Why radical Islam might defeat the West

[Bong30]

Middle East

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EG08Ak02.html

SPENGLER
Why radical Islam might defeat the West

"Does Spengler know, for instance, that in the last century 2,000 distinct ethnic groups have gone extinct?" Eric Garrett asks in his June 12 riposte, A question of identity, to an earlier article of mine, Neo-cons in a religious bind.

Garrett's organization, the World Conservation Union, is devoted to preserving fragile cultures. As a matter of fact, I reported in this space that in the next decade, yet another 2,000 distinct ethnic groups would go extinct (Live and Let Die of April 13, 2002). Ignore the endangered Ewoks for a moment, Mr Garrett, and explain why the imperial peoples of the past two centuries - Germans, Japanese, French, Italians, Russians, and so forth - have elected to disappear, through failure to reproduce (Why Europe chooses extinction, April 8).

Garrett and I focus on the same data, but with different agendas. His concern is the mass extinction of primitive cultures, which I think inevitable; my concern is the fall of Western civilization and the possible triumph of radical Islam. In neither case does the influence of Leo Strauss have any relevance. Europe and Japan, the erstwhile imperial oppressors of Garrett's 2,000 lost tribes, are dying out for the same reason that oppressed peoples died out, and thousands more soon will die out as well. With few exceptions, they were neither butchered nor dispossessed. Unlike the colonizers of the 16th century, who brought smallpox, the European colonists of the 20th century brought antibiotics. Western intervention secured the physical existence of aboriginal cultures, but undermined their will to live. Now it is the Europeans themselves who are endangered.

Socrates (like Strauss) was wrong. It is not the unexamined life that is not worth living, but the life defined by mere animal existence. Unlike lower species, humans require a sense of the eternal. The brute instinct for self-preservation is a myth. It should be no surprise. Precisely a century ago, George Bernard Shaw in his 1903 interlude Don Juan in Hell warned that Western hedonism would lead to depopulation.

the viciously reckless poor and the stupidly pious rich will delay the extinctiThe day is coming when great nations will find their numbers dwindling from census to census; when the six-roomed villa will rise in price above the family mansion; when on of the race only by degrading it; whilst the boldly prudent, the thriftily selfish and ambitious, the imaginative and poetic, the lovers of money and solid comfort, the worshippers of success, of art, and of love, will all oppose to the Force of Life the device of sterility.

This brings us to the reason why Strauss has become something of a bore. The good professor (I mean this sincerely) hung his political-science hat on Hobbes, who threw out the traditional concept of God-given rights of man. He derived the social contract instead from man's brute instinct for self-preservation. In order to protect themselves against violence in the state of nature, men surrender part of their freedom to a ruler who in turn guarantees their security. By deriving natural rights from brute instinct rather than divine law, Strauss argued (Natural Right and History, 1950), Hobbes invented modern political science, that is, a discipline distinct from faith. Thus he made it possible to create a practicable republic composed of selfish men, unlike the utopian vision of Plato, which depended upon virtuous rulers. (Strauss sought to conjure out of Plato's writings a view similar to that of Hobbes, and I will let the classicists argue over whether his "esoteric" reading has merit.) Kant summarized the modern viewpoint: "We could devise a constitution for a race of devils, if only they were intelligent."

History exposes Hobbes's "self-preservation instinct" as a chimera. If men have no more than physical self-preservation, self-disgust will stifle them. Strauss knew that Hobbes's approach leads inevitably to nihilism, and he proposed a return to Athenian political philosophy as an antidote, although what that might accomplish is unclear. His students still quibble fruitlessly over whether Strauss "stayed with the moderns" or "went back to Athens".

Did someone in Washington take Kant literally and set about devising a constitution for devils with the Arab world in mind? Does it matter? Washington must talk about democracy in the Arab world, Strauss or no. Strauss, as in the Jewish joke about the man who sees a shop whose windows are full of clocks. He enters and tells the proprietor, "I want to buy a clock." The proprietor responds, "I don't sell clocks." "Then what do you do?" "I am a mohel [ritual circumciser]." "Then why do you put clocks in the window?" "What do you want me to put in the window?"

Which brings us to the threat of radical Islam. "You are decadent and hedonistic. We on the other hand are willing to die for what we believe, and we are a billion strong. You cannot kill all of us, so you will have to accede to what we demand." That, in a nutshell, constitutes the Islamist challenge to the West.

Neither the demographic shift toward Muslim immigrants nor meretricious self-interest explains Western Europe's appeasement of Islam, but rather the terrifying logic of the numbers. That is why President Bush has thrown his prestige behind the rickety prospect of an Israeli-Palestinian peace. And that is why Islamism has only lost a battle in Iraq, but well might win the war.

Not a single Western strategist has proposed an ideological response to the religious challenge of Islam. On the contrary: the Vatican, the guardian-of-last-resort of the Western heritage, has placed itself squarely in the camp of appeasement. Except for a few born-again Christians in the United States, no Western voice is raised in criticism of Islam itself. The trouble is that Islam believes in its divine mission, while the United States has only a fuzzy recollection of what it once believed, and therefore has neither the aptitude nor the inclination for ideological warfare.

^^^^^^ that sums it up...^^^^^^^^

Relativism is America's religion, as Leo Strauss complained. Only superficially can one explain this by the peculiar composition of the American people - that is, a collection of immigrants who willfully abandoned their cultures to begin again there, and view each other's customs with a peculiar blend of sentimentality and indifference. Americans fail to grasp decisive strategic issues not only because they misunderstand other cultures, but because they avert their gaze from the painful episodes of their own history. In his book The Metaphysical Club, Prof Louis Menand observes that the horrors of the Civil War discredited the idealism of young New Englanders (his case study is Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr), producing the vapid pragmatism that has reigned since then in American culture. Americans suffer from a form of traumatic amnesia, such that every generation of Americans must learn the hard way.
Garrett thinks that Strauss's critique of relativism provides a moral prop for American unilateralism. He can relax. Strauss's case is weak. It amounts to reductio ad absurdum: "All societies have their ideals, cannibal societies no less than civilized ones. If principles are sufficiently justified by the fact that they are accepted by a society, the principles of cannibalism are as defensible or sound as those of civilized life." Now comes Garrett, whose job it is to defend cannibal societies' right to exist. Strauss in his worst nightmares could not have imagined Garrett.

Strauss cannot convince Garrett. Indeed, he could not convince himself. Strauss knew perfectly well that philosophy could not refute relativism ("radical historicism"), hence his helplessness before Heidegger's parlour tricks. Strauss gave up on Nietzsche largely because Heidegger offered a sharper critique of rationalism. (Garrett's interpretation of Nietzsche as a philosemite seems idiosyncratic, to say the least, considering that Nietzsche denounced his erstwhile idol Wagner as a Jew after Wagner made peace with Christianity in Parsifal.)

Critics of the neo-conservatives accuse them of following Machiavelli, via Strauss. The charge sticks to Michael Ledeen, but surely not to Irving Kristol, the "godfather" of neo-conservatism, who spurned Machiavelli as a "the first nihilist". Who cares? Machiavelli was a Florentine lightweight who hoped that the poisoner Cesare Borgia would unite Italy. What Italian has done anything of political importance in the past 500 years? What effect on history had all the stiletto-and-arsenic games of the Italian condottiere?

Grim men of faith - Loyola, Oldebarnevelt, Richilieu, Mazarin - led the religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, while the Florentines amused the tourists (The sacred heart of darkness, February 11). The trouble with Strauss, I reiterate, is that he was an atheist, rather a disadvantage in a religious war. The West has no armed prophet. It doesn't even have an armed theologian.

[daima]

Middle East

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/EG08Ak02.html

SPENGLER
Why radical Islam might defeat the West

"Does Spengler know, for instance, that in the last century 2,000 distinct ethnic groups have gone extinct?" Eric Garrett asks in his June 12 riposte, A question of identity, to an earlier article of mine, Neo-cons in a religious bind.

Garrett's organization, the World Conservation Union, is devoted to preserving fragile cultures. As a matter of fact, I reported in this space that in the next decade, yet another 2,000 distinct ethnic groups would go extinct (Live and Let Die of April 13, 2002). Ignore the endangered Ewoks for a moment, Mr Garrett, and explain why the imperial peoples of the past two centuries - Germans, Japanese, French, Italians, Russians, and so forth - have elected to disappear, through failure to reproduce (Why Europe chooses extinction, April 8).

Garrett and I focus on the same data, but with different agendas. His concern is the mass extinction of primitive cultures, which I think inevitable; my concern is the fall of Western civilization and the possible triumph of radical Islam. In neither case does the influence of Leo Strauss have any relevance. Europe and Japan, the erstwhile imperial oppressors of Garrett's 2,000 lost tribes, are dying out for the same reason that oppressed peoples died out, and thousands more soon will die out as well. With few exceptions, they were neither butchered nor dispossessed. Unlike the colonizers of the 16th century, who brought smallpox, the European colonists of the 20th century brought antibiotics. Western intervention secured the physical existence of aboriginal cultures, but undermined their will to live. Now it is the Europeans themselves who are endangered.

Socrates (like Strauss) was wrong. It is not the unexamined life that is not worth living, but the life defined by mere animal existence. Unlike lower species, humans require a sense of the eternal. The brute instinct for self-preservation is a myth. It should be no surprise. Precisely a century ago, George Bernard Shaw in his 1903 interlude Don Juan in Hell warned that Western hedonism would lead to depopulation.

the viciously reckless poor and the stupidly pious rich will delay the extinctiThe day is coming when great nations will find their numbers dwindling from census to census; when the six-roomed villa will rise in price above the family mansion; when on of the race only by degrading it; whilst the boldly prudent, the thriftily selfish and ambitious, the imaginative and poetic, the lovers of money and solid comfort, the worshippers of success, of art, and of love, will all oppose to the Force of Life the device of sterility.

This brings us to the reason why Strauss has become something of a bore. The good professor (I mean this sincerely) hung his political-science hat on Hobbes, who threw out the traditional concept of God-given rights of man. He derived the social contract instead from man's brute instinct for self-preservation. In order to protect themselves against violence in the state of nature, men surrender part of their freedom to a ruler who in turn guarantees their security. By deriving natural rights from brute instinct rather than divine law, Strauss argued (Natural Right and History, 1950), Hobbes invented modern political science, that is, a discipline distinct from faith. Thus he made it possible to create a practicable republic composed of selfish men, unlike the utopian vision of Plato, which depended upon virtuous rulers. (Strauss sought to conjure out of Plato's writings a view similar to that of Hobbes, and I will let the classicists argue over whether his "esoteric" reading has merit.) Kant summarized the modern viewpoint: "We could devise a constitution for a race of devils, if only they were intelligent."

History exposes Hobbes's "self-preservation instinct" as a chimera. If men have no more than physical self-preservation, self-disgust will stifle them. Strauss knew that Hobbes's approach leads inevitably to nihilism, and he proposed a return to Athenian political philosophy as an antidote, although what that might accomplish is unclear. His students still quibble fruitlessly over whether Strauss "stayed with the moderns" or "went back to Athens".

Did someone in Washington take Kant literally and set about devising a constitution for devils with the Arab world in mind? Does it matter? Washington must talk about democracy in the Arab world, Strauss or no. Strauss, as in the Jewish joke about the man who sees a shop whose windows are full of clocks. He enters and tells the proprietor, "I want to buy a clock." The proprietor responds, "I don't sell clocks." "Then what do you do?" "I am a mohel [ritual circumciser]." "Then why do you put clocks in the window?" "What do you want me to put in the window?"

Which brings us to the threat of radical Islam. "You are decadent and hedonistic. We on the other hand are willing to die for what we believe, and we are a billion strong. You cannot kill all of us, so you will have to accede to what we demand." That, in a nutshell, constitutes the Islamist challenge to the West.

Neither the demographic shift toward Muslim immigrants nor meretricious self-interest explains Western Europe's appeasement of Islam, but rather the terrifying logic of the numbers. That is why President Bush has thrown his prestige behind the rickety prospect of an Israeli-Palestinian peace. And that is why Islamism has only lost a battle in Iraq, but well might win the war.

Not a single Western strategist has proposed an ideological response to the religious challenge of Islam. On the contrary: the Vatican, the guardian-of-last-resort of the Western heritage, has placed itself squarely in the camp of appeasement. Except for a few born-again Christians in the United States, no Western voice is raised in criticism of Islam itself. The trouble is that Islam believes in its divine mission, while the United States has only a fuzzy recollection of what it once believed, and therefore has neither the aptitude nor the inclination for ideological warfare.

^^^^^^ that sums it up...^^^^^^^^

Relativism is America's religion, as Leo Strauss complained. Only superficially can one explain this by the peculiar composition of the American people - that is, a collection of immigrants who willfully abandoned their cultures to begin again there, and view each other's customs with a peculiar blend of sentimentality and indifference. Americans fail to grasp decisive strategic issues not only because they misunderstand other cultures, but because they avert their gaze from the painful episodes of their own history. In his book The Metaphysical Club, Prof Louis Menand observes that the horrors of the Civil War discredited the idealism of young New Englanders (his case study is Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr), producing the vapid pragmatism that has reigned since then in American culture. Americans suffer from a form of traumatic amnesia, such that every generation of Americans must learn the hard way.
Garrett thinks that Strauss's critique of relativism provides a moral prop for American unilateralism. He can relax. Strauss's case is weak. It amounts to reductio ad absurdum: "All societies have their ideals, cannibal societies no less than civilized ones. If principles are sufficiently justified by the fact that they are accepted by a society, the principles of cannibalism are as defensible or sound as those of civilized life." Now comes Garrett, whose job it is to defend cannibal societies' right to exist. Strauss in his worst nightmares could not have imagined Garrett.

Strauss cannot convince Garrett. Indeed, he could not convince himself. Strauss knew perfectly well that philosophy could not refute relativism ("radical historicism"), hence his helplessness before Heidegger's parlour tricks. Strauss gave up on Nietzsche largely because Heidegger offered a sharper critique of rationalism. (Garrett's interpretation of Nietzsche as a philosemite seems idiosyncratic, to say the least, considering that Nietzsche denounced his erstwhile idol Wagner as a Jew after Wagner made peace with Christianity in Parsifal.)

Critics of the neo-conservatives accuse them of following Machiavelli, via Strauss. The charge sticks to Michael Ledeen, but surely not to Irving Kristol, the "godfather" of neo-conservatism, who spurned Machiavelli as a "the first nihilist". Who cares? Machiavelli was a Florentine lightweight who hoped that the poisoner Cesare Borgia would unite Italy. What Italian has done anything of political importance in the past 500 years? What effect on history had all the stiletto-and-arsenic games of the Italian condottiere?

Grim men of faith - Loyola, Oldebarnevelt, Richilieu, Mazarin - led the religious wars of the 16th and 17th centuries, while the Florentines amused the tourists (The sacred heart of darkness, February 11). The trouble with Strauss, I reiterate, is that he was an atheist, rather a disadvantage in a religious war. The West has no armed prophet. It doesn't even have an armed theologian.

i disagree. many christian sects have used violence, starvation, manipulations, etc etc, that ended with tribes being wipeout, loss of heritage, loss of tradition.
The christians motto seemed to of been, "conform or be castout"
The history of christians, and catholics, even present day, use these tactics on tribes they encounter around the globe.
When ones looks at the past and present, i dont understand why its white people who still cross the street to "feel safer" when the encounter a group of minorities standing on the sidewalk. Seems to me the african americans and other minorities would be the ones crossing the street to feel safer when they saw a white peson, probably christian, coming their way.



dai*ma:stoned:

[Bong30]

how did you go from that ^^^ to Black and white....

We have learned Diama.... I dont convert by the sowrd.

The pope appligized for the crusades.....

like i tell my kids..its ok to make a mistake as long as you learn from it....

I dont go to church or nothing...

so why would the black people cross the street from me?

The black people are radical christians if anything... why do dhte cal it the bible belt?

you twist the truth to fit your hate...........( for white people, that is easy to see)

[daima]

how did you go from that ^^^ to Black and white....

We have learned Diama.... I dont convert by the sowrd.

The pope appligized for the crusades.....

like i tell my kids..its ok to make a mistake as long as you learn from it....

I dont go to church or nothing...

so why would the black people cross the street from me?

The black people are radical christians if anything... why do dhte cal it the bible belt?

you twist the truth to fit your hate...........( for white people, that is easy to see)

well a sword is a sword, but when methods are used and the results are the same as the sword, it doesnt make much difference, does it?
I dont hate white people, but i do hate what many white people do, while claiming to be "good decent christians"
I dont twist the "truth".
My truth may vary from the truth of others.., obvioulsy.

I am "white" and because of my paint job i am privy to what many whites say.
I have a neighbor (white) who has a black friend and treats her black friend well. But when the friends are together my neighbor says " i couldnt live in Oakland. Its too black. What a bigot.
The media portrays people of color as untrustworthy, and has since the invention of tv.
You see, us white folks like to give names to other whites who commit crimes, instead of using the color code like we do with minorities.
Hitler was white, but we didnt use his race to describe what he did. The word used was, Nazi. But when blacks commit a crime its just about always "did you see what the blacks did? do you dig what im trying to tell you?
Hell, white folks worked with Hitler in this country. Henry Ford was given a medal by Hitler himself that was the highest award a non-german could recieve. Ford also ran antisemetic newspaper out of Detroit.

I dont hate white folks.
I was just thumbin through the station on my own television
when i came across this guy on this religious station that sounded whiter than me somehow, wow
it took me back to the days of dwindlin joy when i was a guilt ridden jewish boy, i'm evangelical gnostic now. lol:D

peace,
dai*ma

[Bong30]

Hitler killed white people....
Left wing whackos protesed in central park that hitler was missunderstood????


you have stuff all mixed up....

I am rasing my kids like i was raised to judge people by there actions.....not by there race.

some sterotypes fit daima.....there is a hint of truth in each one.

You still judge the person on his/ her honor. in my book.

[MastaChronic]

fuck skin color, by the steriotypes i am...untrustworthy, lazy and two faced...but still a good, hard working, christian citizen.

thats by the steriotypes, i am actually trustworthy, open minded, lazy, athiestic, hate filled and angry....thats not all i am, but just a few facets of my personality.

[mrdevious]

Bong's post makes a good point. Our hazy, conflicting, vague ideology about who the enemies are is going to make winning this war very difficult. I'm sure we disagree on the details, but the general idea is right.

For instance, you have one group of followers of extreme liberalism who believe that no war is EVER justified, for any reason, no matter how obvious the threat is. These people would complacently allow us to be conquered by hate-filled maniacs who twist religion for their own ends.

Then you have the the far-righters (not all of course, just like not all liberals) who have taken such a generalized, vague view of the enemy that they believe that because the enemy is middle-eastern, any war, anywhere in the middle east is therefor a war with terrorism by default.

Just because certain extremists declare that they are fighting in the name of all islam, doesn't mean all Islamics are on their side. Just like George Bush invading Iraq in the name of American freedom, doesn't mean every freedom-loving american is in support of the war. The real solution to winning this war is through winning the hearts and minds of the Islamic people, but guiding this war logically. We need to clearly identify who the enemy is, not distract ourselves with useless wars like Iraq, and zero in on the true enemies and propogandists embedded within the Muslim world. This is why I'm for the war in Afghanistan, and against the one in Iraq. Saddam may have been an evil son of a bitch, but he was still an enemy of most terrorist states and a counter-balance to our considerably more immediate enemies. Enemies can be as usefull as allies, depending on how you manipulate the situation.

[Krogith]

Bong's post makes a good point. Our hazy, conflicting, vague ideology about who the enemies are is going to make winning this war very difficult. I'm sure we disagree on the details, but the general idea is right.

For instance, you have one group of followers of extreme liberalism who believe that no war is EVER justified, for any reason, no matter how obvious the threat is. These people would complacently allow us to be conquered by hate-filled maniacs who twist religion for their own ends.

Then you have the the far-righters (not all of course, just like not all liberals) who have taken such a generalized, vague view of the enemy that they believe that because the enemy is middle-eastern, any war, anywhere in the middle east is therefor a war with terrorism by default.

Just because certain extremists declare that they are fighting in the name of all islam, doesn't mean all Islamics are on their side. Just like George Bush invading Iraq in the name of American freedom, doesn't mean every freedom-loving american is in support of the war. The real solution to winning this war is through winning the hearts and minds of the Islamic people, but guiding this war logically. We need to clearly identify who the enemy is, not distract ourselves with useless wars like Iraq, and zero in on the true enemies and propogandists embedded within the Muslim world. This is why I'm for the war in Afghanistan, and against the one in Iraq. Saddam may have been an evil son of a bitch, but he was still an enemy of most terrorist states and a counter-balance to our considerably more immediate enemies. Enemies can be as usefull as allies, depending on how you manipulate the situation.

Yes! What is your ideas on Iran?
I thought The Usa was Attacked (9/11) by Al-Qaeda?

[Zimzum]

Until both sides can at least sit down and talk the war will go no where. Open dialog with not just Iran, but every middle eastern country. First meeting they can just shoot the shit with stuff like "So hows the weather". Move up to the more important aspects. Iran has tried to talk with the US about its nuclear ambitions even before we went shooting up Iraq. They did halt there activities for 2 years.. In that time the US ignored them so they continued. Now there at where there at today. Both sides trying to flex there mussels and intimidate each other. The US is willing to talk now but with conditions first... Stuff that should come out of a dialog and not an absolute demand before hand.

[PigSnout]

well a sword is a sword, but when methods are used and the results are the same as the sword, it doesnt make much difference, does it?
I dont hate white people, but i do hate what many white people do, while claiming to be "good decent christians"
I dont twist the "truth".
My truth may vary from the truth of others.., obvioulsy.

I am "white" and because of my paint job i am privy to what many whites say.
I have a neighbor (white) who has a black friend and treats her black friend well. But when the friends are together my neighbor says " i couldnt live in Oakland. Its too black. What a bigot.
The media portrays people of color as untrustworthy, and has since the invention of tv.
You see, us white folks like to give names to other whites who commit crimes, instead of using the color code like we do with minorities.
Hitler was white, but we didnt use his race to describe what he did. The word used was, Nazi. But when blacks commit a crime its just about always "did you see what the blacks did? do you dig what im trying to tell you?
Hell, white folks worked with Hitler in this country. Henry Ford was given a medal by Hitler himself that was the highest award a non-german could recieve. Ford also ran antisemetic newspaper out of Detroit.

I dont hate white folks.
I was just thumbin through the station on my own television
when i came across this guy on this religious station that sounded whiter than me somehow, wow
it took me back to the days of dwindlin joy when i was a guilt ridden jewish boy, i'm evangelical gnostic now. lol:D

peace,
dai*ma

Let me clue you in sport. People in every race/religion have prejudice.

"you see us white people" You don't speak for white people you arrogant clown.

[daima]

Hitler killed white people....
Left wing whackos protesed in central park that hitler was missunderstood????


you have stuff all mixed up....

I am rasing my kids like i was raised to judge people by there actions.....not by there race.

some sterotypes fit daima.....there is a hint of truth in each one.

You still judge the person on his/ her honor. in my book.

Hitler killed
Jews(regardless of color)
Many Italians
The handicapped(regardless of color)
Gays(regardless of color)
communist
gypsys
any one considered an intellectual(regardless of color)
any person giving support or hiding the above mentioned.(regardles of color)

you see, bob, hitler just didnt kill, whites, you wont hear "did you see what those whites did?"

sterotypes can be as flawed, and usually are, as the bush "presidency"

[F L E S H]

One little problem with the post:

While there might 1 billion Muslims, about 1% of them are radicals. While that still makes 10,000,000 radicals, it doesn't compare to the population of Europe and North America.

[Moose101]

Hitler killed the weak, or rather what he concidered the weak. In doing so he probably killed thousands of diseases in the process. That was most likely his intention. Maybe the only cure for AIDs is another Hitler. Take a look at the hospitals in Europe, they are all flourishing because of him. BTW, he had all kinds of "intellectuals" in his war. Tactians, doctors, scientists an such. I think all that racial killing was to gratify the Germans self importance. I heard a lot of respected German scientists high tailed it out of there when the war started, so they were definately in need. There were gay soldiers. They used them to screw with the heads of their prisoners. At least that's what I read in a book.

[Zimzum]

Hitler killed the weak, or rather what he concidered the weak. In doing so he probably killed thousands of diseases in the process. That was most likely his intention. Maybe the only cure for AIDs is another Hitler. Take a look at the hospitals in Europe, they are all flourishing because of him. BTW, he had all kinds of "intellectuals" in his war. Tactians, doctors, scientists an such. I think all that racial killing was to gratify the Germans self importance. I heard a lot of respected German scientists high tailed it out of there when the war started, so they were definately in need. There were gay soldiers. They used them to screw with the heads of their prisoners. At least that's what I read in a book.

Please tell me that was sarcasm.

[divestoned]

i believe the islamist fight and die in the name of god (which doesnt exist)therefore there opinions,like there future ..are based on make believe.anyone so ignorant as too blow themselves up (as a military tactic and in the name of god) does not deserve to live and will soon be abolished.

[Nocturnal Stoner]

i believe the islamist fight and die in the name of god (which doesnt exist)therefore there opinions,like there future ..are based on make believe.anyone so ignorant as too blow themselves up (as a military tactic and in the name of god) does not deserve to live and will soon be abolished.

don't talk so freely about "many" peoples beliefs, you may offend someone

[daima]

Let me clue you in sport. People in every race/religion have prejudice.

"you see us white people" You don't speak for white people you arrogant clown.

i never speak for anyone but myself.
That being said, there are people in this world who depend on my voice and i am happy to lend it to their cause if i find their cause to be a cause i am willing to defend.

dai*ma:stoned:
hey little buddy
dont get angry
oh god, please at least not at me
you know that i am right behind you
all the way ol'compadre you
just say what ever you want too and
i'll agree:confused:

I have a confession that is obvious to those with a iq higher than their shoe size. For those (like yourself) who havent obtained that state of bliss (iq higher then 9 or 10). I can be an arrogant clown, and usually am.
You have been warned.

a clown puts his make-up on upside down
so he wears a smile even when he wears a frown
you might think i'm here when you put me down
but actually i'm playing my guitar and hittin my bong:D

[HinduKush83]

You watch too much Fox News or 24 Bong with this innate fear that radical Muslims are on a quest for worldwide domination and trying to kill. It's a scare tactic to keep you in fear and make sure you comply. We don't have near that much bullshit in Canada. You should look at your leaders to find the real cause of evil.

[HinduKush83]

One little problem with the post:

While there might 1 billion Muslims, about 1% of them are radicals. While that still makes 10,000,000 radicals, it doesn't compare to the population of Europe and North America.Give it up Bong..we're not buying the hate articles,

[PigSnout]

i never speak for anyone but myself.
That being said, there are people in this world who depend on my voice and i am happy to lend it to their cause if i find their cause to be a cause i am willing to defend.
sure they do :D


I have a confession that is obvious to those with a iq higher than their shoe size. For those (like yourself) who havent obtained that state of bliss (iq higher then 9 or 10). .
iq higher than not then lol


I can be an arrogant clown, and usually am.
You have been warned.
cool thanks for the heads up


a clown puts his make-up on upside down
so he wears a smile even when he wears a frown
you might think i'm here when you put me down
but actually i'm playing my guitar and hittin my bong:D
down
frown
down
bong... bong?

how does that rhyme? stoners lol :thumbsup: :rasta:

[xblackdogx]

Please tell me that was sarcasm.

it wasn't,
i know, how sad



I heard a lot of respected German scientists high tailed it out of there when the war started, so they were definately in need. There were gay soldiers. They used them to screw with the heads of their prisoners. At least that's what I read in a book.


they were high tailed to the united states,
and so were the "cherry" marines...
word is, that we still have "special" marines in HIGH
places these days as well!

[Moose101]

Zimzum, what do you want from me? You of all people shouldn't get righteous on me. Americans killed way more people than Hitler. And those murders were about as dirty as murder can get.

[mrdevious]

Zimzum, what do you want from me? You of all people shouldn't get righteous on me. Americans killed way more people than Hitler. And those murders were about as dirty as murder can get.

True, but America had 230 years to commit their killings, Hitler only had 12. I'm sure if you gave him a little more time he'd more than do his part.

[daima]

sure they do :D


iq higher than not then lol


cool thanks for the heads up


down
frown
down
bong... bong?

how does that rhyme? stoners lol :thumbsup: :rasta:

never thought about it needing to rhyme. do you find it needs to rhyme? if so, why?
then, than? lmao geesh

dai*ma:stoned:
roses are red
violets are blue
most poems rhyme
but not all poems do;)

[Fengzi]

Bong's post makes a good point. Our hazy, conflicting, vague ideology about who the enemies are is going to make winning this war very difficult. I'm sure we disagree on the details, but the general idea is right.

For instance, you have one group of followers of extreme liberalism who believe that no war is EVER justified, for any reason, no matter how obvious the threat is. These people would complacently allow us to be conquered by hate-filled maniacs who twist religion for their own ends.

Then you have the the far-righters (not all of course, just like not all liberals) who have taken such a generalized, vague view of the enemy that they believe that because the enemy is middle-eastern, any war, anywhere in the middle east is therefor a war with terrorism by default.

Just because certain extremists declare that they are fighting in the name of all islam, doesn't mean all Islamics are on their side. Just like George Bush invading Iraq in the name of American freedom, doesn't mean every freedom-loving american is in support of the war. The real solution to winning this war is through winning the hearts and minds of the Islamic people, but guiding this war logically. We need to clearly identify who the enemy is, not distract ourselves with useless wars like Iraq, and zero in on the true enemies and propogandists embedded within the Muslim world. This is why I'm for the war in Afghanistan, and against the one in Iraq. Saddam may have been an evil son of a bitch, but he was still an enemy of most terrorist states and a counter-balance to our considerably more immediate enemies. Enemies can be as usefull as allies, depending on how you manipulate the situation.

I agree 100%. The war in Afghanistan was the right thing to do. Even countries which we would expect to be against us, China, Pakistan, etc. gave us the thumbs up. There we had a specific target, Al Qeada and the Taliban, well known radical groups who had done us a great wrong.

Going after Iraq, on the other hand, was probably the worst thing we could have done. It took the focus off of going after the bad guys, who just happned to be Muslim, and put it on going after Muslims. I am certain that G Dubya has done far more for Al Qeada recruitment than Osama Bin Laden could ever have dreamed of. If we are so concerned about the 1% of Mulims who are extremists, why do we do our best to raise that # to 2%?

[voltabud]

that afghani grass will lay you out

[HighTillIDie]

silly; crazy, fuckin, magic believing, religous people, tricks are for kids