My theory on infinite conprehension in measurement.

[wayoftheleaf]

Okay I have this theory.

Measurement is infinite. A figure can always be measured to a greater degree than it currently is. Because of this, if a being could conprehend everything at the moment it happened, it could possibly become fixed in time understanding the time that it in.

What do you think?

[TheFatKid]

Whoa, confusing. I don't really understand it. Can you dumb it down a bit from Because of this, if a being could conprehend everything at the moment it happened, it could possibly become fixed in time understanding the time that it in.

[wayoftheleaf]

If you measure something to be one inch, it is not exactly one inch. In fact, due to numbers being infinite, you could measure the exact measurement of that inch forever, or until your equipment that you are using can no longer measure it anymore because it is not advanced enough to find the next number.

If someone or something had the ability to fully comprehend anything and everything in the world at one time, then it would become basically frozen in time.

The reason for this is this.

If it tried to understand the exact moment it is in, then it would find the time. Right now it is 12:08:36 but it would go further than just hours, minutes and seconds. We are talking about hundreds of millions of trillions of numbers after the decimal. The being would actually just go on and on in the comprehendtion at the moment it is in forever, and never get to the end.

[TheFatKid]

OHHHH. So basically we are never exact, and even when something appears small, it is in a state of being infinite to a small extent?

[wayoftheleaf]

Exactly.

[konqrr]

Well if you think about it that way, then...

Before you take one step you must take half a step, before you take half a step you must take 1/4 a step, and so on and so on until the units get so small that you are basicly "stuck in time" in the way you describe it. Although the reason for it is different...follows the same logic of thinking though

[Pipe Dreams]

Word. I couldnt understand that if I wasnt stoned right now. Im typing with one eye open so I can see straight.

[Polymirize]

well, for starters, you're not quite accurate there yourself. An inch is an inch. And a second is a second. Measurement itself may be a theoretical construct that we overlay onto the world but that doesn't threaten its precision. Your connundrum is similar to Zeno's paradox which you should look into. Suffice it to say, time still passes and objects can still move, so see if you can't find a solution to this quandry.

[TheFatKid]

I hate theorizing like this sometimes cuz I often contradict myself, and argue with myself, and think of new ideas constantly, but it is a great way to exercise the mind.

Another hard concept to visualize is time. Who one day decided that the year we are now in is 1? What if there was previous generations of people who had a time system of their own, contradicting the man who invented the year. It is infinite, and a hard concept to grasp. It seems so basic, but I could think about this for hours.

[wayoftheleaf]

Which is why I put there must be a being able to do it.

If a person has the ability to automatically know and understand the unit of time he or she is in, then he or she would be locked in time, because the unit of time he or she is in is an infinite number.

[Polymirize]

if an eggtimer set for ten minutes goes off in the woods and no one is around to hear it...

does it make a sound?

[TheFatKid]

What if a wolf is around?

[wayoftheleaf]

Um.....Yeah?

[420ultimatesmokage]

there is a limit to how accurate we can measure things due to the uncertainty principle. some more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

[Polymirize]

there is a limit to how accurate we can measure things due to the uncertainty principle. some more info http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle

totally. so what you're saying is, we have the potential to change the value of a second when we fire an electron at it?

or that we can never know both the location and the velocity of a measurement of time? Totally.

but still...

[420ultimatesmokage]

totally. so what you're saying is, we have the potential to change the value of a second when we fire an electron at it?

or that we can never know both the location and the velocity of a measurement of time? Totally.

but still...

uncertainty principle also includes ideas that at the quantum level things are constantly turning to and from energy. time and space in the sense of what we experience is completely backwards. There are no definite measurements at the smallest scales everything is based on probability.

[Skink]

Beam me up scotty,,,these people are nutz...

[Polymirize]

Really? I was actually kinda making fun of you.


uncertainty principle also includes ideas that at the quantum level things are constantly turning to and from energy. time and space in the sense of what we experience is completely backwards. There are no definite measurements at the smallest scales everything is based on probability.

That seems to go far beyond Heisenburg. Are you sure you're not equating the uncertainty principle with uncertainty in general?

Anyway, I'll bite. Quantum mechanics or any modern physics seems to make space for the subjectivity of an individual perspective. Which seems to threaten the very concept of an objective "real" time.

Since wayoftheleaf's entire dilemna is based upon an equivocation between a subjective and an objective understanding of time, not to mention measurement, I think his paradox dissolves quite nicely.

[420ultimatesmokage]

Really? I was actually kinda making fun of you.

your condescending attitude was all to apparent but i was just trying to give a little bit of info without getting into a big argument. the point im trying to make is we can't know everything because at the most basic level, nothing is certain nothing can be known for sure.

[Polymirize]

well I'm glad it wasn't lost on you. I don't see why you think quantum theory is even at all relevant in this case? It just adds another level of complication that does nothing for the clarity of the original problem.

quantum theory deals with reality. A very dynamic and yet rigidly defined concept of reality.

Time however isn't very real. You could make arguments about spacetime but it doesn't address the fact that a second is a second. Maybe always relative to a particular frame of reference, but a second nonetheless.

I still think this all boils down to Zeno's paradox. And despite the fact that you can always cut a second in half, and then half again, and half again ad infinium; that divisibility doesn't address the second as a unit itself.

Time is a concept that we apply to the world, much as quantum theory is a concept we apply to the world. But to apply one concept to another concept seems redundant.

There are no second particles. When 60 seconds come together they don't form a minute molecule. These are ideas, not components of physical reality. So why quantum theory?

[Skrappie]

one of the things that glared at me the most:

Things frozen do not move. I mean they do normally, but in extremes such as absolute zero, nothing moves not even molecules.
I would suppose absolute zero is the thermal equivalent of what you're speaking of.

So if a being was so absorbed in taking in every bit of information that it became froze, then would it truly be taking in information?

If anything, any being like the one you suggest would be taking in info at in incredible speed, seeing as it has to process the same wealth of info before the next unit of time (whatever that is). Things that think at high speeds move at high speeds, and live at high speeds (relatively speaking),

so my question to you is, even if this being lived long enough for you to even comprehend its existence if you were to be in front of it,

would you even understand what it was there?
:stoned:

[wayoftheleaf]

You took that the wrong way skrappie. The being didn't just get the information at a fast speed. It got the information at the exact moment it wanted the information. But because of this, it would become frozen do the infinite measurements we have.


like I said, the only reason we can't do it is because we don't have the technology yet. The quantom theory disproves my theory of infinite measurement in a relative sense now, but in the future, which is also infinite, anything is possible. and if you overlap a figure into infinite, no matter how unlikely that figure it is, it becomes very plausable.

[Skrappie]

I didn't take it the wrong way, i just put a spin on your theory. Hoping you'd be able to 'think outside of your own box' Thats why i asked you questions instead of making statements.
it doesnt matter anywho :)

[notransfer]

im convinced that the information that exists..in the universe that keeps it basically bound to certain exertions and such is not meant to be completely ever understood by any being, each being has a different interpretation of time speed power leverage etc.

theoretically if something measured to infinity being frozen in time as you say for the moment the theory of time as linear would be unfounded because the information being measured would become chaotic in human understanding terms because to the smallest organic mechanical electrical anatomic molecular chemical physical thermological material mineral etc. measurement exists in changes unable to be measured by any being we know of..perception is like goggles based on chemical electrical atomic signals being recieved..and chaos would exist for a being who could understand time as one large moment rather than a series of repeating moments in which change occurs..measuring the moment as deep as the moment can possibly be measured in any form of measurement...becoming the moment...perception would be one large ball of energy shifts...reminds me of the sun with random sunspots and bursts and flows of intense...exponential energy with regards to existance as we know it at the moment, having no beginning and no ending...if you could become time, you would know how everything started and how everything ended all at once..

uhhh...shits interesting to think about

[notransfer]

what do you think of that way?(i hope you come back and re-read responses)

[420ultimatesmokage]

I don't see why you think quantum theory is even at all relevant in this case?


his very first premise is that measurement is infinite which is not the case, there is a very real limit to what we can measure accurately or with any certainty.my argument about space applies equally to time seeing as how they are part of the same fabric. he then goes on saying if we know everything about a moment then we would be suspended in time. im saying that we can't know everything there is to know about a moment because of the uncertainty principle.

[notransfer]

i agree completely with that and was kinda what i was getting at with the chaos idea...the uncertainty exists at the level unmeasurable..reality is patterns of energy somewhat based on chance..to be in the moment is to be in a random plane of energy and energy shifts unmeasurable...too much information at once..?

[wayoftheleaf]

I am trying to find a way to express this


this is time <----->
the this is the moment of time you are in <---|--->

if at this moment (<---|--->) you were to gain every drop of understanding and measurement of everything, you would remain locked at that point, because there is infinite amount of understanding and measurement at any given time, so to understand it at one moment in time is impossible to do, yet if you have the ability, then you could not possibly be able to understand all units of measurement and understanding, without being frozen in time.

[madeline]

Umm, it's coMprehend and coMprehension...

[wayoftheleaf]

Sorry I never did good in spelling

[wayoftheleaf]

lol billionfold you are awesome. you always make me laugh.

[notransfer]

being frozen in time means you would recieve, no matter how large and complex and layered, a single measurement of that moment, everything in space within that moment, the moment following would be different..concepts and understanding are relative to time...being frozen in a moment and being the whole that is moments are two different things...i suppose i went in a direction you weren't getting at in the first place

[notransfer]

i see what you might be saying in that one moment all over space contains every chance/measurement that is possible...so freezing in time theoretically is gaining understanding of everything all at once destroying linear time because all chances and existances would be covered...but i still look at it like there are things that will exist, just have not existed yet anywhere in space...evolution and chance viewed from a universal scale..thats why im stuck thinking knowledge of every measurement in a given moment is subject to being 'proven wrong' so to speak in any given moment to follow based on uncertainty and chance and energy flow and breaks in patterns..

...you're 15?!

[wayoftheleaf]

Yes I am fifteen


But doesnt the concept of all possible chance of every possible reality of time and understanding describe the tenth demension? Therefore showing that the being would have to be able to achieve an area of understanding far above our own that can only truly comprehend the 3rd demension?

[notransfer]

i think that understanding of all..may be a 'tenth' dimension thing (did you read that somewhere the 10th, why'd you say 10th instead of say 4th or 8th?)
i think the human mind has a ceiling and all beings have a ceiling of understanding its a drawback to being a being lol
if a being is naturally transcendental and thats the way they essentially Are, actions don't come into play in terms of moments so i see how this could be another dimension or an existance frozen and spread out over time..
lots of theory..fun to contemplate

[wayoftheleaf]

The third demension what we live in, the fourth dimension is time itself, the fifth is all possible outcomes around a single person's life, the sixth is all outcomes of everyones life the seventh.. blah.. blah... the tenth is all possible beginnings and endings and all the inbetween's. what you said defers to the tenth dimension.

[notransfer]

a being that is omniscient wouldnt be a being...it would be something indescribable like some .. force that everything exists in and exists in everything..what many people see god as.

[wayoftheleaf]

Lol i don't have anything to say.

[Polymirize]

his very first premise is that measurement is infinite which is not the case, there is a very real limit to what we can measure accurately or with any certainty.my argument about space applies equally to time seeing as how they are part of the same fabric. he then goes on saying if we know everything about a moment then we would be suspended in time. im saying that we can't know everything there is to know about a moment because of the uncertainty principle.

Ok. I agree that his premises are extremely flawed to start with. I accept the argument from quantum mechanics. I just think that by attempting to connect a system of measurement to the "real world", you need to follow him on his first couple steps, and logically, no you can disarm his entire argument before it draws its first breath.


And as for ten dimensions. Current string theory which postulates ten dimensions usually holds that the missing six rolled up and shrank to the size of the planck length. They're here, they're just to small to interact in any meaningful way (?). I think in appealing to multiple dimensions you're going a little far of the esoteric field.

[Stowned]

You see, I disagree and I'll tell you why I disagree. The concept of infinity is a man made system of measuring and it presupposes that this man made measurement is persistent in all planes of consciousness. It assumes that human mathematics and physics is constant everywhere in the Universe and this is simply not true.

I refuse to accept that the absolute knowledge and truths of the universe is encompassed in humanities under-evolved and primitive systems.

I believe that the universe is comprised of a vast amount of systems of measurement and it has a multitude of laws and physics all with many many interpretations of infinity, even superior versions.

So you see, this concept of infinity is an arrogant assumption of measurement. Infinity does not exist outside of the human perception.

Our reality is perceived through an unfathomable amount of different eyes of every conceivable intelligences. See our universe is ever-conditional and ever-evolving. A singularity is never constant and absolute in this reality.

What ever you think is 'truth', is only just a superficial truth that is governed by the limitations of your perception. All truth is temporary, Truth is static and evolves and manifests in many different consistencies.

We know nothing and will never know the absolute. This I am greatly certain of.

[wayoftheleaf]

No you see stowned, infinite ONLY exists outside human perception. It is easy for us to say infinity and that it goes on forever, but we simply cannot comprehend something without a begining and an end. It seems impossible in our mind sets. We just use the term infinity without truly comprehending it.

[420ultimatesmokage]

Ok. I agree that his premises are extremely flawed to start with. I accept the argument from quantum mechanics. I just think that by attempting to connect a system of measurement to the "real world", you need to follow him on his first couple steps, and logically, no you can disarm his entire argument before it draws its first breath.


And as for ten dimensions. Current string theory which postulates ten dimensions usually holds that the missing six rolled up and shrank to the size of the planck length. They're here, they're just to small to interact in any meaningful way (?). I think in appealing to multiple dimensions you're going a little far of the esoteric field.

I think we are pretty much in agreement i just wanted to add that i was in no way talking about multiple dimensions and string theory. i was talking about at are current understanding, the fabric of spacetime at the quantum level is not "smooth" but "uneven" which causes time and space to be warped beyond are current understanding.

[tschmidty32]

Actually, i think, (i'm really not sure) the smallest form of measurement is the mole...one mole equals 6.02*10^23...i guess it's not the smallest form of measurement because that's a huge number but the thing is you can't just have a mole, you have to have a mole of something...and usually that something is atoms...maybe i'm totally going in the wrong direction but i remember learning about moles in chemistry...however i got a C+ in that class...just throwing it out there because it sounds like moles are related to this convo!

[NextLineIsMine]

good paradox to express this. When you go from point A to point B you pass an infinite number of points, because you could go on halving that distance forever. So how the fuck do you cross an infinite number of points? The answer is planks... seriously

btw moles are a way of measuring particle concentration in gas, its not a distance

[tschmidty32]

yeah i wasn't sure if moles were related to this or not...how i even rememberd that one mole=6.02*10^23 things i have no clue.

[rainbows.rsexy]

reminds me of philosophy test questions.



um teacher.....

[lil josh]

makes sence to me :)

[wayoftheleaf]

I used that movie to help come up with some points in my theory.

I believe such a being could only exist in the tenth demension.

[Stowned]

No you see stowned, infinite ONLY exists outside human perception. It is easy for us to say infinity and that it goes on forever, but we simply cannot comprehend something without a begining and an end. It seems impossible in our mind sets. We just use the term infinity without truly comprehending it.

I understand what your saying but I donâ??t agree that infinity exists outside of the human perception because the concept of infinity is a product of the human rationale.

I will explain to you why I believe the way I do.

Humans assume that their version of Time is constant everywhere in the universe and they assume that all conscious beings experience the same exact dynamic of Time. They ignorantly and arrogantly, IMO, think that everything that exists, no matter what the mass of the perceiver is, views the momentum of Time at the same exact pace and I simply refuse to believe these ignorant human assumptions.

What Iâ??m trying to say is, this 'Human Time model' as it were, is not actually constant at all, at least not in the perceptions of ALL observers. I believe that not only are there multiple versions of infinity, but there exists multiple version of Time aswell and we all know that Time and Infinity are related and even dependant upon each other. To reiterate my point, I will conclude by saying this, In our universe, there exists a vast and even an incomprehensible amount of different laws of physics and versions of Time that govern our universe and all of them are unique in the way that they apply to the observer. Human Time is not absolute nor is this infinity concept, They are only limited to the human consciousness.

[wayoftheleaf]

Okay, I refined my theory today.

Theory of altered dimensional physics in relation to infinity comprehension and understanding.

Based on the theory of the tenth dimension and its concepts, the physics of the tenth dimension must differ from our own.

Time can never be exactly measured. It is a pi all of its own variety. A being (or possibly even the dimension itself) of the tenth dimension would be able to comprehend infinity upon the instant of its creation. In our dimension, this would result, theoretically, in a lapse in which the being is either frozen in time, or in a loop.


That is what I came up with at school today.