god vs. no god

[nikweiser]

ok basically this post is just kind of a little rant in a way.. just felt like talking about it so please bare with me:D
me and my buddies were getting into the subject of religion.. going back and forth on different subjects..
i just came to relize that my friend support gods side always used responses like.. havent you read the bible or read the bible like that was a good defense for his arguement? i just dont get why it seems like most christians rely to faith and reading the bible.. like reading the bible is going to show me that god is real? its a book that was written thousands of years ago and has probably been changed each time it was rewritten? and we give facts on evolution and how shit was made and he dosent belive in evolution..
all im saying is why are people so oblivious to it with how much proof we have.. and his proof is read the bible?

also to make it clear, i am in no way putting down the christian religion or anyone else for that matter, im just wondering my last statment
and if any of this dosent make sense, its 2 am and im not baked anymore and real tired :P

[JunkYard]

That's an all too common response from Christians.. .."Read the Bible", lol! I nearly break out in laughter everytime I here that, then at times it greatly offends me. But, I am a Christian at heart, meaning I dig what Jesus did, and I try to follow his example.

Does God exist? Well, I think so, but like someone pointed out, belief is in the mind, and God can't be proven. I guess you either believe, or don't. Then there might be a time in your life that something happens that seems soo miraculous you can't deny his existence any longer. It happened to me, but it was the subtle things that seemed so miraculous.

Many Christians attempt to convert people into their religion with fear, and then the atheist try to disprove them, as well as others who are content just believing having no need to convert. Why is this a reality? Maybe instead of questioning the unprovable and trying to convince others they are wrong, we should consider our own acts of futility, and ask ourselves why we do what we do? Are we looking for answers, or are we just out to argue, and cause resistance between each other?

Just be happy and live, man! This might be the only life we get.. ..


Love,


:smokin:

[HiProGlow]

I think you're on to something. Whenever I hear a Christian asking me if I've read the Bible I kind-of-chuckle. (Eventhough I've read it several times, cover to cover, new and old) My response is, have you looked around? You don't need a Bible to be connected with God. Granted, there are lessons to be learned from the ancient texts but they are by no means the end all be all. See, it's easy to believe in a glorified Christ, that is, a Christ who reigns in Heaven....in fact there are millions of people who do. Yet, I think the numbers would dwindle a bit if these so called "Christians" were contemporary with Christ. Would they believe that this poor, carpenter's son was the messiah? Would they stand by his side as he was pelted with stones, spat on, whipped, ridiculed? All very interesting if you ask me....but every true Christian HAS to become contemporary with Christ. The Bible is a good reference point but it can only take a person so far, advise him along his way, if you will, but it will not force him to have true faith. The answer is in the real life now. If you ask me, who needs Heaven? THIS is Heaven. I believe paradise can be found on Earth, right here, right now......I guess this is my message in a nut shell.....if the world wants to know if God exists I believe there is a simple solution. For example....imagine you are a King and you are in your castle. Suddenly every person in your kingdom calls out your name. Would you remain in your castle and ignore them? I highly doubt it. I think the same applies to God, as above, so below.....if we could all shut up for five minutes and call out to what we believe to be God, at the same time, do you think God would ignore us? Hmmm, I wonder. Peace!

[mrdevious]

It's really best not to start this argument again. The God debate has been going on for years on this board, and I've argued every point there is to be argued over and over and over and over....... and at the end those arguments are just ignored and the same arguments, that have been made then shot down a billion times, are made once again in the next thread. There's no point trying to have a logical argument when, if you logically corner your opponent, they then claim you can throw logic out the window and the belief still makes sense.

[greendove]

I'm a huge believer in logic. I was a philosophy major for a short time, and I haven't yet been able to drag myself out of that mode. That's why I find very few Christians that I get along with very well... we just can't seem to get past our differences.

I consider myself agnostic. I honestly don't know, because I haven't been dead yet, and I don't know anyone who has. However, I would like to think that there's something more to all of this than just what we've got right here. I hope so. But, I don't know... I've got a feeling that there haven't been many people who have died, gotten to whatever afterlife there may be, and then said, "Wow... I was completely right!". The odds are just against that, because even among Christains, there are so many different beliefs and variations. If there is a god, I hope he's the type of being that wouldn't send Ghandi to "hell" for being Hindu, and that he certainly doesn't "hate fags", like so many churches like to preach. I feel like it all boils down to the type of person you are, and how much you've grown as a person in the life you've led, not the minor details. I like to think that, if there is a God, it's a god of love, and not condemnation.

[hazetwostep]

junkyard and hipro... i like what you guys said.

[hewhispers]

Greendove...

Nice post. I am somewhat of a closet agnostic.
How can you know? How can anyone possibly know?

And how arrogant it is for religion to preach that WE (they) are God's chosen people. So everybody else got it wrong? Drives me insane.

And what of those born before the creation of that religion?
Doesnt seem fair that they are unsaved because they saw life before the Bible or Koran.

Religion has its purpose. Moral grounding. "Thou shall not...."
And that does have value.

As far as God....I cant wrap my brain around it.
What was here before there was nothing?
And how did nothing turn into this?
We think of "time" as a linear line. Start at Point A, end at Point Z.
There's more to it than that, but I don't know what it is.

Like size the universe.....
How can it go on FOREVER?
And if it has a boundary, then there's more to it thats outside our reach.
Maybe its like Asteroids. Get to the top and get transported to the bottom.
I try not to think about it. The "not knowing" could drive me insane.

[epicsoundz69]

I have no religion, but that doesnt mean I dont believe in anything I believe that there IS a higher power. I do not think that human-kind truly understands this power, and probably never will. There probably have been "enlightened" individuals that came close to understanding, but its the other people, the ones taking account of the events, etc., that I dont believe. I choose not to live my life according to what other people have said, when I see that obviously they can be biased, persuaded, or corrupted. I try to live my life as best I can. If I'm wrong, then so be it, but "I" wil have lived "my" life to the fullest

[epicsoundz69]

dude.

i wrote a big ol theory to add but my 5 min ran out and it erased it all

damnit

[Pass That Shit]

It's not that complicated. Have faith in his word. His word will guide you in truth.

What's the difference about the start of either God or Science? I don't see the difference in the reasoning about how God began or how the "energy of life" that the non christian believes in began. Where did it start from? Nothing? Where did that energy come from? Where did the thing that caused that energy to start come from? What's the beginning of Science?

I think whether the "energy" is God or not, most will probably agree that it has ALWAYS existed.

To me, eternity is a single day. A day of sunshine. A day to come. :thumbsup:

[greendove]

Greendove...

The "not knowing" could drive me insane.

Aw, thanks. :) What got me out of going crazy by the "not knowing" (and I almost did at one point) was the understanding that I really can't know, or that knowing is something I'm not supposed to do... yet.

[Pass That Shit]

And just to clarify, it's not "we", it's "he".

We don't claim that "our" word is true, we claim that "his" word is true.

[JeenYuss]

the bible was written by MEN... human beings, for all i know, that whole book could be intended to be a fictitious parody/story/theorhetical idea that was accidentally published as "gods" word, not to mention how much it's changed, re-written, mistranslated etc.

95% of EVERYTHING between those covers is wrong/fictitious/bullshit/etc.

conclusion:

god may or may not exist, but the bible is BULL SHIT

[wrasler]

i believe in God by this premise: where did everything originate? there had to have been a starting point somewhere. if a higher being did not create it, how did it come into being? food doesn't spontaneously appear on a table. it comes from ingredients that did not appear out of thin air.

[MastaChronic]

i believe in God by this premise: where did everything originate? there had to have been a starting point somewhere. if a higher being did not create it, how did it come into being? food doesn't spontaneously appear on a table. it comes from ingredients that did not appear out of thin air.

neither does a god, who created god? and who created the creator of that god? and who created that creator?
the creationists had it right all along, intelligent life cant just appear out of no where, thats why there can be no god.

[greendove]

i believe in God by this premise: where did everything originate? there had to have been a starting point somewhere. if a higher being did not create it, how did it come into being? food doesn't spontaneously appear on a table. it comes from ingredients that did not appear out of thin air.

Just because everything had to have a starting point, it doesn't automatically mean that it was a God that created everything. I don't precisely know where my desk lamp came from either, but I bet it wasn't God. Thomas Aquinas was made famous by this argument, but it's still based on a logical fallacy.

[bavet]

Bible was written by men insprired by the Holy Sprit, The Bible was written over many hundreds of years by many men but if read, will seem to be by One Person Because the Holy Sprit Wrote it. It IS the Word Of God, the final authoriy in all matters. All you need to know to live this life as God intended. Accept it or reject it, belive in God and His Son Jesus or don't. where you spend eternaty is tottaly up to you weather you belive or not. Forget the religous mumbo jumbo, God isn't about that. It is all about a one on One personal relationship with God through Jesus. For those that belive, know, for those that don't God stands at the door and knocks waitting for you. Tomorrow is promasied to no one. Something tells me spending eternaty with my Creator is much better then eternaty seporated from my Creator. www.liveprayer.com God bless

[the yeag]

I just wish one of you snake handling bible thumpers would quote me some scripture for me to recite to the Mormons and Jehovah's that come around recruiting that shows that soliciting religion is wrong..

[MastaChronic]

Bible was written by men insprired by the Holy Sprit, The Bible was written over many hundreds of years by many men but if read, will seem to be by One Person Because the Holy Sprit Wrote it. It IS the Word Of God, the final authoriy in all matters. All you need to know to live this life as God intended. Accept it or reject it, belive in God and His Son Jesus or don't. where you spend eternaty is tottaly up to you weather you belive or not. Forget the religous mumbo jumbo, God isn't about that. It is all about a one on One personal relationship with God through Jesus. For those that belive, know, for those that don't God stands at the door and knocks waitting for you. Tomorrow is promasied to no one. Something tells me spending eternaty with my Creator is much better then eternaty seporated from my Creator. www.liveprayer.com God bless

first of all, why would the church accept some doctines while rejecting others?
the end of days described by paul said that at the end jesus will descend into hell and free everyone, yet its not in the bible becuase the church rejected it.
why?
because then people would believe that they wouldnt spend an eternity seperated from their creator. thats why.
of course, i think the bible is a load of fictional bullshit with good morals in it and that is what it really is.
before the bible was ever written and people didnt believe in this "living god", did they get sent to "hell"?
would this god punish people because they had no idea of his existance?
why do you need the bible in order to believe in god?
shouldnt it be the other way around?
you need god in order to believe in the bible?
but if you had never heard of the bible then you would have never heard of this god.
if you were seperated completely from any and all religious things and never once heard anyone ever talk about god or the bible, would you believe there was a higher power?
how could you? youve never heard of such a thing.

[nikweiser]

exactly.
and also adding to mastachronic about who created god? you need 2 to make something, you can just make something with 1, i.e. god. this world was created by evolution, and TIME.. time created all the things that have evolved from just rocks and water and heat and gravity and weathering and the cycle the earth has been going through for ages..
how did "god" put adam and eve on this earth? how did god just snap his fingers and make our creatures?
also a friend of mine was telling me he asked his pastor if his dog would go to heaven when it died and his pastor said it wouldnt go anywhere.. i dont get why the christian religion animals have no soul? i mean if my cats and dog dont have souls, i dont have a soul.. they are living creatures like us.. everything is a living creature we are not something else other then a creature.. which is what the religion makes us look like when we say animals have no soul.

sorry if non of that makes sense.. its just more ranting and it makes sense to me thats what matters =]
happy tokes

[hewhispers]

Just because everything had to have a starting point, it doesn't automatically mean that it was a God that created everything. I don't precisely know where my desk lamp came from either, but I bet it wasn't God. Thomas Aquinas was made famous by this argument, but it's still based on a logical fallacy.

Ok, but here's the thing...and it can be applied to both the universe as a whole, and the Earth specifically.

Before there was something, there was nothing.
Thats some transition.
Even with the big bang.
What was before that?
A big rock?
And before that?

And then what about Earth.
Initally it was lifeless. At least thats the assumption.
And then :POOF: there was life. :birthday:

Now thats some trick.
Agreed?

[HiProGlow]

Perhaps our limitations make something from nothing seem like a big deal. What if we looked at the problem on a smaller scale. For example, our thoughts. Ever notice how they appear random but in reality are not? They are a result of composite perception and base chemical reactions...we create inner universes out of mere emotional responses...perhaps the universe in the same manner realised it's own infinity, gasped and created thousands more?? <stoned rant, don't hold it against me> Peace!

[greendove]

Ok, but here's the thing...and it can be applied to both the universe as a whole, and the Earth specifically.

Before there was something, there was nothing.
Thats some transition.
Even with the big bang.
What was before that?
A big rock?
And before that?

And then what about Earth.
Initally it was lifeless. At least thats the assumption.
And then :POOF: there was life. :birthday:

Now thats some trick.
Agreed?

"Trick" or not, this is known as the fallacy of "Burden of Proof" or "Appeal to Ignorance". To break it down, you're stating that A.) Something happened to create the universe. B.) Since no one knows what, that answer has to be "God". Not very logically sound. It's a good thing that religion is based on faith, and not logic.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

[the yeag]

I just wish one of you snake handling bible thumpers would quote me some scripture for me to recite to the Mormons and Jehovah's that come around recruiting that shows that soliciting religion is wrong..
hey i am serious..a little help please for the pope:jointsmile:

[wrasler]

the nice thing about faith is thats just what it is-faith in things unseen. i happen to have faith in a God, who is eternal. He never was "created". He always has been and always will be. from there, He created the earth. i am trying to understand your point of view. it does not allow for a higher being, so how did the earth come into existence? where did matter originate? if it was in the "big bang", what specifically caused it? what was the beginning of existence of anything physical? i am not trying to convert any of you to a particular religion, just wondering what you believe. the beauty of this argument is that no one was around when life began and therefore you cannot prove to me there is not a God, as i cannot prove to you there is. so in reality, it is essentially pointless to argue about this topic.

[MastaChronic]

the nice thing about faith is thats just what it is-faith in things unseen. i happen to have faith in a God, who is eternal. He never was "created". He always has been and always will be. from there, He created the earth. i am trying to understand your point of view. it does not allow for a higher being, so how did the earth come into existence? where did matter originate? if it was in the "big bang", what specifically caused it? what was the beginning of existence of anything physical? i am not trying to convert any of you to a particular religion, just wondering what you believe. the beauty of this argument is that no one was around when life began and therefore you cannot prove to me there is not a God, as i cannot prove to you there is. so in reality, it is essentially pointless to argue about this topic.

well
following this logic, prove to me that reality was not shit out by atomic space jellyfish that orbit the horsehead nebula.
you cant disprove it, therefore it must be true.

[greendove]

the beauty of this argument is that no one was around when life began and therefore you cannot prove to me there is not a God, as i cannot prove to you there is. so in reality, it is essentially pointless to argue about this topic.

Precisely. I'm just one of those folks content to not know for now. Maybe the answers will be mine to know one day. Good for you folks who have already found yours.

[cbdave]

If you look at the universe it seems like every law in physics was made specifically for life to exist. If one small feature of physics was different we would not exist. Also in quantum mechaniques in order for something to exist it must be observed. If our universe is the only universe then it would be too much of a coincidence for us to exist, so god had to have created us and is watching us now. If it turns out that there are trillions of other parallel universes right next to us,(which is probably the case), then most of those universes have no life and we are just a lucky percentage. Also with parellel universes something does not have to be observed to exist. I don't know which one is right, but beyond our universe there still may possibly be a greater power

[hewhispers]

B.) Since no one knows what, that answer has to be "God". Not very logically sound. It's a good thing that religion is based on faith, and not logic.

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/burden-of-proof.html

I certainly am not filing all that is not known under God.
My point was that life came from non-life.
That to me this is the only true miracle that I can think of.
Maybe one day man will be able to something so amazing.
I tend to doubt it.

The whole Intelligent Design theory is a sad attempt by Christians/right wing to insert God into evolution.

[wrasler]

well
following this logic, prove to me that reality was not shit out by atomic space jellyfish that orbit the horsehead nebula.
you cant disprove it, therefore it must be true.

you are totally misconstruing my words. i am stating what i believe. i am not trying to convince you one way or the other. i also was not stating that because you cannot prove one way or the other, that my belief is true; its just what i happen to believe.

hewhispers,
sorry to say this, but "right-wing" has nothing to do with intelligent design. many faiths have believed in a creator long before darwin hypothesized the theory of evolution in the 1800s. a thing to keep in mind is that whatever you believe about the origin of the universe and life is this: EVERY IDEA IS A THEORY. no one was there, therefore you cannot prove one over the other. if you could, they would be LAWS.

[JeenYuss]

Bible was written by men insprired by the Holy Sprit, The Bible was written over many hundreds of years by many men but if read, will seem to be by One Person Because the Holy Sprit Wrote it. It IS the Word Of God, the final authoriy in all matters. All you need to know to live this life as God intended. Accept it or reject it, belive in God and His Son Jesus or don't. where you spend eternaty is tottaly up to you weather you belive or not. Forget the religous mumbo jumbo, God isn't about that. It is all about a one on One personal relationship with God through Jesus. For those that belive, know, for those that don't God stands at the door and knocks waitting for you. Tomorrow is promasied to no one. Something tells me spending eternaty with my Creator is much better then eternaty seporated from my Creator. www.liveprayer.com God bless

so PROVE that it was the holy spirit they were writing maybe they were all sum ass holes on peyote or sumthin? moses hits that crack pipe too much maybe

[JeenYuss]

the big bang wasnt a big ball of matter like a lot of people think, it was a small area of pure energy and mass combined and compressed into such a small area that caused it to explode etc. etc. and life was suposedly caused by reactions between lightning and chemicals in the water

that covers the "creation" and "life" arguments

as for religions, i think almost all religions these days are pretty much bull shit, with bits of good and/or true stuff mixed in, but its like a turd wit peanuts in it, the bull shit ruins what would otherwise be something good

if i had to choose a religion satanism would be it, not "devil-worship" stereotyped satansim but real satanism

http://www.freewebs.com/eridu666/Origins.html

im not sure about this stuff about satan being our "creator" but the rest of it is 100% logical (although aliens? seems weird but logical)

[wrasler]

that doesn't cover jack shit. where did the "pure energy and mass" originate? if you don't believe a supreme being created it, how did it come into being? how can you prove my belief isn't true? were you there or did you know someone who was? please enlighten me.

[wrasler]

in your long 15 years on the planet, what has made you the authority on what is true/bs in religions? have you taken any religious studies courses or is this information you have recycled from your parents?

[hewhispers]

hewhispers,
sorry to say this, but "right-wing" has nothing to do with intelligent design. many faiths have believed in a creator long before darwin hypothesized the theory of evolution in the 1800s.

Here's some information for you wrasler.

Intelligent design (ID) leading proponents are all affiliated with the Discovery Institute. The institute is headed by Bruce Chapman.

Chapman was born in 1940 in Evanston, Illinois. After graduating from Harvard University in 1962, he served in the U.S. Air Force Reserves, and worked as an editorial writer for the New York Herald Tribune. In 1966 Chapman moved to Seattle and wrote a book entitled The Wrong Man in Uniform, arguing against conscription.

Chapman became active in politics through the Seattle Young Republicans, and became a member of the United States Republican Party. He was elected to the Seattle City Council in 1971. In 1975, he was appointed Secretary of State for the state of Washington. He campaigned for the office of Governor of Washington in 1980, but ultimately did not win the Republican nomination.

Chapman was appointed by President Ronald Reagan to the position of Director of the United States Census Bureau and served in that role from 1981 until 1983. Between 1983 and 1985 he was Deputy Assistant to President Reagan and Director of the White House Office of Planning and Evaluation. From 1985 to 1988 he served in the appointed position of United States Ambassador to the United Nations Organizations in Vienna. His portfolio included nuclear proliferation, refugees, economic development, and the control of narcotics.

From 1988 to 1990 Chapman was a fellow at the Hudson Institute, a conservative think tank. In 1990 , he left Hudson and founded the Discovery Institute. The institute is best known as the hub of the intelligent design movement,[2] and also focuses on a broad range of issues, including transportation and international cooperation in the Cascadia region.

Chapman is a Roman Catholic.

[mrdevious]

that doesn't cover jack shit. where did the "pure energy and mass" originate?

Where did this incredible and infinite creator come from? Same problem, but you can't logically just pick the answer that you like.



if you don't believe a supreme being created it, how did it come into being?

Right here is the biggest logical fallacy behind creationism. Your only answer is "how did it come into being?". That is not an answer, it's a question. You can't then just pick the first answer your mind can comprehend just because you can't think of a better one. If society accumulated all it's knowledge that way, we'd have never come to where we are in the sciences and other forms of knowledge. God is only a hypothesis, a proposal for an explanation as to the complexity of the universe and its creation. The simple fact that we don't have all the answers yet does not mean you can declare a prior hypothesis as truth simply because we haven't yet come to certain understandings. Humanity throughout the ages has accredited thunder to blacksmith gods, sickness to demons, stars to pinprick holes in a blanket over the sky, fire as a migical gift from one of the Roman gods (I forget which one), and so on and so on... But once we dscovered the real answers to these questions, such as chemical reactions creating thunder, we do what we have always done; move on to the next phenomenon we can't explain and provide an easy answer to declare the truth.

God fits fine as an explanation as to how existence came into being (well actually, there are some obvious flaws). But you, me, or anybody could conjure up infinite explanations as to the nature of this existence. It is only when one explanation becomes indoctrinated within the masses that it is viewed as the only acceptable one. The universe is not a simple place with simple explanations that any 5 year old could understand. We've come a long way, and we have a longer way to go. Intelligent reasoning, often working against indoctrinated coercion from religious figureheads, is what has lead to our rise in understanding of this world and our place in it. I would rather we continue to seek answers, perpetuate growth in thought, and strive to become the beings that control and understand this reality, rather than omitting it to the higher universal dictator because it's the easiest answer, and only one we have at the time.


how can you prove my belief isn't true?

That's irrelevant. Scientists don't create theories by proving that every hypothesis isn't true. Politicians aren't justified in launching wars because "prove that they're not producing nuclear weapons". I don't kill a random person the street and say to the judge "prove that he wasn't going to attack me". It's up to you to prove that god does exist, otherwise you're just making a claim.


were you there or did you know someone who was? please enlighten me.

I sure wasn't. And neither were you. Hence why your believe in god, or my belief in the invisible space jellyfish, are both invalid. A belief does not have validity just because you believe it. It has validity when you can support it with evidence and critical reasoning. This still all goes back to the creationist fallacy, "you don't have answer, so that makes my belief right".

[divestoned]

God was origianally made-up by power hungry ppl as a way to control others,and endorsed by empoverished ppl who need to believe there is something better for them in the future. (like the boogy man story was designed to scare kids straight). The believers of god are weak minded followers who fear there mortality. Apparently sodomy is a sin, so i ask you why do the lords priest molest so many alter boys?God told me that all of his followers should send me money,if not your all going to hell.

[greendove]

I certainly am not filing all that is not known under God.
My point was that life came from non-life.
That to me this is the only true miracle that I can think of.
Maybe one day man will be able to something so amazing.
I tend to doubt it.

The whole Intelligent Design theory is a sad attempt by Christians/right wing to insert God into evolution.

And I am certainly not trying to prove that there isn't a God. I'm just stating that the particular "proof" you were trying to offer isn't any sort of proof at all.

[wrasler]

in response to your first statement regarding intelligent design. what i am saying is that it isn't some new theory that popped up recently. "creationism" has been viewed as the explanation for the origin of life for a very long time. consider the famous scopes trial in the beginning of the nineteenth century. it was over a teacher who went against the rules of the time and taught evolution as opposed to what was required: creationism (which, in case you didn't know, is the same thing as intelligent design).
i want you to understand that i am not trying to discredit your beliefs as you are trying so hard to mine. i was simply asking questions. i also know that we will not convince each other one way or the other and have reached an impasse in the argument.
finally, is it really that hard to believe there is something bigger than yourself out there?

[peacetrain]

No one can ever disprove God. That doesn't mean the likelihoods of there being or not being a god are equal.

For instance, no one can disprove that I'm going to win the lottery today. That doesn't increase the likelihood of me actually winning the lottery.

Although we can never rule out the Abrahamic God of Jewish, Christian, and Islamic faiths...we can rule it out as much as any of the other Gods various cultures have worshiped throughout history. Indeed, Mount Olympus is just as unlikely as the Christian Heaven. There's just as much evidence for both.

Intelligent design is bullshit. The Bible is bullshit. Neither should come anywhere close to a school.

Just READ the Bible...that will give you more proof of it's bullshittiness than any atheist could. Just try reading it. Not just Psalms, either. Or if you're not reading it literally, how do you pick and choose what's right? Why not cut out the middle man?

[mrdevious]

I can't believe I even fell back into arguing this. Lets all just consider:

1. Some may believe god is a diety of sorts, the ultimate intelligent ruler of existence.

2. Some may believe that the closest thing to a true "god" is an ultimate, pure form of enlightenment. Unobstructed, clear perception.

3. God may exist, as a creation of our united consciousness through a common belief.

4. Some may have given up any such search, but still want to understand this universe as much as possible, and find the right answers for themselves and us all.

Now lets consider, has any of this debate brought you, or anyone else, closer to any of the above definitions of god? Has it spawned more negativity, or possitivity? Is anyone ever convinced by their opponent? Has this whole debate, the same one that's been done 10,000 times, made any of us closer or more understanding of each other?

I think this whole debate is overdone, and counterproductive to all our well-being. We've all contributed to this counter-productive activity, myself included (especially myself). Maybe there's more interesting and explorative courses of action we could be pursueing together, rather than trying to accomplish goals by fighting each other. I should have learned this lesson long ago, it would make me happy if somebody else did too.

[hewhispers]

And I am certainly not trying to prove that there isn't a God. I'm just stating that the particular "proof" you were trying to offer isn't any sort of proof at all.

I am a bit lost here, Greendove.
What proof did I offer here?

Proof? Now that would some trick, huh?

[hewhispers]

in response to your first statement regarding intelligent design. what i am saying is that it isn't some new theory that popped up recently. "creationism" has been viewed as the explanation for the origin of life for a very long time. consider the famous scopes trial in the beginning of the nineteenth century. it was over a teacher who went against the rules of the time and taught evolution as opposed to what was required: creationism (which, in case you didn't know, is the same thing as intelligent design).
i want you to understand that i am not trying to discredit your beliefs as you are trying so hard to mine. i was simply asking questions. i also know that we will not convince each other one way or the other and have reached an impasse in the argument.
finally, is it really that hard to believe there is something bigger than yourself out there?

Wrasler...Intelligent Design is not part of my beliefs. My point, which I think was missed, is that the ID platform that has been getting some attention the last few years is part of an attempt by the right wing of America to introduce God into science. Thats it. Do I think they created the theory? Or course not, but they are behind the push.

My last post was to show you that there is indeed a link between the ID platform and the US right-wing. Nothing more.

[bavet]

I always stay out of debates on God for one good reason and that is. Mpst people have their minds made up and so it's all pontless. You can say Prove God exists and I can say Prove God doesn't exist. For me God is as real as my dad is. If you really want to know God, you need to form a relationship with Him through Jesus. Spend time in prayer, spend time reading His Word, spend time learning and talking about Him with others. Men are sinners, they will always fall. For anyone that has a true desire to Know God and learn, I'll be glad to answer what I can and disscuss things.

As far as the knock knock cult people that come around, hehe I invite them in and like to set them stright. There are many sites that list verses and tell how to deal with them and show them the errors in their false doctrins.

[Pass That Shit]

Keep in mind that faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God.

[JeenYuss]

Keep in mind that faith comes by hearing, hearing the word of God.

tell me exactly how you "HEAR" god? god isnt shit but a thought/idea/etc. most ppl that beleive in god an have faith are jus ppl that do good but dont really beleive in karma so they hafta have suttin to say causes good things to happen ta them or w/e

i beleive in god, hes just an ASS HOLE he aint really gave me shit in my life, everything i got i was either born wit or got my damn self

[peacetrain]

Ok, but here's the thing...and it can be applied to both the universe as a whole, and the Earth specifically.

Before there was something, there was nothing.
Thats some transition.
Even with the big bang.
What was before that?
A big rock?
And before that?

And then what about Earth.
Initally it was lifeless. At least thats the assumption.
And then :POOF: there was life. :birthday:

Now thats some trick.
Agreed?

God doesn't solve this problem. The something-from-nothing debate can be used from either side. If you want to go by the logic that something can't come from nothing, how do you explain God...besides removing him from logic, which is undebatable. So surely we must all accept that something is here, because we're sitting here talking about it...therefore either:
1. Something did come from nothing.
2. Something was always there.

...more and more I've been thinking, like many, that religiousity/mysticism is something humans evolved to give them peace. Whether it be through memes, genes, or what have you...and only those who are capable of sustaining their peace without believing in a God, can.

For instance, I find more peace in the fact that there isn't a heaven/hell. Sure, a second, eternal life would be fantastic (which is why it strikes me as something humans invented). But at least I don't have to walk around with a giant surveillance camera in the sky following me. I've been able let go of a lot of guilt since I've become an atheist, and reaffirm that I am a good person because I want to be...for no other reason.

[hewhispers]

God doesn't solve this problem. The something-from-nothing debate can be used from either side. If you want to go by the logic that something can't come from nothing, how do you explain God...besides removing him from logic, which is undebatable. So surely we must all accept that something is here, because we're sitting here talking about it...therefore either:
1. Something did come from nothing.
2. Something was always there.


I am not suggesting that God is the answer on how it all started.
But you are not the only one who thought I sided with God for an answer.
I need to phrase my comments better I suppose.

My amazement was only that the Earth was at one point lifeless.
To move from innate to organic is a miracle, at least in Vegas odds.
Some want to chalk that up to God, so be it for them.
Who am I to dance on their faith?

[peacetrain]

Sorry that I implied your beliefs! Usually people who can't fathom the idea of a Big Bang explain it with God...my bad.

The Christian Logic: If I can't explain or understand something (evolution/big bang/the universe/etc)...it must be God. It encouarages people not to think any further about the matter. "I can't explain it therefore I never can explain it therefore its God"...and I think thinking is good!

But yeah I agree with you...it is amazing that we're here...and conscious of so much, too! Blows me away daily.

[Moose101]

Does god love us? In every religion involving god I've heard of there are rules, or laws of god. To love us he'd have to trust us. Trust doesn't require laws and rules. In fact to create these laws and rules you would corrupt trust. Can they coexist without damaging eachother? No.

[N3D FLANDERS]

they say that because they have nothing else in the foarm of argument
if they said "you just have to believe" with anything else it would be shot down

Atheism ftw

[Gatekeeper777]

Ok here is my point of view. Sorry folks there is no GOD. He / she is a figment of imagination conjured up by primitive man to explain the unexplainable and was a quick answer. there are 200 billion stars in our galaxy there are over a million known galaxies with even more stars in them. Do you think that a alien 100 million light years away is worried about Jesus Or MOHAMAD? I doubt it. And with all those stars it's silly to think that earth is the only place for life humans are NOT that special, they just like to think they are.If you believe in God then you must believe in the Bible or TORA or KORAN or some other holy book. If thats the case you must believe the whole book, because once you start disbeliveing in one thing then you inject that a bible story is made up.......a faulsehood...... how can a God that hates sin and lies INSIPRE a book then fill it with lies? God didnt write the Bible .man did. it was a book INSPIRED by god written by an imperfect man.......... thus it by default is subject to imperfection.
Listen to me........... Keep smoken cuz when you draw your last Bong hit and close yur eyes forever. it is OVER!

[Pass That Shit]

How come you guys never talk about the things you agree with God? It seems like it's not about whether he exists, but rather that you want nothing to do with him. It's our choice and we'll have to live with that. Thank God that he allows us to choose.

God created a garden (is there a garden in any other planet?) and put man upon the earth (is there man outside of earth?). There are as many stars in the sky as the sand in the sea (Can you count them?). God created the evening and the morning (why do our days begin in the middle of the night?) God created a clock and hung it in the sky (if the sun never went down and it was always sunny, how would you keep track of time?)

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us"

[Gatekeeper777]

God created a garden (is there a garden in any other planet?) and put man upon the earth (is there man outside of earth?). There are as many stars in the sky as the sand in the sea (Can you count them?). God created the evening and the morning (why do our days begin in the middle of the night?) God created a clock and hung it in the sky (if the sun never went down and it was always sunny, how would you keep track of time?)

"

never been to another planet to prove or disprove a garden. I doubt there is mankind anywhere else, that would infer that hunamity is universal...(its not)
and your perspective is from a stance that there is a God.
We all have our own ideas on what is real. I will put my faith in science that can prove what its telling me with provable facts rather then beliveing just because i was told to.

If you beleive that then Belive me "the check is in the mail."

[Up In Smoke 420]

People just want something to have faith in.. It's funny how this will never end though we can never find out if there is a god or not. My views though I was raised Catholic got Confirmed and have never been to church since, I'm not a religious guy in any means. I mean I believe there's something out there but right now I'm confused. Not Catholic though that's for sure.

[nikweiser]

How come you guys never talk about the things you agree with God? It seems like it's not about whether he exists, but rather that you want nothing to do with him. It's our choice and we'll have to live with that. Thank God that he allows us to choose.

God created a garden (is there a garden in any other planet?) and put man upon the earth (is there man outside of earth?). There are as many stars in the sky as the sand in the sea (Can you count them?). God created the evening and the morning (why do our days begin in the middle of the night?) God created a clock and hung it in the sky (if the sun never went down and it was always sunny, how would you keep track of time?)

"For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us"

ok tell me how god created the sun? besides the whole fact how evolution and time have created our solar system and planets, along with the sun.

tell me how there isnt any other form of human life in the billions and billions of planets and solar systems and galaxies in our universe, then just the life thats on this one planet.

how did god tell us "ok, when the sun comes up, its morning time?" over time and humanity things adapted and they went out and hunted durring the day because it was bright out, by the sun that was made by evolution, not the light switch the big man turned on, then at night they couldnt see or hunt, and were tired from hunting.. its just logic, you got to have an open mind to these kind of things...

[Gatekeeper777]

gravity created the sun.its a multi- dimentional force.

Electrochemical bonding created the first self replicating DNA strand.....time did the rest. Science has recreated it in a lab. theres your proof. So are they Gods? Maybe we were put here billions of years ago by a race of aliens that are seeding the galaxywith DNA and they are now checking the crop.

where did the electricity come from.?
lightning into the allready ocean filled of basic components of life, such as carbon,salt,iron ect ect.

there are no humans elsewhere in the universe. Life on other planets would evolve differently.
there may be other life in the universe....maybe even intelligent life. but given the vast distances it may never be found.
Are we even listening with the right equipment?
If you said hello to a planet revolving around our nearest star Alpha centari (4.2 light years distant) it would take 8.4 years to get a response to your greeting. Considering the fact that humans have only recently had the techknowlogy to scan the stars and listen we still have 100 years to wait for an answer just in our galatic back yard before we can start to rule out that we are alone. at least on a galatic local scale.
but for a God to create an infinate space and put 100 billion,billion, trillion stars in it and only create life on one little spec is a waste of time and space.
And is entirely illogical. The earth is so insugnificant you cant even see it from Pluto even with a telescope earth looks like a spec from pluto. So whats so amazing about earth? life ! inteligent life? that remains to be seen. We have to wait and see if we blow our selves up or not.
Modern day scientist think there may be auqatic life under the the ice of Europa. Ask a science teacher or professor.

they can provide you with PROOF.