The real Enemy

[Bong30]

Ok ill turn it up a notch



Twenty-Year Plan: Islam Targets America
by Dr. Anis Shorrosh


When we immigrated from Jerusalem, Jordan* in January, 1967, little did I imagine that Islam would become center-stage in world news. As my sincere interest in the growth of Islam in America intensified, I began to discuss, dialogue, and then debate Muslim leaders throughout the world from an Arab Christian's view of Islam. So far, I have had the privilege of participating in over 20 debates and discussions on every continent plus T.V. and radio. "Islam Revealed" was released in 1988 and is now in its 8th printing. The True Furqan is now in its third printing in the three years it has been published. It is the only book which challenges the Quran in substance, style, language and contents. "The True Furqan" can be located on http://www.answers-to-islam.net/ or http://www.islam-exposed.org/.

This is my analysis of the Islamic invasion of America, the agenda of Islamists and visible methods to take over America by the year 2020! Will Americans continue to sleep through this invasion as they did when we were attacked on 9/11?

1. Terminate America's freedom of speech by replacing it with hate crime bills state-wide and nation-wide.

2. Wage a war of words using black leaders like Louis Farrakhan, Rev. Jesse Jackson and other visible religious personalities to promote Islam as the original African-American's religion while Christianity is for the whites! Strange enough, no one tells the African-Americans that it was the Arab Muslims who captured them and sold them as slaves, neither the fact that in Arabic the word for black and slave is the same, "Abed."

3. Engage the American public in dialogues, discussions, debates in colleges, universities, public libraries, radio, TV, churches and mosques on the virtues of Islam. Proclaim how it is historically another religion like Judaism and Christianity with the same monotheistic faith.

4. Nominate Muslim sympathizers to political office for favorable legislation to Islam and support potential sympathizers by block voting.

5. Take control of as much of Hollywood, the press, TV, radio and the internet by buying the corporations or a controlling stock.

6. Yield to the fear of imminent shut-off of the lifeblood of America - the black gold. America's economy depends on oil, (1000 products are derived from oil), so does its personal and industrial transportation and manufacturing -41% comes from the Middle East.

7. Yell, "foul, out-of-context, personal interpretation, hate crime, Zionist, un- American, inaccurate interpretation of the Quran" anytime Islam is criticized or the Quran is analyzed in the public arena.

8. Encourage Muslims to penetrate the White House, specifically with Islamists who can articulate a marvelous and peaceful picture of Islam. Acquire government positions, get membership in local school boards. Train Muslims as medical doctors to dominate the medical field, research and pharmaceutical companies. Take over the computer industry. Establish Middle Eastern restaurants throughout the U.S. to connect planners of Islamization in a discreet way. Ever notice how numerous Muslim doctors in America are, when their countries need them more desperately than America?

9. Accelerate Islamic demographic growth via:

a. Massive immigration (100,000 annually since 1961)

b. No birth control whatsoever - every baby of Muslim parents is automatically a Muslim and cannot choose another religion later.

c. Muslim men must marry American women and Islamize them (10,000 annually). Then divorce them and remarry every five years - since one cannot have the Muslim legal permission to marry four at one time. This is a legal solution in America.

d. Convert angry, alienated black inmates and turn them into militants (so far 2000 released inmates have joined Al Qaida world-wide). Only a few have been captured in Afghanistan and on American soil. So far - sleeping cells!

10. Reading, writing, arithmetic and research through the American educational system, mosques and student centers (now 1500) should be sprinkled with dislike of Jews, evangelical Christians and democracy. There are 300 exclusively Muslim schools with loyalty to the Quran, not the U.S. Constitution.

11. Provide very sizeable monetary Muslim grants to colleges and universities in America to establish "Centers for Islamic studies" with Muslim directors to promote Islam in higher education institutions.

12. Let the entire world know through propaganda, speeches, seminars, local and national media that terrorists have hijacked Islam, not the truth, which is Islam hijacked the terrorists. Furthermore in January of 2002, Saudi Arabia's Embassy in Washington mailed 4500 packets of the Quran, videos, promoting Islam to America's high schools--free. They would never allow us to reciprocate.

13. Appeal to the historically compassionate and sensitive Americans for sympathy and tolerance towards the Muslims in America who are portrayed as mainly immigrants from oppressed countries.

14. Nullify America's sense of security by manipulating the intelligence community with misinformation. Periodically terrorize Americans of impending attacks on bridges, tunnels, water supplies, airports, apartment buildings and malls. (We have experienced this too often since 9-11.)

15. Form riots and demonstrations in the prison system demanding Islamic Sharia as the way of life, not American's justice system.

16. Open numerous charities throughout the U.S. but use the funds to support Islamic terrorism with American dollars.

17. Raise interest in Islam on America's campuses by insisting that freshman take at least one course on Islam. Be sure that the writer is a bonafide American, Christian, scholarly and able to cover up the violence in the Quran and express the peaceful, spiritual and religious aspect only.

18. Unify the numerous Muslim lobbies in Washington, mosques, Islamic student centers, educational organizations, magazines and papers by internet and an annual convention to coordinate plans, propagate the faith and engender news in the media of their visibility.

19. Send intimidating messages and messengers to the outspoken individuals who are critical of Islam and seek to eliminate them by hook or crook.

20. Applaud Muslims as loyal citizens of the US by spotlighting their voting record as the highest percentage of all minority and ethic groups in America.

* Jerusalem was held by Jordan from 1948 when it attacked Israel until 1967, when it again attacked Israel.

Dr. Anis Shorrosh, D.Min, D.Phil, and a member of Oxford Society of Scholars, has traveled in 76 countries. He is a Palestinian Arab Christian American, who is an author, lecturer and producer of TV documentaries. He is author of the best-seller "Islam Revealed" and his tenth book - "Islam: A Threat or a Challenge." - was published in the spring, 2003. You can contact him at PO Box 949, Fairhope, AL 36533, FAX 1-251-621-0507 or phone 1-251-680-7770 or on the net at http://www.focusing-on-islam.com/.

This article was published by Koenig's International News.




this is what we are up against you Idiots............ IE Left wing commie piece of shit idiots..............

[medicinal]

So how do I join up? It sounds too good to be true. We'll all join the muslim religion and this will bring world peace, as muslims are really misunderstood peaceful people trying to reach out to us, Hail allah! Hey the other reason, besides money and territory, that people go to war is religion! get it, the Christians and the Muslims have been fighting for centuries, do you not think a modern day religious war is emminent? Hey I'm 66 years young and have lived the best years of my life already, I'm not ready to die yet (no-one is) but if they come down my street trying to convert me, it's on!

[BlueCat]

That's funny that sounds kinda like those antisemitic propaganda days....remember I know you've seen the movies saying the jews will get into public office...the jews own hollywood...the jews own the newpapers the only difference is you are making it Islam. It is still hate spreading propaganda.

[Bong30]

That Is what they intend to do


Are they setting up all over the world?

Do they have a Jihad against Ifidels?

no names no bullshit, just 2 questions....ill never get an answer...but i try

What about there treating of WOMEN in Radical islam, at least 100 million strong?


question 3...never get an answer but ill try............



what about the teachingings in the Madrasasses that we are apes and pigs... #4

[BlueCat]

There are radical religions everywhere...I have been in an Apostolic church that refuse to let women cut their hair or show their elbows and they preach that anyone showing their elbows was going to hell....is that a reason to start a war with all the apolstolic churches?

It is not about religionthat is just a good way to get your attention and you fall for it. It is about land, water, oil and weapons and you can leave all the little ugly comments you want on my reputation Bong.

I really don't care. I have friends that are Muslim and I am not going to SAY nothing when someone like you is spreading rasict hatred..You really need to grow up. Read your posts, they all spread violence and hate...what a miserable person you must be...

So you think free speech means you can tell a religion what people can and can't wear? What if they want to wear the burka and the government says no? At what point do you let a civilization grow on their own?
We fought for the right to vote. We had to find our own way.

We had no business in Iraq. PERIOD. So tell me when do you stop letting a civilization grow on its own? When do you say it is time for this country to look like ours and slap up that McDonalds? How is that freedom?

[MastaChronic]

i loled at the whole thing.
shouldnt this be in the conspiracy forum?

[pisshead]

i loled at the whole thing.
shouldnt this be in the conspiracy forum?

it certainly fits...

[Bong30]

There are radical religions everywhere...I have been in an Apostolic church that refuse to let women cut their hair or show their elbows and they preach that anyone showing their elbows was going to hell....is that a reason to start a war with all the apolstolic churches?

when they say...you are not raped unless wintesed by 4 other men...when they want you to convert or die.....then we go in.

It is not about religionthat is just a good way to get your attention and you fall for it. It is about land, water, oil and weapons and you can leave all the little ugly comments you want on my reputation Bong.

fuck off bitch.....,,thats rude huh?....it is about religon... your to dumb to see it..... you hate for bush blinds you.....

I really don't care. I have friends that are Muslim and I am not going to SAY nothing when someone like you is spreading rasict hatred..You really need to grow up. Read your posts, they all spread violence and hate...what a miserable person you must be...

What a dumb socialist bitch you must be.......


How is radical muslim a race dumb ass?

So you think free speech means you can tell a religion what people can and can't wear? What if they want to wear the burka and the government says no? At what point do you let a civilization grow on their own?
We fought for the right to vote. We had to find our own way.


After Islam goes throug a reformation ill respect it....now I wouldnt wipe my ass with the koran

We had no business in Iraq. PERIOD. So tell me when do you stop letting a civilization grow on its own? When do you say it is time for this country to look like ours and slap up that McDonalds? How is that freedom?

How about the Iraqis that Vote...you think america you think Micky Ds i thinnk america i think VOTE


Tell me did we have bussiness in Iraq after he invaded Kuwait?

[Bong30]

That's funny that sounds kinda like those antisemitic propaganda days....remember I know you've seen the movies saying the jews will get into public office...the jews own hollywood...the jews own the newpapers the only difference is you are making it Islam. It is still hate spreading propaganda.

No its called the truth your to dumb to see it......

what size berka will you wear?

[Zimzum]

America's #1 enemy = Greed , Hatred, Corruption

[Bong30]

America # 1 enemy is stupidity.....


you people are too dumb to see that they want you Dead......or convert



greed is human nature.....and a deadly sin

Hatred......yes i hate people that want me dead.....

Corruption..... lets vote them out. or rip them out....

yours seam easy Zim....what about mine?

[Zimzum]

America # 1 enemy is stupidity.....


you people are too dumb to see that they want you Dead......or convert



greed is human nature.....and a deadly sin

Hatred......yes i hate people that want me dead.....

Corruption..... lets vote them out. or rip them out....

yours seam easy Zim....what about mine?

No, Stupidity is thinking we can end them hating us with military force. They have been shit on by the world and taken advantage of for there oil since ww2. If we show them some respect maybe they will give it in return.

[thcbongman]

No, Stupidity is thinking we can end them hating us with military force. They have been shit on by the world and taken advantage of for there oil since ww2. If we show them some respect maybe they will give it in return.

Read "The Place In Between" and get back to me.

[Bong30]

No, Stupidity is thinking we can end them hating us with military force. They have been shit on by the world and taken advantage of for there oil since ww2. If we show them some respect maybe they will give it in return.

WRONG....

you think rationaly....they dont.

They wont show us respect.......

what were we doing on 9-10? the blew up the cole we did nothing (under clinton)

they blew up the the berricks in beruit...we did nothing

they tried to level the towers we did nothing......


its time they show US some respect

Zim...get a back bone for once in your life.



Do you see how london is sliding into sharia Law....?

[Bong30]

Read "The Place In Between" and get back to me.

He wont read it Bongman...its not left wing propaganda....


How you doing Bongman?

[thcbongman]

I'm doing very well bong, healthier than ever!

Hows everything?

[Bong30]

That is great news BM.....

isnt it wierd how good you can feel.

I didnt even know how sick i was till i wasnt sick anymore.

[thcbongman]

Yup, I never thought I could feel this good again, but I'm alive and kickin' ass.

I came back from Indiana after seeing a specialist, and the great news is I have no teratomas! They'll take a wait and see approach and I might not need surgery after all.

[Bong30]

Great news Bongman....

Keep kicking ass......

[Fengzi]

No its called the truth your to dumb to see it......



I wonder how many Nazi's used these same words...well, in German of course.

[Fengzi]

No, Stupidity is thinking we can end them hating us with military force. They have been shit on by the world and taken advantage of for there oil since ww2. If we show them some respect maybe they will give it in return.

Good point Zim. Continuously bombing the shit out of the Muslims is not going to win us any friends. At least not over there. Anyone who thinks that the radical Muslim hatred of us has more to do with the fact that we(well, some of us) are Christians, and not due to our foriegn policy, is simply stupid. If that was the case then why just America, or countries that go along with us? There's a shitload of other, non-Muslim countries out there that aren't being targeted by terrorists.

The bottom line is that G. Dubya's moronic foreign policy will do far more to continue radical Muslim terrorism than it will do to stop it. You can not go out and kill a persons friends and family and then expect them to want to be your friend. It goes against human nature and basic common sense. The latter trait not possessed by our current "leader".

[Zimzum]

People like Bong wont be happy till the middle east looks like this.

[BlueCat]

I was not going to comment anymore because of all the name calling but I can't help myself....

Bong your argument for the number one problem in America being stupidity is a valid one. You make an excellent point. Keep up the good work. LMAO

[Bong30]

you are a great socialist keep it up.............

[Bong30]

People like Bong wont be happy till the middle east looks like this.

Ill be happy after they reform that dumb religon.....

[BlueCat]

Bong I am curious....what is it about socialism that frightens you?

[Bong30]

that it doesnt work

with out a profit motive people wont get off there asses and get out of bed.

look at health care.....if it was socialized all the good doc would be something else.

you need the market to make people the best you can be.....


Bc, I watched my MOM work 3 jobs for so many years it hurts me to think of it.....I f she didnt need social systems no one does.....


Its all about the profit MOTIVE.... motivation to be the best at what you do.

when the 3 year plan went to the 5 year plan and the 5 year plan went to 10 years in the soviet union...it was done

socialism just doesnt work....

[BlueCat]

Really and you think democracy works? Tell me why you support one over the other.

[Bong30]

I am living proof.....


I work for myself....... I dont need no goverment hand outs.....

you are mixing up the 2


Im talking Capitalism not Democracy.....

Democracy
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other uses, see Democracy (disambiguation).
Democracy (literally "rule by the people", from the Greek δημοκρατία-demokratia demos, "people," and kratos, "rule") is a form of government. Today, the term democracy is often used to refer to liberal democracy,[1] but there is no necessity that democracies are liberal (i.e. respectful of individual liberty and property) and in some cases may be illiberal democracies. There are many other varieties and the methods used to govern differ. While the term democracy is typically used in the context of a political state, the principles are also applicable to other bodies such as labor unions or civic organizations.

Capitalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Real-World Examples and Models

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Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately or corporately owned and operated for profit and in which distribution, production and pricing of goods and services are determined in a largely free market. It is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" or corporations to trade capital goods, labor and money (see finance and credit). The term also refers to several theories that developed in the context of the Industrial Revolution and the Cold War meant to explain, justify, or critique the private ownership of capital; to explain the operation of capitalistic markets; and to guide the application or elimination of government regulation of property and markets. (See economics, political economy, laissez-faire.)[



You are Mixing up the 2..... Democracy is how to rule the people, capitalism is how you get them out of bed.......

I believe in the works of people like......

Adam Smith
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For other persons named Adam Smith, see Adam Smith (disambiguation).
Western Philosophers
18th-century philosophy
(Modern Philosophy)

Adam Smith
Name: Adam Smith
Birth: June 5, 1723 (baptized) (Kirkcaldy, Fife, Scotland, Kingdom of Great Britain)
Death: July 17, 1790 (Edinburgh, Scotland, Kingdom of Great Britain)
School/tradition: Classical economics
Main interests: Political philosophy, ethics, economics
Notable ideas: Classical economics, modern free market, division of labour, invisible hand
Influences: Aristotle, Hobbes, Locke, Mandeville, Hutcheson, Hume, Montesquieu, Quesnay
Influenced: Malthus, Ricardo, Mill, Keynes, Marx, Engels, American Founding Fathers
Adam Smith, FRSE, (baptized and probably born June 5, 1723 O.S. (June 16 N.S.) – July 17, 1790) was a Scottish political economist and moral philosopher. His Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the Wealth of Nations was one of the earliest attempts to study the historical development of industry and commerce in Europe. That work helped to create the modern academic discipline of economics and provided one of the best-known intellectual rationales for free trade, capitalism, and libertarianism

Shortly before his death Smith had nearly all his manuscripts destroyed. In his last years he seemed to have been planning two major treatises, one on the theory and history of law and one on the sciences and arts. The posthumously published Essays on Philosophical Subjects (1795) probably contain parts of what would have been the latter treatise.

The Wealth of Nations was influential since it did so much to create the field of economics and develop it into an autonomous systematic discipline. In the Western world, it is arguably the most influential book on the subject ever published. When the book, which has become a classic manifesto against mercantilism (the theory that large reserves of bullion are essential for economic success), appeared in 1776, there was a strong sentiment for free trade in both Britain and America. This new feeling had been born out of the economic hardships and poverty caused by the American War of Independence. However, at the time of publication, not everybody was immediately convinced of the advantages of free trade: the British public and Parliament still clung to mercantilism for many years to come.

The Wealth of Nations also rejects the Physiocratic school's emphasis on the importance of land; instead, Smith believed labour was paramount, and that a division of labour would effect a great increase in production. One example he used was the making of pins. One worker could probably make only one pin per day. But if ten people divided up the eighteen steps required to make a pin, they could make a combined amount of 48,000 pins in one day. Nations was so successful, in fact, that it led to the abandonment of earlier economic schools, and later economists, such as Thomas Malthus and David Ricardo, focused on refining Smith's theory into what is now known as classical economics. Both Modern economics and, separately, Marxian economics owe significantly to classical economics. Malthus expanded Smith's ruminations on overpopulation, while Ricardo believed in the "iron law of wages" — that overpopulation would prevent wages from topping the subsistence level. Smith postulated an increase of wages with an increase in production, a view considered more accurate today.

One of the main points of The Wealth of Nations is that the free market, while appearing chaotic and unrestrained, is actually guided to produce the right amount and variety of goods by a so-called "invisible hand" (an image that Smith had previously employed in Theory of Moral Sentiments, but which has its original use in his essay, "The History of Astronomy"). If a product shortage occurs, for instance, its price rises, creating a profit margin that creates an incentive for others to enter production, eventually curing the shortage. If too many producers enter the market, the increased competition among manufacturers and increased supply would lower the price of the product to its production cost, the "natural price". Even as profits are zeroed out at the "natural price," there would be incentives to produce goods and services, as all costs of production, including compensation for the owner's labour, are also built into the price of the goods. If prices dip below a zero profit, producers would drop out of the market; if they were above a zero profit, producers would enter the market. Smith believed that while human motives are often selfish and greedy, the competition in the free market would tend to benefit society as a whole by keeping prices low, while still building in an incentive for a wide variety of goods and services. Nevertheless, he was wary of businessmen and argued against the formation of monopolies.
Smith vigorously attacked the antiquated government restrictions which he thought were hindering industrial expansion. In fact, he attacked most forms of government interference in the economic process, including tariffs, arguing that this creates inefficiency and high prices in the long run. This theory, now referred to as "laissez-faire", which means "let them do", influenced government legislation in later years, especially during the 19th century. (However this was not opposition to government. Smith advocated a Government that was active in sectors other than the economy: he advocated public education of poor adults; institutional systems that were not profitable for private industries; a judiciary; and a standing army.)

You show me ho socialism works...i mean doesnt work

This dumbass got strait As in College Econ.....

[BlueCat]

I know the difference..I did not ask you to post a wiki...I asked you what you think... why do you support one over the other. I am not talking about capitalism.

[Bong30]

that is what i think

you need a profit motive.....

Let look at health care... you socialist want healthcare for all....( under the goverment)

I think that leads to the doctors not wanting to be doctors cause they cant make any money......

Then the system just goes downhill from there.

look at Canada

this guys says it better than me.....



Canada's Healthcare System is Bad Medicine
by Glenn Woiceshyn (March 31, 2006)

The failure of Canada's experiment with socialist medicine is readily apparent: long waiting lists and wait times for specialized services, conveyor-belt treatment for routine services, chronic shortages of family doctors and hospital beds, gross inefficiencies, slow innovation, stifling and wasteful bureaucracies, warring “special-interest” groups, and the exodus of good doctors to greener, freer pastures.

It’s still illegal in Canada for private healthcare providers to compete with the government monopoly. Only North Korea and Cuba—two impoverished, brutal, communist dictatorships—still retain such restrictions. And there have been increasing accounts of Canadians suffering severe pain and even dying while waiting months or years for treatments that are readily available in countries that allow private healthcare.

So when the Canadian election was called several months ago, one might have thought that at least one political party was willing to promise, if elected, to de-monopolize healthcare to some extent at least. However, none of the five significant parties—not even Stephen Harper’s “right-wing” Conservative Party—would dare make such a promise. Why not? Because despite how impractical the Canadian healthcare system is, many Canadians regard it as moral. It’s a classic case of accepting a moral code that clashes with reality and harms people.

The moral code underlying Canada’s healthcare system can be inferred from how it is practiced. Everyone has free and equal access to healthcare providers (which naturally generates a lot of demand). Providers bill the government for services rendered. Government pays providers with the money it extorts via highly progressive taxation. Government has the power to restrict healthcare spending (which logically leads to long waiting lists and wait times).

The basic moral principle is egalitarianism—the belief that everyone must be given equal rewards regardless of performance or behavior. Everyone gets equal access to healthcare regardless of what they pay in taxes. And what one pays is independent of how much one uses the system. Egalitarianism is a species of altruism—the moral code which advocates self-sacrifice to others. (The opposite code is rational self-interest or rational egoism whereby each individual pursues their own well being and happiness—neither sacrificing oneself to others nor others to oneself—and social interaction is voluntary, not coerced.)

For healthcare consumers, the egalitarian message is obvious. Don't bother working hard to achieve success for you will only be condemned as "the haves," taxed of your "excess," prevented from securing better healthcare, and told to go to the back of the line. Don’t bother being responsible regarding your health because it won’t affect what you pay in taxes or what services you get “for free.” Imagine the impact on a hard-working teenager if his parents seized his earnings from a part-time job and distributed it—in the name of equality—among his ambitionless siblings.

As for health-care providers, the egalitarian message is also obvious. Study hard for years; work long and grueling hours; develop life-saving skills, but government will dictate your employer and compensation. The public demands high-quality services regardless of the extent to which your freedom and interests are being sacrificed to the "public good"—to hell with individual rights.
Form this one can extract the egalitarian notion of justice: Punish those who are creative, productive and responsible in order to reward those who (for whatever reason) are not. But if justice is the policy of granting to each person what he or she deserves, then egalitarianism is unjust. The champions of egalitarianism seem oblivious to what makes wealth and medical technology possible. They want us to believe that they can punish and enslave achievers and still have piles of money to seize and distribute—that high-quality services and technological advances are possible in a society where those who are ambitious and productive are sacrificed in the name of helping those who are not.

Given this moral code of egalitarianism, it’s not surprising that Canada’s healthcare system is so impractical.

Now consider today's wonderful trend of being offered higher quality computer products and services at ever lower prices, and what would happen if governments seized control and established a government-controlled monopoly offering free computing to all. What would happen to the computer innovators, product/service quality, real costs and government debt? Pretty much what has happened with the Canadian healthcare system.

Why is it immoral to personally benefit from one's own success? Surely, someone's computer innovation or breakthrough medical discovery is not stolen from those who didn't innovate. The aspirations and abilities of people vary immensely, and they expect to be, and should be, rewarded accordingly for their efforts and achievements. An opposite policy—an egalitarian policy—destroys the motivation to innovate and succeed.

Or consider socialist medicine from a somewhat different angle. When government has the power to extort money from people to pay for government services such as healthcare, the providers become directly responsible to bureaucrats, politicians and “special-interest” groups—not to patients. When the patient retains the power to financially reward providers for good service, providers will compete for the money by offering better quality at lower prices, which is what we get in the relatively unregulated computer industry.

There is no rational argument in favor of socialist medicine. It persists in Canada primarily because the majority of Canadians have accepted an irrational and impractical moral code—egalitarianism—which remains virtually unchallenged. Only when this moral code is widely challenged and debunked, will Canadians experience a significant improvement in healthcare. Americans should be wary when politicians such as Hillary Clinton and Ted Kennedy try to glorify the Canadian healthcare system.




we could debate how dumb the minimum wage is? same stuff

[BlueCat]

I am not going to get into a cut and paste battle with you...it does no good....I can tell you what I know...

Our system of healthcare is failing. Almost half of this country is without any health care. There have been so many cuts to social programs in this country that many people that were covered by state programs had to be dropped and many children were dropped from headstart programs..

When the mental health people are drop from programs where do you think they go? I will tell you THE STREETS...

Don't talk about jobs either..because the people that have jobs and health insurance pay half their checks to be insured. When you have to decide DO I FEED MY FAMILY OR DO I INSURE THEM then the system is failing..

So the poor go to ERs then the hospital over bills them...they pay MORE for services than the insured people do so the hospital can then overbill the state...

In the mean time hospital executives were the five most highly paid CEOs in the non-profit world....those capitalist you beam about are bleeding the country dry...

[BlueCat]

I have a friend that lives in Vancouver..he had stomach cancer...it was going to take forever for him to get surgery so he went to Costa Rica...

It cost 400 a year for a guest to have insurance in Costa Rica. If you are a resident it is free. He paid the 400 bucks months before when he was vacationing there with his family.

He flew back there to see about getting his stomach surgery and kemo.
He got his surgery in a first rate hospital. They provided a bed for his wife and daughter plus they fed the entire family for the 2 weeks he was in the hospital getting treatment. When he got ready to leave he asked what he owed and they said NOTHING NADA it was covered. Lets see you get that kind of treatment in this country...

I have 3 doctor friends that have moved to CR. They took a huge cut in pay but you know when you get older or you grow up I have not decided which it is...you realize money is not the answer...

Social medicine works in some places...when my son was snowboarding in the French Alps he took a bad fall...the first thing they did was bring him a huge glass of beer...which was funny cause he does not drink but he did that night. LOL then they took him to the hospital and he had surgery on his arm and shoulder. He never paid a dime and the treatment was wonderful....

Have you been to any of the countries where social medicine is working or are you just repeating what someone said on fox news?

[Bong30]

Blue Cat i do make those decisions....about insurance, and food for my kids.

It is a balance between free market and goverment help in health care....imo

I never had insurance growing up..... my mom took me to the same doctor that delivered me.... forevever. Help would not charge her some times some times he would. He Just died of Brain Cancer... I was sad. He was the only doctor that could crack my back...LOL
I didnt say the system doest need help It does....it will be a mix of the 2. (D) govenor Bill ritter Co. just added us the the multi state perscription drug plan...That is great. I like to see the big box stores (ie) walmart sell for cheap also.... a balance.

BC, I cut and paste cause there many other people that have way better skills at putting ideas to paper (screen) than myself. I let them do the talking for me. I have never been able to get the ideas in my head down on paper good. The Ideas just get all mixed up. I dont have to tell you im sure, so I cut and Paste. I was going to be an engineer once upon a life..... Drafting, arcitecture, Chemistry, economics, Bussiness.....all make sense to me. English... I cant figure it out......LOL

BlueCat... I have been a factory sales Rep for snowboard companys for the last 5 years.... I was a Buyer for a huge store here in Denver before that. I have been all over the world riding, and the stories I could tell ya....well.

Now that i know you ride there might be hope for you yet........LOL

steamboat is going off right now.......

I have been drinking too much sake....

[BlueCat]

I have been all over the world riding, and the stories I could tell ya....
well I am listening....Bong *tap tap* Microphones on :)

I don't care what your writing skills are..I don't type like I write, I type like I talk...I assume most people do the same.

I care what YOU think...that is why I made the cut and paste statement...I have read what you are posting... I want to know what YOU are getting from this info you're processing. How you come up with the statements you do...

You seem to have a very closed mind compared to others I have met that have been to countries other than their own...so I asked you to tell me why you feel the way you do so that I can understand..

I just don't understand why someone that actually works their ass off at a real job would be so against socialism. It is not the monster you think it is....and socialism always happens when the divide between the rich and poor is too great. It actually brings the balance back to the people..whether it actually happens or not.

There is no balance between the free market and government and I don't see any in the near future..

They are not fixing the medical problems in this country and their are no freebie doctors these days..The drug programs are a joke. Do some research on the top 5 drug companies in this country and also look at who owns the most stock in them. Better yet look at the lawsuits against them.

Walmart sells cheap Chinese stuff.... when we lived in Rogers Arkansas we hung a Chinese flag from the roof of their head quarters...They are a joke! They came into being promising to ONLY SELL AMERICAN and to treat their employees right. They have failed at both.

In fact those "Only American" signs hung across the doorways in their stores even as they replaced all American made things with Chinese goods. It was protests from Americans that saw what was REALLY happening to this country that made them take down their lying signs....They destroyed all smaller home town stores by selling so cheap they could not compete...Walmart will seller UNDER market cost until they have put competition out of business. Once everyone is gone they raise the prices...Go look in walmart bread is no cheaper, Chicken no cheaper, milk no cheaper....go look! Sure you can buy a cheap chinese microwave but would you really mind paying a few dollars more for a microwave made in America by American workers? How patriotic are you really?

Our American work force is gone and you can thank your capitalist friends for that one. They sold us out to the highest bidder.

There is no balance in this country show it to me....

[HinduKush83]

you are a great socialist keep it up.............Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist. I don't even like visiting this section now because of fear and warmongers like you. You are obsessed with Islamic terrorism. You have this sudden fear that if you are walking down the street, anyone praying to Mecca or praising Allah is a potential terrorist and must be stopped at once because they could have a bomb. Do you carry a gun with you? I bet you do. I think it is people like you who create paranoia and pandemonium. Just because 9/11 happened, doesn't mean that every Muslim wants you killed.

The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel. Perhaps if the Americans stopped playing the world's police and being a mother to Israel, you might not have people flying planes into your building now would you. Think about it!

In Canada, we don't have to worry about that garbage because we mind our own business! I mean yea we have troops over in Afghanistan, but we certainly are not embarking on nation building enterprises which pisses them off even more! The radical Muslims, in which there are very few want you dead because you play the world's police and support Zionism. They don't hate you for your freedoms, or whatever is left after your President signed them away in the Patriot Act.

I bet you would even report Muslims who are minding their own business to your little Homeland Security building or whatever the heck you call it.

I think you have been watching too much Fox News pal :p

Why don't you come across the northern border and see what real freedom and tolerance is like! :) No more Bush to deal with and you don't have to worry about fighting in wars! Shoot me for being a liberal socialist!

[Bong30]

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist.

How is Islam a race? Duuhhhhhh

I don't even like visiting this section now because of fear and warmongers like you.

when you are losing the debate you call names like warmonger. ( i like fuckface myself)

You are obsessed with Islamic terrorism. You have this sudden fear that if you are walking down the street, anyone praying to Mecca or praising Allah is a potential terrorist and must be stopped at once because they could have a bomb.

I am obsessed with it cause they killed 3600 of my fellow ameicans.....


Hitler was misunderstood right?
Do you carry a gun with you? I bet you do. I think it is people like you who create paranoia and pandemonium. Just because 9/11 happened, doesn't mean that every Muslim wants you killed.

When ALL the moderates stand up aginst the radicals, and reform the religon...MY job will be done


The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel.

Listen motherfucker....NEVER FORGET.... i will never forget the hollocaust.. you might i wont.

Perhaps if the Americans stopped playing the world's police and being a mother to Israel, you might not have people flying planes into your building now would you. Think about it!


Think about it you...........you would like it if Isreal was gone THATS IT.

In Canada, we don't have to worry about that garbage because we mind our own business! I mean yea we have troops over in Afghanistan, but we certainly are not embarking on nation building enterprises which pisses them off even more! The radical Muslims, in which there are very few

You are so stupid....if 10% are radical, what is 10% of a Billion, hint.... erase 1 zero


want you dead because you play the world's police and support Zionism. They don't hate you for your freedoms, or whatever is left after your President signed them away in the Patriot Act.


Listen Idiot thet hate us cause we are Infidels, they were killing us before Isreal, and BUSH

I bet you would even report Muslims who are minding their own business to your little Homeland Security building or whatever the heck you call it.

I dont see Muslims in my town....They mind there bussiness i mind mine they want to go at it.....ill be there huckleberry

I think you have been watching too much Fox News pal :p

I dont watch fox news Idiot......
Why don't you come across the northern border and see what real freedom and tolerance is like! :)

why dont you stay in Canada and hate America from afar....

No more Bush to deal with

what happens in 08 dumbass

and you don't have to worry about fighting in wars!

you are so dumb...war is what humans do.

Shoot me for being a liberal socialist!

OK, you asked for it



hey dumbass what size berka will your Mom wear.....


June 13, 2006
Muslims Challenge Canada Detention Policy
Courtroom Jihad Update from AP, with thanks to Stephen:

OTTAWA - Three Muslim men are challenging Canada's policy toward foreign-born terror suspects in the country's highest court, arguing that detaining them for years if they refuse to return to their homelands violates Canada's constitution.
Mohamed Harkat, Adil Charkaoui and Hassan Almrei are accused by the Canadian intelligence service of having ties to Osama bin Laden's al-Qaida network. They say they are innocent and have spent years in detention as the government their cases.

The alternative, the government says, is for them to return to their countries respectively Algeria, Morocco and Syria. But the men say that is not a realistic option as they would face torture.

They also challenge the conditions of their detention and the government's refusal to disclose evidence against them. The Supreme Court was expected to hear their arguments beginning Tuesday.

The system "violates fundamental justice," said Paul Copeland, a lawyer for Harkat. "These cases will help determine whether Canada follows the lawless American approach on national security or creates a uniquely Canadian path in conformity with the principles of international justice."

Two other detainees, Mohammad Mahjoub and Mahmoud Jaballah, aren't part of the current challenge but their fates likely rest on the outcome. Both are Egyptian.

Charkaoui, 32, was released on $42,000 bail last year after 21 months in detention on allegations he is a sleeper agent for al-Qaida. He denies the connection but fears he will be tortured if he is deported to his native Morocco.

"I am heading to the Supreme Court with optimism," Charkaoui said in a statement. "Despite the difficulty, we have succeeded in bringing this issue to the fore and gaining an impressive level of support, both in Canada and internationally."



you guys have your problems too....


so get off your high horse.............

[BlueCat]

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist. I don't even like visiting this section now because of fear and warmongers like you. You are obsessed with Islamic terrorism. You have this sudden fear that if you are walking down the street, anyone praying to Mecca or praising Allah is a potential terrorist and must be stopped at once because they could have a bomb. Do you carry a gun with you? I bet you do. I think it is people like you who create paranoia and pandemonium. Just because 9/11 happened, doesn't mean that every Muslim wants you killed.

The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel. Perhaps if the Americans stopped playing the world's police and being a mother to Israel, you might not have people flying planes into your building now would you. Think about it!

In Canada, we don't have to worry about that garbage because we mind our own business! I mean yea we have troops over in Afghanistan, but we certainly are not embarking on nation building enterprises which pisses them off even more! The radical Muslims, in which there are very few want you dead because you play the world's police and support Zionism. They don't hate you for your freedoms, or whatever is left after your President signed them away in the Patriot Act.

I bet you would even report Muslims who are minding their own business to your little Homeland Security building or whatever the heck you call it.

I think you have been watching too much Fox News pal :p

Why don't you come across the northern border and see what real freedom and tolerance is like! :) No more Bush to deal with and you don't have to worry about fighting in wars! Shoot me for being a liberal socialist!

It is really sad because SOMETIMES he has nice things to contribute but they are lost in the hatred and racist remarks like the burka one above. A person loses all credibility when they talk like that...

As for Canada I love your country. I have been to BC, Toronto, Quebec and Montréal. They were all breath taking experiences for me...

I am afraid your government is falling into the same capitalist expansionism as ours...In my opinion you lost control when Chrétien stepped down. :(

I really liked him...Now your government lets the US cross into its country and do whatever it wants. Why is the DEA allowed in to your country? How can they let Canadian citizens be taken out of their own country? What about Marc Emeryâ??s arrest? I read where a damn Texas state trooper was allowed to make an arrest in BC!

Oh and don't be fooled.. Canadian soldiers were sent to Iraq for the same reason British soldiers were sent. Both governments want their piece of the pie.

I loved your post though I usually agree with what you have to say and I hope you will continue to post in the political forum. We need your vioce here.

[daima]

you are a great socialist keep it up.............

just a little advice..
if you;re going to call another person, dumb, then its probably wise to spell right.

it shouldnt be, your dumb.
it should be you're dumb

socialism isnt a bad thing.

it seems more sane that capitalism, which by the way is a pipe dream for most americans.
Most americans wont ever own a home
Those we send to die to protect the wealthy in this country will never be able to afford a home, with the excpetion of a handful of officers.

Did you know that Cuba has about a 95% literacy rate?
virtually no homeless.
They send more doctors to disasters in the world than any other country on earth.

Hugo Chavez, Venezuela? he is a socialist who is now sending heating oil, for free, to americas poorest this winter to provide them heating oil.
Whats the bush family doing? giving huge tax breaks to americas oil companies who do not give oil to our poor.
anyhoot
wise up.

dai*ma:stoned:

[Psycho4Bud]

Bong, I have looked over some of your comments and I have concluded that they are quite disturbing and racist.

The reason why those terrorists flew planes into your buildings is because of your country's domestic policy and unending support for Israel.


Ummmmmm, pot calling kettle black? If you can't take the uppercuts.....don't throw the jabs.

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

[BlueCat]

OK I honestly just don't feel like wasting my time with most of those responses but this one...Reform the religion YOUR JOB? you are out of your fucking mind.

What the hell makes you think YOU or ANY government has the right to "reform" any ones religion? That is no better than the Nazi fascists they wanted to "reform" the Jews and you are on your way to equaling their disgusting feat of REFORM.

You have no idea what our consitution says or what our soldiers fought and died for..You are a terribly misguided soul.

[Bong30]

The Muslims need to reform there dumb religon not us......


start with how they treat women?


I say "what size berka will your MOM wear" to bring it home.... works good too

I will fight to my death before some Muslim tells my MOM to cover her face.

when you picture you Mom being beat by the Taliban...kinda pisses me off.


Daima its called and type O and I dont care, feel free to spell check all you want.....its fine by me.

spell check it and repost it.....ill give you 1 nug per 10000000 posts for doing it... get cracking.

Once again

i would rather be my kind of smart than (most libs) kind of stupid.

[Bong30]

Chavez is a piece of shit.....

wife beating pice of shit on the bottom of my shoe....

this is an anti chavez rally...... what do they know that you dont, socialist.

VVVVVVVVVVV

[Krogith]

The Muslims need to reform there dumb religon not us......


start with how they treat women?


I say "what size berka will your MOM wear" to bring it home.... works good too

I will fight to my death before some Muslim tells my MOM to cover her face.

when you picture you Mom being beat by the Taliban...kinda pisses me off. So all musliems are Taliban now? They are extreamists Like you. All Muslims women are not Forced to ware berkas THEY CHOOSE TO. Why do you keep saying it's wrong?

Christians Are agenst Gays, some have Beaten Gays in the past. Why arn't you agenst all religion and not just muslims? You are picking and chooseing.

Any religion has there own ways that are going to disagree with another.

Daima its called and type O and I dont care, feel free to spell check all you want.....its fine by me.

spell check it and repost it.....ill give you 1 nug per 10000000 posts for doing it... get cracking.

Once again

i would rather be MY kind of smart than (most libs) kind of stupid. I agree only you are Your kind of Smart, Good thing it will die when you do

I honestly want you to wake up Bong I do. Please start Thinking about whats going on.

You have started with knowing big bisness in in the government. Think about what there doing there. There trying to make more Money. Greed bong is the Drive.

[Bong30]

Krogith.. in general

its not greed....that is a sin

its called Profit motive......

go look it up read some Adam Smith and get back to me when your not so ignorant on the subject

[Krogith]

Krogith.. in general

its not greed....that is a sin

its called Profit motive......

go look it up read some Adam Smith and get back to me when your not so ignorant on the subject

So Profit and Greed are not the same? And some how Profit is ok to control the government and makes Wars?

Profit is ok to guide politics? How is that Just or Right? Wow I Can't believe you said that.

Profit motive is ok to kill people.... WOW

[Bong30]

Capitalism is how you make money, in a democracy... you're so stupid

see daima ^^^^ you're ^^^^^

you are mixing the 2 up.... profit is good, greed is bad. If you cant see the diff your just DUMB.....

Capitalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This box: view • talk • edit
Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately or corporately owned and operated for profit and in which distribution, production and pricing of goods and services are determined in a largely free market. It is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" or corporations to trade capital goods, labor and money (see finance and credit). The term also refers to several theories that developed in the context of the Industrial Revolution and the Cold War meant to explain, justify, or critique the private ownership of capital; to explain the operation of capitalistic markets; and to guide the application or elimination of government regulation of property and markets



when profit turns to greed its bad..... i see the good in the system your hate for america makes you hate the system.....

[Krogith]

Capitalism is how you make money, in a democracy... you're so stupid

see daima ^^^^ you're ^^^^^

you are mixing the 2 up.... profit is good, greed is bad. If you cant see the diff your just DUMB.....

Capitalism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This box: view â?¢ talk â?¢ edit
Capitalism generally refers to an economic system in which the means of production are mostly privately or corporately owned and operated for profit and in which distribution, production and pricing of goods and services are determined in a largely free market. It is usually considered to involve the right of individuals and groups of individuals acting as "legal persons" or corporations to trade capital goods, labor and money (see finance and credit). The term also refers to several theories that developed in the context of the Industrial Revolution and the Cold War meant to explain, justify, or critique the private ownership of capital; to explain the operation of capitalistic markets; and to guide the application or elimination of government regulation of property and markets



when profit turns to greed its bad..... i see the good in the system your hate for america makes you hate the system.....

Thanks Bong Now I understand War makes Profit and so it's a good idea to Make more of it. Thank you for this Revelation HAHA (Pun intended)

[medicinal]

Smith believed that while human motives are often selfish and greedy, the competition in the free market would tend to benefit society as a whole by keeping prices low, while still building in an incentive for a wide variety of goods and services. Nevertheless, he was wary of businessmen and argued against the formation of monopolies. The last line is where we are today, monopolized! That is how capitalists work, they buy the competition and raise the price or lower the quality of the product. Look around, pick an industry, all the mom and pop stores are being mobbed by corps. (Wallmart). Capitalism is fine as long as the super rich don't get all the businesses and have everyone else work for them for shit wages. What has happened here in the last 20 years has about wiped the little guy off the map, Take farming for example; 95% of the farms are owned by 2% of the people, used to be the other way around! One could name thousands of businesses that have succumed to big business, all consolidating to make a huge conglomerate and remove the individual business owner from the field. Greed is ok if it is controlled, get too greedy and we whack your pee-pee!!

[Bong30]

Yes Med it is a balance...

we need the balance back.....

[BlueCat]

Krogith.. in general

its not greed....that is a sin

its called Profit motive......

go look it up read some Adam Smith and get back to me when your not so ignorant on the subject

HAHAHAHAHAHA you are like Kelso's evil twin. Why don't YOU tell us all about Adam Smith? We just hates being so ignorant. Please do us some enlightening big guy.

[Bong30]

I allready did, you must have forgot....

I know that you understand Adam Smith, but krogith Please.....

[BlueCat]

Lets talk about Adam Smith shall we :) Kitty is sharpening her nails...you may have bitten off a little more than you can chew...

What he did not see was, that his own system, was the product of a particular history; that what he regarded as the System of liberty, justice, and divine benevolence, would be moulded into a system of selfishness by the private interests and prejudices of particular orders of men Oh gee you missed that one huh...

Did you miss the part where Smith generalizes wealth entirely, says he was not interested in wealth, but from the phenomena of selfishness. He beleives men are naturally selfish he represents them as pursuing wealth for sordid objects, and for the personal pleasures.

Are all men really that shallow? I know quite a few that aren't..

My bet is that you have never even read "The Wealth Of Nations" you might want to give it a try and come back when you are less ignorant.

In it he speaks of the natural effort of every individual to better his own condition, and he had only the half of the nation in mind: He seems to have been perfectly content though it involves an inconsistency which is fatal to his whole theory with the existing restraints on the energies of women; and the only effort on the part of a woman to better her own condition which he has stated is "to become the mistress of a family."

Ok now whos you next imaginary hero...bring him on.

[Fengzi]

Smith believed that while human motives are often selfish and greedy, the competition in the free market would tend to benefit society as a whole by keeping prices low, while still building in an incentive for a wide variety of goods and services. Nevertheless, he was wary of businessmen and argued against the formation of monopolies. The last line is where we are today, monopolized! That is how capitalists work, they buy the competition and raise the price or lower the quality of the product. Look around, pick an industry, all the mom and pop stores are being mobbed by corps. (Wallmart). Capitalism is fine as long as the super rich don't get all the businesses and have everyone else work for them for shit wages. What has happened here in the last 20 years has about wiped the little guy off the map, Take farming for example; 95% of the farms are owned by 2% of the people, used to be the other way around! One could name thousands of businesses that have succumed to big business, all consolidating to make a huge conglomerate and remove the individual business owner from the field. Greed is ok if it is controlled, get too greedy and we whack your pee-pee!!

Blaming big corporations for society's problems is narrow minded and short sighted. While I have sympathy for the little guy and the mom-n-pop operations that have been put out of business, I have enough of an open mind to realize that, in the long run, this is not bad.

It is all about efficiency and economies of scale. Big corporations get that big, and can drive the little guy out of business, because they can. This may seem like an obvious statement but think about it. If what they were doing was so bad, they wouldn't succeed. In contrast, if what the little guy was doing was so good, they wouldn't be driven out of business.

Take the plight of the Mom-n-Pop bookstores for example. Companies like Amazon and Barnes have all but wiped them out. Sad, this is true, but why did it happen? Well, I can look back to when I used to go to the smaller independent bookstores myself. Maybe they'd have what I was looking for, many times not. What if I was looking for a certain subject but didn't know the book? Out of luck. With a company like Amazon I can search for a particular subject and have hundreds of choices, most in stock, and usually for a better price than at the local bookstore. Amazon and Barnes have succeeded where the little guys have failed because the former provides a service the latter can not.

To blame increasing prices on the big corporations is also incorrect. Increasing prices are driven by inflation and inflation is driven by more money being put into the economy. If these big corporations were so bad for the majority of Americans there would be less money in the economy and prices would fall. If the big corporations refused to lower their prices, their sales would drop and they, themselves, would go out of business. It's basic economic principle.

One big benefit of big corporations is that they drive innovation. Ever wonder how much $ is put into R&D for something like an iPOD, a Pentium, or even A Ford Taurus? Millions and Millions. Sure, HP might have been born in a little garage in Palo Alto, CA but it wasn't until they became a big corporation that they could actually start producing products that we use today. Beyond just R&D costs, what about production costs? The company I work for sells the equipment, that test the computer chips, that go into everything from the computer you're using now to toys in McD's happy meals. One of these test systems can cost a million+ $. Companies that make these chips will ften have 50 of these systems to keep up with demand. ow many Mom-N-Pop's do you know that could afford $50 million worth of test equipment. Let alone all the other equipment to get a chip from silicon to it's place on the motherboard.

From what I've seen, people who have problems with capitalism and big corporations are typically those for whom the system has not worked so well. But, is that the systems fault???? Take another look at the HP example, this company was literally born in someones garage. Isn't that the definition of the "little guy". So, is what people are saying that it's ok to be an unsuccessful "little guy" but wrong to succeed? Think about it.

[medicinal]

From what I've seen, people who have problems with capitalism and big corporations are typically those for whom the system has not worked so well. But, is that the systems fault???? Take another look at the HP example, this company was literally born in someones garage. Isn't that the definition of the "little guy". So, is what people are saying that it's ok to be an unsuccessful "little guy" but wrong to succeed? Think about it.
There are more people that capitalism has fucked over than have benefited from it by a long way, In this country, it's not as bad, but in some third world countries it's pathetic. The business owners are slavemasters!

[BlueCat]

Fengzi,
We usually agree on issues but I am afraid this time I can't agree with you at all and I think you are projecting when you call medicinal narrow minded. I know this is long and you probably won't read it all but I will post it anyway and the burden of proof to the contrary lies with you.


When you make the statement: If what they were doing was so bad, they wouldn't succeed. You are really playing Pollyanna here.
Do you honestly think the people can do anything once corporations become huge lawless entities? Is Halliburton playing by the rules?Are we stopping them? Germany became HUGE and Hitler succeeded in killing millions of Jews with little of no protest from the rest of the world for quite some time. We are talking corporations that have become larger than entire countries!

Corporations WERE a good thing as was capitalism in the beginning but things have changed and there are many people that want to pretend this is not happening but they are wrong. It seems the people that are profiting the most are the ones that want to see the least. There are many small corporations that have cleaned up their act but they are few and the larger corporation do everything they can to destroy them.

This is not something that was born with the Bush Administration it has been happening for a long time but this administration has changed the rules in order to give certain corporate powers full reign I guess they forgot to take the net into consideration. It is getting harder for them to hide what they are doing. More people are becoming aware and that's why you are seeing this surge in socialism around the world. There is always a rise in socialism when the gap between the rich and poor gets too big. It happened during WWI and it is happening again.

We are not talking simple consumerism and free trade like you have in a free capitalist society we're talking totalitarian control. These corporations by claiming themselves individuals and protecting themselves by abusing the bill of rights are taking full advantage and abusing the people of the world including Americans.

Even Abraham Lincoln had the foresight to see this coming. I don't understand why you want to believe its not happening. You will have to show me proof that the top 10 corporate entities in the world are helping the world. I am willing to listen but I doubt you will find it any evidence. You can't quote small successes from iPod and others but overlook the top 10 corporate POWERS..

Lincoln said
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
â?? U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins

Corporations in and of themselves were not always a bad thing. They started as engines of positive change. But, now they have become excessively large, and concentrated in terms of ownership of an industry and in wealth, Now they are engines for negative change, with the drive for profit at all cost contradicting the social good.

And what about corporate investment in wars not just Iraq all the wars happening now.
Of the 30 members of the Defense Policy Board, the government-appointed group that advises the Pentagon, at least nine have ties to companies that have won billions soon to be trillion in defense contracts. Four members are registered lobbyists, one of whom represents two of the three largest defense contractors.

This website has a few really good papers on the army and how the money for troop training has evaporated and is being funneled into private companies like Boeing,lockheed Martin,Northrop,Halliburton,Raytheon <--- these guys are really bad http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/after/2003/0328advisors.htm (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/after/2003/0328advisors.htm)

There are now 40,000 corporations in the world whose activities cross national boundaries, these firms ply overseas markets through some 250,000 foreign affiliates. Yet, new calculations by the Institute for Policy Studies (IPS) indicate that the top 200 of these global firms account for an alarming and growing share of the world's economic activity. Two hundred giant corporations, most of them larger than many national economies, now control well over a quarter of the world's economic activity. Does that not bother you? Can you not see a problem here?

For example Philip Morris is larger than New Zealand, and it operates in 170 countries but instead of creating an integrated global village, it isolates from the community, endangers the environment and exploits it workers.

All these giant firms concentrate on the production, consumption, and finance that only bring economic benefits to, a third of the world's people. Two-thirds of the world (the bottom 20 percent of the rich countries and the bottom 80 percent of the poor countries) are either left out, marginalized, or hurt by corporate activity.

Really Fengzi I am surprised and disappointed that you don't see the crime here.

Soon there is not going to be any personally left in this world. The would is going to look JUST LIKE THE UNITED STATES it will be a series of strip malls and taco bells. I drove the entire length of this country 2 times in the last 4 years and I what I saw was really sad. Our country use to be a beautiful mix of cultures that changed from town to town that is gone. Every town looks exactly like the last Taco Bell, Mcdonalds, Wal-Mart,KFC, Wendy's they are all there replacing all hint personality and individuality.

If you have seen one small town in this country you have seen them all. It did not use to be this way. The only personally left is on the coasts and that is vanishing too

SOME FACTS
1. Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are now global corporations; only 49 are countries.
2. The combined sales of the world's Top 200 corporations are far greater than a quarter of the world's economic activity.
3. The Top 200 corporations' combined sales are bigger than the combined economies of all countries minus the biggest 9; that is they surpass the combined economies of 182 countries.
4. The Top 200 have almost twice the economic clout of the poorest four-fifths of humanity.
5. The Top 200 have been net job destroyers in recent years. Their combined global employment is only 18.8 million, which is less than a third of one one-hundredth of one percent of the world's people.
6. Not only are the world's largest corporations cutting workers, their CEOs are benefiting financially from the job cuts.

7. Japanese corporations have surpassed U.S. corporations in the ranking of the Top 200
8. Over half of the sales of the Top 200 are in just 5 economic sectors; and corporate concentration in these sectors is high.
9. When General Motors trades with itself, is that free trade?: One-third of world trade is simply transactions among various units of the same corporation.

10. The Top 200 are creating a global economic apartheid, not a global village. The top eight telecommunications firms, for example, have been expanding global sales rapidly, yet over nine-tenths of humanity remains without phones.

[Bong30]

Multinational...... is the name for those.

Enron went down..... why cant the rest?


Here is the other side BC wont see or admit to........


America's Most Philanthropic Companies
Company 2002 Cash Donations (as a % of 2001 income) Change from 2001 2002 Cash Giving ($mil) 2001 Operating Income ($mil)
Target (nyse: TGT - news - people ) 2.56% 2% $96 $3,759
MetLife (nyse: MET - news - people ) 2.51 67 30 1,177
Albertson's (nyse: ABS - news - people ) 2.42 -3 65 2,688
Best Buy (nyse: BBY - news - people ) 2.05 36 16 772
Ford Motor (nyse: F - news - people ) 1.76 69 113 6,432
Cisco Systems (nasdaq: CSCO - news - people ) 1.60 60 36 2,257
American Express (nyse: AXP - news - people ) 1.39 44 32 2,266
Du Pont (nyse: DD - news - people ) 1.33 59 32 2,408
Altria Group (nyse: MO - news - people ) 1.29 42 113 8,765
J.P. Morgan Chase (nyse: JPM - news - people ) 1.21 48 93 7,740
Source: Forbes, The Chronicle of Philanthropy

[BlueCat]

GO play somewhere else Bong...What is it that I am failing to see, that you can cut and paste a few stats but lack a real view of your own? You are not thinking as an individual you are regurgitating what you have been told. Take the green pill Bong.

Damn you were quoting Adams the other day and he was completely against Corporations and their powers! Make up your mind dude go actually read something. GO READ THE WEALTH OF NATIONS before you try and quote from it.

[BlueCat]

And in the future please actually READ my post and the links before commenting. Thanks

[Bong30]

ill post what i like......you cant help that your a dumb socialist.....

what about the money they give away?

what about the taxes they Pay......?

why not just raise the taxes on the evil corps HUH BC?

[Bong30]

Make them short and space them out and I Might......

[Bong30]

Ill never go to a link of yours...thinking it is a Virus Link......


Cut and Paste for me......MMMMMMmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmk

[BlueCat]

YOU MEAN TAXES LIKE THESE BONG? I'll cut it into little short attention span paragraphs maybe you can handle it.

More than half of US corporations paid no federal income taxes during the boom years of the late 1990s, and those that did were able to shelter much of their income, according to congressional accountants.



The report by the General Accounting Office raises questions about whether the corporate income tax burden is too light and distributed unequally. It could undermine arguments that US companies are overtaxed and provide ammunition to politicians and activists who claim companies are using loopholes to avoid paying their fair share.



"This describes a problem in the corporate tax system in which a good many of these companies are avoiding any tax obligation at all," said Senator Byron L. Dorgan, a North Dakota Democrat and former state tax commissioner who requested the GAO study. "We've got a bad tax law that tells ordinary folks, `You pay up,' and allows some of the largest enterprises to avoid paying."

The share of tax receipts paid by corporations has been declining for decades, US government figures show. But it has been falling at an even faster rate in many other countries, said Gary Hufbauer, senior fellow at the Institute for International Economics, and any attempt to raise corporate taxes or close loopholes in this country runs the risk of making US companies less competitive in world markets.

I am sure this article was too long for you too so I won't even bother posting a viral link to gasp The Boston Globe :rolleyes:

As a teacher I don't like to think that there is anyone incapable of learning but when you won't even read the links there's no other conclusion than to think you are IGNORANT. Viral link? Come on grow up. I won't respond to any other post from you Bong why bother?

[Bong30]

why bother.....then dont just put me on Ignore......

your a teacher... Im just a crazy snowboarder......


Yes BC you are BOOK smarter than me, but there is more to life than books...


I would still be my kind of smart, than your kind of stupid.....


you never comment on my points..NEVER,



I like the way you spaced it out.... Thanks.

[Fengzi]

Fengzi,
We usually agree on issues but I am afraid this time I can't agree with you at all and I think you are projecting when you call medicinal narrow minded. I know this is long and you probably won't read it all but I will post it anyway and the burden of proof to the contrary lies with you.


When you make the statement: If what they were doing was so bad, they wouldn't succeed. You are really playing Pollyanna here.
Do you honestly think the people can do anything once corporations become huge lawless entities? Is Halliburton playing by the rules?Are we stopping them? Germany became HUGE and Hitler succeeded in killing millions of Jews with little of no protest from the rest of the world for quite some time. We are talking corporations that have become larger than entire countries!

Honestly, I don't think that there is anything one pissed off school teacher can do to stop them. But yes, "the people" can. Is Walmart that bad? If the answer is "yes" then don't go. Nobody is forcing anyone to shop there. If enough people feel the same way their business will dry up. They'll be forced to change or go out of business. Pure and simple. "What about Halliburton" you may ask, well, aren't "the people" already doing something. I think the big switch on Capital Hill is a start. They may be a bigger fish to fry but the concept is the same. A corporation can only exist if there is a market for it's product. Take away that market, and they go down. As for comparing any corporation to Hitler, it is absurd and I'm not even going to touch it.

Corporations WERE a good thing as was capitalism in the beginning but things have changed and there are many people that want to pretend this is not happening but they are wrong. It seems the people that are profiting the most are the ones that want to see the least. There are many small corporations that have cleaned up their act but they are few and the larger corporation do everything they can to destroy them.

This is pure Darwin. Survival of the fittest. The strong survive and the weak don't. Big companies don't get that way because of some magic ring. They get big because they can do what they do better than the other guy.

This is not something that was born with the Bush Administration it has been happening for a long time but this administration has changed the rules in order to give certain corporate powers full reign I guess they forgot to take the net into consideration. It is getting harder for them to hide what they are doing. More people are becoming aware and that's why you are seeing this surge in socialism around the world. There is always a rise in socialism when the gap between the rich and poor gets too big. It happened during WWI and it is happening again.

True, true. And, after the socialist (or communist) countries fall far behind the others because these systems simply don't work, they start adopting market reforms and become just as capitalistic as the next guy.

We are not talking simple consumerism and free trade like you have in a free capitalist society we're talking totalitarian control. These corporations by claiming themselves individuals and protecting themselves by abusing the bill of rights are taking full advantage and abusing the people of the world including Americans.

Even Abraham Lincoln had the foresight to see this coming. I don't understand why you want to believe its not happening. You will have to show me proof that the top 10 corporate entities in the world are helping the world. I am willing to listen but I doubt you will find it any evidence. You can't quote small successes from iPod and others but overlook the top 10 corporate POWERS..

Well, how do you define "helping"? If by "helping" you mean that they decide to not be as successful as they can be so that some other inferior company can have a little bigger piece of the pie, then no, they aren't helping. But what about the thousands of people these big corporations employ? What about the products that these big corporations purchase from other companies, and, in turn, the people that thes other companies employ? What about a person who works for big, bad Corporation X that has a salary that enables him to go out and donate to his favorite charity? If you put big bad Corporation X out of business it's just not a few fat cats at the top who will be hurt. It could be hundred's of thousands, if not millions of people who would be hurt. If you have a company who's gross income is larger than many countries economies, you can't just do away with them and not expect some pretty serious fallout.

Lincoln said
"I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country. ... corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed."
â?? U.S. President Abraham Lincoln, Nov. 21, 1864 (letter to Col. William F. Elkins

Corporations in and of themselves were not always a bad thing. They started as engines of positive change. But, now they have become excessively large, and concentrated in terms of ownership of an industry and in wealth, Now they are engines for negative change, with the drive for profit at all cost contradicting the social good.

And what about corporate investment in wars not just Iraq all the wars happening now.
Of the 30 members of the Defense Policy Board, the government-appointed group that advises the Pentagon, at least nine have ties to companies that have won billions soon to be trillion in defense contracts. Four members are registered lobbyists, one of whom represents two of the three largest defense contractors.

This website has a few really good papers on the army and how the money for troop training has evaporated and is being funneled into private companies like Boeing,lockheed Martin,Northrop,Halliburton,Raytheon <--- these guys are really bad http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/after/2003/0328advisors.htm (http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/after/2003/0328advisors.htm)

I agree with you in principle, producing weapons is bad. But, how many people make a living from it? Have you ever thought about it? Stop producing all weapons all together. It sounds like a great idea, doesn't it? But how many industries would be involved? Do away with all weapons production and I guaruntee that a lot of hard working steel workers in the midwest would be out of a job. What about all those electronic gadgets going into modern weaponry? Ooops, looks like the high tech industries are going to get hurt too. No more army, no more uniforms. Oh well, that cotton farmer didn't need his job, did he? Starting to see the big picture?

There are now 40,000 corporations in the world whose activities cross national boundaries, these firms ply overseas markets through some 250,000 foreign affiliates. Yet, new calculations by the Institute for Policy Studies (IPS) indicate that the top 200 of these global firms account for an alarming and growing share of the world's economic activity. Two hundred giant corporations, most of them larger than many national economies, now control well over a quarter of the world's economic activity. Does that not bother you? Can you not see a problem here?

For example Philip Morris is larger than New Zealand, and it operates in 170 countries but instead of creating an integrated global village, it isolates from the community, endangers the environment and exploits it workers.

All these giant firms concentrate on the production, consumption, and finance that only bring economic benefits to, a third of the world's people. Two-thirds of the world (the bottom 20 percent of the rich countries and the bottom 80 percent of the poor countries) are either left out, marginalized, or hurt by corporate activity.

Really Fengzi I am surprised and disappointed that you don't see the crime here.

No, I don't see a crime here. First of all, I see the big picture. Like I just mentioned above, the activities of these big corporations touch the lives of a great deal more people than just it's own employees.

Second, if their activities did not benefit a signifigant number of people in some way, they would cease to exist.

Third, what are they supposed to do? Seriously. Take the U.S television industry for example. "What industry?". Exactly. The Japanese wiped out the U.S. tv industry because the U.S. intentionally did not make a better product. Our domestic tv industry produced a product that would break down within a few years so that they could sell more. The Japanese said "fuck that" we build them to last, and before you know it our industry was gone.
I got a bit off track here but I have a point. You are criticizing these corporations for being successful, for trying their hardest to be as good and as big as they can be. But, look what happened when they don't.

Soon there is not going to be any personally left in this world. The would is going to look JUST LIKE THE UNITED STATES it will be a series of strip malls and taco bells. I drove the entire length of this country 2 times in the last 4 years and I what I saw was really sad. Our country use to be a beautiful mix of cultures that changed from town to town that is gone. Every town looks exactly like the last Taco Bell, Mcdonalds, Wal-Mart,KFC, Wendy's they are all there replacing all hint personality and individuality.

If you have seen one small town in this country you have seen them all. It did not use to be this way. The only personally left is on the coasts and that is vanishing too

Alas, this is sad. I personally head to my local mom-n-pop taqueria instead of Taco Bell and I haven't eaten at a McDs since 1997 (living in China and desperate for fries). But what can we do? Outlaw McD's?

SOME FACTS
1. Of the 100 largest economies in the world, 51 are now global corporations; only 49 are countries.
2. The combined sales of the world's Top 200 corporations are far greater than a quarter of the world's economic activity.
3. The Top 200 corporations' combined sales are bigger than the combined economies of all countries minus the biggest 9; that is they surpass the combined economies of 182 countries.
4. The Top 200 have almost twice the economic clout of the poorest four-fifths of humanity.
5. The Top 200 have been net job destroyers in recent years. Their combined global employment is only 18.8 million, which is less than a third of one one-hundredth of one percent of the world's people.
6. Not only are the world's largest corporations cutting workers, their CEOs are benefiting financially from the job cuts.

7. Japanese corporations have surpassed U.S. corporations in the ranking of the Top 200
8. Over half of the sales of the Top 200 are in just 5 economic sectors; and corporate concentration in these sectors is high.
9. When General Motors trades with itself, is that free trade?: One-third of world trade is simply transactions among various units of the same corporation.

10. The Top 200 are creating a global economic apartheid, not a global village. The top eight telecommunications firms, for example, have been expanding global sales rapidly, yet over nine-tenths of humanity remains without phones. So?? Interesting facts but.... And "global economic aparteid"? Not sure what this means. Is it the top eight telecomunications firms' fault that 9/10 of the world doesn't have phones? Really BlueCat, don't you think these companies would love everyone to have phones? But what can they do?

It still sounds to me like you're criticizing big corporations for their sucess. I'm not sure how you feel about Microsoft but I'll use it, and Bill Gates, as an example. Bill Gates is either a genius or the Devil, depending on who you talk to. I favor the former opinion so I'll attack the latter.

People love to bitch about Microsoft and their power but really, what have they done wrong? Microsoft became what it is though a mixture of intelligence, good business sense, and pure luck. Bill Gates and his pals came up with a new computer language, partnered with IBM, and the Microsoft took off. Everything else was just sucessful business.

Here's a hypothetical question BlueCat: You and 'Fred' are working together at a certain company. Your boss pulls you aside and says "Blue, your work is incredible. You could be the best ever at this line of work and have the potential to revolutionize the industry and be wildly successful. Only one problem. You are so good that we don't need Fred anymore. So, I give you a choice. You either need to cut down your productivity, become complacent and remain where you are forever. Or, accept the fact that for you to succeed, Fred has to lose his job". So Blue, what's your choice?

[Fengzi]

Oh yeah, don't get me wrong. There are bad people associated with some corporations that do bad things in the corporation's name. I will not dispute this. It is only the concept of big corporations that I am defending.

[BlueCat]

It is the "concept" that I am talking about too,Fengzi. I said it WAS a good idea but by giving the largest corporations full reign they have destroyed it for everyone else. It is a failed concept if you look at the macro view. You are presenting individual examples and that is micro. I am talking about looking at the whole. I am saying if you look at the top corporations in this world they are doing more harm than good to humanity as a whole and to our environment. Can you show me that they aren't? Or do you agree? I am not clear on how you stand on this issue...

[medicinal]

Thanks blue cat, couldn't have said it half as good.

[BlueCat]

quick and short...because I have posted an answer 3 times now and the server IS NOT WORKING :mad:
there are other industries that use steel and aren't weapon industries how about MASS TRANSIT it sucks in this country. We could rebuild our railroad...oh but no that might piss off the oil industries and they seem to be running the show. Don't think outside the box now you don't want to cause a ripple in the system...

But what can we do? Outlaw McD's?

No but we can stop allowing these giants to buy off politicians and close the loop holes in the system that allows these big companies to make it harder for the little guy to exist..There is enough to go around ya know if the giants don't get greedy.
They don't want anyone else to succeed. Down with individuality. Our current education system is made to train good non thinking egg layers not people that might want something different. After all you are right someone has to run the big egg house and keep all the chickens in line. Soon there will be nothing different..

Here's a hypothetical question BlueCat: You and 'Fred' are working together at a certain company. Your boss pulls you aside and says "Blue, your work is incredible. You could be the best ever at this line of work and have the potential to revolutionize the industry and be wildly successful. Only one problem. You are so good that we don't need Fred anymore. So, I give you a choice. You either need to cut down your productivity, become complacent and remain where you are forever. Or, accept the fact that for you to succeed, Fred has to lose his job". So Blue, what's your choice?

My choice would be to speak with my bosses boss because if I am that good and the best my boss can do is the Rumsfeld solution, drop productivity or down size its not my co worker that needs firing.

Really BlueCat, don't you think these companies would love everyone to have phones? But what can they do?

They can stop detroying the land and forcing the sale of land from native peoples so the "civilized" folk can have their phones.

Or how about when they kill them for wanting safe working conditions like Coca Cola did in Columbia...

There is no excuse for the power and the crimes happening in the corporate world. As far as I am concerned the survival of the fittest argument is a cop out, a way to turn a blind eye....it is a sign of moral degradation when the want for profit outweighs the needs of humanity and that is the direction we've taken.

[BlueCat]

Thanks blue cat, couldn't have said it half as good.


Sure you could...thanks for inspiring my rant :)

[Zimzum]

BC while I don't feel all the same about corporations as you, allot of good has come out of many(not saying all). Microsoft has opened technology high schools all over the world in low income areas. One was near my old Boston University dorm. FedEx flew over 230 tons of medical equipment to the victims of that 2005 tsunami. Coke and Pepsi donated tons of fresh bottled water to the area as well. And top corporate donor for 9/11 goes to ExxonMoble :confused:

There is still good that comes out of some.

[Fengzi]

My examples may be a micro view but they are just representations of the macro view. I do not believe that big corporations are doing more harm than good to humanity. Big corporations:

-Employ millions of people.
-Big corporations have needs that must be met by outside sources. These outside sources employ millions of people.
-Big corporations can take advantage of economies of scale, which smaller corporations cannot. The result is more efficient production and lower prices for all.
-Big corporations can afford the R&D costs that smaller companies cannot. Despite the fact that the pharmaceutical industry may be one of the closest thing to the "big bad wolf" in the corporate world, they do come up with new medicines, which save peoples lives. These medications, advances in artificial organs, prostheses, etc, are not cheap to develop, perfect, and get to market. The average guy working in his garage, no matter how well intentioned, just can't do it.
-Big corporations can absorb blows to their business much better than smaller companies do. A setback that would destroy a small company, and put its workers out of a job, is just a small hiccup for a large corporation.

I do agree that large corporations should be held to the same laws that everyone else is, and that the loopholes to get around these laws should be closed. We’re already seeing that happening after Enron. In fact, corporate America is now paying millions of $ to comply with the new laws that have resulted from the whole mess. And rightly so! You see, I’m not saying that we should give free reign to big corporations, I’m simply saying that big corporations, and capitalism, work.


What I've failed to see from the left is any realistic solution to this "problem". There is a lot of whining about it but nobody offers any alternatives. At least not any that will work. “Rebuild the railroad”??. Please, wtf for? While were at it, why don’t we just go back to horses and stagecoaches? You accuse me of not thinking outside the box. Well, when what lies on the other side is Never Never Land, then yeah, I guess I’m guilty. I kick myself for saying this, and I think a monkey could handle Iraq better than Bush, but G Dubya has a point when he says something like " My opponents criticize my Iraq plan but they don't have any alternative".

It may surprise you Blue, but I used to be a tree hugging, longhaired, protesting hippy myself. Then I started hanging out with these folks from Berkeley who loved to bitch about and protest the cause of the week but none really had any in depth knowledge of what they were bitching about or could offer any solution. There was just the standard knee jerk reaction to anything they thought should be bad. It just put a really bad taste in my mouth when it comes to the far left. They’re full of dreams of peace, love, and happiness for all, but that’s all they are- dreams. The reality is (except maybe for a few days a year out in the Nevada desert) good wishes, veggie burritos, hugs, and patchuli oil just isn’t a viable solution to the worlds problems.

[Fengzi]

Here's a hypothetical question BlueCat: You and 'Fred' are working together at a certain company. Your boss pulls you aside and says "Blue, your work is incredible. You could be the best ever at this line of work and have the potential to revolutionize the industry and be wildly successful. Only one problem. You are so good that we don't need Fred anymore. So, I give you a choice. You either need to cut down your productivity, become complacent and remain where you are forever. Or, accept the fact that for you to succeed, Fred has to lose his job". So Blue, what's your choice?

My choice would be to speak with my bosses boss because if I am that good and the best my boss can do is the Rumsfeld solution, drop productivity or down size its not my co worker that needs firing.

.

LOL, Why didn't I see this coming. Shit, even a blind man could have seen this response coming from a mile away. I was hoping for a specific response but should have figured you would find a way to wiggle out of it.

The question itself was a simplification of the fact that, in the real world, in order to be successful there are hard choices to be made, and very often it comes down to the lesser of two evils. I'm not talling about questions such as choosing the legal, or illegal, path or between clearly immoral and moral decisions. I'm talking about the simple fact that many times in business, for someone to succeed someone else must be hurt.

So, let's go back to my question. Fred is clearly not productive. The boss has given him additional training, and tried him out in several positions, but he just isn't cutting it. But the boss has a good heart and doesn't want to fire Fred. But to keep Fred you can not advance. It's a simple question of distributing the resources. So, once again, what do you choose?

You see, businesses face these questions every day. While it would be nice if the boss had a magic solution and such awesome management skill that Fred could keep his job, most people do not. And, if they did have such awesome skills, they'd grow their organization into a huge corporation and the left would still bitch.

[BlueCat]

Well you have changed the scenario but okay lets see...he is a non productive worker.. THE BOSS should let him go and maybe he will find the niche he belongs in. It still would not be my choice it is the responsibility of the boss to choose who is doing the better job. If he chooses wrong it reflects on him. I'd fire that freeloading dude and take the smart one to dinner :D

SO explain to me what that ^ has to do with this?

THE TOP 100 CORPORATE CRIMINALS OF THE 1990's

1) F. Hoffmann-La Roche Ltd.
Type of Crime: Antitrust
Criminal Fine: $500 million
12 Corporate Crime Reporter 21(1), May 24, 1999

2) Daiwa Bank Ltd.
Type of Crime: Financial
Criminal Fine: $340 million
10 Corporate Crime Reporter 9(3), March 4, 1996

3) BASF Aktiengesellschaft
Type of Crime: Antitrust
Criminal Fine: $225 million
12 Corporate Crime Reporter 21(1), May 24, 1999

4) SGL Carbon Aktiengesellschaft (SGL AG)
Type of Crime: Antitrust
Criminal Fine: $135 million
12 Corporate Crime Reporter 19(4), May 10, 1999

5) Exxon Corporation and Exxon Shipping
Type of Crime: Environmental
Criminal Fine: $125 million
5 Corporate Crime Reporter 11(3), March 18, 1991

6) UCAR International, Inc.
Type of Crime: Antitrust
Criminal Fine: $110 million
12 Corporate Crime Reporter 15(6), April 13, 1998

7) Archer Daniels Midland
Type of Crime: Antitrust
Criminal Fine: $100 million
10 Corporate Crime Reporter 40(1), October 21, 1996

8)(tie) Banker's Trust
Type of Crime: Financial
Criminal Fine: $60 million
12 Corporate Crime Reporter 11(1), March 15, 1999

8)(tie) Sears Bankruptcy Recovery Management Services
Type of Crime: Fraud
Criminal Fine: $60 million
13 Corporate Crime Reporter 7(1), February 15, 1999

10) Haarman & Reimer Corp.
Type of Crime: Antitrust
Criminal fine: $50 million
11 Corporate Crime Reporter 5(4), February 3, 1997

and on and on and on I just listed a mere 10...

http://www.corporatecrimereporter.com/top100.html

May this will slow it down a little...

http://www.cleanupwashington.org/blog/index.cfm?BE_ID=100274

[psychocat]

The biggest enemy of the American people is the complacencey that allows this kind of stupidity to flourish : http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2587661313510275113&q=label%3A%22stupid%22

Big business is very dirty, generosity of business to charity is BS (it's all about tax breaks which they get for donating) and it's all about cheap goods and cheap labour for maximum profit, they don't care about you or the sweat shop labour that supplies most of thier goods.

I have never had problems with money and I don't suppose I ever will but the difference between me and the boys who work for corporations is that I refuse to be dishonest, they thrive on it.

[BlueCat]

BC while I don't feel all the same about corporations as you, allot of good has come out of many(not saying all). Microsoft has opened technology high schools all over the world in low income areas. One was near my old Boston University dorm. FedEx flew over 230 tons of medical equipment to the victims of that 2005 tsunami. Coke and Pepsi donated tons of fresh bottled water to the area as well. And top corporate donor for 9/11 goes to ExxonMoble :confused:

There is still good that comes out of some.

Hi Zimzum...SO how do YOU feel toward Exxon or Coke? Do you watch what they do or just accept that they follow the law?

I said there are SOME good corporations exxon or coke are not...my beef is with the top 100 corporate crooks...you can name this good business and that good business but that is not the issue and it does not justify what the real crooks are doing..

I'm suppose to feel better about exxon because they donated the most money during 9/11?:confused::confused: I don't follow that type of reasoning sorry.

Exxon Corporation and Exxon Shipping
Type of Crime: Environmental
Criminal Fine: $125 million

Exxon Corporation and Exxon Shipping pled guilty to federal criminal charges in connection with the March 24, 1989 Exxon Valdez oil spill.


The company was assessed a $125 million criminal fine.
Attorney General Dick Thornburgh called the fine "the largest single environmental criminal recovery ever enacted."
The companies pled guilty to misdemeanor violations of federal environmental laws.
Approximately 11 million gallons of crude oil spilled from the Valdez, fouling 700 miles of Alaska shoreline, killing birds and fish, and destroying the way of life of thousands of Native Americans.

ANOTHER: Exxon Corporation pled guilty to federal charges in connection with a spill last year of 567,000 gallons of home heating oil into Arthur Kill, a narrow waterway which separates New York from New Jersey. Exxon entered the plea as part of a $15 million settlement with local, state and federal governments.

Exxon was fined $200,000 the maximum allowed by law, but paid an additional $4.8 million in restitution as part of a $15 million package global settlement.



They just plead guilty and pay the fines they can afford to do it over and over again raping the earth and paying the fines..


This was interesting..


The mock trial of ExxonMobil, held at the University of Texas in Dallas, found the company guilty of crimes against humanity for its oil production and exploration in the developing world, including the African nations of Chad and Cameroon.


http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewBusiness.asp?Page=%5CBusiness%5Carchive%5C2002 05%5CBUS20020529a.html



You might find this interesting too

http://www.killercoke.org/

PEACE

Cat

[BlueCat]

The biggest enemy of the American people is the complacencey that allows this kind of stupidity to flourish : http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-2587661313510275113&q=label%3A%22stupid%22

Big business is very dirty, generosity of business to charity is BS (it's all about tax breaks which they get for donating) and it's all about cheap goods and cheap labour for maximum profit, they don't care about you or the sweat shop labour that supplies most of thier goods.

I have never had problems with money and I don't suppose I ever will but the difference between me and the boys who work for corporations is that I refuse to be dishonest, they thrive on it.

AMEN :clap:
I just wanted to say...I love you,man. :stoned:
HAHAHAHAHAHA thanks for the laugh psychocat...damn I hope those North Korean Aussies don't invade!

Great video :D