If their was ever nothing could their be something today?

[tonydh21]

I know we can ask who created god and who created him but the fact is if their was ever nothing their would be nothing today. So something has had to been here forever. What could it be...god maybe. What else! Do you think god is so stupid so simple that we can understand even a fraction of him? a ant understands us 1 million times more than we will ever understand god. God is real because we are here, because anything exists at all. Who can anybody with half a brain not see that. I am not a christian or muslim or jew or hindu or buda. I am man with common sence trying to find the truth. You need to find your own truth but never be so vain to think god dose not exist. That is egnorant beyond belivie.
I know I am not a perfect speller, I'm not perfeat at anything but at least I know it.

[mrdevious]

Wait a minute, why did you make 2 of the exact same threads under different titles?

[Matt the Funk]

SPAM?

[mrdevious]

SPAM?

lol, I'm starting to think so. He's made 3 threads with the same topic and argument, and all the same 5-year-old's understanding of grammatical structure and spelling.

[MastaChronic]

hmmm, he is using a childs argument.....using god to explain what cannot be explained yet by science.
i ask you this thread spammer....show me some proof that i could hold in my hand that shows without a doubt that god exists

[stinkyattic]

You need to find your own truth but never be so vain to think god dose not exist. That is egnorant beyond belivie.
I know I am not a perfect speller, I'm not perfeat at anything but at least I know it.

Uh this is weird.

On top of the spamming, the poor spelling appearing only at the end and then the poster commenting on his own imperfections seems very.... contrived?

Whatver tony.

This is a cannabis site... come on and spam us with your religious stuff but don;t forget to add some REAL content to the boards, willya?

[harris7]

Man I was so excited about this thread. I really think that is a good question.
Unfortunately it is so strongly under te shadow of religion.

IMO it is much more reasonable to say that the universe existed forever than to say that god existed forever and created the universe a little while ago.

But please lets talk about the question. Could something every come from nothing?
If once there was nothing and now there is something. How could this come to be?
If nothing was to ever change to something would it not need something, maybe a force, to make it change?

[mrdevious]

If nothing was to ever change to something would it not need something, maybe a force, to make it change?

Maybe something has always arisen, and eventually fallen into nothing again. Later to repeat the process through the infinite.

One of my favorite teachings of the Buddha is that everything arises and everything dies. This is inevitable, nothing is exempt to this rule, all is impermanent.

[afghooey]

Man I was so excited about this thread. I really think that is a good question.
Unfortunately it is so strongly under te shadow of religion.

IMO it is much more reasonable to say that the universe existed forever than to say that god existed forever and created the universe a little while ago.

But please lets talk about the question. Could something every come from nothing?
If once there was nothing and now there is something. How could this come to be?
If nothing was to ever change to something would it not need something, maybe a force, to make it change?

I mentioned this in another thread a while back, but I really don't think nothing exists at all (outside of concept). If it did, it would be something and not nothing.

[stinkyattic]

I mentioned this in another thread a while back, but I really don't think nothing exists at all (outside of concept). If it did, it would be something and not nothing.
I think that is the sanest thing that has been said yet.
Nothing is a concept... what a concept! :D

[Polymirize]

i've never understood this question as framed. People use it as if it supports one side of the god argument and not the other.

it would seem that if spontaneous generation (something from nothing) is a problem, its just as big a problem for the believer who thinks that God arose out of nothing. If god gets around this hurtle by being eternal, I fail to understand why the view that the universe is eternal can't do the same.

What's more, the whole "ex nihlo nihil fit" premise seems questionable. Says who? Ever looked into quantum theory?

Regardless of whether you believe in an eternal god or an oscillating universe (bang-crunch-bang), or question the premise that nothing comes from nothing, the fact of the situation is that its outside our current understanding of reality.

You can either admit to that and explore the possibilities, or you can just assume its god. God, that miraculous figure who makes all unexplanable phenomena possible. His workload has probably lightened up considerably since Newton discovered gravity though...

[stinkyattic]

What's more, the whole "ex nihlo nihil fit" premise seems questionable. Says who? Ever looked into quantum theory?

........the fact of the situation is that its outside our current understanding of reality.

......You can either admit to that and explore the possibilities, or you can just assume its god.

..... His workload has probably lightened up considerably since Newton discovered gravity though...

Great response! All that and funny too! :D

[Pass That Shit]

"it would seem that if spontaneous generation (something from nothing) is a problem, its just as big a problem for the believer who thinks that God arose out of nothing."

God has always been. He didn't arise out of nothing.
Do you feel that the "life" you believe in has always been? Or do you feel it came from nothing?
God or not, there's an eternal "energy" out there.

[harris7]

God or not, there's an eternal "energy" out there.

Pass that,
I... I.... agree?
is that possible
this is like the closes we will ever get to agreeing.

cool

[sm0k1t]

Yep that seems to fit the picture. Eternal energy seems right if we compare it to anything the world knows...if your computer is not connected with a source of energy is fonctionnalities will cease or die. Same thing for life. but we know that death or inanimated objects or materials does not need energy or is du to an absence of energy.

Actually the real problem is if there is a source of energy that is infinite or finite like the sun...(meaning creation of energy, so there is different quantities of it)

or if there is always energy and it never dissipates( does'nt disapear or burn out, maybe just changes is form ( heat, cold, wind, electricity, vibrations etc etc) without modifying the quantity but maybe is intensity)

or there is both....sounds possible but not yet proved i guess

what do you guys think?

[Polymirize]

"it would seem that if spontaneous generation (something from nothing) is a problem, its just as big a problem for the believer who thinks that God arose out of nothing."

God has always been. He didn't arise out of nothing.
Do you feel that the "life" you believe in has always been? Or do you feel it came from nothing?
God or not, there's an eternal "energy" out there.

You have to read the next sentence as well

Basically my point was that this isn't a problem for anyone unless its a problem for everyone, so I didn't see the point of trying to shore up a argument for (or against) god with it.
Both would do so in woeful ignorance of... well, our own ignorance.

I think I probably agree with your eternalist perspective. But I'm also very interested in the 'faith' we have in the particular concept of causality.

if everything happens for a reason then all things can be traced back to an initial "first cause". This could be god, this could be the first motion of the big bang. You still have the dilemna of what caused that first cause, and you might be forced to conclude that somehow, it just caused itself, spontaneously. Or you might conclude that causality itself must be flawed, in which case, maybe things happen without a reason all the time.

Just some thoughts.

And smok1t, all matter is energy. When a candle burns, its the molecules in the wax that are combusted that give off the energy of heat and light. The sun does the same thing on a vastly different scale. As such, you'd be right in saying that there is only energy in different forms, but science seems to predict a move from order to entrophy, basically that all that energy will eventually become spread out, probably eventually spelling an end to matter, except in residuals.

Actually, I've just realised I'm not entirely sure where you're trying to take that anyway. Clarify?

[Pass That Shit]

"And smok1t, all matter is energy. When a candle burns, its the molecules in the wax that are combusted that give off the energy of heat and light. The sun does the same thing on a vastly different scale."

How does the candle get lit? Who lights the candle? The sun is the candle of the world. And yes, it was lit by a man. :D

[harris7]

Assuming our laws of physics are correct.

The universe couldn’t have existed forever as I would have reached thermal equilibrium. IE heat energy would have spread out and everything would be the same temperature

[Pass That Shit]

I know who lit this candle. :D

How do we get weed? It takes knowledge to grow it. It takes work. It takes labor.
Weed does not grow on earth because of evolution or big bang. The seed was planted on earth and given proper environment.
My weed sure didn't grow by luck. I had something to do with it. Everything is of itself. Everything comes from seed.

Disregarding the wisdom in creation is not the way to go. How do you explain the evolution of life? You think this design is by luck? The man has the seed and plants in the female. Next the seed grows inside the woman and comes into the world. We multiply and keep living. What does evolution or the big bang have to do with this design? Did evolution bring us this cycle of life? I don't see anything evolving so I don't believe in evolution. What I see is a design and a cycle in everything living.

[harris7]

I don't see anything evolving so I don't believe in evolution.

You also donâ??t see atoms, or Alaska, or me, or George W bush .

Do we not exist? By your logic we donâ??t.

Oh, You also donâ??t see god.

So no god either

[Stoner Shadow Wolf]

Did evolution bring us this cycle of life? I don't see anything evolving so I don't believe in evolution. What I see is a design and a cycle in everything living.


pardon me for discluding the rest of your message but...



when a cut heals, is your skin not evolving?

evolution takes time, and lots of it.

changes are evolution, as a body changes, it evolves.


the body of humanity has evolved a lot since it first appeared on earth.


we werent created with computers, sky scrapers, and rockets.

and the earth wasnt created yesterday, nor the day before that. it wasnt created the moment human life appeared here, it was created long before we were.


now, i dont have any dispute with the creation theory, but why cant evolution be responsible for change? evolution is just another aspect of creation.

[Pass That Shit]

I agree that evolution is the change, but it evolves by design. Your physical body evolves out of sperm into a body of a man, but you come from the seed of your father. Your father had to plant the seed for you to be born.
Evolution did not bring you here, it was the planting of your father.

[mrdevious]

PTS, maybe you shouldn't just disregard everything that you can't or won't understand.


How do we get weed? It takes knowledge to grow it. It takes work. It takes labor.
Weed does not grow on earth because of evolution or big bang.

Evolution explains quite well how life, and yes weed, can come about on this earth. A Big Bang does NOT make weed, it does not make life, it doesn't not even make planets and solar systems and galaxies. The big bang is only an explanation as to the beginning of the existence of matter and its spread. Maybe you find this incomprehensible, I don't know, but every proposed system of complexity doesn't involve a single event creating a massively elaborote form.


The seed was planted on earth and given proper environment.

That's right. But while assuming that god therefor made this environment ideal for life, you don't even consider that of the trillions upon infinite trillions of planets in this universe, some of these will HAVE TO be the right distance from their sun with the right gasses in the atmosphere to be ideal for life to grow. You've been so stuck on the notion that god made conditions ideal, you refuse to even consider that under trillions of varriable planets life arose where it was compatible with the environment, not the other way around.



My weed sure didn't grow by luck. I had something to do with it. Everything is of itself. Everything comes from seed.

You're commiting a common logical fallacy in assuming that a system which creates one kind of order, must therefor create all kinds of order. A big bang creating matter and the spread thereof, doesn't mean big unorganized bangs create DNA and telephones too. Though thankfully we do agree on one thing, complex systems of order don't arise from pure luck.


Disregarding the wisdom in creation is not the way to go. How do you explain the evolution of life?

Call me crazy but maybe you should read a book on evolution, or take a course in evolutionary biology, and see for yourself. Now let me ask you PTS, how do you explain the creation by god? You can't just say "god just did it" anymore than I can say "evolution just did it", we need explanations as to the mechanisms and physical processes employed to reach this end result. I know it's nice to think like a children's fairy tale and say he just did it be magic, but the real world doesn't work by magic. If god created us all, in fact if god was a spontaneously arising complexity beyond any of us (something you won't allow for us for some reason), where is the actual explanation of the processes that determined god and all his doing?


You think this design is by luck?

No, not a single scientist or evolutionist thinks that design is a product of luck, and it's immensely frustrating that creationists continue to distort our position to justify themselves. You've so thorhoughly imbedded the limited idea of "god, or luck" in your head that you can't seem to comprehend anything else. You can't claim to be making intelligent and critical observations if you won't even attempt to understand the other explanations, but rather just attribute everything that isn't god to "Big one-in-a-trillion-chance luck".


The man has the seed and plants in the female. Next the seed grows inside the woman and comes into the world. We multiply and keep living. What does evolution or the big bang have to do with this design?

Your ignorance is astounding! The big bang has NOTHING to do with it, and evolution beautifully explains all of it. Not that I expect you to do anything but dismiss it without a thought and not actaully consider it. Again, if the explanation for the evolutionary process is unsatisfactory to you, the explanation for god should be WAY MORE unsatisfactory as there is none. Evolution has massive amounts of evidence supporting it, god is just "and god did it... don't ask how".



Did evolution bring us this cycle of life? I don't see anything evolving so I don't believe in evolution.

That's like seeing a thousand year old tree and saying "I didn't see this tree 500 years ago, so I don't believe it's older than the first day I saw it". You obviously have no understanding of evolution and probably have this idea that it means one day a dinosaur is walking around and suddenly evolves into a bird. Evolution is not directly observable unless you can live for millions of years and constantly observe a particular species in a particular environment.


What I see is a design and a cycle in everything living.

You see what you want to see, and interpret everything to match up with your presuppositions. Damn, isn't thinking and critical reasoning a bitch? All those nice, quick and easy answers go right down the tubes when you accept that there isn't a magic-wand answer to everything, and the universe is an incredibly complex place that takes years of study to understand only small portions of it. The record of humanity's history certainly shows one thing; we made our real progress when we stopped depending on easy superstition and started striving to find the real answers ourselves, even when they're difficult to determine and we don't have every answer at the time.

[harris7]

\

when a cut heals, is your skin not evolving?

evolution takes time, and lots of it.

changes are evolution, as a body changes, it evolves.


the body of humanity has evolved a lot since it first appeared on earth.
.

No your skin isn't evolving.

[Pass That Shit]

MrD, I usually do'nt reply cause I have given my testimony. You have shared yours and that's cool.
We have the right to follow what we want. I'm not trying to convince you.

[mrdevious]

MrD, I usually do'nt reply cause I have given my testimony. You have shared yours and that's cool.
We have the right to follow what we want. I'm not trying to convince you.

Oh please PTS, you and I have both spent plenty of time making our arguments for and against the existence of god. I've heard about a thousand arguments from you trying to "prove" the existence of god in many god-debate threads. Even here you still try to disprove evolution and prove god; and hey, go for it if you think you're right about that. But don't try to tell me you haven't made countless arguments about god. You just haven't been trying as hard since I called you on it when you kept repeatedly making super-illogical arguments, I completely disproved several of them, and you ignored the rebuttal and kept making the same non-sensicle arguments.

Hey, tell you what, I'm in a shit load of pain right now like I am every day, and thus in a bad fuckin mood. If god comes down right now and cures me, I'll praise his name every day and apologize to you while licking your shoes. OK HERE WE GO, SAVE ME OH LORD.......

[Polymirize]

Oh please PTS, you and I have both spent plenty of time making our arguments for and against the existence of god. I've heard about a thousand arguments from you trying to "prove" the existence of god in many god-debate threads.

Interesting point. "god-debate". when did that start? If I believed in providence, I'd say that god himself would have to be behind the fact that probably 80 percent of the threads in the spirituality section end up arguing about god, regardless of how they start. I don't. So I'm more inclined to think its just a narrowmind set on the part of some, and a relentless urge to debate on the part of some others. I would, however, love to occasionally have a fresh and original thread.

I'll say this. And this is not in any way directed at one specific person, a couple come to mind, and who knows perhaps even I'm guilty of this:

we started trying to talk about nothingness. I tried to steer it towards causality, my bad. But where did the thread eventually go? Evolution. What the fuck is wrong with some of you people? Not every discussion that involves the scientific method is a threat to your confused spirituality. Science is bigger than evolution. Science itself, continues to evolve. And I'm tired of every thread in spirituality being coopted for some stance on how great god is. If you'd just examine the scientific method you might find that it would help you in your spiritual pursuits. But whatever, we all get to follow our own chosen paths huh, well, I won't try to convince you.

Can you have spirituality without christianity? Yes. So stop pretending like the world revolves around you. Even the church gave up on the geocentric model.

If you want to discuss matters like adults, fine. If you want to skip around and tell us all that you have jesus in your pocket I'm not interested. I'd rather you listen to your own tired line that gets pulled out whenever you've talked yourself into a corner, and stop trying to convince us.