If God exists..

[GHoSToKeR]

..then why doesn't he prove it? He created Man in His image, so surely he can understand the complexities of the Human brain. Surely he knows that after thousands of years without proof, some of us are going to start doubting His existence. So if he proved it back then, why won't he prove it now? I mean, all he needs to do is give us one sign - one unquestionable, irrifutable piece of evidence - and all of us 'non-believers' will believe.

People say that He doesn't prove himself because we have to prove our faith.. But how can He expect us to have faith in Him when nobody has apparantly seen or heard Him for thousands of years? For an omniscient Being, that seems like a huge flaw in His plan.

"God works in mysterious ways". How do you know that? If He hasn't been seen, heard or even communicated with for so long, then how do you know how He works? How do you know He even still exists? Maybe he was some all-powerful being then, but what if he doesn't exist anymore? There's no way of knowing if He still exists, so it's a possibility.

According to the Bible, if we don't believe in God, then we're sinning and we're going to spend eternity in Hell. But surely, a kind, loving, fair God would give us the opportunity to 'see' Him, or how are we supposed to believe in Him?

If I were to say Elvis is still alive, you would ask for proof (when you were eventully convinced i'm not crazy), but if I couldn't show you any proof, would you still believe me? I doubt it. You'd want proof; you wouldn't be able to just take my word for it. So, without any proof of God's existence, why do people believ in Him?

The strangest arguement I hear is "But how did all this come to be? The trees, the sky, animals, you, me.. how did we get here?". Just because you don't know all the answers, it doesn't mean that whatever story you come up with must be the truth. You have no proof that God put all this here, and I have no proof that a Giant Blue Three Headed Penis Monster put all this here.. So why is my theory any less believable than yours?

Discuss. lol :)

[Imotep]

yeah for sure.
why didnt he make the rules easier. he's not a loving god, he's a high maintenance lamb huggin bitch.
jesus and all his-you cannot come to the father but by me. bloody hell, if he created the universe in all its wonder sureley he could have though up a much better way to get into heaven. all this- do this, cant do that, fear of god stuff. why didnt he just make it that we couldnt sin?
oh yeah, the whole satan thing...
hang on, he was one of gods angels originally aye? why didnt he make them better? even god had quality control issues? the US/Bin Laden story?
And of course then we cant question god, its his will dont you know.
Nope sorry. Only an idiot would create the world and then populate it with images of himself that instantly turn evil and struggle until armageddon, to reject the instinct of the animal body, with flames licking their heels, the fear of god in their hearts.
Nope, if the same guy who built the miraculous world ran heaven, he'd definateley be sensible enough to ensure all his creation he loves, can comply with the dress regulations.
But no.
had to turn evil...
Y'know it was just to spice the book up aye.
The bible would be shit without all the stonings and crucifixions and child sacrifice and blood of lambs and giant blue three headed penis monsters. revalations something...look it up lol
:)

[XTC]

You got some good points there. I believe in god, though I have never touched a bible and been to church once and another time for a weeding. Some people have had near death experiences and claim to have talk to god or one of his crew.. lol. My mom swears to this story and I believe her. It was before I was born and she was going through the loss of her mother. She was sobbing herself to sleep on night and she said she was clearly awake and sober when she heard her mothers voice and a light. The voice of my grandmothers ensured my ma that she was okay and she found her place in heaven and she did not need to worry or sob anymore cause death is just a beginning. Kinda weird huh. I think I had an encounter with faith once. IDK maybe just luck and not faith. A few years ago doctors thought I had Diabetes(spelling?) well to find out if I did or not they test you for like 5 hrs. Now somewhere during these 5 hrs I thought to myself in my head "god if I dont have this disease give me a sign. and the second I thought that some woman little casion hand held machine went off. Corny I know but it turned out I didnt have diabetes. Sorry if I was rambling its late and I am so tired....

[Encatuse]

I think if the giant three headed penis monster did put all this here, then he would fit the profile of god. Though not the christian god, close enough for me. Anything who can create something this complex = god.

P.S. This belongs in spirituality I would imagine. Those who don't wish to discuss such topics because they are... say easily offended, should have the option to not click on spirituality and thereby not see it.

[DojaDave]

One of my thoughts is that he does exist or did at one time and he created everything and everything has a part of him in it.

Another one is he just doesn't and never did exist and everything that does was created by some scientifical phenomina.

I've read a lot of stuff about multiple dimensions, string theory, the big bang, etc..I Think if the human race survives long enough, maybe the mysteries of life and everything else will be revealed, its really hard to think all this craziness is all circumstantial, I think something had to set the wheels in motion, wether its some form of god or some atomic reaction, who knows....I'm pretty much neutral on the subject for now.

[Imotep]

this is beyond god.
we are in his image. thats not really a statement you can have much confidence in based on the examples provided, but does explain the complexities of achieving an organised religions bliss.
the miracle of nature is beyond anything that remoteley resembles us in any heavenly existence or form.
wow stay with me-im losing my point lmao :D

[RESiNATE]

been to church once and another time for a weeding.
Is your church overgrown? :eek:
(I know it was a typo, but I couldn't resist - being the sarcastic bastard that I am:D


She was sobbing herself to sleep on night and she said she was clearly awake and sober when she heard her mothers voice and a light.....

On a serious note, though.
I would not disbelieve your mother's story - however, I believe that this experience is born of such a need to know that the recently deceased has 'moved on', that the human brain conjures up these 'voices', etc.
I meant absolutely no disrespect by saying this :)

One spends their life with someone, during which one gets to know about that person's thought processes, ideals, personality, etc etc etc - would it not be reasonable to assume that the comfort message (for lack of a better phrase) came from within your mother - a kinda self-preservation mechanism triggered by her own brain?

The human brain is a complex thing that we know very little about.
I believe that we humans are capable of so much more than we realise, but have forgotten how to do those things. There is so much evidence to support this; the woman who lifts her wreck of a car clear of her baby, following a crash, and even some of those feats of power that are demonstrated by certain martial artists, etc.
I had a near-death experience, but never thought of it as a religious event - I can't explain what it was exactly, and remain mystified as to what I experienced to this day...self-preservation mechanism, that kicked in to protect me from horrific shock?

Einstein, proportedly used up to 25% of his brain, whereas most people use much less - how was he able to harness that amount of processing ability, and we can not?

Most people turn to religion after having suffered gross trauma (loss of a loved one, etc), or have been brought up to believe in a certain faith (brainwashed from youth?) - and yet, no one has provided conclusive evidence that God (or indeed, any deity) exists.

However, I find myself in somewhat of a dilemma;
I don't believe that 'God' exists (in religious terms), or that the world (and Man) was created by Him.
I also have a major problem with Darwin's theory of evolution (how anyone can put forward a theory which lacks a crucial element of proof (ie, the missing link) is beyond my comprehension).
And the 'Big Bang' theory, imo, doesn't hold water either - there still had to be something to start the whole thing off, didn't there?

So what is the answer?

Religion is man-made.
It is something which preys on the fear of the unknown, and a need to find comfort in times of great stress.
I question God, everytime that a good person suffers - everytime I hear stories of cruelty - everytime I see the deaths of innocent people.
Is that 'the wrath of God'?...then, why is He so indiscriminate? Why not just punish the perpetrators of such evilness? Why not give a 'sign' to those that are in the way of Natures events (ie, eartquakes, etc)?

I don't have a problem with anyone having a faith - there are many people who live by the word of their God, who do not cause problems for the whole. In many ways, the 'essence' of religion is something that helps to curb those animal instincts that would otherwise boil over and cause much distress, and so, can only be a good thing.
I will listen to what religous folks would say about their beliefs, and enter into an intelligent debate about such things - but just because I don't subscribe, doesn't make me a bad person - does it?

I consider myself to be 'good' - I would help anyone, if I could. I have respect for Nature, and have an understanding that there are always consequences to any action (cause and effect).

So, I wonder what would happen if we all woke up one day, and every single one of us had no recollection of anything religious based...

I wonder what state the world would be in then.

I do not wish to offend any person's belief - this is just my humble opinion.
I do, however, get slightly miffed, when some people would judge me as something less than what I am, just because I don't subscribe to their way of thinking.

I don't need a book to know how to live my life, but some people do - each to their own...as long as those beliefs don't encroach upon my way of life
:)

Res...

[Junkdogg88]

I Think if the human race survives long enough, maybe the mysteries of life and everything else will be revealed

Well, with all the things going on in the world today, I dout the human race will survive that long. On a long enough timeline the survival rate for humans will drop to zero. What I'm getting at is, we are getting to advanced for our own good, technology that is. We are discovering new things every day. And I belive that discovery is the rape of the natural world. Now we have the power to destroy things within a 100 mile radius. If those bombs(Nukes) fall into the wrong hands then were fucked. Nuclear Warfare is inebadable(sp). Its going to happen sooner or later. If the nukes dont wipe everything then radiation will. There will be a nuclear winter, all in all cancer will kill everyone. sorry for sounding so grime but im just telling the thruth


P.S. Sorry for rambling on:)

[notanovice]

people need hope
the belief in a superior being gives those people hope
as for bright lights, voices, out of body experiences etc. etc.
the brain is a complex organ and can do many many wonderous things!!!

if there really is a god???
may he strike me down now!!!
i`m waiting!!!!
i`m still here!!!
wait a minute, is that a bright light?
uncle jimmy, is that you?
fuck it, there`s no god in my world!!!
notice I said MY WORLD
which is MY OPINION

[clevemire]

I agree with you 100% there Ghost.

This is how I see it:
Science has an explanation for just about everything you can think of.

The religious try to pass off their ancient texts as proof of their empty claims of life. Oh gee, someone 2000 years ago or more wrote a story book. If it's that old, it simply must be true!

I love coming upon religious types who ask us that age old question "Well, if there is no God, where did everything come from? God created the heavens and the universe."
My response being "Who created God?"
Their retort is usually "God has always been."
To which I say "If your God could have always been, why can't existance have always been? The universe is enormous. There is no way to travel it all, to measure it all. There are billions and billions and billions and billions of miles of uncharted darkness out there, beyond what we can see, and it's still growing. There is hard scientific evidence of stars and commodoties that are well beyond the age of our planet and our solar system. So what then? Did God just sit around for eons creating different things at different times? Where is he now? Why was he all over the place back then, up to 2000 years ago, and now he is just gone? Why did he stop showing just about the time that the texts were written about him?"

There are other, older religions that have multiple gods. Zues, for instance. How come the idea of a god of lightning, among other gods, is rediculous to everyone else but who really believes in it? The muslims believe in Allah. Christians just have 'God' (they weren't even trying to think of a cool name like everyone else.). So in other words, different cultures have their dietys. Each one is just as believable, or rediculous, as the next.

As Res said. Religion is man-made. Dietys are just as real as the Tooth Fairy and the Easter Bunny. Just on a much larger, and more fanatical level.

Neither side of the argument can state where it all started, or provide any proof thereof, so IMO, it's not worth worrying about.

I look at all religion as a cult. Plain and simple. I get on my knees for no one or nothing.

[F L E S H]

I really think the search for God is a personal one. If you need something to believe in, you will find God if you look hard enough. On the other hand, for people like myself, I don't feel the need at all to faith in something bigger than me or you, I am satisfied with science, evolution, and I believe that religion is just a security blanket for people who need one.

I just learned that if someone wants to believe, as long as they don't try to force me to believe too, it's their right and if it makes them happy all the better. I also learned there's no point in arguing with them because it always comes down to a question of faith, and there's no counter-argument to faith.

On second thought, I can't really I don't believe, I just don't know... I guess I'm an agnostic then. Even stuff that happened in the Bible, all of it is easily explainable in scientific terms. I saw a documentary on TV that explained each of Egypt's 10 plagues, it fascinating. I saw aother show talking about plants, and Moses's burning bush is a naturally occurring phenomenon because the sap in this species becomes highly flammable (similar to pine sap) and sometimes all it takes is a spark for it to light up.

In the end, I simply believe it's a matter of need. If a traumatic event scars you emotionally, you might need the comfort of religion to help you cope with it. Or you might not.

God, Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, you know what these words all have in common? They all simply mean 'god', no more, no less.

[Ammie]

god shows himself to u and many defferent ways or forms u just have to stop callin it luck. for me it was when i went to Florida i was stuck at the bus station i got my purse stolen lola couldnt get there because she was locked in her house. i was stuck with a hurricane commin and no money to get anywhere. This man came up to me and asked it he could pray for me (mind u i didnt tell him anything that had happened to me) he just felt the need to pray. Well when he started prayin at first i was like what a flake but the things he was askin god for was spot on what i needed. everything that had just happened to me he knew. he told me that god said not to worry it will all work out and very soon that i would be ok. i just looked at him kinda funny and went on my way. I was freakin out still because like i said there was a hurricane commin and my purse was stolen so i had nothing. Well i was sittin there tryin to figure out what i was goin to do and all of a sudden this older man walked up to me and said. I have this feeling in my heart to help u I know ur situation and i will see to it that u are taken care of and get to where ever it is u need to go. He got me a taxi cab and paid $180 for me to get to lolas house and even gave me alil money for while i was there. This man had never met me before and i hadnt told him anything about my situation. I feel that god sent him to take care of me and he did very well. I got where i needed to go in enuff time so that i didnt get stuck in the hurricane and on my way to the cab i had a feelin to check in the trash can and there sits my frickin purse lol. there wasnt nothing in there but my ID's and stuff but thats all i really wanted anyways. so in the end i got a way to get where i needed to be and be safe i found my purse and i now have a new respect for god. But he made himself real to me. even tho it was thru a human person. there is no way anyone can just know that stuff i never said a word to anyone they just knew that i needed. I have never seen this man again. he wouldnt give me his name or addy so i could send the money back. But i have a feelin god is taken very good care of him for what he had done for me. So this is y i belive god is real. it might be different for u all. U just have to open ur eyes and accept that he might not come to u in a god like form it could be someone that just helps u thru a hard time. but u feel it when it happens just open ur hearts and ur minds to the option and stop lookin so much into it. some things are right in front of ur face and u are to blind to see.

[clevemire]

I really think the search for God is a personal one. If you need something to believe in, you will find God if you look hard enough. On the other hand, for people like myself, I don't feel the need at all to faith in something bigger than me or you, I am satisfied with science, evolution, and I believe that religion is just a security blanket for people who need one.

I just learned that if someone wants to believe, as long as they don't try to force me to believe too, it's their right and if it makes them happy all the better. I also learned there's no point in arguing with them because it always comes down to a question of faith, and there's no counter-argument to faith.

On second thought, I can't really I don't believe, I just don't know... I guess I'm an agnostic then. Even stuff that happened in the Bible, all of it is easily explainable in scientific terms. I saw a documentary on TV that explained each of Egypt's 10 plagues, it fascinating. I saw aother show talking about plants, and Moses's burning bush is a naturally occurring phenomenon because the sap in this species becomes highly flammable (similar to pine sap) and sometimes all it takes is a spark for it to light up.

In the end, I simply believe it's a matter of need. If a traumatic event scars you emotionally, you might need the comfort of religion to help you cope with it. Or you might not.

God, Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, you know what these words all have in common? They all simply mean 'god', no more, no less.I really like what you said dude. You worded it perfectly. :)

[juanskee]

God, Allah, Yahweh, Zeus, you know what these words all have in common? They all simply mean 'god', no more, no less.

I'm sure It did mean more 3000-7000 years ago. In the beggining. Killing from village to village,rock to rock. when populations accumulate and live together. When tribes merge and kings are ruthless. Not so much love and right choices where made. So much hate,slavery in the beggining so much killing & rapeing has brought today a Good one.

We as a human race have come so far to repeat it all over again. I'd say we are pretty lucky to be living the time we are. It should only get better for OUR children in the future, until the end

If you think we evolved from a molecular gastric plasma parasitic ooze then I feel sorry for ya. EXACT Conditions need to be manipulated for whatever to happen. Who's the manipulator is what you wanna know.

I think I make a good arguement but I could be wrong.

[juanskee]

Well, with all the things going on in the world today, I dout the human race will survive that long. On a long enough timeline the survival rate for humans will drop to zero. What I'm getting at is, we are getting to advanced for our own good, technology that is. We are discovering new things every day. And I belive that discovery is the rape of the natural world. Now we have the power to destroy things within a 100 mile radius. If those bombs(Nukes) fall into the wrong hands then were fucked. Nuclear Warfare is inebadable(sp). Its going to happen sooner or later. If the nukes dont wipe everything then radiation will. There will be a nuclear winter, all in all cancer will kill everyone. sorry for sounding so grime but im just telling the thruth


P.S. Sorry for rambling on:)
That wont happen dont worry. ;)

[Junkdogg88]

Lets hope not.

[ZIPPERMOON]

For all you people interested in science and do not believe in God then May I suggest reading 2 books....The first Book is By Marvin L. Lebenow TITLE Bones Of Contention the second book Author Lee Strobel TITLE The Case For Christ This is a journalist's Personal Investigation of the evidence for Jesus. These books may help you understand things you didnt know were there to know.

[clevemire]

If you think we evolved from a molecular gastric plasma parasitic ooze then I feel sorry for ya. EXACT Conditions need to be manipulated for whatever to happen. Who's the manipulator is what you wanna know.
Are you aware of the size of the universe? Who is to say that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe with walking, talking and thinking creatures? Are you insinuating we are the only? Again, believers like to say God has always been. Well, why can't this state of existance have always been? The 'exact conditions' you speak of could have always existed in some way, shape or form, but just never came together in our part of existance (ie all that we know as a civilization) until as of late. Galaxies and stars are born all of the time. Just not at the same time. There is always something older than the oldest physical entity you can find. There is proof of that. However, there is no proof whatsoever of the magical diety you speak of, excpet for what the believers tell you. With religion, it's always tell tell tell, never show. The only show they have are relics of believers past.
What proof do you have that there even was a 'beginning'? Sure, there was a beginning to our form of mankind, but the universe expands. There are different solar systems.. galaxies and stars that we cannot see, or even know exist. Who's to say that there is no other planet like Earth?
I am sorry if any of the above has offended you. I am not saying that my thinking is absolute by any means. However, my point is, is that the argument of your God always exsiting, is just as believable as the other side's argument, the conditions for life always existing. My only other argument is, that we have more proof of this kind of thinking.
Belief is not proof.

[F L E S H]

I really like what you said dude. You worded it perfectly. :)
thanks for the compliment, cleve :D


If you think we evolved from a molecular gastric plasma parasitic ooze then I feel sorry for ya. EXACT Conditions need to be manipulated for whatever to happen. Who's the manipulator is what you wanna know.
Don't need to feel sorry for me dude. I'm pretty happy last I checked. I'm just not a big fan of this kind of condescending tone religious people spout at me. In my post I made of point of saying that I don't care what people around me believe, as long as they don't force their beliefs on me. And yes, a condescending and patronizing tone is a way to try and force your opinion on me.

If it makes you feel better to think that God had something to do with creation, it's your right and I'm happy that you believe in something bigger than ourselves. Maybe you have something to look forward after death, and for that I can only admire you.

I don't believe in any sort of creation. Yes, the odds of everything happening just the way they did on a molecular level is infinitesimally small, yet it happened. and like Cleve said, the Universe is big beyond our comprehension, so who's to say that similar conditions don't exist somewhere else? And supposing they do, we couldn't even begin to imagine what life somewhere else might look like, given entirely different environmental conditions. In other words, there's no way to know until we lok at the right place :)

I major in History in University, and that's one of the main reasons I feel I can't possibly adhere to any organized religion. The way modern christianity came into being, the way organized religion works (more politics than faith), the disgusting excesses of the Catholic Church from around A.D. 800 to 1945, I just can't believe what they tell me to believe. But that's just me, and everyone else is free to form their own opinion.

[GHoSToKeR]

i like this thread :) lol

[HighPriestessofPot]

Reality is what you perceive it to be. My reality may in fact not be your reality. I will fall in love with a person that you will not fall in love with because in my reality the person is beautiful in every respect, yet in yours, this person is lacking something you need. Thus it is with faith and religion and God. Who is to say that each reality isn't valid. Why do we look for one truth? Perhaps, like nature, there are as many truths are there are sands on the beach; and indeed, this is the case for my truth is not yours.
This being the case, who then can say they only have the truth and no-one else does?
I choose to believe in God because I have had, what I feel to be, many signs that are not statistically coincidental.
I am a late stage cancer patient. My truth is that everything will be alright in the end regardless of theories, conjectures, and paradymns. Your truth might be a nightmare.
We choose our truth and that is another truth according to my truths. You may not agree, but then you don't have to, because I am entitled to my reality, just as you are entitled to yours. Ever watched two people argue who you really like and see just how they are both saying something that is true, yet the other insists that only their version is true. Then you see how silly it is when we refuse to look at other perspectives and views of the universe. Perhaps these people are truly saying the same thing and cannot see it, for whatever reason, but you can and lo and behold, you see one truth that only appears to be two.

[F L E S H]

i like this thread :) lol

Me too :D :D :D

[GotAMinute419]

maybe hes working on a new project

[tumbleweed]

i guarantee were all just monkeys that learned to walk talk
and put the weed in a pipe instead of eating it off the branch

[tumbleweed]

an even better thread might be about the organ
in our body we dont use 85% of, you know the one
that controls our
bodies functions and imagination which has puzzled
scientists to this day

ask god why were the dominant species on this rock
and why wont he let us use the 85%

psst what if we could levitate things our BRAINS
ovynmayvn

[Mrs PotatoHead]

But he made himself real to me. even tho it was thru a human person. there is no way anyone can just know that stuff i never said a word to anyone they just knew that i needed.

I found your story interesting because a very similar thing happened to my mum. I can't remember the exact details, but she was the one giving the help. She said one day she was going about her own business and for some reason a lady caught her attention she said that at first she just kept on walking but that she had an overwhelming feeling of needing to help this lady (my mum insists that on the outside the lady did not look distressed or in need of help). So she went up to her and said I know this may sound weird but do you need some help. My mum swears that at this point she said she felt the overwhelming need to pray for this lady and just prayed that she was kept safe. Story goes that because my mum had this encounter with the lady she narrowly missed being involved in an accident (can't remember any other details) and that because of this my mum believes whole heartedly that there is a god. She does not believe in organised religion though and only ever told me this story once, because she believes that your faith is a personal journey that people should not interfere with unless invited. I of course came up with hundreds of arguments and she said that her motivation to help this woman could not be explained any other way.

Any how if this is true then why are so many people who do believe suffering? Why does god if it exists think it is necessary for some to suffer great deals. I don't expect you to answer, it just makes me wonder.

[Torog]

Howdy Mrs. PotatoHead,

You wonder:" Any how if this is true then why are so many people who do believe suffering? Why does god if it exists think it is necessary for some to suffer great deals. I don't expect you to answer, it just makes me wonder."

God exists because He is Alpha and Omega..this mortal coil is for us to learn the lessons of Life,not to sit around in Paradise,that comes after we depart this mortal coil,and return home..to our Creator.

God isn't causing bad things to happen and making folks suffer,He gave us the incredible blessing of Free Will,it is our choice's,that cause folks to suffer and for bad things to happen. When God steps into this physical plane,you will know it-whether it's to bless or to wreak judgement,or to perform miracles.

God knows and expects that Christians and the meek,will suffer persecution..and He does not give us more than we can bear,ye that labor-and are heavy laden..Jesus Christ has said that He will bear your burden..if ye but come unto Him.

May God Bless y'all..and Happy Thanksgiving !! Praise God and be thankful unto Him..for your many blessings ! In the Name of Jesus Christ,Amen !

Have a good one...Torog:)

[kr1Nx01]

an even better thread might be about the organ
in our body we dont use 85% of, you know the one
that controls our
bodies functions and imagination which has puzzled
scientists to this day

Actually that's a bit misconstrued. Humans typically only use 15% of their brain at any given time, but it's being used in various parts of the brain as needed (therefore 85% is NOT being used at any given time). In fact, humans have virtually-full (but not complete) use of their entire brain, they just don't use it all at the exact same time. it's being used in differant sections at differant times.

or something like that. kinda hard to explain when you're high :(

[Mrs PotatoHead]

[QUOTE=Torog]God knows and expects that Christians and the meek,will suffer persecution..and He does not give us more than we can bear,ye that labor-and are heavy laden..Jesus Christ has said that He will bear your burden..if ye but come unto Him.
[QUOTE]

thanks for the biblical rather preachy explanation if it serves your purpose then good for you. Just wondering where you a minister earlier on in your life?
:)

[Torog]

[QUOTE=Torog]God knows and expects that Christians and the meek,will suffer persecution..and He does not give us more than we can bear,ye that labor-and are heavy laden..Jesus Christ has said that He will bear your burden..if ye but come unto Him.
[QUOTE]

thanks for the biblical rather preachy explanation if it serves your purpose then good for you. Just wondering where you a minister earlier on in your life?
:)
Howdy Mrs. PotatoHead,

Nope,I have never been a preacher..however,I do believe in God and His Son,Jesus Christ..my Faith is un-shakeable in that regard.

I don't understand,how anyone who likes marijuana,can say that there's no God..it seems to me..that only a loving and Divine Creator,could have fashioned a plant whose qualities can only be described as miraculous,both in it's intent and scope..there's no other plant,that is capable of so many benefits,to all members of the Human species. The next closest plant,hemp,is also a miracle and is a healer of both Humans and the Earth.

Praise the Lord !

Have a good one...Torog :D

[Imotep]

mahommed is buddah is jesus is love.
all roads lead to rome.
sure your god can beat up my god but we'll be in the same place in the end.
this thread is good.
peace of 1000 corpses.

[ZIPPERMOON]

Like I mentioned earlier it never hurts to read a good book on this subject. I would seriously look into the books I listed on my other thread.


For all you people interested in science and do not believe in God then May I suggest reading 2 books....The first Book is By Marvin L. Lebenow TITLE Bones Of Contention the second book Author Lee Strobel TITLE The Case For Christ This is a journalist's Personal Investigation of the evidence for Jesus. These books may help you understand things you didnt know were there to know.

These books are intense!!

[GHoSToKeR]

Okay, Ammie and Mrs Potato Head... so these things happend, ok, but why does it mean that God exists!?! It doesn't make sense.. it's like "Something good happened, so God must exist"????? Mrs Potato, think about this - why would God help your mom to save that woman from an accident, but do nothing to stop the World Trade Centers being destroyed, or stop all those children in that Russian school from being killed!?!? NOW do you still think it was an act of God?

I'm sick of people praising God for good things that happen, and not blaming him for bad things that happen.. if he is leavin us to free will, why would he do good? surely if he can do good, then he can stop bad from happening? It doesnt make sense..

people should start taking responsibility for their own lives.. instead of 'trusting God'.. because you praise God for the good things, but that doesnt stop bad things happening.. so youre not really any better off

anywya, im probably gonna get flamed for sayin that, so yea

[Ammie]

Okay, Ammie and Mrs Potato Head... so these things happend, ok, but why does it mean that God exists!?! It doesn't make sense.. it's like "Something good happened, so God must exist"????? Mrs Potato, think about this - why would God help your mom to save that woman from an accident, but do nothing to stop the World Trade Centers being destroyed, or stop all those children in that Russian school from being killed!?!? NOW do you still think it was an act of God?

I'm sick of people praising God for good things that happen, and not blaming him for bad things that happen.. if he is leavin us to free will, why would he do good? surely if he can do good, then he can stop bad from happening? It doesnt make sense..

people should start taking responsibility for their own lives.. instead of 'trusting God'.. because you praise God for the good things, but that doesnt stop bad things happening.. so youre not really any better off

anywya, im probably gonna get flamed for sayin that, so yea

thats just how we feel about the situation in our hearts that dont me u have to feel the same. I had and overwhelming feelin when all this happened to me and i knew what it was. He made himself very real to me. People always want to balime god to all the worng and bad things but ur forgetin hes not all thats out there its a battle everyday good vs evil eveyone knows that. God gave us the freedom to make our own choices and deal with the repercusstions. But again ill say this just because this is how i feel about things and how i make sense of it dont mean anyone else needs to do the same :)

[juanskee]

Are you aware of the size of the universe? Who is to say that Earth is the only planet in the entire universe with walking, talking and thinking creatures? .

Hmmm. I didn't really say god created human ;) I am studying the old testament @ my University this semester & Taking biology ironically at the same time. I think it's helped me quite a bit in trying to understand but it's fruitless.

The old T and sources J E D P
To be honest with you it's just a published book well the first ever published book. Do I beleive it No!(It's just beliefs once again) but I respect it's words like none other. Honestly our creator could very well be extraterrestrials. Like you said cleve "BIG UNIVERSE". I mean something that big. look at all the possibilities on earth alone. The universe and possibilities seem unimanigiable. In all the time in the world Mankind will never figure how to make life without manipulation. Something sooooooooooooooooooooooo complicated

Look at evoulution for a second.
The day of the lizard:Dinasours...prehistoric 'hot'
The day of the mammals:Mammoths.Sabertooths...Ice Age 'cold'
The day of monkey/man:???/ :p .....'Both'
lol what's next :confused:
Ther's alot to be explained. Are we habitating ourselves or is something habitating us. :confused:

The begginnig for mankind had to be bruital,Yall agree right. I mean women wher straight up property. Without the Belief of god (remember god represents all of good. Since it made us and all) women would still be property the poor would still be slaves the nazis would of owned the world etc etc"

The belief helps us not go apeshit over everything (The average citizen especially 'man' has much capacity for hate like you would't believe) and end our very own existence. Yet a belief brings us to a better life. :) You not need to believe in god because the person right next to ya probably does. It makes a great balance.

This thread is pretty cool. :) none offense takin

[KillaBuzz]

well i'll admit it, i only read the fdirst couple postz, but anywayz, the simple fact ov the matter iz that god dint write the bible, so i dunt c the point in followin it. itz anybodyz guess az 2 how thingz came 2 b. spiritual/religious ppl will prolly have faith in a religion or philosophy becuz they need sumthin 2 beleive in, an 2 sum who dunt even truly beelive in the history of the religion, it offerz a spiritual peice ov mind. im not a very spiriutal person az i choose not 2 belive in anythin fer certain until itz proven 2 me. i agree wit wut ghost wuz sayin , if there iz a god, y duznt he make himself clear 2 all ov us. i'll b on again later wit more say prolly hahah.
PeAcE

[juanskee]

Giant Blue Three Headed Penis Monster put all this here.. So why is my theory any less believable than yours?


LMAO!! Ghost. I just caught that. Stunning yet fascinating :p

[F L E S H]

The begginnig for mankind had to be bruital,Yall agree right. I mean women wher straight up property. Without the Belief of god (remember god represents all of good. Since it made us and all) women would still be property the poor would still be slaves the nazis would of owned the world etc etc"

Another History lesson courtesy of the F L E S H

Before the realitively new wave of monotheistic religions (i.e. Judaeism, Christianity, Islam), in Europe anyway, women were not property by any means. In fact, women were considered more sacred than men, given the simple fact they're the ones who give birth. Pagan religions often had women as priestesses, and sex was not an 'obscene' act, it was a sacred spiritual and physical act which creates life, it was something to be embraced and loved.

Sadly, the place of women gradually deteriorated for many many reasons, most of which are still not understood today. What is unsderstood, however, is that in the early part of the 4th century A.D. the Roman Emperor Constantine held the first ever Church Council in a city called Nicaea, near Constantinople. There, much of the Christian faith was discussed and made official, and Christianity pretty much became what it is today. Much of the dogma agreed upon there was for purely political reasons, since Constantine didn't really give a shit about religion, he just wanted to control his empire. There, the final nail in women's freedom's coffin was driven in, as it was decided that Original Sin is entirely Eve's fault, thus all womankind. Thus, women and everything associated with them was vilified, first and foremost sex.

Did you ever think WHY sex is seen as something dirty and to be ashamed of? Did you know that the Church considers any sex whatsoever, except for the sole purpose of procreation, sinful? Anyway, I don't know too much about this subject, but I know a bit. Just remember that 90% of organized religion today is more politics than faith, and that goes for ALL of them.

[GHoSToKeR]

F L E S H you should read the Da Vinci code

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=5919

:)

[Mrs PotatoHead]

Mrs Potato, think about this - why would God help your mom to save that woman from an accident, but do nothing to stop the World Trade Centers being destroyed, or stop all those children in that Russian school from being killed!?!? NOW do you still think it was an act of God?



I was just relating an experience my mum had (I love her and respect her and believe that her experience was really what god is for her). I have chosen to not "follow" a religion or a human ideal of what god is. I am willing to respect people and listen to people who share their experiences of spirituality (not text book preaching) because I find it not only interesting thing but beautiful.

A question for Torog :) . How is it that you can't understand people that smoke pot not believing in god? Your government (am i right in thinking you are an avid supporter of the Bush government) hates pot smokers and judges you in the name of your god? Shouldn't you be asking them why they don't believe in the miracle of god known as marijuana? Pot is obviuosly a large and important part of your life but you support this government :confused:

[RESiNATE]

I like this thread too, I am learning alot :)

GHoST:
You ask why 'God' would let the attrocities of 9/11 take place, but would 'guide' Ammie's mother to 'avert' an accident. Here's how I think it works.
What if our lives are nothing more than a means to discover answers for a 'higher intelligence'?
I wonder how cures for diseases have been discovered, because of one person's tradegy?
Is it Fate, or 'God's will', or something other?

I have heard many stories about people who have suffered a tradegy in their lives (ie, cot-death) and because of that trauma, they have dedicated the rest of their lives to finding out why this terrible thing happened, and are driven by a need to prevent that terrible thing from happening to someone else. I would be willing to bet that most of the people involved in 'exploratory medicine' and research, have suffered from that illness that they are trying to cure - whether directly, or indirectly.
Would it be fair to say, that maybe, their experience of such tradegy was 'thrust' upon them by something that we have no comprehension of (higher beings/God)? - or indeed, that those peoples lives have been moulded from the very start in order to satisfy their destiny? Natural born talent?

If we look at the great artists of our times, or the great philosophers, or prolific pioneers of medicine, etc...how is it that they are capable of doing things that exceed normal human ability? Especially if we adopt the theory that we are all born equal.
What sets those people apart?

I don't think I'm doing a good job at explaining myself here :D...my thoughts on this theory of mine, are still very disjointed.

I guess that what I'm trying to say is, shit happens - but, if we look further down the line, sometimes that shit is meant to happen for the greater good.

Of course, I cannot say that it is not an act of God (even though I don't believe in God in religious terms), anymore than I can say that it is not.

What if, the human race (collectively) is actually God?

"God created Man in the image of Himself"
Is He male, or female?...Is He androgonous?...Is He us?

I remain agnostic/atheist, until such time that I can be given absolute proof either way.
I'm not talking about inner feelings here (although I respect others beliefs and experiences)...I'm talking about absolute proof.

To think that we are sentient, is to be human - our intelligence will always cause us to ask the question "where do we come from?", or "what is our purpose?"
We must learn to enjoy and relish our gift of life, and look toward making our time here as pleasurable as possible - rather than worry so much about securing a place in the 'after-life'...
'Heaven' is right here, folks! - look around you, and you must admit that I am right - It's just us humans that make it 'Hell' to live here - Our greed and selfishness makes it so.

Just another opinion :)
Res...

[RESiNATE]

Look at evoulution for a second.
The day of the lizard:Dinasours...prehistoric 'hot'
The day of the mammals:Mammoths.Sabertooths...Ice Age 'cold'
The day of monkey/man:???/ :p .....'Both'
lol what's next :confused:
Ther's alot to be explained. Are we habitating ourselves or is something habitating us. :confused:


I think that I would be right in saying that evolution has never been proven (?)
Even Darwin, the one who proposed such a thing, presents his case as a theory...one that, in my opinion, is given far more credence than is due.
I seem to recall that someone has put forward the notion that evolution cannot be fact, due to the impossibility that a single-cell organism (that which we are supposed to have evolved from) can evolve - by definition alone.

What if we have been genetically modified throughout time by something else?
We already know that humankind has been capable of genetic modification since cave-man times - wheat, for instance, is a genetic modification, and was not a naturally growing plant.

If we look at the human time-line, we can see that our 'progression' is accelerating at a rapid pace. In the last 30yrs alone, we have advanced to a level that borders on the science-fiction.
There are those who believe (me being one of them) that we will soon arrive at a time where we become restricted by our own mortality, as we push the boundaries of technology beyond our human perception, and rely more and more upon the processing powers of our super-computers.

And it's happening now, isn't it?

Maybe, Mother Nature will prempt us, as we move closer and closer towards the next order.

:D..let's get deep:D

[F L E S H]

F L E S H you should read the Da Vinci code

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=5919

:)

lol, I did, but that's not where I learned this, but the Da Vinci Code confirmed it :)

BTW, if you liked that book, read also Angels and Demons, same author but IMHO somewhat better!

[Stoned Scouser]

I Don't Follow The Bible At All But I Believe In A Higher Power Tho... i dont know exactly why, i think its just because i dont like the thought of death being the end! I'v done a lot of research as regards physics into string theory, quantum physics etc, these studies can fuck with ur head something ruthless! The world on an atomic level becomes a mystery world of chance! In the words of albert einstein, " God Doesn't Play Dice!". So i believe even in the future, scientists will not be able to fully explain the universe. However, its not a question of science versus religion as many of the worlds leading physicists are religious ppl. Its a question of an individuals faith!
A lof of pplz arguement for th non-existance of god is look how fucked up the world is if god existed it wud b a nicer place. For instance ghost made mention of the terrible events of 9/11. Wot ppl need 2 remember is this life is a test to determine what happens in th next life... this is our chance to proove ourselves! This world was never ment to b perfect what so ever, as god wants to see how we cope in all kinds of situations, good or bad. I must say i dont think we are coping well in this world of 'an eye for an eye'... retaliation is just leading to more an more innocent deaths! Anyway thats enuf deep convo frm me time for a splif! This is a very interstin thread btw ppx keep it up!
:p

[RESiNATE]

Some believe that when we find the value of Pi, we shall know the answers to all our questions of Life, the Universe, and Everything...

...mathematics, my friends...mathematics ;)

[Stoned Scouser]

Av Had Enuf Of Fuckin Mathematics lol... its the most borin' A level subject ever... ... ... unless im stoned off me head in which case it gets interestin!

[RESiNATE]

So, I asked the net if God exists...here's what I found...a very interesting arguement that I thought I would share (http://www.godexistence.com/god.htm):

"Let me explain the problem science has with Jesus Christ."
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks one of his
new students to stand.
"You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"

"Yes, sir."

"So you believe in God?"

"Absolutely."

"Is God good?"

"Sure! God is good."

"Is God all powerful? Can God do anything?"

"Yes."

"Are you good or evil?"

"The Bible says I'm evil."

The professor grins knowingly. "Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a
moment, then he utters, "The BIBLE says many things that many of you Christians do not obey"

"Yes, Sir"

"Why then do you believe in someone that you do not obey"

-No answer.

"What purpose does it have to serve a law that you are not to keep"

"Well, I serve the law that the church has taught me"

"Then you are serving the Church not God"

-No answer.

"Here's another one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. If you can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?"

"Yes sir, I would."

"So you're good...!"

"I wouldn't say that."

"Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could.. .God doesn't."

-No answer.

"He doesn't does he? My brother was a Christian who died of cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is this Jesus good? Hmmm? Can you answer that one?"

-No answer.

The elderly man is sympathetic, "No, you can't, can you?"

He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?"

"Err...Yes."

"Is Satan good?"

"No."

"Where does Satan come from?"

The student falters. "From... God..."

"That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?"

The elderly man runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking student audience.
"I think we're going to have a good semester, ladies and gentlemen."
He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is there any evil in this world?"

"Yes, sir."

"Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God make everything?"

"Yes."

"Who created evil?"

(No answer)

"Is there sickness in this world? Ugliness, immorality, hatred? All the terrible things - do they exist in this world?"

The student squirms on his feet. "Yes."

"Who created them?"

(No answer.)

The professor suddenly shouts at his student.
"WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!"

The professor closes in for the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God created them, didn't he? Just like he created a Law that nobody keeps"

(No answer.)

The student tries to hold the steady, experienced gaze and fails.
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace the front of the classroom like an aging panther. The class is mesmerized.

"Tell me," he continues, "How is it that this God is good if He created all evil throughout all time?"

The professor swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world.
"All the hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and ugliness and suffering created by this good God is all over the world, isn't it, young man?"

(No answer.)

"Don't you see it all over the place? Huh?" Pause.
"Don't you?"

The professor leans into the student's face again and whispers, "Is God good?"

(No answer.)
"Do you believe in Jesus Christ, son?"

The student's voice betrays him and cracks.
"Yes, Professor, I do."

The old man shakes his head sadly.
"Science says you have five senses you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you seen Jesus?"

"No, sir, I've never seen Him."

"Then tell us, have you ever heard your Jesus?"

"No, sir, I have not."

"Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your Jesus...in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God whatsoever?"

(No answer.)

"Answer me, please."

"No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't."

"You're AFRAID you haven't?"

"No, sir."

"Yet you still believe in Him?"

"...yes..."

"That takes FAITH!"

The professor smiles sagely at the underling.
"According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol, science says your God does not exist. What do you say to that, son? Where is your God now?"

The student does not answer.

"Sit down, please."

The Christian sits.. .defeated.
Another student raises his hand.

"Professor, may I address the class?"

The professor turns and smiles.
"Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come, come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering."

The Christian looks around the room.

"Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?"

"Yes," the professor replies, "there's heat."

"Is there such a thing as cold?"

"Yes, son, there's cold too."

"No, sir, there isn't."

The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes very quiet.
The second Christian continues.

"You can have lots of heat, even more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat, or no heat, but we don't have anything called 'cold'.
We can hit 458 degrees below zero, which is no heat, but we can't go any further than that. There is no such thing as cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than negative 458 â?? you see, sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat.
We cannot measure cold.
Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir,it's just the absence of it."

Silence.

A pin drops somewhere in the classroom.
"Is there such a thing as darkness, professor?"

"That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't darkness? What are you getting at?"

"So you 'believe' in darkness?"

"Yes."

"I'm sorry, but science says you're wrong again, sir.
Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light constantly, you have nothing, and it's called darkness, isn't it?
That's the meaning we use to define the word.
In reality, darkness isn't.
If it were, you would be able to make darkness darker and give it to me in a jar. But you can't give me a jar of darker darkness, can you Professor?"

Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.
"This would indeed be a good semester, would you mind telling us what your point is, young man?"

"Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed to start with, and so your conclusion must be in error..."

The professor goes ballistic. "Flawed...? How dare you...?"

"Sir, may I explain what I mean?" The class is all ears.

"Explain... oh, explain."

The professor makes an admirable effort to regain control.
Suddenly he is affability itself.
He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student to continue.

"You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian explains, "that, for example, there is life and then there's death; a good God and a bad god, the Law of God and the law of the church.
You are viewing God as a concept, as something finite, something we can measure.
Sir, science cannot even explain a thought.
It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen, much less fully understood them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death cannot exist as a substantive thing.
Death is not the opposite of life, merely the absence of it."

The young man holds up a newspaper he takes from the desk of a neighbor, who has been reading it.
"Here is one of the most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, Professor. Is there such a thing as immorality?"

"Of course, there is, now look..."

"Again, I'm sorry sir, but you are wrong. You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality.
Is there such a thing as injustice?
No, injustice is the absence of justice.
Isn't the law of the church a man made version of the Law of God?
Is there such a thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?"

The professor's face has turned an alarming shade of red. He is so angry, he is temporarily speechless.
The Christian continues.

"If there is evil in the world, Professor, and we all agree there is then God, if He exists, must be accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is accomplishing?
The Bible tells us that it is to see if each one of us will, believe in the righteousness of His son (the result of the love of God), over evil (the result of independence or the absence of the love of God).
There is nothing greater than love.
God is love and God is good.
If He is good, then the ultimate act of his goodness would be to give man the opportunity to experience the greatest thing that exists -- love.
This everlasting love of His is expressed in his eternal Law and His willingness to give us the right to choose.
Some choose not to obey Him and inclusive change His Law and others may choose to go as far as to deny Him as is your case".

The professor bridles.
"As a philosophical scientist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of God or His Law or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation because God is not observable."

"I would have thought that the absence of God's Law, which is His moral code, in this world is probably one of the most observable phenomena going," the Christian replies, "Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week!
Tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

"Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir, or are you placing your 'faith' in the unobservable?"

The professor makes a sucking noise with his teeth and gives the student a silent, stony stare.

The student replies: "May I follow up on the point you were making earlier to the other student?"

The professor wisely keeps silent.

"I believe you have a great mind Professor, but with all respect let me ask the class a question regarding it. Is there anyone here who has ever heard the professor's mind... felt the professor's mind, touched or smelt the professor's mind?"

The class remains silent.

"No one appears to have done so. No one here has had any sensory perception of the professor's mind whatsoever. While I would not dare to imply it myself, but wouldn't the limitations of what you 'believe in' (the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable, protocol, science) say that you have no mind?
Wouldn't the same apply to your emotions and your will?
I believe your great mind is hidden within your brain although I cannot observe it within the small box, or within the limited parameters which you want to place God within.
If I want to know your mind or better yet the real you (your mind, emotions, will and even your spirit), all I have to do, if you are willing to be known, is be willing to seek to know you and to spend time with you, at least to read about you.
You can know that God exists, .......if you are willing. ......
Are you willing Professor?"

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

Silence

The bell rings.

"Class dismissed," replies the professor. "Time is up!"

---------------------------------------------------------------------
lmaoo...a good debate, don't you think?

Whilst both sides of this arguement are valid, it still boils down to one single thing:
One person's faith (belief) versus another person's denial.
I remain someone that is sceptical until conclusively proven otherwise...and if I'm totally honest - I crave the proof, which ever arguement it favours!
:)

Res...

[Stoned Scouser]

lol very gud res! av read a lot of ur posts since i joined th other day... u'v got a deep mind n a huge vocabulary lol... keep it up i think im learnin a lot on here yano

[RESiNATE]

lol...I relish the compliment, Stoned Scouser, and am humbled by your kind words :D

Yep, I guess that we're all here to learn - the day that we stop asking questions, is the day that we lose our spirit and soul...and become less than we are meant to be.

I have been admonished for my quest for answers many times - I just ask them why I should stop lmaooo

[GHoSToKeR]

that was cool, Res...

anyway the way I see it is this; things happen

thats it. thats my view of history, society, thoughts, feelings, emotions, communications, relationships, good, evil - theyre just things happening..

why does there have to be a God for them to happen? why does it have to be more complicated?

[F L E S H]

Tell me, Professor, do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?"

"If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes, of course I do."

Good god Res, don't bring evoution into this, or I'll go crazy!
:D

[RESiNATE]

It has to be more complicated, GHoST, because us humans cannot accept that 'this is it'. We all seem to have this inate need to believe that our lives are somehow connected to a 'greater plan', or an 'unseen destiny'.
I doubt that there is anyone on this planet that doesn't think that we are subject to the machinations of some higher order - even the most devout agnostic.

I, myself, am someone who rejects all organised religion - I've explored most of the religions on this Earth, looking for something that catagorises my 'beliefs'; even Taoism and Buddism do not satisfy my quest, because they too seem to require that I must 'donate' or 'relinquish' part or all of my personal wealth, etc.
It is to that end that I reject organised religion, because at every turn, I see the hand of human greed at play.

I do not disrespect anybody's beliefs.
I do, however, often question why those people must be told how to follow their beliefs - often involving the parting of cash, or at the very least, a distain for anybody else that does not agree.

Personally, I find myself caught between a longing to believe in a higher power/order, and a resignation that 'this is it'.
I would, on the one hand, try to look at 'spiritual experiences' from a psychological view-point - then, entertain the idea that some 'divine influence' has caused those same experiences.

...I'll need to finish this train of thought later, as my kids keep interupting my thoughts...something about being hungry, or summat lol
I hope I made sense so far...:)
bless 'em, eh?

[opiuser]

That was a cool debate... myself i don't beleive in God persay, but i do beleive in something like it. I beleive that "god"is the energy of the universe,... such as that god is everything, and everything is god, because after all... matter is only energy condensed to a slow vibration. and therefore god is omnipresent; it is a fact that energy cannot dissipate.

About the stuff of how to use all of your brain, i beleive that we may only conciously use up to like 25%... and the rest of the brain is accessed by using keys... The keys are everywhere... Pot is one, Shrooms are another... and the most fascinating and spiritually important one i have found is Salvia Divinorum.

I do beleive in evolution,its otherwise known as adaptation. but i dont think that i descended from monkeys... i'd say that humans, apes, chimps and baboons and such are distant cousins all having evolved in different locations and conditions from the same mother creature.

Oh and i beleive in the big bang theory... and to help u guys understand how it is possible... i offer an explanation.
God, or the energy, was spread out in an infinite area... now, every single particle of energy produces an attraction to the others(gravity). so, the energy all condensed into one small space, causing it to amplify and morph into heat and basic energy particles, this is the very first star.. In this incredible heat, theparticles fuse into the first atom... hydrogen, and then this is heated causing it to change to its next form, helium... and then the process keeps going, creating many elements and causing a rapid expansion of the energy until it's core has nothing more to burn, its energy condensed too far. The core becomes incredibly dense and the star collapses on itself, causing a massive explosion(hyper nova) and throwing the elemental dust across space. then the dust condenses in different areas, creating more, smaller stars and even planets. constantly changing and expanding, these new stars will later explode and continue the chain reaction.

[RESiNATE]

Good god Res, don't bring evoution into this, or I'll go crazy!
:D
Do you not subscribe to the 'theory of evolution', FLESH? :D
Let's go crazy :D

All I'll say is this: It is so, because I say it is....
Well, that's what Darwin said, and everyone seems to accept him, why not me?
lol

[opiuser]

darwin was a dumbass in his theory, but i still think evolution is the only possible thing... oh fuck it... i dont care...

Like the bible says in genesis... thou shalt not eat of the fruit of knowledge... so just shut up, sit back, pack a big fat bong bowl and take it all for granted!

[RESiNATE]

The Big Bang.
Yes, a very plausible theory...but, where did the intitial substances come from?
lol...it's enough to make your head explode!
I think there are sciences that we have yet to discover, let alone comprehend

Evolution.
How can a single cell organism divide - surely it is impossible?
Darwin had some very good ideas and theorums - however, we can only accept those theories if we accept that there is a missing link...show me the missing link, then I shall subscribe to his theories.
Personally, I find it very hard to believe.

Religious text.
As far as I am aware, none of the religious text speak of the dinosaurs - of which we have irrefutable proof of existence. Why?
Are those religious texts inferring that 'God' was only present after the dinosaurs and the 'new order'?
And yet, according to those texts, there was nothing before 'God'. :confused:
In any arguement that one puts forward to a devout follower (whatever faith), the resounding retort would be "..because the (insert book here) says it is so."
But, the book was written by Man!
Who's to say that the experiences 'witnessed' by the ones who wrote those words, weren't tripping out on mushrooms?
I mean, we ourselves, have had experiences with certain mind-altering drugs (shrooms, ecstacy, etc), but we are of a different level of intelligence to those people of the past - what we know as psychoactive reaction, they might have perceived as a 'sign from God'.

Maybe, the Bible (etc) are accounts of things that happened - but due to their lack of understanding that we 'enjoy' today, their interpretation of such events may be somewhat misguided.
Think about how early Man viewed things that they didn't understand.
Imagine if you could travel back in time, and show people of a Biblical time your PC...how do you think they would view you?
Even further back..imagine showing a caveman your gas lighter...surely, you would be regarded as some kind of God?

Imagine that the first intelligent man on this planet, actually started this whole thing off. What if that same person, had been the one to discover fire.
Let's be brutal about it - do you really think that that person would have gone to his fellow tribesmen and annouced his discovery, without a thought to his own personal gain? Maybe, he discovered fire, then thought - hang on, I could make a really good scam out of this. He could trick his fellow cavemen into thinking that he was a powerful person, that deserved to be honoured and worshipped - "bring me food and fur, and I will create fire for you!" The other cavemen would undoubtably be in awe of such a person, and would be eager to please him. That caveman could also take his scam further, and suggest that if they continue to support him with food, fur, and the odd vestril virgin, that he could secure them a place in the 'other-world', where food and fur would be plentiful - after all, he can already create fire....
Let's think about the vocabulary of such beings....what might be the name of this 'powerful' caveman?...would 'God', not be far from plausible.....?

Just an idea...and one that I suspect will be shot down in flames...:D
But, come on...argue me wrong..I'll be the first in line to apologise and accept any religion, if I am given conclusive proof of the existence of God.

At the end of the day, I can't take it all for granted - much as I would love to, believe me - and so, I continue to ask questions...and will until the day I die.

Res...

[Imotep]

wow man ive hadf a quote malfunction.
single celled organisms divided because, as is ssaid in the greatest documentary on evolution, jurassic park, "nature will find a way"
lmao :cool:

[Stoned Scouser]

Evolution.
How can a single cell organism divide - surely it is impossible?
Darwin had some very good ideas and theorums - however, we can only accept those theories if we accept that there is a missing link...show me the missing link, then I shall subscribe to his theories.
Personally, I find it very hard to believe.


again nice vocabulary in ur article res, lol!

About the 'missing link'... did u see the programme about oliver the monkey/man? Really interestin but sad wot happened to him. U probably already know about him but heres a link (pardon th pun) 4 ya anyway http://robotics.stanford.edu/~oli/oliver.html... theres loadza stuff abar him on th net

[F L E S H]

Evolution.
How can a single cell organism divide - surely it is impossible?
Darwin had some very good ideas and theorums - however, we can only accept those theories if we accept that there is a missing link...show me the missing link, then I shall subscribe to his theories.
Personally, I find it very hard to believe.
Personally, I cannot, under any circumstance, understand how anyone can deny it.

Exerpts from National Geographic:

Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamilia with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as described by Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun and not vice-versa, offered by Compernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomimc theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observationand experiment, that knowledgeable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but an explanatory statement that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently but provisionally--taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severely conflicting data or some better explanation might come along.

[...]

Orchids, wondrously adapted for controlling their pollination by insects, intrigued Darwin. The parts of their strangely modified flowers, he saw, correspond to the flower parts on simpler plants, suggesting evolutionary change. One species that caught his eye was the Madagascar orchid Angraecum sesquipedale, with its 11-inch-long nectar receptacle. He predicted that somewhere in Madagascar, a place he never visited, must live a moth with a proboscis 11 inches long, adapted to harvest the orchid's nectar. Forty years later two entomologists revealed the Madagascan sphinx moth Xanthopan morganii praedicta, confirming Darwin's forecast. Such mutual adaptation--the moth to the flower, the flower to the moth--is called coevolution.

[...]

Nightmarish illnesses caused by microbes include both the infectious sort (AIDS, Ebola, SARS) that spread directly from person to person and the sort (malaria, West Nile Fever) delivered to us by biting insects or other intermediaries. The capacity for quick change among disease-causing microbes is what makes them so dangerous to large numbers of people and so difficult and expensive to treat. They leap from wildlife or domestice animals into humans, adapting to new circumstances as they go. Their inherent variability allows them to find new ways of evading and defeating human immune systems. By natural selection, they acquire resistance to drugs that should kill them. They evolve. There's no better or more immediate evidence supporting the Darwinian theory than this process of forced transformation among our inimical germs.

Whew, that was long, hope you read it all :D!!

[Torog]

HowdyY'all,

I was wondering,if one of y'all believers in Evolution,can tell me why is it-that Life has an imperative to survive and adapt ?

I believe that 'imperative' ..is Divine...what say you ?

Have a good one...Torog

[SHAGGY420]

SO READIN ALL THIS SHIT R MOST U PEOPLE ATHEIST OR DO U JUST CALL URSELF RELIGIUOSE AND GO TO CHURCH TO BE ON "GODS GOOD SIDE" IF HE REALLY DOES EXSIST?MABY I SHOULD MAKE A POLL

[The C]

Who says we imagine, mabe were just reactions to actions based off of genetic data.

I'm listening to Ace of base. I wish i had grown up in H.S when this music was about. You just cant compare 70's and 80's music, with nowadays.

Eminem - led zepplin, who wins?
Chad Cougar - Mc Jager. Who wins?
Tool - Pink floyd. Who wins, though tool does rock.
Alexis on fire - Iron maiden.

Common now.

The C

[The C]

Remember Jesus words. I am "he" therefore "i am." (not exact qupte but the meaning)



It's fucking nuts, thats what were learnirng about now in the science community, laws are based around our dimension and they are because they haveto be, and it has to be evergoing because we are the consequnce. <-- this is me speaking now.

We havto be for the 4th dimension to make sense, were just a code of rules for there to be more advanced rules, as there needs to be a 2d for there to be the basic concepts for there to be 3D, but a person in 2d cannot comprehend what is in 3d. But he can understand all the rules of his dimension. And our string of dimensions are just one of the endless options. <-- mix of what i think and what i've heard/read.
We are so there can be a 4th dimension, and it cant end, it is because it has to be, because if there wasnt then thier wouldnt be a purpose, and there cant be nothing, because nothing is a concept, and if theres one concpet why not 10? or a billion.. +1

If this makes any sense let me know.

Ramblings of a stoner.

The C

[Imotep]

HowdyY'all,

I was wondering,if one of y'all believers in Evolution,can tell me why is it-that Life has an imperative to survive and adapt ?

I believe that 'imperative' ..is Divine...what say you ?

Have a good one...Torog

because the innocence of 'the garden" is nature, where the carnage and death of survival of the fittest is the most perfect harmony. life rolls on, its in the stones, the fossils tell us it is so. simple animal behaviour observations tell us its so.
nature is divine. it is gods great act. forget heaven and all the bits and pices in the bible, for me-it was finsished on the sixth day. its all i need to hear. yes god, youre a goddam genius, as i marvel on your creation the world (and still why, why god why, did you allow man to go evil, not heard of pre emptive salvation???aye???)

the perfect church is the earth, the congregation the cycle of matter and if you like, souls.
nature is divine. nature is god. it his his purest form, his most complex form, his most beautiful form, his most useful form.
praise him lets have a smoke.

[Imotep]

why cant the big bang and evolution be part of gods creation? certainly evolution is a majestic thing. just because some guys 2000 years ago said "create" instead of "evolve" due to a wanting of scientific jargon and lack of a clue doesnt mean we should forever be bound to it?

what if jesus had walked past when someone was rabbitting on that the world was flat? would have made it a holy moment and therefore ultimate truth.

ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhh.

i need to be alone.
with a tree.

[F L E S H]

HowdyY'all,

I was wondering,if one of y'all believers in Evolution,can tell me why is it-that Life has an imperative to survive and adapt ?

I believe that 'imperative' ..is Divine...what say you ?

Have a good one...Torog

Every living organism has a survival instinct, that's one of the definitions of life itself. If any organism, even a single-cell being, does not have this instinct, we wouldn't be here today, nor would anything but rocks and volcanoes.

BTW, there's nothing in evolution theory that disproves God exists. The theory just states that God did not create all life as it is today some 3000-4000 years ago, but that life evolved over millions of years to reach a present state. The theory also does not dismiss that fact that if you have faith in God, you can always argue that he got the ball rolling, and that in itself is a beautiful concept if you ask me, and the ultimate expression of God's gift of free will. Agree or disagree? :D

[RESiNATE]

Nice post, FLESH - and, yes, I did read it all lol

I may have not explained my view-point well enough (despite Scouser's well-received compliment lol), which is a somewhat wild notion of what I believe.
-I did see the documentary about Oliver, and found it to be very bizarre and interesting-

Darwin was (IMO) absolutely correct with his evoution theory......except, I believe he was wrong in thinking that we evolved from apes. I'll explain this later.

Torog - the need to survive and adapt is an intrical part of every living things' basic instinct. The human brain is made up of 4 main areas - the smallest area (situated deep inside, near to the base of the brain) is called the 'Primary'. This houses our 'natural response instructions' (fight or flight, etc) - or our 'animal instincts', if you prefer. It is from there, that we get our 'imperatives'. I'll explain later.

In answer to C.
You make a very valid point, C - we are bound by the rules of our perception; laws of physics, for example. We in the 3rd dimension, can only hypothesise about the 4th dimension (and beyond), because we can only think in human terms - therefore, as soon as we start bending the rules, our findings become nothing more than conjecture and ideology. No need to explain this further (but may come back to it later ;) )

Imotep, you seem to think roughly along the same lines as I do, judging by your post.
I too, regard this Earth and all it's diverse inhabitants, both plant and animal, with a sense of awe. I feel it everytime I witness a beautiful sunset. I see it when I marvel at the interconnectivity and partnership that makes this planet work. I know it, when I consider the overall fragility of this self-sufficent rock, we call Earth. It truly is a magnificent creation.
You ask God "why did you allow man to go evil?" - there is a reason for this, I believe...and I'll explain it later lol

I was hoping that I could put my ideas in a txt.doc, but unfortunately I can't...so, that means I'm gonna clog the thread a bit...sorry :o

THE EXPLAINATION (woohoo :D )
*this may get a bit disjointed at times, sorry :o*
Firstly, we need to stop thinking in human terms. Forget about your immediate perception of this dimension, and the laws that govern it. In other words, the laws of physics only apply to us humans, but we are trying to address the existence of something (someone) that is beyond human. Try to look at humans and the Earth as someone would veiw something that they have made - quite simply, imagine that you were God.
Due to the results of 'natural selection', we can assume that humans are the subject matter, and that the Earth was made with a view to sustaining that life-form.

We'll ignore the presence of the universe for now, and accept that it is the required environment to create Earth in (so Earth becomes like a molecule within a saline solution in scale).

So, we've created Earth and it seems like, after many previous failed attempts, we have finally got it right - life begins to flourish.
However, after a while we discover that our chosen vessel for advancement (the ape), isn't evolving quite as well as we had thought. We decide to take a selection away from the environment, so that we can genetically modify them to accelerate their mutation, and reintroduce them once the modification had taken place.
This might go some way to explain the 'missing link' conundrum.
I mean, apes and monkeys of today, may well still be going through the original genetic programming that was meant for us. We can already see how monkeys learn like us, and reflect many of our tribal traits and 'humanistic qualities'. There is much evidence to suggest our relation to the ape, but for the ommision of a crucial element in the DNA structure - what if that missing element was that which was modified by the creator?
It might also explain why our evolution has been accelerating, both in a physical and mental sense.

The reason that it is hard for us to accept this idea, is due to our perception of reality and understanding of dimension. Yet there are some people who believe in God, who is surely of another dimension by definition alone.

If we are to believe that God created Man in the image of Himself, then we must stop referring to that 'image' as being visual; if it were so, then there would only be male (or female, of course lol). Therefore, we can assume that the 'image' is more to do with our base instincts, than our physical appearence.
We now enter into the philosophies of Yin and Yang - the battle of good vs evil, of which there can be no victor, because it would upset the very mechanism that drives nature and helps it to survive.
We all have the capacity to carry out terrible acts of evilness - some succumb to those primeval urges, and some do not. From every act of terror, to every natural disaster that has happened, or will happen, will come something equally as benefical. And with each lesson learned, we take another step towards our ultimate conclusion - thus evolving in mind and spirit.
This is why God 'allowed' Man "to go evil", Imotep, it is an (unfortunately) necessary part of our evolutionary process.

Torog believes that our 'imperatives' are divine - maybe he's not so far from the truth.
We are all subject to a genetic code - the instructions that build us into the thing that we are. That same code must contain the instructions that control our thought patterns.
That we are individual, cannot be denied (finger prints alone, prove it), however, we all have the same basic instincts; greed, selfishness, caring, compassion, etc. But the thing that seems to set us apart from every other living thing on this planet, is that 'survial of the fittest' applies to our own species as well.
In my opinion, religion has bastardised the belief in God, some people turned that belief into a money making power tool, to control the opinions of the masses toward their own political and egoistical gain.
That said, I do not blame those who follow religion - I just think that they are the victim of someone else's power trip.
I do not wish to offend, and would offer in my defense that I respect those peoples beliefs in God, but question the religious context that those beliefs reflect.
Just my honest opinion :)

I believe that there is a 'higher being', I would name that entity God, because that is the universally accepted name of such a thing. God exists in a dimension that we cannot yet comprehend, and we are subject to his quest.
To the question, "why are we here?", the answer could be as simple as, "what happens if?"
Or, even more simply - "yes, or no?"
We can apply this basic question to every aspect of our lives, and on every scale of importance; from "do I want a cup of tea?", to "shall I invent the atom bomb?"
Every single decision that we make, however small, has a repercussional effect upon the whole. It is the fundamentally basic law of physics that binds our very existence - action vs reaction. If we accpet that 'causality' exists, then we must now look at the whole, rather than the one.

What it the mission of the whole?

I wonder at the thing that we are meant to ultimately achieve.
Are we meant to achieve the ability to replicate ourselves - ie, cloning, or AI?
Are we meant to learn how to manipulte the environment of our own planet, or indeed, otherworlds?
Or is it just a case of producing the ultimate virus?

I hope I haven't offended any one, but these are my honest opinions. However, as with all theories and ideas, I remain open to proof of the contrary.

Life and let live, that's what I say. We're all in this together, like it or not, why don't we all strive to find a way to make this experience as uplifting and pleasurable as possible?
Just my thoughts :)

Res...

[GHoSToKeR]

Right on, Res

Although I disagree with some of your suggestions, I have to agree with your parting phrase - "Life and let live, that's what I say. We're all in this together, like it or not, why don't we all strive to find a way to make this experience as uplifting and pleasurable as possible?"

I'm an Atheist. Maybe, after some deep soul-searching, one day I might progress (or regress, even lol) to an Agnostic, but for now I don't believe there is a God for my own reasons.

But the point that I want to get across is this; It Doesn't Really Matter!!... Whether God exists or not, it won't really affect our lives.. It won't really make our decisions any easier to make, or our troubles any easier to overcome.. the idea that believing in God will some how manke your life simpler is an illusion, or maybe its a fantasy.. But believing in God[s] does cause tension and anomosity between family, friends, cities, countries... what's it all for? For something we can neevr prove? That seems like a stupid reason to hate your fellow man.. Maybe we should all just give up the quest for God and begin the search for Peace? Maybe then we can all start living together instead of just tolerating (barely) eachother?? It would make a change..

[Imotep]

these pretzels are makin me thirsty.

[F L E S H]

these pretzels are makin me thirsty.
LOL!!

[F L E S H]

great post Res, you're a good writer :D

I can't help but agree with most of what you've said, but I don't think we're here for a specific reason. I've pondered this question many times, "What's the fucking point?" and unfortunately I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer. This leads me to believe, rightly or wrongly, that there really isn't any point. I don't believe in destiny, but I believe each person has a certain potential they may or may not achieve. If there were some cosmic, greater reason for our existence, then Free Will goes in trash can, and I cannot accept that.

I envy people who have a great faith in whatever they choose, because they can comfort themselves in believing that there is a point, there is an ultimate goal. I can't see that, nor am I really able to believe in most religions. Is there a god? Maybe, if there is I think he just got the ball rolling and now he's sitting back and enjoying the show.

[clevemire]

these pretzels are makin me thirsty. LOL!

[opiuser]

The Big Bang.
Yes, a very plausible theory...but, where did the intitial substances come from?
lol...it's enough to make your head explode!
I think there are sciences that we have yet to discover, let alone comprehend

Res...
It is a scientifically proven tht energy can neither grow or die, but it does change shape... therefore it is, will always be, and has always been.

[RESiNATE]

I can't help but agree with most of what you've said, but I don't think we're here for a specific reason. I've pondered this question many times, "What's the fucking point?" and unfortunately I haven't come up with a satisfactory answer.
(This may be because you're (we are) thinking in human terms.
I ask myself that very question each and every day; from the moment that I wake up (and realise that I haven't died in my sleep:mad: ) to the moment that I close my eyes at night (hoping that it will be the last time:rolleyes: ). I cannot find the answer either, and often arrive at the same conclusion as you do :o


I don't believe in destiny, but I believe each person has a certain potential they may or may not achieve.
Interestingly, I feel the same, but had previously struggled to 'define' that feeling - you've just provided one...thanks:)


If there were some cosmic, greater reason for our existence, then Free Will goes in trash can, and I cannot accept that.
This is the part where our shared thinking may part company :) lol
I don't believe that we do have ultimate free-will.
Sure, we can choose what clothes we're going to wear, or whether we want to drink tea...but, outside of those very basic choices, what choice do we really have?
In the society that we are raised (in our case, the western world), certain aspirations and targets are required of us. From the moment that we are born, parameters regarding behaviour, acceptablity, and even our thought-processes, are imprinted on our general psyche.
To explain:
There are two couples of the extreme opposite to the other; ie, couple A might be conservative, affluent, and of high social standing - whereas, couple B are violent, loud, and in poverty.
They each bourne a child, but the children are swopped between the two couples, and are brought up by them.
Neither couple knows of the others' existence, and have no idea that their child is not their kin.
Would you not agree, that the child raised by couple A, would most likely have a very different outlook on life to the child raised by B - even though, genetically speaking, it should not be so?
If we assume that I am right, then we can already see how our indivuality is somewhat tainted - before we can even begin to discover who we are, we are being told who we are.
We, in the western world, are constantly bombarded with advertisements and propoganda; we are being told what to wear, what to eat, how to look, and how to think. If we aren't seen in the lastest fashion, or sporting the niftiest phone, we feel that we have failed in some way.
So, our choices become very limited indeed - do I quit this ridiculous 'dog-eat-dog' society and go live on a desert island, or do I stay here and 'do my best to keep up'?
When you really think about it (and I have done so on many an occasion), could you really do it? I mean, is solitude, with none of the technology that we have grown accustomed to, something that would make you happy?
I think not :(
We have no choice...

BUT!!!
Underneath all of this NLP, lurks something that noone can manipulate - it's deep inside, and is the very nature of our being.
Ladies and Gentlemen, please allow me to introduce to you....your HUMAN SPIRIT!!! :D
This is the only real place where you have control of 'choice'...it is the thing that will set us apart from each other, and contains our moral code.

A senario:
I'm walking down the road, one night, and happen across a badly beaten man, in need of immediate medical attention.
I recognise this man to be my former best mate...who had shagged my wife...and was responsible for years of mental anguish, and the eventual break-up of my marriage. I have fantasied at what I have wished to do to him, and I guarrantee you, I have got a vivid imagination and somewhat twisted sense of humour.
So, I apparently have a choice.
I can, either
A - stand there and chuckle as I watch him die, or
B - call an ambulance, and do the necessary motions of keeping the bastard alive...

Thank you for the compliment, F L E S H, I sometimes wonder if I try to 'over-explain' stuff :rolleyes: (see above, init lmaoo)


I envy people who have a great faith in whatever they choose, because they can comfort themselves in believing that there is a point, there is an ultimate goal.
I understand exactly what you mean :)

I like this thread, dudes...I think we're all keeping it nice and respectful, like.
Nothing wrong with a good debate, especially when there are such variations in ideas - all of which are valid.
Well, until conclusively proven otherwise, eh? ;);p

Res...

[F L E S H]

There are two couples of the extreme opposite to the other; ie, couple A might be conservative, affluent, and of high social standing - whereas, couple B are violent, loud, and in poverty.
They each bourne a child, but the children are swopped between the two couples, and are brought up by them.
Neither couple knows of the others' existence, and have no idea that their child is not their kin.
Would you not agree, that the child raised by couple A, would most likely have a very different outlook on life to the child raised by B - even though, genetically speaking, it should not be so?

They might have a different outlook on life, certainly, but their potential remains somewhat the same. Whether they achieve it or not depends on many things, among others how their parents brought them up.

I know some people who were born to rich affluent parents, yet they amounted to absolutely nothing, squandering all their inheritance and becoming bums after their parents die.

I also know some people who were born to poor, yet hard-working people. They grew up with lots of ambition, in part because they don't want their own children to have it as hard as they did. They work, sometimes 2 jobs, just to be able to go to University, and when they managto get their degree, their life changes and they become the affluent parents of the first example.

Potential achieved, potential wasted, it depends on you. There's part of that decision that is explained by the personality and the upbringing of the person, then there's choice. Ultimately, no matter what the circumstances, the choice is ours.

Keep it going, I'm discovering stuff about myself just writing this down :eek:

:D

[Ammie]

this is sum deep shit!! woah :eek:

who ever thought that stoners could be so ummmmmmm whats the word im lookin for :rolleyes:

[F L E S H]

deep?



:D

[GHoSToKeR]

stoned?

[RESiNATE]

They might have a different outlook on life, certainly, but their potential remains somewhat the same. Whether they achieve it or not depends on many things, among others how their parents brought them up.

Exactly my point.
And it demonstrates the difference between 'in-built' (genetic) potential and 'socio-schematic' (environment) potential. In other words, genetic ability vs the awareness of that ability.
The child raised by couple B, may quite possibly have the genetic ability (inherited from its parents of couple A), but may never recognise that potential because of the restrictions placed upon them by their socio-schematic ideals.
If the child had been raised by its natural parents, then we might assume that the genetic potential would have been nurtured and allowed to progress; it is expected of them.
Of course, as you pointed out in your examples, FLESH, that isn't always the case...which brings me, quite nicely, back to my point about our lack of ultimate choice.

In the Matrix (Reloaded), there was a discussion between Neo and the Counsellor, about the thing that sets us apart from machines. Neo suggested that we have choice, and therefore ultimate power and control over the machines. The Counsellor, however, pointed out that if we excersised that power, then the ramifications could be disasterous (ie, in the discussed case of shutting down the life-support mechanism). He showed that, whilst we 'think' we have choice, in fact, we do not.

We don't have ultimate choice.
However, we do (some of us) have the gift of 'independent thought'.


I also know some people who were born to poor, yet hard-working people. They grew up with lots of ambition, in part because they don't want their own children to have it as hard as they did. They work, sometimes 2 jobs, just to be able to go to University, and when they managto get their degree, their life changes and they become the affluent parents of the first example.
This is very true - and we can see examples of this in every walk of life.
The 'choice' to break free from the comfort zone that we find ourselves in, is one that we can all make. Some, like the ones that you describe, have the courage to persue their ambitions - others prefer to accept their position in life (no matter how unsatisfactory that existence is), because the mere thought of change scares the shit out of them.
Using your example, the child has gained independent thought, and can no longer accept the situation that they are in - believing that they 'deserve better than this'. In gaining their independent thought, they discover a potential within them and strive to acheive it.
They now have a choice; do I accept my situation, or do I change it?
It is probably the biggest choice that we have - but it still only pertains to the individual, and is relatively small, in comparison to the whole.

If we accept that independent thought allows us to change our lives, regardless of our socio-schematic situation and genetic potential, then we must now question where that ability comes from.
For example, I come from a background that doesn't subscribe to such things as religion and philosophy, and yet, here I am discussing those very subjects. There is obviously something deep inside me that causes me to question my existence, and the dimension in which I reside. Where has that come from?
Why can't I accept that 'this is it'?
Furthermore, why do I reject the answers placed before me (ie, religion), and yet entertain the idea of a 'divine influence'?
Is my psyche driven by a protocol which controls my deepest thought patterns, and if so, to what ends am I being steered towards?

If we look at Man's acheivements over the years, what is the fundamental question that has been responsible for those acheivements?

"What happens if...?"

And, who is asking the question?
Is it just our human curiousity?

Certainly, if we view life from our own perspective, then we can say that we are merely satisfiying our own humanistic appetite for knowledge - but we are just the inhabitants of one small planet within a universe that we cannot even begin to measure the size of...surely we can't be so ignorant that we think that we are the only intelligent beings around.
And given that ideology, we must also accept that ours is not the only dimension that exists.

Your thought so far?
:D
Res...

[F L E S H]

If we accept that independent thought allows us to change our lives, regardless of our socio-schematic situation and genetic potential, then we must now question where that ability comes from.
For example, I come from a background that doesn't subscribe to such things as religion and philosophy, and yet, here I am discussing those very subjects. There is obviously something deep inside me that causes me to question my existence, and the dimension in which I reside. Where has that come from?
Why can't I accept that 'this is it'?
Furthermore, why do I reject the answers placed before me (ie, religion), and yet entertain the idea of a 'divine influence'?
Is my psyche driven by a protocol which controls my deepest thought patterns, and if so, to what ends am I being steered towards?

Easy... because we're stoners.... :eek:

lol, just kidding :D

I think people usually require a spark to start to think about these things. Something like a traumatic event, death, illness, problems at home, etc. If everyone was just happy and everything's going good, people don't tend to concern themselves with 'the Meaning' or 'God' or other such things.

I had a disease this past year, and I'm not even sure it's completely gone yet. I think about death (maybe I'm overreacting a bit, but meh...) and what could happen, I think about what it all means, and 99.9% of the time I get so frustrated because there is no point. Why do I, an otherwise healthy 24-year-old, have to contract this disease? Why is my life in danger when I've done nothing to deserve something like this?

I don't know, and I guess that's why I like weed :D It helps to ease the anxiety, or stress, that comes about by thinking too much.

Heh, one thing's for sure, this discussion has evolved quite a bit, and just by typing out my thoughts, I learned a bit about myself, and what I couldn't figure out on my own, RES put into words for me. So cheers RES, and the others who wrote something down! Yay!

[koshea]

if god existed he would bring my friend back

[RESiNATE]

if god existed he would bring my friend back
I only just read your other post...I am so very sorry for what you are going through. My thoughts are with you, man, and if you need a wall to scream at, just post it up, dude...it's better out than in :(

I know that there is nothing that I can say to make your loss easier to bear, but would offer that sometimes things happen that defy logic and reason - we are, unfortunatley, left behind to deal with the aftermath of such events.
My philosophy on such things, is that they DO happen for a reason - even though we may never know what that reason is. And that, from every bad thing that happens, something good will eventually come from it.

Your friend's spirit will live on within your heart and soul, and everytime you remember him. Although this great tradegy has brought you much grief and guilt, you must accept that no matter how much you would wish it otherwise, there was nothing that you could have done to change it.
That you spent time being with him, and talking to him, shows how much you cared and loved him - and I am certain, beyond any doubt, that your being there helped his spirit to find peace.

The ones we love, never die,
It's just the vessel that has gone,
For in the hearts of those who care,
Their spirit lingers ever on.

Peace to you, Koshea :)

Res...

[RESiNATE]

Easy... because we're stoners.... :eek:

lol, just kidding :D
aha, not so fast with dismissing that reason lol
Weed, as with many other psychoactive drugs, opens our minds to wider thinking...we refer to them as 'keys'. They enable us to think on a broader scale, even when those thoughts laspes into the..ahem..bizarre, on occasion :D



I think people usually require a spark to start to think about these things. Something like a traumatic event, death, illness, problems at home, etc. If everyone was just happy and everything's going good, people don't tend to concern themselves with 'the Meaning' or 'God' or other such things.

This can be referred to as the 'comfy-slippers senario'.
We have no need to ponder such wider issues, because they do not apply to our current state of affairs.
It's only when our comfort zone is violated (ie, in the ways that you described), that we need to concern ourselves with the bigger picture.

I look at my own life, and wonder why I seem to be struggling constanly to find happiness - I am a (mostly) good person with good intentions, and yet, no matter how hard I try, I seem to always face adverse situations that prevent me from finding that elusive contentment.


I had a disease this past year, and I'm not even sure it's completely gone yet. I think about death (maybe I'm overreacting a bit, but meh...) and what could happen, I think about what it all means, and 99.9% of the time I get so frustrated because there is no point. Why do I, an otherwise healthy 24-year-old, have to contract this disease? Why is my life in danger when I've done nothing to deserve something like this?

And we are told that God helps those who help themselves, and that good intention shall be rewarded...then why do 'good people' often suffer the most?
Why are people, like the friend of our own Koshea, taken from us in their prime?


I don't know, and I guess that's why I like weed :D It helps to ease the anxiety, or stress, that comes about by thinking too much.

And maybe it helps us to continue questioning 'the reason', by allowing us to view it all a bit more objectively :), rather than just throw in the towel (a very tempting proposition, on the face of it)

When I found out about my wife's affair, I was faced with a choice (apparently lol).
I could have kept my discovery to myself, and carried on in the family unit for the sake of my children's well-being (which was at the forefront of my mind). Being of a broken marriage myself, the last thing that I wanted to do was 'inflict' that situation upon my own children.
But, with the aid of getting completely stoned, I was able to view the situation in a much more objective way, and in so doing, realised that there was no way that I could keep it to myself. I could foresee the aurguements and resentment that would arise at evry turn, and I quickly knew that the kids would ultimately suffer because of it.
I made the only decision that I really had to make - I left.
I didn't really have a choice after all, except in the way that I chose to leave.
Being stoned also enabled me to keep calm and resonable during this time of great upset.

Death is something that we all contemplate.
It is the last bit of our life-cycle, and the one that we know least about. It can invoke great fear in some people - the unknown is a very scary thing.
Some people use religion as an assurance that their 'place in the after-life' will be secured, as long as they follow the dictates of the 'word'.
Others just resign themselves to the fact that their bodies will eventually breakdown into dust, and that will be it - ie, there is no after-life.
I believe that my time here will affect the whole in some small way, and that when I die, my life-force will be a contributary factor in the continued evolution of human-kind - whether that effect is from my philosophy, or from some act that I have performed.

Maybe in the future, someone will think of me, and that thought will give them something that changes humankind for the better (not trying to be concieted here, just making a point :) ) - just as Darwin's thoughts and ideas, have contributed to this discussion today.
Which is why I say, in all seriousness, that sometimes things happen for a reason that we will never know the meaning of.


Heh, one thing's for sure, this discussion has evolved quite a bit, and just by typing out my thoughts, I learned a bit about myself, and what I couldn't figure out on my own ... Yay!
Ditto to that lmaooo

At the end of the day, it's all just ideas and theories - all of them open to discussion and debate - but, if we don't ask questions, then we cannot expect any answers.


Hey, Imotep...you got any pretzels left, dude!!! :D:D:D:D:D
:cool:

[Lovinhigh]

Has to do with personal responsibility. If GOD made you as such that you could only do certain things and NOT sin <there's that word again> then it's really not faith, and god made you like a puppet. FREE WILL is what underlies responsibility, not some deterministic element of GOD-control (for lack of a better thought) that makes you do certain things. If you are not a self-determined being then all things are permissable because technically nothing is your fault. Whatever. Thought I'd write this cause I'm bored. Love you.

[F L E S H]

Has to do with personal responsibility. If GOD made you as such that you could only do certain things and NOT sin <there's that word again> then it's really not faith, and god made you like a puppet. FREE WILL is what underlies responsibility, not some deterministic element of GOD-control (for lack of a better thought) that makes you do certain things. If you are not a self-determined being then all things are permissable because technically nothing is your fault. Whatever. Thought I'd write this cause I'm bored. Love you.
Though I agree with you, Christians will argue that indeed God gave us Free Will. And he also gave us a mechanism to ease our conscience if we fuck, i.e. confession. My problem with that is, why should I have to tell a priest my sins in order to get forgiveness from God? If I repent on my own, shouldn't that be enough for Mr. Omniscient? :D


I made the only decision that I really had to make - I left.
I didn't really have a choice after all, except in the way that I chose to leave.
Being stoned also enabled me to keep calm and resonable during this time of great upset.

First, sorry to hear about your wife...
Second, this is interesting. Did you really have a choice? I think so, just because you were able to consider other alternatives. I think just having the capacity to imagine other solutions is an essential of choice, or Free Will. After much thought, you made up your mind and were resolute--in hindsight you felt like you had no choice. But am I mistaken to assume that you did not immediately come to that conclusion? The choice was there, but you chose one and ran with it, for better or for worse.

[RESiNATE]

Ah ha, yes, F L E S H, you make a very valid point :)

I guess I always knew that I would leave (after all, that's what I promised her I would do), but was looking at the possiblity of being able to forsake my moral code, for the sake of the children. I suppose what I was really trying to do, was justify my actions by arguing the pros and cons with my conscience.
Hmmm...interesting counter-arguement :rolleyes:..lol..I will ponder this for a while :D

Thanks for your sympathy lol..although, if you knew my ex-wife, I doubt that you would blame me for leaving lol...she is/was/and always will be a queen bitch.
That said, it is sad when a relationship breaks down, no matter what the circumstances :o
Especially when there are kids involved :(

Back to the question of choice.
Yes, I pondered the alternatives, therefore giving me the choice - but, based upon my moral-code and understanding of myself, I only had one real choice. That I am able to speculate on the alternatives, doesn't necessarily provide me with choice - rather, the awareness of the consequences of making the other choice.
As in the example in Matrix Reloaded - they could have shut-down the life support mechanism, but the consequences of such an act, would mean that they would probably die soon. Therefore, they appear to have choice, but in reality, they do not.
Same as with my situation - I could have stayed, but I knew that the ramifications of doing such a thing, would ultimately result in more heart-ache for all concerned - better that I deal with the pain sooner, rather than later, plus saving the kids from being exposed to a 'hostile' relationship.

I used to say that there was always choice - but now that I look at the bigger picture, and consider my moral code, I realise that the ability to choose, is really quite limited.

hehehe..you almost had me there :eek:

Look at it this way.
Analyse your life - lifestlye, occupation, the people around you, everything.
What would you change about your life?
And, how would you change it?

Of the things that cause you sadness (for want of a better description), how much power do you possess to change those things?

I look at my life:
I hate the society in which I live (people and attitudes) - but I love some of the things that come with it (materialistic things - ie, internet, cars, PS2, dope, etc)
I hate having to go to work for people who only see me as a number on the payroll - but, I need the money to survive.
I hate having to be civil to my ex - but I must be, otherwise I risk 'damaging' the kids, or even lose the right to contact with them.
I would choose to stay at home, and play on the PS2, or spend all day on the internet, get stoned, or drive my car about the countryside...but, I can't do that, because of the restrictions of the societal protocol and my responsibilty to my children.

Of all the things that cause me angst, I am unable to change most of them.
So, I must float between worlds and make the best of a bad job - go to work and interact with society, whilst enjoying the things that make me happy.
The Yin-Yang philosophy.
The only choice I have is to swallow the bitter pill, and somehow be grateful for those small mercies that I do have :o

[RESiNATE]

(taken from http://www.vexen.co.uk/3/hf.html )

"An argument against Free Will can be constructed by considering causality. Causality is the way that all events are caused by previous events. Causality is most easily demonstrateable for stable, small systems where it is easy to manipulate things and measure things precisely. Causality also means that all the choices we made have been caused by other factors.

The activity of a persons brain can be monitored and (with carefully placed electrodes) controlled. In experiments on cats a small electrode can be placed on the red nucleus in the brain (a small part of the medulla) and when activated, the cat will immediately curl up and go to sleep.

In Human Beings most experiments have been on the Cerebral Hemispheres and Frontal Lobes, which are the memory and major character storage respectively. Stimulating parts of the Cerebral Hemispheres will immediately cause the person to recall certain memories (sometimes ones that they had forgotten), and operating on the Frontal Lobes radically changes people's emotions and behaviour.
Slowly removing a persons brain slowly takes away their consciousness, and even a brief study of various neuronal diseased can show how related the two are.
Cause and effect penetrate through our very consciousness and thought procedures. With quiet introspection and meditation you can reach the following realisation:

A living being never truly makes a choice. We only become aware of such things after we have made them.

When I want to make a choice, my consciousness picks up, observes, and passes information around via the Limbic System. I can't make choices before I know what the options are, but when I know what the options are my brain makes the choice for me. We are in this sense, observers of ourselves observing our realities."

This next part, kinda reinforces my arguemnet that we have very limited choices:
(taken from same)

"1. "Choices" exist, so behaviour can be influenced by justice and morals.
A person is free to act if they can choose between options. If this choice exists, they have freedom to choose. This is what freedom is. Once a person makes that choice, they will suffer the good, bad or neutral consequences of their choice. This is justice as it should be.
Law and society chooses to impose rules, so that when it's members choose certain actions they are punished, because they chose an option that was bad for the collective good.

Determinism does not change any of this. It means that the person is still free to choose between the choices that he had, but also that his choice is a result of a milliard of factors and processes, a result of natural events. We all know that such events affect the way we make choices, and no one thinks that this undermines our morals in any way.

"The preceding doctrines about necessity and freedom do not undermine morality, but rather are absolutely essential to its support. Everyone, even when they are moralizing, assumes that behavior is all caused, and that predictions about behavior can be made. The legal system uses rewards and punishments. These make sense only if they have a regular and uniform influence, to produce the desired results. That is, the legal system rests on the presumption that behavior is caused."
http://www.ptproject.ilstu.edu/pt/fwdthu.htm

Quote ends.

This fortifies my theory that we have no choice.
The author talks about the same restrictions placed upon us by many factors - belief systems, upbringing, and conscious awareness - as I do (but somewhat more eloquently lol).

As a side-line, this link (http://www.matrix-explained.com/php/viewtopic.php?p=10215) explains the conclusion of the Matrix - and also, rather intrestingly, points out the human 'obsession' with the notion of choice :D

hehehe..I really love this discussion - even if it has wandered slightly from the original mission lmaooo...but, I guess that we sometimes have to go about things in a long-winded way, so that we can explore our theories to the nth degree :D

Res...

[RESiNATE]

This goes someway to 'disprove' evolution, and also addresses the Big Bang theory in an understandable form.
I have yet to read it all, so will refrain from comment at this time - but the general gist (as I understand it) is that Natural Selection does not exist, and looks at how the human being has yet much to learn :)
http://www.humantruth.org/basebook.htm

I think I may be discovering more about myself and the world/universe in which I live, and am also realising that my ideas need much more research lol