Which way is up?

[herbaltivo]

OK, I've done a TON of reading, more than I probably should...and I have a question that I haven't found a definitive answer to.

Once you've germinated the seeds and had them sprout, what is that white appendage sticking out of the seed, is it the root or is it the plant? Which end should be planted up? Does it even matter?

I've got 8 that germinated and they are in 2 gal containers already since I don't want to transplant. I know that I overwatered the hell out of the pots right after I planted the little sprouts, so they moved from 1/4 inch below the soil to way more than 1/2 inch (I am impatient when I can't see anything so I dug around for them to make sure they were still viable and they are all growing. I repositioned them so they were right below the surface of the soil again.

I already would do things differently, but this is a first time, learning experience.

I have 1 175w MH and another that needs a new ballast, so sometime in the next week or two I'll have a total of 350w MH. I built a medium sized closet in the garage and plan on a 24/0 veg cycle, mostly because it's cold where I live and I don't have good temperature control for the night-time cycle. I'll deal with that when I'm 12/12.

I'm growing in some soil with a reported ph of 5.5-6.5 on the container, with some very low nutes in the soil (I think).

0.14% N
0.09% Phos
0.02% Potash
0.25% Fe

I suppose that is too much info for the original question, but I'm happy to get suggestions.

Thanks!

Herbaltivo

[Villui]

tap root

[herbaltivo]

Thx dude!

[mc-blaze21]

the tap root should be faceing down but i guess u have all ready figured that one out now lol. any way the mh on its own should be enough for now but the more the merrier lol. is there no way u can move your grow inside to control the temps better coz wen u go 12/12 ur gonna run into problems. have you got any pic's then i can make some propper suggestions? hope its all going ok for you peace!!

[Abattoir Dream]

the taproot will go downwards whether you plant it upside down or not, and once its got a good place, it will push to seed upwards and off... good luck

[mc-blaze21]

i didnt know that ab's i thought the tap root had to be faceing down as it only has enough energy to push the seed up but i guess u learn summing new every day init nice one man!!

[herbaltivo]

I have 8 of 8 poking through the surface in one way or another. I'm sure that if I'd waited a few more days I'd have had the same result, but I have an impatient streak.

I do have some pics and will post some now. The first two will be of two of the sprouts just poking through the surface. The next one will be a close-up of the leaf development now, and the last two are the room, as much of it as I can get with this camera.

I have hot and cold water in the room, not tapped, but you'll see the copper running through there. Could this be used at some point or is the chlorine just too much. I'm using RO water from the refill can for the aquarium now.

Enjoy!

[herbaltivo]

I screwed up the attachments part. Better go blow up another bag...

[mc-blaze21]

looking gd man what sort of light's are u useing?and its probably me just being pickie and i do have o,c,d but i would sweep up in there any germ's or bacteria will cause u problem's down the line it's really important to keep every thing sterile in ur grow room like i say just probably me being pickie lol didnt mean no offence. but apart from that its all looking really gd might wanna get the temp's up a notch as well 69 i think is a bit too low if u can get the temp to about 78-80 ur all gd laters man take care and keep us up-dated peace"!!

[herbaltivo]

I need to sweep up in there, I was surprised by the speed of germination, so I was a day or two behind in finishing the room. That weird looking light is a 175w MH that I used to use with a marine reef aquarium. I got tired of all the algae and other issues (read:work) that went with the reef so I switched to just marine fish, so I have these 2 175w MH pendant lights and tons of bulbs so I'm just going to use them for now. One of the ballasts is bad, but I'm going to try to order a replacement today, so I should be able to veg under 350w.

My plan is to pick up a 400w hps for flowering cheap on eBay. If I got that light early would it screw things up to use it 24-7 too?

I can easily increase the temp in the room, but I read somewhere that a lower temp the first few days encourages female development. I'll probably crank it up tomorrow or the next day.

BTW, 7 of the 8 little sprouts are about 1" to 1&1/2" high right now, and those pics were taken yesterday. I'll take more in an hour or so.

Enjoy!

[Villui]

no , many people use hps for both veg and flowering

you might wana lower the light in a few days

[mc-blaze21]

i no man them little buggers can germ fast i had sum that popped in less than 24 hours. yh like villui said it should'nt cause u any problems switching from mh to hps on a 24 hr light cycle but wen u do get the hps the temps will probably go up as well so i would watch that but i guess it all depends on what the ventalation is like in ur room. ne way its all looking gd man well done!

[herbaltivo]

I've got another 175w MH needing a ballast so I'm trolling the internets now to try and find a kit, in the meantime here are a couple of pics.

I'm gonna start a real grow log soon (as soon as the forums seem stable again) and will keep pretty good track.

I'm planning on using the fox farms fertilizer set as there is a local retailer here, and here isn't really a very big place, so having that convenience makes using that stuff handy.

I'm almost more interested in photographing this process, at least it'll give me something to do with em while I wait...I have a buddy dropping off a set of lens extensions which will let me do more macro stuff early on.

[mc-blaze21]

all right man its looking gd so far. if there stretching a lil bit try and get a couple of cfl's in there as well might help u out abit till u get ur hps just a thought. yh i cant wait to see the pic quality wen u get them lenses. as for fert's fox farm are really gd so ive heard ne way getting to late for me ill catch up wit ya 2moro laters man peace!

[keeko]

the taproot will go downwards whether you plant it upside down or not, and once its got a good place, it will push to seed upwards and off... good luck



actually when i first started out i put the tap root facing up and it sprouted, i then had to replant it the right way, wasnt really a problem at all

[herbaltivo]

I ordered the replacement guts for my 175w MH today, expecting that next week. I'll be able to lower the lights a lot when I have two, so I'm sure that'll help with the stretching. One is 2" tall today, and it's only been 2 days.

[Splifted]

You can always pick up some CFLs for a couple bucks and put them about 1-2" inches above the tops of the seedlings to keep them short & happy. Fluorescents are your friend when it comes to starting seeds. You can keep them ridiculously close, and they put out almost no heat. After a couple weeks they'd appreciate the MH more. I'd probably keep the CFLs close and the MH higher up for a week or 2, then scrap the cfls and bring the MH down close.


Oh, and here are those 175watt MH ballast kits you were lookin for http://www.1000bulbs.com/products.php?cat=175-Watt-Metal-Halide-Ballast for like 40 bucks.


edit: er, you already got your MH ballast. Lol, i don't read thoroughly

[herbaltivo]

Yeah, I def have a stretching problem, some of them are almost 3" tall. I moved some of the containers around to stretch some of them back into shape, but I will be stopping by Home Depot today to get some CFL's and to figure out some kind of armature or way to mount them appropriately.

We'll see (in about an hour)

[Abattoir Dream]

actually when i first started out i put the tap root facing up and it sprouted, i then had to replant it the right way, wasnt really a problem at all


lol i dont even plant them a certain way up, just throw them in and wait a day...

btw its lookin good, but always keep cfls close, if your getting a hps, vegg with it too and use those cfls as side lighting...good luck

[Splifted]

Yeah, I def have a stretching problem, some of them are almost 3" tall. I moved some of the containers around to stretch some of them back into shape, but I will be stopping by Home Depot today to get some CFL's and to figure out some kind of armature or way to mount them appropriately.

We'll see (in about an hour)

You can pick up some of the clamp light fixtures while you're there. They're on the isle w/ the extension cords. Looks like a round metal reflector w/ a light socket on a cord.

[herbaltivo]

Yeah, my local home depot was pretty much out of those things, but these outdoor spike models will work for now, I'll figure out some other way to mount them to the container rather than staking them in the soil soon, but I wanted to deal with the stretching now.

Added 8 100w CFL's (1600 lumens each) in the various sockets. Threw in some pics to show the current configuration. Can't wait to get my other MH in there.

It's getting so bright in there now i have to wear sunglasses to look down at the plants. Good times!

[herbaltivo]

That makes 26,800 lumens in the room right now and when that ballast gets here next week look out we'll be over 40k lumens, which for like a hundred bucks total investment isn't bad. I can't wait to lower the metal halides, I'm sure that things will take off then.

[herbaltivo]

I only had a minute to take this, and the fan was still on, so the little sprouts were moving, so this is the only closeup that is in focus.

I have one sprout that was laying on its side this am, watered it (and the rest) and it seems to be returning to vertical.

QUESTION: if you look at my containers, you can see that there is an inch to and inch and a half of space i could fill with soil. Should I, given the stretching that has occurred? It seems like you can knock these sprouts over just by looking at them...

Thanks!

[mc-blaze21]

to deal with stretching u can plant up to the coytolodens i think thats spelt wrong lol but there the first leafs that came out of the seed and what u covered will turn to root it just gets rid of the stretching helps make tham more stable as well i hope that helps man peace!

[herbaltivo]

Yeah, I can't get them quite buried, but I think when I get home I'm going to add some soil up to 1/2" from the lip of the container. That'll at least give them some more support for now. They definitely seem to have stopped stretching, but they're already pretty darned tall compared to other examples I've seen online. Last thing I want them to do is fall over.

[dutch.lover]

i am answering your question about your fallen over sprout in this thread, cause you made it sound like you looked at this one more often. I think the seedling just fell over cause it was stretched out too much, and the stem was weak. put a small fan on them, and get more light on them. i propped my sprouts up with bobby pins when this happened to me (when i first started growing...not too long ago mind you). Also, I am going to suggest that you not water them every day, every second day would be fine, but make sure you water the entire container and not just around the sprout. If you only water right where the sprout is, the roots won't be encouraged to spread out to look for water. if you water the whole container, i think it would promote a better root system. Also, by watering everyday you run the risk of root rot or damping off (which someone mentioned in the other thread). If you are constantly keeping the stem of the plant wet, there is a really good chance it will rot and fall over. It doesn't look like this happened to yours as your plant still looks very much alive, but you were lucky. So keep your eye out for overwatering, k?

[herbaltivo]

OK, reading you loud and clear. Been doing 2 things totally wrong water wise.

I've been watering right over the sprout. Duh. One long, weak root.
I've been watering once a day at least, probably twice a day. I'll stop doing that.

I'll just give them a reasonable amount every other day, I'll get a soil water and ph meter online, if they don't have one at my local wildflower shop, which has lots of goodies including the fox farms fertilizers I plan on introducing on or around the 24th of jan.

I'm glad I didn't mess them up too badly right off the bat. I did fill the containers up to about 1/2" below the rim, as I read about burying the plant up to the small round initial leaves, which I wasn't able to reach on each plant but at least there will be more mass underground and will help to stabilize the plant, or at least I surmise it will.

I have a vornado fan blowing in the room not only to give the plants a breeze but also to keep my ballast which is on a high shelf, cool. It causes the plants to wiggle a bit. Nothing hurricane like.

I need ventilation. I can get the air from down low at the door threshold but I'm not sure how much of a strain that is going to put on the heating situation in the room as the surrounding garage is 40 degrees fahrenheit. It's cold here. The air coming in would be cold. I could steal warm air from a hole already existing from the kitchen into the veg area.

Thank you, thank you, thank all of you so much for your insight and attention, I truly do appreciate it.

[herbaltivo]

Some pic updates, day 7.

The first 2 are just good and happy, the third is the pic of the runt (which is actually one of the nicest looking right now) and the fourth is one that has some little browning on the tips of the 2 big pointy leaves (actual scientific terminology used there) :/

Any thoughts on the browning? I'm using this soil called Supersoil from Home Depot that has a ph reportedly in the 5.5-6.5 range and pretty minimal nutes (i think).

0.14% N
0.09% Phos
0.02% Potash
0.25% Fe

Any thoughts would be appreciated on the yellowing, or the growing...

[herbaltivo]

I went to bed last night with plants that had four leaves, minus the little round leaves, and I woke up to plants with 4 new little spikey leaves and a new leaf/stem in the center of some of them. I also noticed that the new bunch of leaves is associated with a node of leaves that seems to have moved upward like 5mm from the leaves below.

YEAH! Growth!

Now for the bummer. The ballast kit I received didn't work. Maybe I broke it, maybe it was broken when it was jammed into the tiny little box it was inserted into post manufacturing, but either way, I'm sad b/c I will be without my 2nd 175w MH. Oh well. Now to see how well the vendors return policy works.

Enjoy the pics.

[stinkyattic]

I like your setup so far with the individual cfls clamped to the pots!
I think you may have some trouble with pH down the line since the soil said it was 5.5-6.5 to START and chemical ferts can often cause pH to DROP over time, so monitor carefully for any changes/drift of the runoff pH!

[herbaltivo]

Thanks for the ph recommendation, I will be getting some kind of testing device when I get my fox farms products. Hopefully it'll test soil moisture too, as I have no idea when to water right now, and have settled into an every other day watering pattern.

The containers are 12 qts, so 3 gal, and I'm watering each container with 1 pt of RO water.

There are some new pics in a different thread asking about LST:

http://boards.cannabis.com/basic-growing/98874-time-lst.html

Thanks!

[herbaltivo]

Thought I'd just post the pics here since this is a mis-labeled grow log of sorts. Lotsa growth. :D :D :D

[stinkyattic]

oooooh the boards are making me maaad today... I just wrote you a long assed response and tried to post it and it got lost *poof!* fuckers
anyway..
-why RO water? ya dont need it... tap water has Ca... that will help your pH
-you should read the supercropping thread in advanced about starting out in smaller pots for efficiency next time
-your plants seem to be coming along pretty well
-not quite ready to lst IMO, wait until significant side growth develops
-if youre set on RO water you are going to need to addCalMag plus asap. RO is more for hydro peeps who need to maximize every ppm.
um i think that was all.

[herbaltivo]

OK, I'm not set on RO water at all, I was just using it as I own a RO unit for my saltwater aquarium, and I always keep like 15-30 gals on hand, and thought it would be good.

If I switch to tap water, I just need to leave it out overnight to get the chlorine to evaporate off, right?

I can definitely wait longer to LST, I was just getting antsy. I'll read that supercropping thread for sure.

Thanks for the insight, lord knows I don't have any yet...

[stinkyattic]

i don't know how chlorinated your tap water really is... i guess if you can SMELL it then you might want to leave it out, but I just use it straight and don't worry.
hey if you can keep saltwater fish happy, the ganj is NOTHING!!!!

[hemp69]

looks good.

[herbaltivo]

I had a little problem with some yellowing tips and brown spots appearing over the last few days...I think the plants were really hungry. I fed them big bloom and grow big today, and they liked it...

Macro shot of some of the top growth from today of one of the recently non-fasting plants.