My views on abortion, personal perspective.

[wayoftheleaf]

I am fairly sure I posted this before, but I had to leave and I couldn't check up on it, and I can't remember the post really so I am posting it again.


I was suppose to be born with spinal bifeda(sp?).
I am told that this is where your spine does not fully connect to your brain.
Apparently I had two months before I was to be born, and there was a one in two thousand chance I was going to be born normal.
My mom was surrounded by three doctors. She was sitting and they were standing around her. The room was small, barely big enough for two people. They were telling her, much more forcably than they should have been and also got exasperated enough to say it was downright stupid, that she needed to have an abortion. There was little to no chance I would be born normally. I would be born a vegatable, and never even know I was alive.

I was born two months later, a healthy boy.


I believe that the only reason that anyone should ever have an abortion is if the woman is a rape victim.

I firmly believe that if you make the decision to have sex then you deserve what happens.

If you decide to have sex and become pregnant, then you should either get with the man who done it, or make certain he pays child support.

The child did absolutly nothing. The mistake is your's and your partner's. Give the child up for adoption, but if you go up for an abortion then the doctor is a murderer, and and you are a co-conspirator.

This is not an opinion, this is a fact. A fetus is technically a living being. And by allowing it to be killed, you are a conspirator to it's murder.

None of this is based on religion, I am very agnostic. I believe that the bible is a possability, but at the same time nothing may be real.


All of this, besides murder, is my opinion. You may have your own opinion, but these are mine, respect my opinion's and i will respect yours. I will not condemn your opinions, as long as you do not condemn mine. Do not flame me, I will not flame you otherwise. Do not insult anyone on this thread, it is a discussion of my views and others. Do not threaten anyone on this thread, it is pointless and shows your own immaturity.

Post away.

[slipknotpsycho]

i don't agree, i think you're lucky to have been born normal, and your mom didn't get the abortion.. but i don't think it's fair to make any human being suffer just because the parents should be ready 'for whatever happens to them' it's just not right, the baby didn't ask to be born, (obviously) that's my thoughts on it...

[wayoftheleaf]

Well, that is true. But at the same time the baby didn't asked to have a chance at life then be killed.

After all, if your parents had an abortion then we wouldn't be talking right now would we?

[birdgirl73]

WayoftheLeaf, take a moment to notice that we have categories that are more suited to this topic than the main lounge. I'm moving this to Sexuality.

[wayoftheleaf]

You could consider this thread religious, sexual, political, or many other topics. Sexual being the least. If you wanted to move it somewhere it would have been more appropriate in politics, but considering the discussional value and it's spread across the many topics it is more suited to the lounge. Although due to the wide amount of views on it, the politics forum could also be more suited. Yet the sexuality board is not the one.

[birdgirl73]

Well, Leaf, when you're the mod, you can move it where you want to. Until then, I'm putting it where our other abortion-related threads go.

[wayoftheleaf]

Just explaining my oppinion on it is all.

[someuser]

I was going to say something about it too but I learned a long time ago not to piss off a Texas chick :D

[birdgirl73]

I hear you. I seriously do! It could go in several categories. But we do tend to keep abortion-related threads in here because it's a fairly mature topic, and Leaf, you did mention sex, sexual consequences, rape, etc. It works here with what we hope is a more adult audience than some of the other areas.

Yeah, Someuser, we Texas chicks are dangerous aren't we? LOL!

[wayoftheleaf]

Yah true, but I did take it into account the catagories. I never really noticed abortion threads before, Noticed people saying they are gonna have one or thinking about it, i could tell that went here. Anyhow, It isn't a big deal. Might as well not make a mountain from a mole hill.

[birdgirl73]

No mountain, hun. Just one of the judgement calls that we face.

Hey! Here's link about spina bifida in case it interests you. It's not about disconnection of the brain and spine as much as it is incomplete development of the spine and neural tube. I'm glad your mom carried her pregnancy to term and glad you were born healthy.
http://www.ninds.nih.gov/disorders/spina_bifida/spina_bifida.htm

[wayoftheleaf]

Nah i meant i didn't wanna make a mole hill turn into a mountain lol.

and I remember my mom said something like this, but not the name.


myelomeningocele, the severest form, in which the spinal cord and its protective covering (the meninges) protrude from an opening in the spine;

[MastaChronic]

abortion should be open to any women that wants it, plain and simple.
that is my opinion.
i wish the world had an occupancy limit, we have 6,000,000,000+ people on this world, the planet is over crowded enough as it is.
im not entirely sure, but i think china has a family size limit....or was that someplace else?
this is a good idea.

[someuser]

Yeah, Someuser, we Texas chicks are dangerous aren't we? LOL!

:clap:

Yes ma'am.

[someuser]

I'm pro-choice but not because I'm a woman's right advocate... Basically, if you outlaw abortion it isnt going to stop people from terminating unwanted pregnancies, that's the bottom line.

The middle-class and poor will bear the biggest blunt turning to less safe and perhaps out-right dangerous forms of abortion while the rich will just fly off to another country where is is legal.

The solution to abortion in my opinion is dropping this traditional fundamentalist Christian mentality that preaches abstinence despite studies showing the % of people refraining from sex before marriage is shrinking all the time. We need to drop this puritanical view on sex and start teaching safe sex to our children at a young age and we need to provide low cost birth control to all men and women so that unwanted pregnancy dont occur as frequently.

In the end though abortion is a very tough thing to do... Even if a woman doesnt realize it in the short-term the decision almost always comes back to haunt them sometime later in life... The fact is you are killing a potential child that you would be the mother/father to and anyone who has kids knows that thought, as a parent, is very hard to wrap your mind around...

My heart goes out to the young girls who dont know any better and did what they felt they had to do... It's one of those things you can never undo and it sticks with you for the rest of your life. And Gods knows I'm not a religious person or even a kid person... I think that is why so many people can be so fanatic about being pro-life... But in the end, life isnt always b/w and sometimes you got to make TOUGH decisions... I just sooner see that number of men and women who have to go through that process decrease through early education and cheap and easily accessible b/c.

[Way2many]

Pro choice do what you wanna do i mean think about if you were a 14 year old girl and having a baby your life from then on would be hard, life is hard already. i think maybe if your over 18 abortion should be illegal cause atleast your old enough to support yourself.

[chris40]

I am fairly sure I posted this before, but I had to leave and I couldn't check up on it, and I can't remember the post really so I am posting it again.


I was suppose to be born with spinal bifeda(sp?).
I am told that this is where your spine does not fully connect to your brain.
Apparently I had two months before I was to be born, and there was a one in two thousand chance I was going to be born normal.
My mom was surrounded by three doctors. She was sitting and they were standing around her. The room was small, barely big enough for two people. They were telling her, much more forcably than they should have been and also got exasperated enough to say it was downright stupid, that she needed to have an abortion. There was little to no chance I would be born normally. I would be born a vegatable, and never even know I was alive.

I was born two months later, a healthy boy.
I'm glad you were born healthy.

I believe that the only reason that anyone should ever have an abortion is if the woman is a rape victim.

I firmly believe that if you make the decision to have sex then you deserve what happens.
Way to make sex sound like a game of Russian roulette.

If you decide to have sex and become pregnant, then you should either get with the man who done it, or make certain he pays child support.
Because that is so easy these days...

The child did absolutly nothing. The mistake is your's and your partner's. Give the child up for adoption, but if you go up for an abortion then the doctor is a murderer, and and you are a co-conspirator.


This is not an opinion, this is a fact.No, it's an opinion. The supreme court decides what is murder and what isn't. A fetus is technically a living being. And by allowing it to be killed, you are a conspirator to it's murder.
Animals are living beings too, I guess your big mac is murder too. Even the cannabis plant was living, are you a murder for lightin up a spliff?


None of this is based on religion, I am very agnostic. I believe that the bible is a possability, but at the same time nothing may be real.


All of this, besides murder, is my opinion. You may have your own opinion, but these are mine, respect my opinion's and i will respect yours. I will not condemn your opinions, as long as you do not condemn mine. Do not flame me, I will not flame you otherwise. Do not insult anyone on this thread, it is a discussion of my views and others. Do not threaten anyone on this thread, it is pointless and shows your own immaturity.

Post away.


Just my thoughts on this....

[AlwaysBlazed]

Look, if you want to terminate a child you don't just do it for the hell of it. I'm tired of anti-abortionists going on "how would the child feel?" yeah, it wouldn't because it's not even born yet. It is irresponsible though to rely on an abortion when having sex though. We need to make it a pain in the ass to have an abortion so people rely on it less.

[slipknotpsycho]

Look, if you want to terminate a child you don't just do it for the hell of it. I'm tired of anti-abortionists going on "how would the child feel?" yeah, it wouldn't because it's not even born yet. It is irresponsible though to rely on an abortion when having sex though. We need to make it a pain in the ass to have an abortion so people rely on it less.

for alot of women, it already is a 'pain in the ass' with the emotional baggage that comes with it and what not... true there are some women out there who could care less, but most, have atleast some emotional trauma from the entire thing... putting more red tape on it, would probably end up screwing over the wrong people in the end, those who actually need it, but for some reason or not, can't get through the red tape to even get it...

personally, i actually wish abortion had never even or never will of been thought of, but it has, and it's here now... there's no taking it back... but honestly it's causing way too many problems, too much controversy... it's just giving us (people) one more thing to fight and bicker about.... and when you think of the 1,000's or more other reasons we already had pre-abortion, we really didn't need any more... but like i said, it's here now and we can't take back the discovery of it... so let the people who need it take advantage of it...

if you're going out and fucking, having unprotected sex, and basicly just throwing the dice on getting pregnant, you deserve to have to have the kid... i honestly don't feel it's fair or right for those people to go and say they don't want to have a kid and have it aborted... no matter how much emotional baggage might come from it....

[wayoftheleaf]

No chris40, it is murder. And I don't eat at any fast food resteraunts.

I occasionally eat at real resteraunts that I (even though i know it is a mistaken believe) believe to be safe. I eat at home town resteraunts.

Either way, the supreme court doesn't decide anything, morality of human beings does.

If there is a great chance that the woman would die, then yes I would support her decision in an abortion. If my girlfriend would die from having a kid, I would ask her to get an abortion. If she wanted to have the kid anyway, I would respect her decision. We have safe sex, she is on the pill and I always use a condom.

And yes it is fairly easy for you to know who the dad is unless the woman is a complete whore, sleeping with many men whom she does not know.

If you know the name of the father, even if he denies it you can get a court order for a blood test, then the system will force him to pay child support.

[dutch.lover]

I have many views on abortion, I am sort of on the fence about it, leaning towards pro-life however.

What I feel about abortion is that it should only be done in extreme circumstances such as: when the woman is raped, or the woman's health is endangered if she were to carry the baby to term.

However, when I think about it from a purely logical circumstance, feelings aside, I can totally understand why many women get abortions. If they're young, not in a financially viable situation, or don't want to bring a baby into their current lifestyle (whether that is an unstable family life or in the middle of school or a career, etc).

I think that my opinion on abortion may change, if I ever got pregnant, and I think that is an important thing to consider. It is easy to take a stance on this issue, but until someone is in the position to choose to abort a pregnancy or not, that's when the real feelings would come out, IMO. If I did get pregnant now (I am only 19), I would probably consider abortion more seriously. I guess what I am trying to say is that it is easy to voice an opinion on this issue but when it comes down to it, it is nearly impossible to draw a final/unchanging conclusion on abortion unless you have been in the position of considering an abortion.

[dutch.lover]

I also have a feeling that this topic is going to end up in a debate about when a person becomes a person (ie, when sperm meets egg, when implantation occurs, when the baby is born, etc); and I think we should stay away from that. It is hugely debated, and I don't think anyone is in a position to really answer that question. If anyone wants to talk about the 'murder' of a baby/fetus, they should not state things as fact, because I don't think even the scientific community has a definite answer for when a sperm and an egg become a person.

[wayoftheleaf]

I don't know when the fetus becomes a person, but when you are the size of a pea, not just one part of you, I mean when your entire body is the size of a pea, you have a heart beat. At this moment you are a living being.


After all when you don't have a heart beat that counts for being dead doesn't it?

[dutch.lover]

that does sound logical, but like i said, not even the scientific community has an answer to when a person becomes a person. i personally feel that the sperm/egg becomes a person when implantation occurs. that's when the embryo begins being nourished by the mother and the cells begin dividing rapidly. the more radical groups of people (often religious) even argue that the sperm/egg becomes a person when they meet- therefore they consider the morning after pill PlanB to be a form of abortion. others, like yourself, think the person is a person when a heartbeat is present, or when the baby is capable of independance outside of the womb. anyways, we can totally discuss this- i just don't think anyone should present anything as fact- since nothing has been proven anyways.

[harris7]

There is no point in discussing when a fetus or embryo becomes a human.
There is no answer, anyone who asserts and answer is just stating their opinion.

This is a paradigmatic example of the “paradox of the Heap”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_the_heap

Everyone agrees that a fetus the day b4 birth is a human, and
Everyone agrees that a zygote (the first cell egg+sperm) isn’t a human
So when does it become a human?
Never, there is no point when it does. But it does.
It’s a paradox, philosophers have looked at this for a long time.
So have scientists. There is no biological indicator of being “human”

[wayoftheleaf]

I didn't say that at that stage your human

I said at that stage you are alive.

[dutch.lover]

well if you want to get technical... the simple fact that cells are dividing proves life. from zygote to embryo- there is life. cells are living. so you are living far before you ever have a heartbeat.

and if you aren't a "human" at that stage, what are you? just because you don't have a heartbeat doesn't mean you are a sheep or a crocodile. we are always humans, we just aren't necessarily always PEOPLE.

[baisez le monde.]

well if you want to get technical... the simple fact that cells are dividing proves life. from zygote to embryo- there is life. cells are living. so you are living far before you ever have a heartbeat.

and if you aren't a "human" at that stage, what are you? just because you don't have a heartbeat doesn't mean you are a sheep or a crocodile. we are always humans, we just aren't necessarily always PEOPLE.


Just because there are living cells, and they are human cells, doesn't really make it an actual human life. Can those cells feel pain? Can those cells THINK? Can those cells feel emotion? Do those cells even know they are there?

Of course not, because at that point, no brain is present. No heart, no organs. If you lopped off your finger, the cells would still be alive for a bit, and they are human cells, but does that make a severed finger a human??? No, because it doesn't have thoughts or feelings and if you stabbed that finger again it wouldn't feel a thing. It lacks a brain and heart and other organs which are essential to living. Once cut off from its life source(YOU), it won't be able to live very long at all. And thus the same with a clump of multiplying baby cells smaller than the size of a grain of rice.

[dutch.lover]

being human is a genetic thing. a severed finger isn't A human, but it is human.

we aren't debating whether or not something is human. we are debating whether or not something is a PERSON- which is really what you are talking about when you are talking about having viable organs, and having thoughts and feelings- right?

[dutch.lover]

you said "Once cut off from its life source(YOU), it won't be able to live very long at all." therefore I guess you would fall into the category of people who belive that a fetus is a person when it is potentially viable outside of the womb.

[harris7]

Just because there are living cells, and they are human cells, doesn't really make it an actual human life. Can those cells feel pain? Can those cells THINK? Can those cells feel emotion? Do those cells even know they are there?



yes it does. It dosn't make it a person.What makes a "human life" is a live cell with 46 chromosomes.

your talking about what makes a person

[baisez le monde.]

The essential part of being a person is EMOTION. And I went in to all that about fingers and whatnot to explain that its NOT possible for a clump of cells to feel any emotion, may those cells be a detached finger or a zygote on the uteran wall. It's just not possible! You need a brain for emotion and a brain is something those cells do not have.

[harris7]

The debate is about when does the mass of cells become a person.
I apologize for using Human b4 I meant person

It doesn’t matter if it is alive. Humans don’t care about life, we only care about ourselves.

That’s why pro life’ers are so opposed to killing even 16 human cells. They believe in their own superiority (or at least they want to). Do you see any of these people getting upset that someone killed a fly (thousands of cells) or a cow for food (billions of cells).
No you don’t, it’s because people don’t care about life. That is why we are not debating life.

We are debating the one thing humans care about, Human life.

[harris7]

The essential part of being a person is EMOTION. And I went in to all that about fingers and whatnot to explain that its NOT possible for a clump of cells to feel any emotion, may those cells be a detached finger or a zygote on the uteran wall. It's just not possible! You need a brain for emotion and a brain is something those cells do not have.

you realize that you are trying to argue with someone that you agree with?

[baisez le monde.]

yes it does. It dosn't make it a person.What makes a "human life" is a live cell with 46 chromosomes.

your talking about what makes a person

If everyone understands what I am saying, then why the need to correct me?!!

[baisez le monde.]

you realize that you are trying to argue with someone that you agree with?


I'm not really arguing. Just talking. Rambling.

[dutch.lover]

haha just trying to clear things up i guess. once somebody mentioned the word "human" instead of "person" it caused some pretty bad confusion.

[slipknotpsycho]

since when did the argument/debate go from whether aborting a person/future person to when technically a person is alive or not?? look you can't put labels on it, either way, some day (unless something goes wrong karma forbid <i don't believe in god>) that will be a person... i think people are trying to get too technical with it... it's either right to kill a person or it's not... until scientists can prove at what point an embreo <sp??> or zygote or whatever, is capable of conscience thought, it shouldn't matter what stage a pregnancy is at... it's either wrong, or it's right.... stop trying to make it so technical...

[halo]

I agree with you way of the leaf. And basically for the same reasons. Most people say that abortion should be ok in rape. And i agree with that to to an extent. But the saddest thing is that rape victims only account for about 1% of abortions. The majority of abortions are done out of conveinience. Its truly sad.

[wayoftheleaf]

i read the thread about the thirteen year old girl getting an abortion with the permission of a judge.

She was in state custody.

But if she was my kid i'd have locked her in her room and sent food and water through a flap until she came to her senses.

If my daughter(if i hever have one)ever got an abortion, As soon as she hit 18 i can't say I would disown her. I know that the love of your kid is (for some people) beyond any love you have ever experienced before. So I can't say that I would do that. But I feel like I would.

I am seriously considering creating a bomb shelter and living under ground with my wife and kids until we all die.

Just seems better than the world corrupting another generation.

Of course I would have a giant grow op.

[MastaChronic]

back when these battles were first being joined, the religious fanatics realized that 'anti-abortion' sounded negative and lacked emotional power. sp they decided to call themselves 'pro-life'. pro-life not only made them appear virtuous, it had the additional advantage of suggesting that their opponents were anti-life, and, therefore, pro-death. they also came up with a lovely variation to get you all warm inside: pro-family.
well, the left wing didnt want to sound anti-life or pro-death and they knew 'pro-abortion' wasnt what they needed, so they decided on on 'pro-choice'. that completed the name game and gave the world the now classic struggle: pro-choice vs. pro-life. the interesting part is that the words arent even opposites. but there they are, hangin out together, bigger than life.
then theres the fetus-unborn child argument. even leaving aside my personal feelings, the semantics alone are fun to unravel. to my way of thinking, whatever it is, if its unborn, its not a child. a child has already been born; thats what makes it a child. a fetus is not a child, because it hasnt been born yet. thats why its called a fetus. you can call it an unborn fetus if you want (its redundant), but you cant call it an unborn child. because-not to belabor this-to be a child, it has to be born. remember? the word 'unborn' may sound wonderful to certain people, but it doesnt tell you anything. you could say a volkswagen is unborn. but what does it mean?
the fanatics have another name for fetuses. they call them 'pre-born'. now were getting creative. if you accept pre-born, i think you would say that, at the moment of birth, we go instantly from being pre-born to being pre-dead. makes sense, doesnt it? technically, were all pre-dead. although, if you think about it even harder, the word pre-dead probably be best reserved for describing stillborn babies. the post-born pre-dead.
by the way, i think the reason conservatives want all these babies to be born is that they simply like the idea of birth. thats why so many of them have been 'born again'. they cant get enough of it.

courtesy of george carlin-when will jesus bring the pork chops?