2007 TGA Strain Guide

[Subcool]

I finally updated all our medical offerings with full details collected from field data and test grows.

Mission Statement

In this distressing times of today with so many at sick people the need for fine genetics worldwide was needed. A small group of cannabis breeders united and developed the finest medical cannabis possible and the ultimate delivery method was born. The sound of roaring engines appeared on the horizon in the rural dankland country side, a sound that hasn't been heard in ages. A group of Cannabis green painted F4U corsairs, Keep your eye to the sky and watch as they spread the seeds that will heal the nations.

Hello readers my name is Subcool. Some of you may follow my work behind the camera and some may not be familiar. I have been a grower and toker for 30+ years. I lead a team of breeders in a search for better hybrids. We feel most of the genetics available today fall short of the potency needed for the medical community and work hard creating ultra potent but still extremely taste cannabis strains. I am lucky enough to be engaged to MzJill so we work closely as a team, she bring a feminine touch to our crosses and provides some amazing lay outs for our photography.
We have several proven hybrids and also new creations in the works, our main goal when making a new strain is to either to combine the characteristics of two strains or to replicate as close as possible a clone only phenotype and provide these to the Medical Cannabis Community. When combining strains it is usually to work in better or different taste such as a high potency variety such as Jackâ??s Cleaner using Space Queen, or adding purple color to a high potency strain such as Apollo-13 using Black Russian like we did with our Sputnik lines. When combining hybrids there is always variation but with proper selection and a good genetic pool and lots of tracking new hybrids can be created that are remarkably stable and just phenomenal flavors and potency combining the best of both parents.
Jill is an extremely accomplished hydro grower and her first donation to TGA was the Black Russian and the Orange Velvet, recently she regained her Sweet tooth #3 and her First cross Jillybean is an amazing combination of Orange and Pineapple and Mango with a short dense plant structure that delivers large yields. Badboy works with Hash Plant and Killer Queen and the new Hempstar.
Badboy is able to test large runs of seeds for us to determine their genetic patterns. TOB our newest contributor works closely with the medical community and has re created Sputnik 2.0. I focus on new male selection and over see all crosses making the final determination if it meets our criteria. My Greatest joy comes from teaching others the art of Dank if you have any grow questions, Subcool, MzJill, Badboy, TOB, and TGA can be found visiting Cannabis.com and at BreedBaY Welcome (http://www.breedbay.co.uk) in there support forums.
Our Medical Cannabis Choices


Jacks Cleaner II
Jack the Ripper
Vortex
Jillybean
Agent Orange
The Third Dimension
SpaceJill
Sputnik 2.0


Jacks Cleaner II
JC f1 X JC X SQ(jtr)

If you follow my work at all you know JC is my favorite breeding mom. I can use her to test males or increase the potency of any strain. I truly feel itâ??s the most dominant strain I have ever worked with. She is also the most potent plant I have ever worked with, with no ceiling when it comes to high. We have used back crossing with the f1 to recreate her in seed form. Test grows and severe stress shows the new cross to be stable and extremely potent, a soaring 8-9 week Sativa Haze Also used for breeding work as males are JC dominant.

1.Phenotypes -Moderately stable with light Jack the Ripper traits. Lemony sweet to the smell, almost as lemony as the JC, though there may be a few phenotypes with a lighter, lemon smell, probably from the JTR influences.C2:
2.Height-Medium to heavy stretch/ Colas swell late
3.Yield-Medium / Moderate trim work
4.Indoor/ Outdoor
5.Best way to grow- Topped and placed in bud early due to stretch.
6.Harvest Window_8-10
7.Sativa/ Indica 70/30
8.Hybrid- Pluton X Purple Haze X Lambsbread X NL X Jack Herer X JTR Male
9.High type- Intense, trippy, visual, spacey, pain relief
10.Makes very usual bubble tasting and smelling like lemons


:jointsmile:

[Subcool]

Jack the Ripper
Jacks Cleaner P1 X Space Queen
Dank Dairy Certified

As good as JC bx was, I learned a lot in 6 years breeding and growing almost full time and I was confident I could find a better male using patterns to find the recessive drug traits. So instead of continuing a cube I wasnâ??t 100% satisfied with the outcross I decided to start again using two different lines to establish the best. JTR is the first outcross to be completed using a Spacequeen male; the second will be a Cindy99 outcross. The goal here is to establish the best possible outcross to cube back to JCf1. The cool part is the outcrosses are sometimes better than the parent strains, I feel this is the case with JTR. The Lemon tart of JC has combined with the candy mango flavor of the Spacequeen to create a resinous marvel. Maintaining JCâ??s heavy structure and potency the female dominated this cross with the exception of adding some sweet mango flavor and smoothing out JCâ??s harsh toke. Many people who have smoked the JC dom pheno and JC in the same sitting claim the JTR is better.

1.Phenotypes -Moderately stable with heavy Jacks Cleaner traits.
2.Height-Look for the Short Pheno/ Colas swell late
3.Yield-Medium-Heavy / Moderate trim work
4.Indoor/ Outdoor
5.Best way to grow- Untopped and vegged to a full bush.
6.Harvest Window_8-10 weeks
7.Sativa/ Indica 80/20
8.Hybrid-Pluton X Purple Haze X Lambsbread X NL X Jack Herer X Romulan X Cindy99BCGA
9.High type-Intense, trippy, visual, phase shifting, increased heart rate, heavy crash increased appetite, pain relief, paranoia
10.Lemon mango pine hash/ Taste like lemon hash
11.Voted top 10 strain in 2006 High Times Top 10

[Subcool]

Vortex
(Apollo-13 X Space Queen)
My oldest head stash crossed with my new favorite. Both have similar pungent, rotten fruit, baby poo smells. Both carry heavy potency and copious amounts of resins. The resulting outcross fulfills my desire to have Apollo-13 in seed form even before we continue with the cubing. Sharing traits of both mom and dad some phenos lean so much towards Apollo even MzJill canâ??t tell the difference in a blind taste. My favorite is a sweet sour combo very similar to Tinybomb but I yielded close to 4 ounces with minimum training. She is easier to grow and trim than mom. This strain is so good Jill agreed we could cull Candy Store in favor of the sweeter pheno we call Cosmos.

1.Phenotypes - Variation with phenotypes like both parent strains
2.Height-Short to medium with wide bushing and loads of bud sites perfect for SGROG
3.Yield-Medium/ I pulled 3.5 Ounces from a 40â?� Bush
4.Indoor/ Outdoor matures very fast
5.Best Way to grow- Wide sagging bush with hundreds of bud sites. Lots of stakes and string
6.Harvest Window-45-55 days
7.Sativa/ Indica 80/20
8.Hybrid-Genius X P75 X Romulan X Cindy99
9.High type-heart racing, energizing, confusing, stoned, ripped curled under, stupidity
10.Smells like Mango Snapple with lemon/ Taste like sweetened lemonade.
Very unique Cindy like plant with a bizarre twist, very potent


My New favorite!

[Subcool]

Jillybean ( Orange Velvet X Space Queen)

Jill was lucky enough to be gifted this amazing Orange Skunk and they day we smoked the finished bud we knew we had to outcross it with our Space Queen male. You donâ??t really have to be a master breeder to figure out Orange and Pineapple Mango will be a good combination. The resulting outcross is remarkably stable and is close to a 50/50 representation of the parents. Topped only once in grows into a nice short bush with lots of side branching and multi heads. Flavors range from Orange, Tang, Candy, Mango, and Apple. The cross works really well in SOG or SCROG.. Very large stems and huge top colas make this an easy strain to grow in any medium.
We had 5 females in our bud room and 4 could be clones there so similar same height same growth speed and all have that Dank Orange smell. Very good mood elevator and general euphoria are experienced while high on this cross. Lime green with Vibrant Orange Hairs with temperature drops it can turn a deep burgundy to maroon.
1.Phenotypes -Very stable Orange-Mango 50/50 Phenotypes
2.Height-Short and Stocky
3.Yield-Very Heavy/ Easy Trim
4.Indoor/ Outdoor
5.Best way to grow-Single topping forms multi heads
6.Harvest Window-8 weeks
7.Sativa/Indica 30/70
8.Hybrid-Unknown Orange Skunk X Romulan X Cindy99BCGA
9.High type-Happy, mood enhancing, humorous, energetic
10.Smells like orange skunk or tang/ Taste so much like Dreamcicles you will not believe it!
11.Extremely up beat and happy buzz great for depression and bad days.
Featured on the Cover of Heads magazine 2006 Best Of

[Subcool]

Agent Orange
Orange Velvet X JC x SQ (jtr)

This is the first cross that Jill and I have worked on together crossing our two lines by using our now selected JTR male to add some punch and Lemon to this overly orange strain. It has long been on the list of projects to combine JC and an orange strain, it has actually been done but it a different way. Juan Moore actually selfed the JC mom and pollinated a small bud of Cali O. This experiment produced an amazing smelling strain he called 7-up, although I have never had the chance to try it I fell in love with the idea. We however took no short cuts and actually out crossed the female JC in order to produce a male breeding pool.

Crossing of two lines expect variation leaning to both sides with the desired female having the most JC attributes.
Agent Orange is a very good producer with extremely resinous large dense buds. The smell is amazing with hints of Oranges, Lemons and the smell of a Whiskey Sour cocktail. The strain contains pigments that have the ability to turn Maroon, purple with cool nights. The buzz is up and motivating and make smile.

1) Phenotypes- Two main variations one short and thick and one taller and more resinous.
2) Height- Very tall block head colas
3) Yield- Very Heavy but all in last weeks
4) Indoor/Outdoor
5) Best Way to Grow- Top and bud early
6) Harvest Window-55-65 days
7) Sativa/ Indica 50/50
8) Hybrid- Local Orange Skunk x Jacks Cleaner X Space Queen
9)High type- Strong and tasty leaves a Orange after taste and an almost trippy high.
10) Taste like a cross between Oranges and sour mix
11) My largest yields this run came from this strain

[Subcool]

The Third Dimension
A-13 X JC X SQ (jtr)
Aka 3D
Dank Dairy Certified

This amazing three way was created during the pollination of Jacks Cleaner 2 and even though that was my focus this cross really has me interested. A-13 is a known dominant mother plant and as you know I created JTR mainly as a breeding pool for JC2 so now we have a male thatâ??s better than the JCB father as far as potency and stability are concerned. If you never worked with another male Space Dude would be the only one you needed. We took it a step further and worked him with the F1 JC mom to create JTR and from that we choose a SQ dominant male. Everyone I talk to agrees this is going to make history.

Medium Yielding Hybrid with strong speedy buzz
1.Phenotypes â??Mainly Sativa with incredible speed and high resin production
2.Height-Medium stretch/ Triangle shaped Colas
3.Yield-Medium / Easy to Trim
4.Indoor/ Outdoor
5.Best way to grow- Topped and vegged to a 30â?� Bush
6.Harvest Window_45-50 days
7.Sativa/ Indica 60/40
8.Hybrid-Apollo-13 X Jack the Ripper
9.High type-Warm soft waves of high and very easy to smoke
10.Tropical flavors range from Coconuts, pineapples, Kiwi and fruit punch
11. Incredibly fast plant great for making Red bubble

Featured on the cover of Heads magazine 50th addition

[Subcool]

SpaceJill ( Space Queen F2)
Dank DairyCertified

This cross was created out of a demand for this amazing lost strain. Selecting the best female based on yield, potency, taste, and buzz we crossed out best Phenotype C with our proven Male Space Queen. Vic High has long been a mentor and I have always been a huge fan of Killer Queen, I never started these cause I wasnâ??t a fan of Romberry
I had these seeds stashed so long I wasnâ??t sure they would even germinate. I was surprised how much better the cross tasted than my favorite Apollo-13. Tasting and smelling of candy, mangos and dried fruit she is Jillâ??s daily smoke. This strain has been distributed freely and the feed back on it is amazing, reports from both indoors and out make this second hand cross a main line TGA strain.

1) Phenotypes-Medium variation Leaning from C99 to Romulan
2) Height- Thin and lanky unless topped
3) Yield- Medium
4) Indoor/ Outdoor
5) Best Way to Grow- Needs canopy management like Scrog or lots of support stakes
6) Harvest Window-50-60 days
7) Sativa/ Indica 70/30
8) F2 Recreation of one of the best tasting strains using a year to select parents
9)High type- Speedy, trippy, intense, paranoid , motivating, pain relief
10) Taste like sour semi rotting fruit or mangos like sour candy worms
11) Jill's head stash:p

[Subcool]

TGA Canadian Strains
BubbaGum ( Bush HP X Grimm Male*)
Grimm Reaper ( JC x Grimm Male*)
Zorro ( HP X Grimm Male*)
Bigfoot ( BCHP X Grimm Male)
Ozzy (Black Domina X Grimm Male*)
Valencia ( OV X Grimm Male*)
Royal Revenge ( KQ X Grimm Male*)
*This male was selected from an original Brothers Grimm Mix pack. While it smells and passes on Cindy traits it could just as easily be Apollo or P-75.



Special Addition Releases
Danielle ( Dannyboy X Space Queen)
Hash Queen ( Cuddle Fish Hash Plant X Space Queen)

Bubba Gum
Known in the great white north as a heavy Indica with good yields the mother is an Older Skunk Hybrid that has traveled around Canada as a clone only strain.It is rumored to be the mother of Tuity Fruity, It was very hard to aquire the f1 cutting so we have included it in the new line. Everyone has a TGA favorite and variety is the spice of life. This strain really reminds me of a Hawaiian Indica I grew out once from a good friend in Wyoming. Also known to produce heavy munchies.Buds are so dence Badboy said they would dent sheetrock when grown with CO2.Looking for something that Really taste like Bubblegum and not lawn Grass?
Sticky Lungs recently finished it from seed and confirmed its amazing flavor and potential.

Medium to heavy yielding spicy stinky Indica
Indica Hybrid
1) Phenotypes -Very Little variation plants all grow short and stocky.
2) Height- MShort thick Indica style bushes with wide leaves
3) Yield-Very Good from a bud of this quality
4) Indoor/Outdoor/Greenhouse
5) Best way to grow-Outdoors like a tree indoors topped early and vegged to 30-36â?�
6) Harvest Window-8 weeks
7) Sativa/Indica 30/70
8) Hybrid- Clone only Mom Bush Hash X Grimm Male
9) High type- Warm Fuzzy can't get enough of this taste till I fall out happy
10) Smells- Sweet like pink bubblegum taste so much like Hubba Bubba its amazing
11) The Biggest Potsnob I know other than MzJill loves this strain!

[Subcool]

Grimm Reaper
Jacks Cleaner X Grimm male

In our reserch we have discovered that the lemon tartness of JC combines well with the
fruity mango taste of Brothers Grim work. We have now tested all of the new Grimm crosses and the results are amazing.Grimm Reaper packs on large hard buds covered in ultra white trichomes. Maturing in 8 weeks the combo of sour and sweet has created quite and uproar and the hardest decision is the best choice Grimm Reaper or JC2. The strain is very fast germs easy and is fast out of the soil.The high is energizing but the whole time your smoking you can't get over the amazing flavor. Unlike some of our super potent smaller med strains Grimm Reaper is a hard working seriously potent producer.

1) Phenotypes -Very Potent with slight variation leaning toward JC or Cindy
2) Height- Tall with classic tree shape
3) Yield-Test plants pulled over 5 ounces in soil
4) Indoor/Outdoor/Greenhouse
5) Best way to grow-Untooped large bushes do very well.
6) Harvest Window-8 weeks
7) Sativa/Indica 70/30
8) Hybrid- Jacks Cleaner X Original Brothers Grimm Male
9) High type- Up Elevated mode,some white noise,comes on fast and hard and stays strong.
10) Smells Sour lemons and sweet candy reminds me of a lemon head
11) Incredible cross that is over looked do to JTR and JC2 much sweeter and smoother smoke with same potency.

[Subcool]

Big Foot
BCHP X Grimm male
Dank Dairy Certified

This strain is well known up north due to a grower named Krusty showing off some torso sized colas in a thread on OG years ago. Legendary for HUGE yields I was never impressed with her finished smell so we have worked the new Sour fruit smelling Grimm male into her Massive genetics. I have seen soccer ball sized buds off the mother plant and was extremely excited when Badboy secured the clone from friends. This make up is from the largest female I have ever seen in DWC. It will also grow well with another slightly smaller female named Bush hash used in the next cross.

From Dairy Dank test labs:
Easy to grow, loves high nutrient levels, this plant was almost yellow while being fed 1.2 EC and needed 1.7EC to be happy, also demands nitrogen supplement during early bloom to stay green long enough to pack on the weight.

Smells really really sweet, these above were vegged for 4 weeks under 500w CFL vegged in 6.5L profit coir and also bloomed in the same pot, i imagine these would have been larger if i had given them more root space and auto fed them rather than hand watered, but still they have buds that measure roughly 12".

Had no pest problems with these at all, likes to dry out in between watering and slows down on feeding considerably at week 6 and starts pumping out lots of resin.
1) Phenotypes â??Large heavy super resinous females
2) Height- Tall with towering colas
3) Yield-Our largest strain when done in commercial applications
4) Indoor/Outdoor/Greenhouse
5) Best way to grow-toped large bushes do very well.
6) Harvest Window-8 weeks
7) Sativa/Indica 30/70
8) Hybrid-Clone only large producing plant with heavy resins.
9) High type- Nice warm Indica buzz great for relaxing
10) Smells
11) Bigfoot has proven in the test lab to be everything we hoped for and more. The addition of Dank from the Brothers Grimm male has produced a resinous beast!

[Subcool]

Hash Plant X Space Queen
One of my all time favorite cash croppers combined with the best male I have ever worked with. Cuddlefish HP is pretty much an Icon strain indoors in the US thick short and dense with CO2 the buds get insanely heavy. I always gave HP a rating of 8 but with the addition of Space Queen this new limited addition cross is more a collectorâ??s strain now.

1.Phenotypes -Moderately stable with light Space Queen traits. Sweet as sugar to the smell, though there may be a few phenos with a light, rotten, fruity type smell from the space queen influences.
2.Height-Medium stretch/ Colas swell late
3.Yield-Medium / Moderate trim work
4.Indoor/ Outdoor
5.Best way to grow- Topped and placed in bud early due to stretch.
6.Harvest Window_8-10
7.Sativa/ Indica ?????
8.Hybrid- Hash Plant ( Sensi 1982) x Space Queen ( BCGA)
9.High type-Clean, clean, Intense, trippy, visual, spacey, pain relief,
10. Cuddlefish meets Spacequeen

[keeko]

wow, this is excellent work....I someday hope to be in your shoes, doing what your doing and enjoying life. Never stop doing what your doing.:thumbsup:

[Subcool]

Ozzy
Black Domina X Grimm male

I have long loved Sensiâ??s Original Description of Domina.
â??This full blooded Indica with large bracts will soon have you on your knees and begging for more. This harsh overpowering lady simply gushes sticky resin to which most men seem to have a fatal attraction. A word of warning: this powerful compact Indica has had a devastating effect on many a man, leaving them apparently beaten and whipped with a strange smile on their faces.â?�
I always figured it was a smallish plant due to there antiquated picture but Badboy found a cutting that produces and absolute monster of a female and just coated in resin and dank as it gets. A very spicy exotic smoke, very much like a good imported hash. This is a strain I have wanted to add for awhile and with the introduction of new genetics from the famed Grimm Brothers will add that fruity smell we are now known for.

Indica Hybrid with fast finish below 8 weeks.

[Subcool]

Danielle:
Dannyboy X Space Queen
This strain was created in limited addition for those that missed the first round of Dannyboy. Her flavor is enhanced cherry with long slim colas that reach deep into the canopy. Reminding me more of the Cherry Danny I found that was slightly smaller and more dank than the one we bred with we only made about 40 packs of these so once there gone she will just become another TGA legendâ?¦



1. Phenotypes -Moderately stable with light Dannyboy traits. Hints of fruit-vary from sweet to rotten fruit taste.
2. Height-Medium stretch/ Colas swell late
3. Yield-Medium / Moderate trim work
4. Indoor/ Outdoor
5. Best way to grow- Topped and placed in bud early due to stretch.
6. Harvest Window_8-10
7. Sativa/ Indica 80/20
8. Hybrid-Dannyboy x Space Queen
9. High type-Clean, Intense, trippy, visual, pain relief,
10. Known Phenotypes: Most of my pheno's were similar, the difference was how intense the Dannyboy traits came out. In
other words how, fruity and dank the different plants smelled.
12. 100% Full melt extreme potency.

Pictures by Professor

[Subcool]

Valencia
Orange Velvet X Grimm male


Team Canada could not wait to get a hold of Orange Velvet since a few years prior they lost the cutting of Erics Cali O I sent to them. The Orange flavor is something a grower never forgets how good it taste early in the morning and even though it isnâ??t a super potent strain everyone loves the taste. So it was high time to amp it up a bit and a big maroon girl was also placed in main breeding room. Time to amp up the orange and change the flavor. The Grimm male did his job and instead of Orange Juice you get more of a mango and tangerine smell and the speed of the Grimm male sped her up a good deal.

Medium Indica Hybrid with up giggly buzz and Tangy smell and taste.

1. Phenotypes â?? Broad Leaf Indica with wide leathery leaves
2. Height-Tall Stretch
3. Yield-heavy yields especially outdoors
4. Indoor/ Outdoor
5. Best way to grow- Topped and placed in bud early due to stretch.
Vegged out and placed out in spring she will look like an Orange tree by mid summer
6. Harvest Window-8 weeks
7. Sativa/ Indica 50/50
8. Hybrid-Orange Velvet X Grimm Male
9. High type-Happy Sunny weed great for active things and early morning baking
10. Known Phenotypes: Mostly OV dominant with some leaning towards Cindy

[freewheelinfrank]

Brothers Grimm got out of the business a few years ago, are they back now ?

[keeko]

no i believe subcool has been breeding some BG strains from when they were around and still has the genetics. Subcool correct me if im wrong

[budsmoker only]

damn great thread.. love lookin at beautiful weed plants and reading about what they are and shit... major props..

[Subcool]

I was lucky enough to collect a apollo-13 clone from Bro grimm as well as a few stash packs of Cindy and Grimm mix.

Keeko you are absolutly right :)

Sub

[keeko]

subcool, Jack the ripper looks like an excellent outdoor producer, just what im looking for, how does it do in very hot climates.....texas weather?

[Archelon]

What happened to the peachy Conquistador? And correct me if I'm wrong, wasn't there a cheese cross?

[Subcool]

subcool, Jack the ripper looks like an excellent outdoor producer, just what im looking for, how does it do in very hot climates.....texas weather?

I have reports from pretty much all over the us with her OD she don't mind heat at all :)

Drop me a report.


Sub

[keeko]

will do, thanks subcool

[X-ecutioner]

Hey subcool i'm new to the forums and i was checking out all of your articles and strains. I was going to buy some of your seeds from cannaseur and was wondering what you would recommend for a beginner . I'm mostly looking for a hard heady energetic high, and a really couch locked smashed stone. also was wondering if you have any plants with a little color to it like purple, pink, blue or whatever. thanks alot

[X-ecutioner]

any help?

[keeko]

Hey X......i think any strain of Subcools would be just what your looking for.....the write up that he has written about all his strains pretty much tell you what you will get if you buy the seeds.....i would spring for spacejill and Jack the Ripper.

[spankey]

i think he is asking which is the most forgiving and easy to grow. us noobies want our first few real grows to be a plant that is so forgiving that it will servive our stupidest mistakes. am i right x?

so subcool what do you recomend of your stains for us extream noobs.

[keeko]

in all honesty i think if i were a completel "nube" i would not like to spend a lot of money on top quality seeds just yet....it takes experience and not just knowledge to get excellent herb. Any plant can be forgiving to grow, it just takes a great grower to see the signs in the plant for things to watch out for.

my opinon would be to either start with bagseed or a cheaper breeder if you are completly new to growing. :twocents:

[spankey]

ya but there strains sound so nice. i have been reading and some strains are harder to grow then others. i have seen where it says ease of grow then rates them easy(good for beginners), moderate(good for those that have several grows under there belt), and expert(no explination needed). but none that sell his genetics do that rating system. his genetics are awsome and those pictures looked so good i wanted to smoke my moniter :D

[X-ecutioner]

i think he is asking which is the most forgiving and easy to grow. us noobies want our first few real grows to be a plant that is so forgiving that it will servive our stupidest mistakes. am i right x?

so subcool what do you recomend of your stains for us extream noobs.

yeah your pretty much right, i've grown a couple bagseeds plants and out of ten only one turned out female, so yeah i'm looking for a forgiving plant

[SDK SLAYER]

BUMP !

Sticky, this thread should be....

[bongerstonerd00d]

I wonder why they have taken about 30 bucks off all their seed prices. All used to be in 90.00 or so range, now they are 59.00 or so??.......hmmmm




b0nger

[r00tdoctor]

I plan on ordering a pack of jack the ripper or vortex cant make my mind up.