If God is real, why are there atheists?

[Oneironaut]

The biggest problem with the God hypothesis, so far as I can tell, is accounting for the fact that there is absolutely no concrete evidence for God anywhere. My question is: what kind of God would set things up that way? Why would God create a universe in which it is possible to be an atheist, if he wants us to believe in him?

There are a four ways of explaining this that I can think of:

(1) There is a God, but he doesn't want anybody to believe in him.
(2) There is a God, but he doesn't care whether or not we believe in him, and doesn't care about the feelings of those who are desperately trying to find out for sure whether he is real.
(3) There is a God, and he wants us to believe in him, but for some reason he doesn't like people who can only be convinced by logic and evidence, preferring those who take things on blind faith.
(4) There is no God.

Of the four options, number 4 seems to me to be the most logical. I just can't fathom why a God would create the universe and humanity and everything, then fail to reveal himself, and sit idly by watching as people argue and kill each other over their various religious beliefs. God could easily settle the whole matter with one grand miracle, telling us which (if any) of the world's religions are correct, or at least giving us some kind of hint. If there is a God out there, he just doesn't seem to give a shit about what we think or do down here.

[Polymirize]

The biggest problem with the God hypothesis, so far as I can tell, is accounting for the fact that there is absolutely no concrete evidence for God anywhere. My question is: what kind of God would set things up that way? Why would God create a universe in which it is possible to be an atheist, if he wants us to believe in him?

There are a four ways of explaining this that I can think of:

(1) There is a God, but he doesn't want anybody to believe in him.
(2) There is a God, but he doesn't care whether or not we believe in him, and doesn't care about the feelings of those who are desperately trying to find out for sure whether he is real.
(3) There is a God, and he wants us to believe in him, but for some reason he doesn't like people who can only be convinced by logic and evidence, preferring those who take things on blind faith.
(4) There is no God.


I'd say there's always the possibility that god in some way exists, but in order to allow people to be free can't go about revealing himself. If you knew god existed you couldn't really believe in him. You'd know. Empirical knowledge is very different from belief, but maybe you need both. Maybe god made us not to be perfect but rather to be human.

I'd also suggest the possibly that even if god is simply created by man that doesn't really invalidate the concept.
Do you think its even possible to believe in anything larger or greater than yourself?

[Matt the Funk]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.

That, and he is just testing us.

[Herbal]

That, and he is just testing us.

Kinda like a crazy girl does with her games?

hmmmm... is it possible god is bipolar too? *smokes a bowl and thinks about it*

[Hamlet]

Yeah, that one always bugged me too. "Wait a minute. I don't have to 'believe' there is a President of the United States! Why do you have to 'believe' in a God?"

When you would ask a fellow believer the answers got pretty ambiguous like the ones posted here. Usually accompanied by a scowl that let you know it was something you weren't supposed to question.

But the God arguement here always centers around the Judeo-Christian interpretation of God. You could probably add a few more choices to your list if you were to think about it.

5) There is a God, but he's really not all that powerful. He can set a Universe in motion like a kid with a chemistry set, but can't really control the details when the experiment takes off. <--this one fits the Biblical God if you think about it. Adam and Eve doing what they're not supposed to; the devil rebeling and starting a war in heaven; God always having to interceed and fix his mistakes. Very similar to the greek concepts and stories of Gods and Godesses.

6) There there could be an 'Intelligent Designer' but it is not really a 'God'. Maybe it's just a program running on some superbeings entertainment center, or a Superconsciousness permeating everything but so far removed from what we can conceive of, and think of as to what constitutes 'intelligence' and 'consciousness' that interaction and detection is an impossibility for us.

This list could get really big. And all the Bible God arguments are so worn out they're not even interesting any more. Expanding your list could be though, ..interesting that is. It might even take the discussion into the realm of spirituality instead of tired old theological arguments.

[LIP]

There is no God. We [Humans] created him, and he is nothing more than a figment of our imaginations.

The bible is a story, it's a book, and because it's a story, it cant be used as evidence in any way.

I'd love to belive in God, but i cant belive in something that isnt there.

[LIP]

Prove God doesn't exist.

You cant, but you cant prove he does exsist. It's an individual's perception.

My view is he doesnt exsist, simple as, and i dont need to prove it to anyone, and your view may very well be that he does exsist, and you dont have to prove THAT to anyone, but if someone wants me to belive in God, i need 100% proof, not a book that isnt true. There's too many contradictions in it, and it's changed so much since it was "first" wrote.

[Pass That Shit]

Lip,

I think you're right. There is no God in your heart. Therefore he doesn't exist.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God exists in my heart. You guys need proof against something that exists.
You keep seeking for proof, look around, but if you can't see it, there isn't any.
I have substance and evidence so you become the accuser.

Do you guys know the saying about the clay and the potter? Why did you make me this way?

God is real, that's why there are atheists. :pimp:

[AlwaysBlazed]

If god was real, there would be evidence.

[jbuckets]

God is just a persons way to explain death and infite. These are the only two things the human mind cannot comprehend. Our brains cannot understand what it means to no longer exist so we develop the idea of an afterlife to help us cope. Our brains also have a difficult time understanding something that is never ending, such as the universe. Since we are binded to the world by what we see, we make up things to explain the unexplainable. Noone wants to belive that we are some sort of product of evolution, we would much rather believe we were here for a purpose. I have much more on the subject, but im too sober and lazy to type right now. If you want real thoughts about truths in the universe, read some Socrates, he explains the universe in the best way..that it cant be explained.

[orange floyd]

Lip,

I think you're right. There is no God in your heart. Therefore he doesn't exist.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
God exists in my heart. You guys need proof against something that exists.
You keep seeking for proof, look around, but if you can't see it, there isn't any.
I have substance and evidence so you become the accuser.

Do you guys know the saying about the clay and the potter? Why did you make me this way?

God is real, that's why there are atheists. :pimp:


what proof and substance do you have for there being a God?

[Platinum Plus]

If ghosts exist than god exists
cuz how could spirits be walkin around?

[mrdevious]

what proof and substance do you have for there being a God?

That's his mystical-sounding way of saying "I believe in god, therefor he exists". In a way this is true though. One who believes in god has the same effect on his life wrought by his belief, whether or not there is a god. God exists in relation to his relevance. God can only be relevant to our lives in relation to how he affects us. If the belief in god affects ones life in the same way whether god is up there or not, the relevance of god's existence in relation to ours remains the same; except for the afterlife I suppose, though theoretically such belief could be made reality (in relation to ones own existence) if consciousness can carry itself beyond the physical body after death.

[harris7]

If ghosts exist than god exists
cuz how could spirits be walkin around?

wow,


Itâ??s funny how atheists have such a better grasp (most of the time) on spiritual issues in general.

Guess what platinum there could be spirits without god.
There could be an afterlife, reincarnation, anything.

oh, and why do you speak of sprits as if they exist? watching too much fox?
They might exist but little support for them
â?¬
Personally I by no means discredit the possibility of â??something elseâ?�
Which could be many things

I explicitly disagree with the assertions of the Christian God

[mrdevious]

If there was evidence, then this life would be easy, everyone would believe in God, and there would be no evil.

Sounds good to me.


There is some evidence, but people just chose to ignore it.

No, people analyse this so-called "evidence" and can point out the gaping logical flaws in other people's interpretation of is. And when this "evidence" is proven to be false, theists simply ignore and continue to spout the same non-sensicle arguments.



The Bible is meant to be evidence, but people lack faith and say it is not because it is "just a book, why should I believe what it says?".

The bible is a book of mythology that claims certain people, dieties, and events occured. The shere existence of a book is not evidence, otherwise all the Roman mythology, Egyptian's Ra, Viking's Thor, and Shintoist spirits in rocks are "evidence" as well. You can't claim something is evidence if it is dependent on faith, then it is just faith. Faith is nothing more than giving in, turning off the part of your brain that questions, and believing because you've put devotion to an ideal before critical reasoning.





Millions of Christian people with masses of faith who are living the way of Christ are meant to be evidence, but when they try to teach people their ways, they're just said to be annoying preachers.

So essentially: "If that many people believe it, it must be true!". That's just silly. At one time more pagan's existed than christians, so how could all those people be wrong? In fact all those millions of believers were proof in and of themselves I guess.
All this shows is that people are willing to turn off their brains and believe something because everybody else does. Hence why we have religion, George Bush as president, the rise of Nazi's, racism etc etc etc....


In this world, no one is going to believe in God unless he comes to down to Earth, picks up a mountain and yells "I AM GOD, NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN ME?".


So why doesn't he? "Then there would be no need for faith", right? Well nobody's ever answered why we need faith, why god rewards those who just turn off their reasoning and believe something because everybody around them has told them to do so. Just imagine if you lived in a culture that never heard of god. You're 42 years old, have no religion, then one day some guy tries to convince you all this "god" stuff is true. The only reason he'll give is "you just have to have faith", telling you believing without consideration is, in and of istself, a virtue. Heck, pretend that same scenario applies to my trying to convince you Thor, the blacksmith of the gods exists. Would you just take my word for it because I said there's rewards to be wrought if you do? It's entirely circular logic.


Face it - mere evidence is not enough. Atheists will continue to find excuses to why God doesn't exist, when all it takes is a little faith.

That's right, becauese everybody should "keep finding excuses" as you put it. When every single reason to believe in this supposed diety has an obvious and glarring flaw in its reasoning, we're going to come to the logical conclusion that it's made up and the stories are based on false pretenses. Faith is just a mystical way of saying "just believe because you want to". It's an insult to human intellect, and damaging to it as well as it teaches kids that it's ok to believe something just because you want to.


It isn't about material evidence. It's about living a positive life. "Do unto others."

Couldn't agree more. But that doesn't prove god exists, that's a moral guide to living a good life. And god, whether some monotheists like to push it or not, does not have a monopoly on morality.

[Hamlet]

If there was evidence, then this life would be easy, everyone would believe in God, and there would be no evil.

...and this would be a bad thing because????

[LIP]

...and this would be a bad thing because????

He didnt say it would be bad, but sadly, we all know it's unrealistic, and will definatly never happen.

[mrdevious]

Because that evidence has not been proven to be false. Ever. Much like God has never been proven to exist. Ever. It all comes down to personal perception.

What evidence is that? All I'm saying is that every single argument, interpretation of the world, and supposed "proof" has been a majorly flawed argument. Things like "you can't say god doesn't exist, otherwise you're calling him a liar". Or "God must exist because life is too complex to have happened by accident". All these are easily debunked and have very clear answers, but rather than research most people just say "well god fits as an answer, therefor that proves god exists".

or are you just postulating the old "you can't disprove god" which I and many others have explained a billion times here why that's an incredibly fallacious argument.




Much like I believe being an atheist is just the easy way out.

Easy way out? I didn't choose to be an atheist because I thought dying and blinking out of existence was a nice idea. I didn't choose it because I liked the idea that the good will recieve no reward and the bad will not be ultimately punished. Atheism is the perhapse the hardest way, because it doesn't rely on a big book of simple answers. Instead it deals with the reality that the universe, life, existence as a whole is a very complex thing that is going to require huge innovation in thinking to solve the many problems we face today. Society, government forms, technology, medicine... these things arose because humans took the challenges of life on themselves and figured out how the world works and how to make it better, all by using our own advanced brain power.




I'm talking about the message of love that Christians are meant to spread. When they try to spread it, usually they are laughed at by people who "know better".

Nobody is argueing that love, peace, forgiveness etc. are wrong concepts. We're arguing that the existence of this magical man in the sky that punishes and rewards us accordingly has no valid reasons for us to believe in him/her/it.




You can't make a decision about God without reading the entire Bible. And if I was that 42 year old with no religion, i'd conclude that the message of love and "Do unto others" that the Bible gives makes a hell of a lot of sense.

And a lot of the messages DO make a lot of sense! (though certainly not all). But I'm not talking about that man believing in your moral code, I'm talking about that man believing you that there's this diety who's dictator of the universe dictating right from wrong and that we supposedly have to follow him or be punished/rewarded accordingly.



I follow the Bible for the messages like those. I believe the morality it teaches is amazing.

It coveres a lot, but not everything. Things like forgiveness, peace, not putting one man above another (I think), these are good concepts, albiet pretty simple ones that any human could think up. I don't necessarily agree with silly things like Gays being evil wrongdoers, or beating your kids to raise them right.


And that's why I have faith.

That's why you have faith in the moral code. Then you decided to just expand that to faith in the existence of god as well, so far as I can tell.


To be honest, I guess I could be wrong about God.

Now there's a consideration I've seen few theists give. And I'll say the same, that I cannot definitively say that god does not exist, I just won't believe in him till I have a valid reason to. But I applaud you for at least keeping that consideration open. I find it odd that some creationists can say they believe in god because it's rational, then refuse to even consider anything that doesn't agree with their preconceptions.



But when I die I will die with a sense of satisfaction, knowing that I tried my best to live my life like Jesus taught us to.

I hope you do. Jesus, if he existed (I'm not denying that, but who knows), was a very wise man. But there are other very wise philosophers throughout the ages, and I find it insulting when people tell me I'm going to hell or even just wrong for not following thier leader... as if no other can form a moral code that is also right.

I'll certainly acknowledge that among the creationists I've debated, you're more reasonable than most. I grow tired of the ones that tell me if I follow the teachings of Buddha I'll be punished for following the "wrong prophet". There's great wisdom to be found from many of them. I'd actually recommend reading up on the Baha'ula from the Bah'ai faith. I haven't read his works thoroughly, but he was an incredibly intelligent and insightfull guy from what I've read so far.


You keep talking about these flaws, and these proofs that God doesn't exist. Why don't you tell me what they are?

*sigh* honestly I really don't want to go through them again, I've gone over and over and over it SO many times with others that my brain is going numb. To give you the jist though, I believe that one should not believe in god (or anything) unless there is some valid reason to believe so. Otherwise you're just believing what you want to believe.

I've not only had countless debates, but when I used to believe in god I searched the internet tirelessly (and read a couple books) for 2 years analysing every single argument I could possibly find. I genuinly wanted to believe in god, but I couldn't unless I knew my belief was backed up by rationality. So I read every page out there with every argument I could ever find that gives evidence for the existence of god, and instead I kept finding one logical flaw after another.

If you want me to "disprove" god, I can't. That's not becuase god is so real that he can't be disproved, it's because for evidence to exist it must be based in something that exists. Just as if I were to tell you there's an invisible teacup orbiting a star 10,000 galaxies away, you could never disprove it; but it means nothing, and it's up to me to prove that the teacup does exist. The reason I don't believe in god is because I haven't EVER heard a good argument for him. If you have one, I'd be happy to hear it. I'd be happy to know there's a god of course, that would make my death seem a lot less bleak, and my life a lot more secure. But until then, I won't believe in god when I haven't heard a single rational as to why I should.

[harris7]

There is some evidence, but people just chose to ignore it. The Bible is meant to be evidence, but people lack faith and say it is not because it is "just a book, why should I believe what it says?". Millions of Christian people with masses of faith who are living the way of Christ are meant to be evidence, but when they try to teach people their ways, they're just said to be annoying preachers.

In this world, no one is going to believe in God unless he comes to down to Earth, picks up a mountain and yells "I AM GOD, NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN ME?". Face it - mere evidence is not enough. Atheists will continue to find excuses to why God doesn't exist, when all it takes is a little faith. It isn't about material evidence. It's about living a positive life. "Do unto others."

You seem to think that atheists want god to not exist. This isnâ??t true, I would love it if god existed. And most atheists start out as believers, so why would we start making excuses that contradict support for out belief?

Lets talk about evidence, Iâ??m going to put this out there to see what yaâ??ll think
I think there are two kinds of evidence to which we speak of.

The first would be proof evidence (god shows himself)- something that pretty much proves without a doubt that god exists.
-I hope we all agree that this kind of evidence for god does not exist.

The second would be supporting evidenceâ??this is essentially new data which fits in with the existing theory. So if the theory is God something that supports this theory would be, in some peoples eyes, the complexity of life.
-this is a bad example, but I hope you get the gist

I agree with you United, there is some supporting evidence that god exists. (I cant think of any, but am giving you the benefit of the doubt)

The problem for me is the gap between what the evidence warrants and the conclusion some people draw. (please tell me of this evidence I like to ignore?)

You make the opposite argument, that the evidence is so strong atheists must ignore lots of it, not to be convinced by it. This is ridiculous!!!


I think a lot of atheists see it this way: the theory of god does not have enough support for anyone to commit to it. The gap between the evidence and the conclusion is too large.

this gap I speak of is what faith and desire fill

[harris7]

There is some evidence, but people just chose to ignore it. The Bible is meant to be evidence, but people lack faith and say it is not because it is "just a book, why should I believe what it says?". Millions of Christian people with masses of faith who are living the way of Christ are meant to be evidence, but when they try to teach people their ways, they're just said to be annoying preachers.

In this world, no one is going to believe in God unless he comes to down to Earth, picks up a mountain and yells "I AM GOD, NOW CAN YOU BELIEVE IN ME?". Face it - mere evidence is not enough. Atheists will continue to find excuses to why God doesn't exist, when all it takes is a little faith. It isn't about material evidence. It's about living a positive life. "Do unto others."

You seem to think that atheists want god to not exist. This isn’t true, I would love it if god existed. And most atheists start out as believers, so why would we start making excuses that contradict support for out belief?

Lets talk about evidence, I’m going to put this out there to see what ya’ll think
I think there are two kinds of evidence to which we speak of.

The first would be proof evidence (god shows himself)- something that pretty much proves without a doubt that god exists.
-I hope we all agree that this kind of evidence for god does not exist.

The second would be supporting evidence—this is essentially new data which fits in with the existing theory. So if the theory is God something that supports this theory would be, in some peoples eyes, the complexity of life.
-this is a bad example, but I hope you get the gist
-the bible is very poor supporting evidence. there is little reason not to
consider it fiction

I agree with you United, there is some supporting evidence that god exists. (I cant think of any, but am giving you the benefit of the doubt)

The problem for me is the gap between what the evidence warrants and the conclusion some people draw. (please tell me of this evidence I like to ignore?)

You make the opposite argument, that the evidence is so strong atheists must ignore lots of it, not to be convinced by it. This is ridiculous!!!


I think a lot of atheists see it this way: the theory of god does not have enough support for anyone to commit to it. The gap between the evidence and the conclusion is too large.

this gap I speak of is what faith and desire fill

[harris7]

Now lets talk about supporting and proof evidence in relation to evolution.

In science it is very difficult or impossible to produce proof evidence. This is the point some people exploit to bring confusion around evolution.

Evolution does not have proof evidence, it may some day if we are able to watch a species be produced from another. Time will tell, maybe we have already.
I cant say for sure because evidence proving evolution really wouldn’t be that big of a deal in the biological sphere because it is already accepted as fact.

The supporting evidence is breathtaking. The amount of data which fits with evolutionary theory is so large the possibility of another theory also explaining it all is almost impossible. This is why it is accepted as fact.

I admit also, there is a gap between the evidence and the theory (As there always is). For evolution the gap is small, for other theories evolution replaced their gaps were larger.
Essentially science accepts the theories with the smallest gap, then encourages further research to shrink the gap further. (this is basically accepting the best explanation of data)

Important note: the structure of the human knee does not fit with intelligent design. It contradicts it. But the human knee fits very well with evolutionary design. Hmmm
Interesting again. (we can talk more of this)


Science and religion are both structured in different ways. Science structured itself to find the truth. Religion structured itself so that it cannot be disproven.

To be disproven something must make predictions or claims. So the theory of evolution predicted the field of genetics (amazing, I must admit Darwin got lucky on this one)

The only predictions that religion makes are very vague, fuzzy and wide open to interpretation. (following the discipline of fortune tellers)

Realistically since religion makes not solid claims, this claims can never be false. And religion can never be “proved” false.

[harris7]

heres my discussion of the human knee

http://boards.cannabis.com/showthread.php?t=88860&page=3

[smoke it]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.

why would god give us free will if he knew we would abuse it?

[MastaChronic]

why would god give us free will if he knew we would abuse it?

if there is a god, i would guess for the sole purpose of enjoyment.
if there is a god, i would liken him to a kid with an ant farm, he doesnt have any plan for any of us and he didnt give us free will. if there is a god i would bet that the only reason we have free will is not because he gave it to us, but because he cant control us.

[harris7]

I think a lot of people here would be surprised to know that "free will" and humans having it is under strong philosophical debate. and has been for like hundreds of years.

I actually dont believe humans have free will. I am what they call a compatiblist.

---United i remember now that you do believe in evolution. even though i wasn't directing the statements specifically at you. And you are correct, evolution dosn't conflict with creationism. It all comes back, you have very different beliefs than most and i realize that most of what i say probably dosn't effect you; as it is all directed at the more fundamentalist side of Christianity

[harris7]

What's the alternative? If we didn't have free will, we would be robots, and there would be absolutely no point to this life.

looks to me United that your belief has followed what you desire to believe...


let me lay something out there for ya'll to think about,

Does god have free will.

--now wait one second the answer isn't as obvious as you think. Most believers will automatically answer yes to this. Because they see free will as a good thing and they want their god to have it. So lets pause for some rational thought.

If god was all-good (as in infinitely good), all-powerful, and all-knowing. Would this god have free will.


No, i would not think so. This god would be barred from making any decision other than the "best one". (best as in maximizing good)

I also believe that if this god existed then humans would not only be not â??freeâ?� but would be 100% determined by god. Ie. God would have control and would have essentially decided everything for everyone.

Some interesting philosophical though follows. this is the kind of shit i was hoping to get into on these forums back a while ago.

When creating the earth and universe this god would be "forced" to create the best one. Yet this planet is full of evilâ?¦ hmmm. Is this possible if god exists?
(this is the problem of evil)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Problem_of_evil

(please rebut, or ask any questionâ??s, or I guess you could ask for my arguments for these conclusions )

[Polymirize]

I think a lot of people here would be surprised to know that "free will" and humans having it is under strong philosophical debate. and has been for like hundreds of years.

That's been debated everywhere, true. Including within the scope of religion.

I actually dont believe humans have free will. I am what they call a compatiblist.

Noumenal God?

---United i remember now that you do believe in evolution. even though i wasn't directing the statements specifically at you. And you are correct, evolution dosn't conflict with creationism. It all comes back, you have very different beliefs than most and i realize that most of what i say probably dosn't effect you; as it is all directed at the more fundamentalist side of Christianity

Do you have arguments against the believers who aren't fundamentalist? Who have a progressive view about history and politics and therefore look to the good book for guidance on spiritual matters rather than to decide what do vote for.


all bold my own.

[LIP]

If God exsisted he would love us un-conditionally right? I mean, were his creation, he must love us all. That's what the chritians say. Right?

So, if God DOES exsist, and love us un-conditionally, why is there a heaven and hell according to christians?

Why would he send us to hell?

[The Reffer]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.

theres the answer right there plain and simple

[mrdevious]

theres the answer right there plain and simple

I don't know if it's "plain and simple". We blame all the shortcomings of the current human condition on freedom of will. God sent down his word, such as through the bible, as a means of guidance to us human beings. But I ask this, how good a job did he really do? I mean if god is an infinite being of perfect wisdom, infinite knowledge, shouldn't he know best how to guide us? Obviously the bible has fallen short of guiding and converting humanity to its ways. Obviously sending one guy 2,000 years ago with a message that's rather hard to believe for many, hasn't been even close to adaquate. Shouldn't this infinitely perfect being have seen that this would be inadaquate and done something better, or something more?
After all, god would know the best and more effective means to guide humanity, yet he hasn't done much. I know people have to choose to accept the bible, but like a parent raising an infintile child, god should know that he can't simply do the minimum, tell us what to do, and expect his child to do the rest and grow up perfect. The child (or society) needs continuous guidance as it grows up to become a responsible, peacefull, and wise person.

argh, I hope that all came together coherently. My mind feels a bit muddled this morning after "not having done acid for my first time last night". Board rules and all, so I didn't do that if you catch my drift.

[harris7]

i am aware that it has been debated with religious folk. and some decent rebuttals have been given.


I don’t really consider these arguments to be against religion. I just like them for some philosophical fun. Well generally I speak to more fundamentalist believers as their though process’s just bug me, so I usually cant help but question their thoughts.

(and generally on here when you start talking about something more interesting, someone comes along and goes on about something I would consider fundamentalist and we start again)

With religion the scope is so large that if you are asking me for an argument right now against progressive believes, I probably couldn’t think of a particularly good one. But if you pick a topic I’d probably remember one. I generally like to come to the table without arguments and base mine on theirs. As they are the one proposing something (god).

I think using the bible as guidance is very reasonable. I truly believe that was it’s purpose, to guide people. It has lots of good ideas, but also some harmful ones. Using the bible to follow a more fulfilling live is great, I only have a problem with that when people follow it blindly( and don’t critically separate the good ideas from the outdated) and it starts to affect others (issues like gay marriage, evolution)

I also oppose the jump from a book filled with good ideas on how to live life. To “this book was written by god”. I oppose the notion of god in this book, although I do not oppose ideas on spiritual matters in general.

[JeenYuss]

You cant, but you cant prove he does exsist. It's an individual's perception.

My view is he doesnt exsist, simple as, and i dont need to prove it to anyone, and your view may very well be that he does exsist, and you dont have to prove THAT to anyone, but if someone wants me to belive in God, i need 100% proof, not a book that isnt true. There's too many contradictions in it, and it's changed so much since it was "first" wrote.

thats it, the argument should have just stopped there

lip you are now one of my role models
it could quite possibly be for any more than being high and saying something that makes sense, i dont know

my opinion
there is no god
beleiving in god gives you assurance and confidence, thus the illusion that someone above is helping you
as far as i'm concerned

i AM god:rastasmoke:

[JunkYard]

why would god give us free will if he knew we would abuse it?

Not only do we have free will, but we have a fucking brain AND the ability to learn from our mistakes. Someday we will learn, and that is why God gave us free will. He knows mankind needs to wade through a little shit so that we'll appreciate, and know that we're clean once we wise up.


~Junk~

[Polymirize]

i am aware that it has been debated with religious folk. and some decent rebuttals have been given.


I donâ??t really consider these arguments to be against religion. I just like them for some philosophical fun. Well generally I speak to more fundamentalist believers as their though processâ??s just bug me, so I usually cant help but question their thoughts.


I guess my issue is that the philosophical issue has never been addressed. In the multiple incarnations of this thread which seem to haunt the spirituality section of these boards, it always turns into a slugfest between christians and atheists, both of whom spend most of their time defining their opponents views for them.


And MrD, I'd be interested in hearing how that went for you, or, did not went for you...

[t3chyo]

sorry I didnt read all of the comments, but I had to say this. Like someone said on the first page, one of the two things our minds cannot comprehend is infinite and all that is being argued over, going back and forth, new ideas, old ideas, is all part of infinite. Something our minds CANNOT comprehend, making all these ideas part of something, untill death(maybe), we cannot COMPREHEND! What Im saying is, if you all agree we cannot comprehend infinite, that this thread is getting no where to an answer, just expanding off of infinite ideas. :rasta:

[BlueCat]

I myself have been looking for proof my entire life trying every religion out there is and finding hypocrites in all of them.

At the same time I have climbed Mt. Baker and looked across the Cascades towards Canada, breathed the air. saw these colors and beauty that made you feel like there is a God. I don't know how to explain it but the feeling was there. It is there when you hold your baby for the 1st time too there is this connection you feel with everything.

There is also all this new God gene research. I find it amazing that people that pray have this area of their brain and a gene that other people either don't have or have not developed yet. Maybe they will prove someday that God is within ourselves that we have the ability to find him if we look.

Maybe I don't know that is why I am agnostic I am still looking but I don't ever plan on just giving up.

[mrdevious]

And MrD, I'd be interested in hearing how that went for you, or, did not went for you...

It went pretty lousy actually, but I'm going to try again later. I made the mistake of deciding to take it after it was offered, but shortly before I took a hefty dose of Tramadol because my sciatic nerves were killing me. So all in all after making the mistake of "oh mixing them will be fine, they're nothing alike!", it was depressing and it felt like my IQ dropped to 50 for the duration. Plus I mixed it with weed, which I don't think helped but it's hard to say.

I really wish we could discuss other psychedelic substances on these boards still, the spiritual aspect of it has an incredible amount of information, uses, and lessons. I frequent some other boards that focus on entheogenic meditative exploration/ ceremonies (something I'm starting tomorrow with salvia now that my nose isn't killing me from the recent surgery), and the sheer amount of different uses and tools found in plants is incredibly vast.

I may start a discussion on the spiritual use of salvia tomorrow actually. Everybody here (myself included) has been far too wrapped up in this single argument about god's existence. I think we're all so stuck on this mindset in the last several months that we've forgotten the vast aray that exists in spirituality around the world and through history.

ok I'm getting off track, but I'm super high (just weed folks). For some reason mixing weed with tobacco today (which I only do on occasion) made the high way more uplifting and making me think about stuff. I would nicotine actually has its uses too in mind exploration, it's when it becomes a regular habbit that it, like any substance, is cheapened in a way.

[MastaChronic]

this is just something that "irks" me
christianity is monotheistic, yet some christians claim that god is in us all, this is a contradiction because if god was within us all that would make it not only polytheistic, but really fucking arrogant for claiming that we are god. wouldnt that claim make christianity not a worship of any god, but just a worship of ourselfs?
bluecat remined me of this thought ive had in my mind for a while, thanks BC

[BlueCat]

Yes but I am not Christain...and yes I think they might discover God is in us all. It was buddist that they did the C scans on and found this thing they are calling the God gene it was also found in nuns. It seems to develop by praying.

[harris7]

I guess my issue is that the philosophical issue has never been addressed. In the multiple incarnations of this thread which seem to haunt the spirituality section of these boards, it always turns into a slugfest between christians and atheists, both of whom spend most of their time defining their opponents views for them.


And MrD, I'd be interested in hearing how that went for you, or, did not went for you...

I started visiting the spirituality section of cannabis hoping to engage in some solid philosophical debate. But most people here donâ??t really understand philosophy, IMO.

The problem here, which seems to halt our progression is that everyone on here is only willing to argue from their own specific view point. So if one wants to engage another they must first understand their view then discuss. And the discussion really donâ??t involve anyone else, cuz everyoneâ??s got different beliefs.

Personally I can and will argue for anything, if asked. Its all philosophy to me.

The way I see it is that everyone here can philosophize only based on their own beliefs and their own assumptions.

I like to engage in philosophical debates based on my own beliefs or others or whatever. Its quite entertaining to structure arguments on other beliefs or against my own.

Basically on here I also always base my arguments on premiseâ?? that I believe. (unless rebutting). I just think a lot of people on here donâ??t like using assumptions that they donâ??t agree with.

Poly, I believe you have a further education in philosophy than I so Iâ??m sure you understand the enjoyment one can achieve through philosophy. To me itâ??s just like a sport.
Someone defines the specific rules, for God I guess one usually defines it as omni-benevolent, omniscient and omnipotent (as in a sport these should just be accepted during the argument). We all know the basic rules ie. Logic. And lets go. I hoped for this kind of debate but it seems people just donâ??t like to argue from any other view point than their own beliefs.

Man, Iâ??m totally down for going into some interesting philosophical shit Iâ??ve been thinking of. Iâ??m sure you understand that so much of it is very complex and I guess I doubt Iâ??d ever be able to properly explain it as any good debate on here keeps getting staled. But, if you wana start a thread Iâ??m down. Iâ??m sure a few other people are two.

[MastaChronic]

Yes but I am not Christain...and yes I think they might discover God is in us all. It was buddist that they did the C scans on and found this thing they are calling the God gene it was also found in nuns. It seems to develop by praying.

i know your not BC, your mentioning of studies done to find a god gene just reminded me of that thought.
it might be something entirely different than a god gene, it might be a "blind faith" gene or something

[BlueCat]

You are trying to think of God as an entity but what if it is a place of peace and harmony with in ourselves. Imagine if everyone believed that way we'd have the song John Lennon sang and he'd still be here to sing it :D

[MastaChronic]

You are trying to think of God as an entity but what if it is a place of peace and harmony with in ourselves. Imagine if everyone believed that way we'd have the song John Lennon sang and he'd still be here to sing it :D

i believe (im not entirely sure, mr.D a little help?) that the place within ourselves full of peace and harmony would be the buddhists nirvana....or is that hinduism? idk, ima go wiki it right now

EDIT: yes, i was right
maybe all the christians should throw down their beliefs and pick up buddhism while the athiests adopt this
i dont think buddhism is really a religion, but more of a philosophy

[BlueCat]

It is buddism and nirvana from what I have read is when you know all there is to know. Very few reach nirvana. The Dalai Lama hasn't even reached it yet. They acheive peace and harmony through meditation and prayer.

[BlueCat]

No it isn't really a religion though some buddist think of Dalai Lama as god he is a teacher. I love Buddism. My son cooked at a buddist temple in Vancouver before he joined the army.

[nikweiser]

im simple when it comes to this subject really. i have my own theory and thats what i follow. i do my own thing and live my own life... i dont follow anyone or anything thing such as a 'god'.

I think our spirits will move on to a greater adventure, as i saw someone say earlier in the thread that our life is just a 'test' into what we are going to experiance in our afterlife.

i would LOVE to have there be a god, to go to heaven when you die and be greated by all your family members and be happy forever..


but until then im just gonna live my life day by day. i fully belive in my ways 100% and not a single person is ever going to change the way i feel about it.

[JunkYard]

Buddhists are great! I Love them...They are more christ like than most Christians, imo. Gentle, Loving, compassionate, and kind; I think they are true beacons to mankind. We could all learn something from the Buddhist philosophy, imo.


Much Love,


~Junk~

[wakdady]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.

have you seen Waking Life?

[harris7]

i believe (im not entirely sure, mr.D a little help?) that the place within ourselves full of peace and harmony would be the buddhists nirvana....or is that hinduism? idk, ima go wiki it right now

EDIT: yes, i was right
maybe all the christians should throw down their beliefs and pick up buddhism while the athiests adopt this
i dont think buddhism is really a religion, but more of a philosophy

Buddhism is a very secular tradition. Some sects would be considered a region and others a philosophy. I believe that it differs so much because different sects often focus on different parts, others look at it in entirety

It is interesting

[Immolation]

Simple. Free will. It's God's law. It can't be broken. Every human has choices.

Not a difficult concept.


Will people have freewill in Heaven? :confused:

[BlueCat]

Buddhists are great! I Love them...They are more christ like than most Christians, imo. Gentle, Loving, compassionate, and kind; I think they are true beacons to mankind. We could all learn something from the Buddhist philosophy, imo.


Much Love,


~Junk~

Yes I agree we could all learn from the Dalai Lama :)

[mrdevious]

i believe (im not entirely sure, mr.D a little help?) that the place within ourselves full of peace and harmony would be the buddhists nirvana....or is that hinduism? idk, ima go wiki it right now

Your right Masta, but the hindu's have a concept of nirvana that is very similar too. Also, the Bon religion which was prominant in Tibet for some 7,000 years and is one of the oldest religions in the world, is based on a man who was said to have attained enlightenment. Unfortunately they didn't have nearly the time the Buddha offered to spread his teachings, so it's hard to say if it's the same type of enlightenment. Probably not, but something similar; however the Tibetan's picked up buddhism so enthusiastically because it was very compatible with the beliefs they already had.
I can't speak about the Hindu form of enlightenment since I'm not especially well versed, but it is unique and perhapse less detailed than the buddhist enlightenment known as "nirvana" (extinctions of self).

The buddhist concept of nirvana is not one that can be fully understood without actaully having attained it. When the Sidhartha attained nirvana and became the Buddha, he attained the extinction of self. This is often misinterpreted as a sort of self-anihilation, a death without leaving life, but that's incorrect. The extinction of self is the extinction of the ego, a mindset where the sense of self is extinguished and one comes into perfect harmony with existence. The mind ceases to separate your body, mind, and the external world as separate entities. (This is why Taoism has often been very compatible and practiced along side buddhism, and buddhist and taoist philosophers often congregated on a special occasion to have several-day-long discussions).
Nirvana does not entail a supernatual omniscient understanding of everything and anything. When one attains nirvana, rather, they reach a point of perfect wisdom. They see the world as it truely is, and understand how to make decisions and guide others in a way that will create perfect harmony between the self and the universe. This can be a bit confusing since it entails extinction of "self", yet there is a "self" that exists. That is, there is an egoless entity that makes up yourself as the newly enlightened being, who no longer exists as a being separate from anything.



EDIT: yes, i was right
maybe all the christians should throw down their beliefs and pick up buddhism while the athiests adopt this
i dont think buddhism is really a religion, but more of a philosophy

I don't think so actually. Some people need to stay with the religion they are engulfed in culturally to have the support of the majority of their peers. Jesus himself was a very wise man and a rolemodel completely worth following by example. It's the extra, often hatefull or abusive nonsense, that gets added into the bible by several authors over hundreds of years that seem to be the problem. These are the parts that some more hate-filled people like to adopt then blow WAY out of proportion, giving it extra attention and exageration, and twist the core message of the bible as an excuse to still call themselves "christian". Though thankfully non of such types of people seem to reside here. The main point I'm trying to make here, one philosophy can't be for everybody, they have to have a mind that is willing to adopt the practices, and above all understand them which many unfortunately fail to do. Buddhism can at times be very confusing to the untrained mind in its complex simplicity.

And yes, I do agree that it is more a philosophy than a religion. Religion isn't really accurate, but it's a title attached to any philosophy followed by enough people I suppose.





Buddhists are great! I Love them...They are more christ like than most Christians, imo. Gentle, Loving, compassionate, and kind; I think they are true beacons to mankind. We could all learn something from the Buddhist philosophy, imo.

I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this either. There are tons of buddhists who act nothing like the Buddha would want, just like the tons of christians who act nothing like Jesus, and the tons of Muslims who act nothing like the Quran tells them. The Tibetan system eventually became a rather lousy one, where 80% of the population slaved as surfs to support the temple and lifestyle of the 20% buddhists who exploited the wealth of the many to support the few. The problem is not buddhism, islam, christianity, any of it. The problem is that people spend more time obsessing over the mythology attached to every religious leader (including buddhism, as the Hindu's attached a whole bunch of extra mythology to Buddha's life, that Buddha himself never actually claimed or discussed). IMHO, people need to stop obsessing over the words of scholors and mythological beings, and more on the way their religious/philisophical leader would have lived himself.

[JeenYuss]

i am god

end of subject

[BlueCat]

hey Mr.devious thank you so much for your input...I agree with a lot of what you have said. Masta was right to a degree about Nirvana it is suppose to be within us but it is rarely if ever reached in Buddism. According to the Dalai Lama who I have had the joy of hearing speak it IS total enlightenment and the Dalai Lama the 14th himself has said he has never reached it....
Buddha himself stated I am not a god. Please do not worship me.


I think we can learn from all these religions. Have you read Understanding Suffering? It is the writings of several famous religious leaders. I was amaze by the peace and understanding it promotes. The teaching of Jesus and Christianity in its pure form is one of the most beautiful teachings that exist. It is just rarely if ever followed in its pure form. How many times have you heard what would Jesus do? I have only met a very small group that actually follow Christ. The (CPTers Christian Peace Keeping Team is one group I admire for their courage in following the teachings of the New Testament.

The Koran also has many peaceful teachings. A lot of the Koran has been taken out of context and used as propaganda to promote this war. Religion has been a hobby of mine for a while. Man has contaminated these religious teachings. There will always be those that distort the teachings for their own benefit. I think if a person reads these texts they will be a better person because of them. I don't feel you can go to a church to learn it. I have always had a problem with organized religions and preachers.


I feel religion has a purpose in society and for many that are suffering it is the only way they can tolerate their situation it is for this reason I respect religion. I wish everyone would read these texts and make up their own mind but sadly I don't see that ever happening.

[BlueCat]

i am god

end of subject

Then end the war in Iraq and Afganistan PLEASE!

[Reefer Rogue]

If there was a God there would be no mysteries.

[JunkYard]

If there was a God there would be no mysteries.


Wow, who could argue with that logic? <Insert sarcasm icon here> Seriously, why would you think that? Life is mystery and that my friend is what makes it so intriging...Same with God.


~Junk~

[Reefer Rogue]

Relying on the existence of God isn't philisophically sound as it masquerades as an explantion when really it explains nothing. If we could rely on the existence of god to prove every theory, like idealism, then there would be no mysteries.

[JunkYard]

I see what you're saying, [I mis understood] but would you want, or even like a life w/o mystery? I think it would be kinda dull . . .


~Junk~

[JunkYard]

Yes I agree we could all learn from the Dalai Lama :)

Heck, we could learn from him, Ghandi, Jesus, [John Lennon] and a host of other beacons, so why don't we? Perhaps we are too enveloped in our own philosophies to gain anything from them . . .

I read somwhere that it's best to seek first to understand, then to be understood. Many of us [me included] are so busy trying to push our own views that we fail to hear what others are even saying. Maybe we should just sit back and listen sometimes...


Much Love BlueCat,


~Junk~

[Reefer Rogue]

I see what you're saying, [I mis understood] but would you want, or even like a life w/o mystery? I think it would be kinda dull . . .


~Junk~

It's all good, i didn't explain myself learly the first time.

I like mystery sometimes, then again i like explanations. These answers are never easy are they? :rasta:

[JunkYard]

Nope

:smokin:

[BlueCat]

Heck, we could learn from him, Ghandi, Jesus, [John Lennon] and a host of other beacons, so why don't we? Perhaps we are too enveloped in our own philosophies to gain anything from them . . .

I read somwhere that it's best to seek first to understand, then to be understood. Many of us [me included] are so busy trying to push our own views that we fail to hear what others are even saying. Maybe we should just sit back and listen sometimes...




Much Love BlueCat,


~Junk~

Words of wisdom...absolutely.:clap:

Beaming the love right back,

Cat

[mrdevious]

i am god

end of subject



Really? Prove it :D

disprove it! ;):p

[da5mikeY]

I'm catholic and I go to a catholic high school and have religion class everyday, and I tell my teacher that I lose faith everytime I go to his class because the shit he teaches is ridiculous...and I used to be semi religious too. But I do believe there is a God he just is leaving it up to us to figure shit out...I don't know it's too confusing.

[muordeeb]

Well to me there has to be a God or something greater than we are. There has to be some kind of intelligence underlying all natural functions. Look at the human body, in the electron transport chain how is the oxygen molecule in the right place at the right time to accept its electrons, if this doesn't happen your entire life you will sufficate from the inside. There is intelligence there. You see to me we all blame God for all our shortcomings and our wrongs, but the whole time we have forgotten about the anti-god, some call him satan,naatas,beelzebuub,iblyis. One of satans greatest feat is deceiving to world to make you think he doesn't exist.


Some people need proof to believe in something greater than them. Many a year ago people believed that the world was flat when it had been round or becoming round for 9 billion years. Some people would not believe in microorganism if not for the microscope. People just need to think. There is no instrument or machine to measure the presence of this intelligence, but it is there. See you on the other side.:rastasmoke:

[BlueCat]

Ok so where IS satan? AND don't tell me the center of the earth cause I ain't buying...Tell me he is in the White House I might listen :D

[mrdevious]

ok I'm extremely high here so my thoughts won't be all together, but...


Well to me there has to be a God or something greater than we are. There has to be some kind of intelligence underlying all natural functions. Look at the human body, in the electron transport chain how is the oxygen molecule in the right place at the right time to accept its electrons, if this doesn't happen your entire life you will sufficate from the inside. There is intelligence there.

The problem atheists have here is the methodology behind the assumptions. Besides the fact that there are advanced evolutionary explanations for all that, even assuming evolution never occured..... this whole intelligence-theory doesn't actually have anything to back it up. There could be any number of theories as to why there's such complexity in life, any number of explanations that science can't yet explain, countless mechanisms within the very fabric of reality, the workings throughout this universe we barely understand. saying there is an intelligent designer is simply an easy answer, the only one we can comprehend at the moment and so therefor interpreted as "proof". But simply because it's the only answer many people can think of, isn't proof, it's just assumption that the hypothesis is correct.

Suppose that consciousness is actually the purest form for the fabric of certain dimensions of reality. Suppose the fabric of this dimensional plane, being related to consciousness, has a sort of "conscious" understanding of the universe, but without the ego which creates a sense of "self" that makes us individuals. This fabric then replicates itself, through unknown processes, by creating a complexity through manipulating matter at the quantum level, which would lead to the result of us, human beings, being the most advanced form of consciousness and therefor on the highest-of-yet-achieved self-replication of this dimension which affects all reality.

now that was a pretty wild theory, but it's a logically plausible explanation in relation to acceptable methodology, especially since we can't yet understand all the mechanisms at work and how they work in themselves. But this is not simply accepted as the answer, because I would now need to prove it. The point is, we can imagine infinite explanations for the complexity of life, "intelligence" being the easiest one doesn't make it right, anymore than anything else I or you or anybody can conjure up.

God, quite simply, is man's primitive way of explaning things when the real processes are too complex for us to yet understand. It's a scapegoat for real exploration, one that's been around as long as human history and has undeniably stunted scientific and even philisophical growth by indoctrinating us with the easy answer.



You see to me we all blame God for all our shortcomings and our wrongs, but the whole time we have forgotten about the anti-god, some call him satan,naatas,beelzebuub,iblyis. One of satans greatest feat is deceiving to world to make you think he doesn't exist.

I've heard that many times, but this is another example of how people can be convinced using the premise as the conclusion. By making a statement that our non-belief in satan is satan's greatest trick, you already work under the assumption that satan exists to assume that it's correct that satan's apparent non-existence is the result of his deception.



Some people need proof to believe in something greater than them. Many a year ago people believed that the world was flat when it had been round or becoming round for 9 billion years. Some people would not believe in microorganism if not for the microscope. People just need to think. There is no instrument or machine to measure the presence of this intelligence, but it is there. See you on the other side.:rastasmoke:


Your right, people do need to think. And I honestly believe that indoctrinating the masses to accept the commonly held belief because it's the only currently available answer, is what stunts our ability to think and progress in our understanding. People rightly didn't think there were micro-organisms, because there was no available evidence to make such a conclusion, pointing more toward ignorance of knoweldge than denial of a belief. But people also don't believe that there's an invisible flying spegetti monster roaming space, for the simple reason that there's still no logical reason to believe that the spagetti monster's out there. There are infinite things we did and didn't believe, and as time progresses we learn to separate the real from the non-real as we discover things like the micro-organisms. Hence, you can't simply say that god's existence is plausible simply because we're always discovering new knowledge, otherwise everything is equally plausible that we don't yet have proof for the existence of.


Humanity, if it progresses much further in thought, will innevitably have to realize that the complexity of existence doesn't have nice easy answers that we're able to comprehend at the time being. God needs real evidence to support his existence, not just assumption because we can't currently come up with a better answer; history has had COUNTLESS easy-answers for things we couldn't currently explain, like Thor hammering his anvil to explain thunder, or bad chi's to explain all disease, or pinholes in the sky at night giving us a tiny glimpse into heaven (this was a popular explanation for stars). One day, I hope more than hope, humanity will find the answers by exploration of how we can manipulate this existence, rather than just easy and primitive answers that distract us from the real answers.

[muordeeb]

People are going to believe what they are going to believe. Man only wants to believe in his abilities and nothing greater. I don't need proof to realize I am just a dirty bag of tissue and water and something greater than I created us. Man at this point in time can clone anything, and I'm sure that in another 10,000 years man will be able to create man from dirt just like the creator did, and we only use 7-10% of our white matter. Man right now is a creator. You see to me we are God but we haven't evolved enough yet to use more of a % of our brain.
It's not as complicated as you are making it out to be. What is reality and when have you experienced another dimension of reality?
It's all babble. Believe me the Earth isn't flat.


See you on th other side.:rastasmoke:

[MastaChronic]

People are going to believe what they are going to believe. Man only wants to believe in his abilities and nothing greater. I don't need proof to realize I am just a dirty bag of tissue and water and something greater than I created us. Man at this point in time can clone anything, and I'm sure that in another 10,000 years man will be able to create man from dirt just like the creator did, and we only use 7-10% of our white matter. Man right now is a creator. You see to me we are God but we haven't evolved enough yet to use more of a % of our brain.
It's not as complicated as you are making it out to be. What is reality and when have you experienced another dimension of reality?
It's all babble. Believe me the Earth isn't flat.


See you on th other side.:rastasmoke:

so basically what your saying is that your just going to completely ignore mr.d's analogies and go on assuming (without any evidence) that something created you?
let me ask you this: who created god? who created the creator of god? who created that creator?
something intelligent cant just spring up out of nowhere, thats why there can be no god.(credits to some book that i dont remember the title of)

[muordeeb]

So masterchronic I figure you believe in evolution which is fine because you can't have creationism without evolution. I didn't say God created reality. God live inside this reality which is our entire universe which I call the All. God is an ancient being that figured out how to prolong its existence, just like man is trying to do these days. You say something just can't spring, well that's just what happened 14 billion yrs ago with the big bang. Did the big bang just all of a sudden happen or was there a manipulation? Okay that enough spirituality for me.

Be diligent in your search for knowledge.:rastasmoke:

[MastaChronic]

So masterchronic I figure you believe in evolution which is fine because you can't have creationism without evolution. I didn't say God created reality. God live inside this reality which is our entire universe which I call the All. God is an ancient being that figured out how to prolong its existence, just like man is trying to do these days. You say something just can't spring, well that's just what happened 14 billion yrs ago with the big bang. Did the big bang just all of a sudden happen or was there a manipulation? Okay that enough spirituality for me.

Be diligent in your search for knowledge.:rastasmoke:

whos to say the big bang happened? it is just a theory.
anyway, you go on assuming whatever it is that you would like to.
to me, how things were created has no real relevance to anything at all.

[mrdevious]

muordeeb never actually explained how or why he believes intelligence is behind our creation of course, he just simply "knows". That's the great thing about faith, you don't have to have a reason for anything, you can just pick an answer and declare it truth because it seems to fit. Heaven forbid the gastly concept of unknown forces other than intelligence being at play. If you refuse to believe anything else, that makes it true.

[harris7]

we only use 7-10% of our white matter. Man right now is a creator. :

we use 100% of our brain. old wives tails say 50% were did you get 10? Same place you got your other beliefs?

[muordeeb]

Out of the 1 billion brain cell that we have, action potentials can only be detected in 7-10% of those 1 billions or so cells. Where did you get 100% from. Do some research.

[harris7]

Well them be some big words, action potential. You state this as if it is common fact, I doubt it is.

I am very familiar with this topic as I am majoring in psychology.
I would ask you to cite your source, so I can read it.

I know that 50%+ of your brain is called association areas which have no specific function. This fact was misinterpreted by the media and thus the myth of humans only using 50% was born. I’ve never heard of this 7-10%. I’ve had teachers explicitly say we use ~100%, as well it doesn’t make much sense. Why would evolution select an organism which creates a large organ and doesn’t use most of it. Hmm fishy

as well you should check your research regarding to white matter. Your brain is only made of grey matter (unmyelinated neurons). your spinal cord on the other hand is made of both white and grey.

[harris7]

Sorry the last comment is wrong. The entire brain does have white matter, but the cortex (the area of cognitive functioning) is exclusively grey matter.

Heres a little wikipedia for you:
"
Although folklore would have it that about 90% of the human brain is dormant, this has proven scientifically unfounded; researchers until the mid 1990s focused on only a small portion of the brain in efforts to understand its computational capacity."

[muordeeb]

Nice you are in pysch, good luck in you quest, but where I'm from people call me Doc. Man I haven't studied the brain since I graduated, but there are some thing I retained in my long term memory. Just because you have never heard of percentage of brain usage doesn't mean it isn't true. See you do believe in god. Yourself. You're confused , the brain and spinal cord both are made of grey and white matter. The grey matter is the outer cortex which is unmyelinated and under the cortex is the white matter which is all mylelinated nerve tissue. And this is from my long term memory. I have no reason to cite my source, I already know, not believe, know that I'm correct.
If you want to know that's up to you.

[MastaChronic]

Nice you are in pysch, good luck in you quest, but where I'm from people call me Doc. Man I haven't studied the brain since I graduated, but there are some thing I retained in my long term memory. Just because you have never heard of percentage of brain usage doesn't mean it isn't true. See you do believe in god. Yourself. You're confused , the brain and spinal cord both are made of grey and white matter. The grey matter is the outer cortex which is unmyelinated and under the cortex is the white matter which is all mylelinated nerve tissue. And this is from my long term memory. I have no reason to cite my source, I already know, not believe, know that I'm correct.
If you want to know that's up to you.

heres a question for you....
why dont you blow me and i'll think over these facts and figures while your busy.
j/k lol

[muordeeb]

Man I don't lick cunt. Stop haten:rastasmoke:

[MastaChronic]

ooo burn
lol

[harris7]

Nice you are in pysch, good luck in you quest, but where I'm from people call me Doc. Man I haven't studied the brain since I graduated, but there are some thing I retained in my long term memory. Just because you have never heard of percentage of brain usage doesn't mean it isn't true. See you do believe in god. Yourself. You're confused , the brain and spinal cord both are made of grey and white matter. The grey matter is the outer cortex which is unmyelinated and under the cortex is the white matter which is all mylelinated nerve tissue. And this is from my long term memory. I have no reason to cite my source, I already know, not believe, know that I'm correct.
If you want to know that's up to you.

Well it is good to know were both intelligent people.

Psychology actually has a rate of 50% false positives in research findings. Eg. Half of what we â??discoverâ?� each year is considered false 10 years later.

I can see were your coming from quite a unique situation. I guess the facts have changed

No worries

[apHytHiaTe]

I think this is the kind of question that only a long life's experience can tell you. I think I believe that when you find the meaning of life is the second before you die. And perhaps I think that is a good thing. I remain an agnostic.

[Trip06]

Everyone has there own beliefs and most people push them around or compete them. smoking weed and thinking about my beliefs most definatly screws with my thoughts. I contradict everything I think and my mind goes nowhere and everywhere. So I dont mess with my religion while high. idk just me...

[jdmarcus59]

The biggest problem with the God hypothesis, so far as I can tell, is accounting for the fact that there is absolutely no concrete evidence for God anywhere. My question is: what kind of God would set things up that way? Why would God create a universe in which it is possible to be an atheist, if he wants us to believe in him?

There are a four ways of explaining this that I can think of:

(1) There is a God, but he doesn't want anybody to believe in him.
(2) There is a God, but he doesn't care whether or not we believe in him, and doesn't care about the feelings of those who are desperately trying to find out for sure whether he is real.
(3) There is a God, and he wants us to believe in him, but for some reason he doesn't like people who can only be convinced by logic and evidence, preferring those who take things on blind faith.
(4) There is no God.

Of the four options, number 4 seems to me to be the most logical. I just can't fathom why a God would create the universe and humanity and everything, then fail to reveal himself, and sit idly by watching as people argue and kill each other over their various religious beliefs. God could easily settle the whole matter with one grand miracle, telling us which (if any) of the world's religions are correct, or at least giving us some kind of hint. If there is a God out there, he just doesn't seem to give a shit about what we think or do down here.God does not want us to belive in Him if
we have no chose, He wants us to belive because we chose to belive in Him
that is real love , if you want to be found, He will find you

[Breukelen advocaat]

god bileef is a wonurful ting everbodi shud do it

[Gatekeeper777]

IF god were real the reason there are athiests is because there are people that belive that the earth is flat even tho science has proven it conclusivly to be round.
those are the same people i wish would prove to me that russian ruolette is safe.

[0ffspring]

IF god were real the reason there are athiests is because there are people that belive that the earth is flat even tho science has proven it conclusivly to be round.
those are the same people i wish would prove to me that russian ruolette is safe.

eh, wouldn't it be kinda the other way around.....since atheists use science to attempt to disprove god?

Anyways, I don't really care if a God does exist, Imma just do the best i may and live it up after i die.

[krazy chino]

I don't see the wind but i belive its there cuz I feel it sumtimes I don't see GOD but i believe in him cuz i could feel his presence and most of the logic and important things that i have asked God for I received them ......and why do people belive the newspaper and other non-fiction books but they don't believe in the bible wich was one of the first books in da world and has 66 books written all in different times from different people inspired by God and it all talks about the same thing and it makes sense

[Reefer Rogue]

Thus, although God may have made man in his own image, the concept of God is made in man's own image. - Hume

[Immolation]

Why would God entrust Sinners to spread his word? Couldn't he have found a better way.If a god exists wouldn't he know what evidence would suffice to convince an atheist.:wtf:

[blunt roller]

Originally Posted by orange floyd
what proof and substance do you have for there being a God?
If god was real, there would be evidence.


If u look at the universe, it's kind of hard not to believe in God. stars, planets, life, black holes, galaxies, quasars, plasma, all kind of light (EMS) ....
.....all from an infinitly small point. this whole universe is proof and substance of God.the laws of the universe(motion,physics,ect) are the evidence.

[peacetrain]

If there is a God/God-esque creator entity, I don't think it would be anything like any religion has described it.

Think about how many religions there have been in the history of the world. The difference between Religion and Mythology is time period. In fact, our time periods Gods are pretty boring compared to the ancient ones. At least the old ones had a little fun, and you had a variety of pretend people in the sky to choose from.

[A Scanner Darkly]

Humans are the only species so full of themselves as to create a god. "Oooh, we're so important, we must have been put here for a reason!"

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of the human race thus far. Face it, we suck. What other species murders for personal gain (not food)? What other species treat each other the way we treat other humans?

We beat the shit out of this planet like a virus, spreading. Always spreading and multiplying. Shit, I just erased a bunch of text that wasn't going anywhere, but the point was supposed to be this: taking into account that 99% of all species that have ever existed on this planet are extinct, I can only hope that humans will soon end up on that list (of course, then a list wouldn't exist because there'd be no one to write it).

A world without humans would be a wonderful world, indeed.

[Zspecdrifter]

I've read most of your arguments and you all have some very strong ones, such as uniter we fall, as well as Mr.devious. However the two things that both of you are concluding is that god cannot be disproven or proven, which both of you said. I've come to that conclusion as well, and do not like the concept of there not being something that happen after life. Someone on here has a sig about it, by the flaming lips. Im not sure of their being a god by any means, but there must be something that happens after death. A good argument I heard earlier is that energu cannot be destroyed. The buddhist faith I believe says you will always exist more or less. Which is true, but kind of sucks because your existing as a rock or other item that doesnt really excite me. Anyway conclusion, you always exist in a physical sense. However spiritual Im uncertain of. Id like to believe so. A human mind is a terrible thing to ultimately destroy and be done with.

[mrdevious]

I don't see the wind but i belive its there cuz I feel it sumtimes I don't see GOD but i believe in him cuz i could feel his presence

Suppose the schizophrenic believes in the underpants knomes, is his belief valid because he feels them? When I was a wee little kid sometimes on christmas eve I could swear I could "feel" Santa's presence near my house, but I don't suppose that makes him real now. The difference between god and the wind is that the wind is felt physically, and universally, by all human beings. It is detactable by scientific measurements, we've isolated and labeled it's molecular compounds, it is experienced universally by humans, and we have a tendency to die when we can't breath it anymore. To "feel" god is only a mental event, like the underpants knomes (southpark referrence btw). It could actually be god, or it could be one of the many delusions the mind can create when it believes something. You don't need to be crazy to have that happen, just believe in something strongly enough.



and most of the logic and important things that i have asked God for I received them

You asked god for logic?:confused: I suppose logic is pretty flexible at that point.


......and why do people belive the newspaper and other non-fiction books


I don't think most believe the newspaper as the absolute truth, but as a relatively credible one since the events described have witnessess, pictures, and video to back it up.



but they don't believe in the bible wich was one of the first books in da world

There are many religious books that existed thousands of years before it actually. A lot of those religions just died off though.


and has 66 books written all in different times from different people inspired by God and it all talks about the same thing and it makes sense

Well, not perfect sence, it does have a tendency to contradict itself every so often. And of course there are a lot of events that are single, supernatural events like noah's ark or adam and eve, that have no relation to each other.
It's still not that astounding that it makes sense though, since these multiple writings had to have a single editor who put them all together who could pick and choose as he liked. In fact almost every tale in the bible dealing with the supernatural can be found in another version in an older mythology. Plus many aspects, like december 25, sunday, and Jesus's deification were adapted from pagan beliefs to unite the two prominant European faiths under one religion.




If u look at the universe, it's kind of hard not to believe in God. stars, planets, life, black holes, galaxies, quasars, plasma, all kind of light (EMS) ....
.....all from an infinitly small point. this whole universe is proof and substance of God.the laws of the universe(motion,physics,ect) are the evidence.

This reasoning is so bothersome. Instead of "the universe is so complex, lets see what causes it to be so", people just interpret everything to match up with their presupposition and say "the universe is so complex, that proves god did it!". That proves nothing. We could think up infinite explanations for why the universe is so complex, and there are probably many that we haven't even come close to understanding yet. There are so many logical physical systems in the unviverse that would create such complexity, and there are undoubtedly more to be discovered. Instead people latch on to the only one their brains can understand at the moment. You can't simply pick the one you like because it fits. Watch this:

"trillions of invisible pixies fly around the universe putting it together, and they're responsible for the complexity of life as well".
Well damn, look at black holes, stars, quazars, ecosystems... it all fits perfectly with the pixie theory. So just look around you, the pixie proof is everywhere. anybody want to start a religion around me? I mean come on, every physical system can be explained by the pixies, I clearly have all the answers.

[PureEvil760]

Everyone is from one consiousness which is God. If you relize that you share this connection its like wanting to hurt others or wanting to hurt yourself would seem very irrational.

[mrdevious]

Everyone is from one consiousness which is God. If you relize that you share this connection its like wanting to hurt others or wanting to hurt yourself would seem very irrational.


That's not far off from my beliefs PureEvil. Well, maybe I'd call them "suspicions" or something, few answers on such a scale are definitive. I don't so much feel we're "from" one consciousness though, so much as there's a "god consciousness", a higher mental existence that unites us and would completely unite us if we all somehow attained it. Everyone's so stuck on us coming from god, few seem to consider god coming from us. I'm not really an atheist, just a deityist. Good to hear your input.

[peacetrain]

Humans are the only species so full of themselves as to create a god. "Oooh, we're so important, we must have been put here for a reason!"

Truth be told, I'm not a fan of the human race thus far. Face it, we suck. What other species murders for personal gain (not food)? What other species treat each other the way we treat other humans?

We beat the shit out of this planet like a virus, spreading. Always spreading and multiplying. Shit, I just erased a bunch of text that wasn't going anywhere, but the point was supposed to be this: taking into account that 99% of all species that have ever existed on this planet are extinct, I can only hope that humans will soon end up on that list (of course, then a list wouldn't exist because there'd be no one to write it).

A world without humans would be a wonderful world, indeed.

I've actually read about theories that humans and all other species are just a highly complex form of bacteria (makes sense, since we're full of bacteria). And that all of our passions, and desires, and things we do to perpetuate our existence and survival is to spread the bacteria. Looking at any major city, it's hard not to see it as a virus on the body that is earth.