaders, ours included. They tell me the best place to be is at ground zero as you won't even know what happened. There are advantages, no funeral expenses to start, no worrying about nuclear war anymore, or how our children will fare in this fucked up world,. just you're here one second and cosmic dust the next. If you have a belief in an afterlife, this will be your chance to check it out, Hell, maybe even the infadels will get some virgin action. Anyway the real bummer would be if you were the only one left alive, left to rot from radiation poisening, just some wonderful things to think about before you vote some more assholes in that like war!

delusionsofNORMALity
03-04-2007, 03:08 PM
.... just some wonderful things to think about before you vote some more assholes in that like war!

i find it hard to believe that w and his cronies actually enjoy the thought of death and destruction, that would take a real psychopath and he is merely a high functioning moron. i think these fools honestly believe that they have a true vision of the righteous path to a glorious future. that makes them even more frightening.

and i thought i was delusional!

Bong30
03-04-2007, 04:17 PM
War is what humans do......

period.

That is what we are good at.


Peace is a dream...death is real.

delusionsofNORMALity
03-04-2007, 04:25 PM
War is what humans do......

war is what humans have always done.

this doesn't mean we aren't capable of moving away from the follies of the past. embracing the baser instincts of humanity is a sure fire way of ensuring our destruction.

Bong30
03-04-2007, 05:44 PM
Im just saying,,,Im no history major.

Earth History=....is war, with Peace breaking out every once and a while.....

Before Conservitve, republican..... I am A REALIST....

That is why MAD worked with ratioanal countries......Now we dont even have MAD. Great....


I dont want war, but i realize we need to either BOMB, Islam into a reformation, or hope that it will just implode in on its self.......

while it is imploding in on its self (secular violance)though....it might take us with it....




UNTIL THEY LOVE THERE CHILDEREN MORE THEN THEY HATE US......WAR....

(radical Islam highjacked the religon , and is holding the world hostge like Dr evil, but for real.....)

I love my childeren more than i hate them, but now the best defence is a kick the shit out of them offence.......

Remember 9-11...... I say lets go into Saudi Arabia and get those text books right HUH???.....Im a nut job yes...... I know the enemy, within and afar.

Mrs. Greenjeans
03-04-2007, 07:00 PM
. the real difficulty would be convincing the parties involved that there was any benefit to peace when warfare is so lucrative.

Very nicely put.

Mrs. Greenjeans
03-04-2007, 07:02 PM
Personally there is only a select part of "our precious civilization" that I would be willing to save and it sure as hell isn't the part with all the iPod's...
What is the correlation? Can you explain this sentence further please?