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justnillusion
12-17-2006, 06:04 AM
If god is perfect, then it stands to reason it has nothing to do with this world. Everything here decays and dies. Perfectness would never die. We created this world, that is why it is imperfect. We are still in god's heart, it is up to us to remember we're there.

Inferius
12-17-2006, 12:31 PM
The more words I write the more you have to tear apart.

delusionsofNORMALity
12-17-2006, 06:18 PM
but perfection does not necessarily beget perfection. if a perfect "being" were to create perfection it would be duplicating itself and what would be the point of that?

smoke it
12-17-2006, 06:45 PM
God is perfect, but he gave us free will. We chose our own destiny. And that is why we are imperfect.

but god knew that with the free will we have, we would fuck up the world. god did nothing to stop this. he is also imperfect

JunkYard
12-17-2006, 06:58 PM
I believe that 'someday' mankind will learn from their mistakes, and use their free will to better his creation instead of destroy it.


Love,

Lucifuge
12-18-2006, 06:02 AM
How can we have free will if God knows what we're going to do before we do it?

Off topic but, does God have a penis? In the bible, it says man was created in His image. If he does have one, what does he do with it? Why would he have one if he can't reproduce? I'm not trying to insult anybody, I'm just curious.

delusionsofNORMALity
12-18-2006, 01:03 PM
Er, God knowing what we do before we do it doesn't mean we don't have free will.... It just means he knows what choices we will make...

then is it really free will?

if we are destined to make certain choices then we are not making choices at all, but running a predetermined course. this starts to make us sound like a bunch of little automatons, running in circles toward a destiny already forseen by our creator.

doesn't that seem rather pointless?

JunkYard
12-18-2006, 02:33 PM
God knows the heart of man, but I question wether he knows every little choice we will make. On a whole I believe he knew we would fall, and knew that we must fall to appreciate the more worthy things in life, therefore he also knows that we will [eventually] learn from our mistakes, and choose the worthy over the unworthy in time.


Love,

delusionsofNORMALity
12-19-2006, 03:48 AM
...... I think it's far too complex for the human mind to comprehend.

that one freakin' line drives me CRAZY!!!

i come from a long line of ministers and heretics and i've gotten into more than my fair share of theological arguments, but they all seem to come down to that one cop out. over and over again i've listened politely as supposedly learned men have tried to "teach" me the mysterious ways of the lord and i'm not letting 'em off so easy any more.

now i realize that you are probably no biblical scholar, but don't you realize that merely saying that we can't hope to understand the mind of god is pretty much like saying "once upon a time" or "and they lived happily ever after". if the outcome is known beforehand (by man, god or plankton) then that outcome is predestined.

no ifs, ands or buts about it.

JunkYard
12-19-2006, 06:00 AM
delusionsofNORMALity has unreasonable expectations, me thinks...


:stoned:

braddog10
12-19-2006, 06:28 AM
but perfection does not necessarily beget perfection. if a perfect "being" were to create perfection it would be duplicating itself and what would be the point of that?

Wow Delusion! Your Sig. It took me a minute. That's Alices Restaurant. I wonder how many here knows what that is.

Off topic. Sorry Guys.

Creation was perfect. He set the furniture in the room just right. The tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil had to be there also.
Hard to say, and many probably won't agree but everything brought us to the place that we needed to be for right relationship, instead of blind ignorance.
The Hell we go through here prepares us to be able to enjoy what is good. The cup Jesus drank, which we all drink by the way, is a cup of "suffering and Joy". A paradox but a powerful one.

Is all the crap in the world His Fault? United is right of coarse. We made the choices.
Don't forget "God weeps with those that weep".

delusionsofNORMALity
12-19-2006, 02:19 PM
no, i'm merely pointing out that the excuse is overused. that line is used not only as an excuse but as the ultimate answer to far too many perfectly reasonable questions.

and

yes, my small rant was a bit unreasonable. it's not that i expect an immediate answer to these simple questions (the simple ones are often the hardest to explain). as a matter of fact i don't really expect an answer at all.

and

braddog; yes, the mythos is well established. create perfection with the seeds of its own destruction hidden in plain sight. doesn't it seem as though only a cruel deity would create such a no win situation. even with the possibility of eternal salvation as the expected outcome, it seems a rather vicious experiment.

and yes, it's the restaurant. you are probably one of the few here that will even recognize it. it's an old chestnut by present standards, but it brings back silly memories for me.

BLaQLiGhT
12-19-2006, 04:35 PM
...
braddog; yes, the mythos is well established. create perfection with the seeds of its own destruction hidden in plain sight. doesn't it seem as though only a cruel deity would create such a no win situation. even with the possibility of eternal salvation as the expected outcome, it seems a rather vicious experiment.

- It can't be a no win situation if people have already won. If you lose, it's because you made the choice to lose...

- This so called vicious experiment/life is a gift of love from god. Just because most people choose to lose doesn't mean everyone chooses to lose. It goes with my above opinion, people have already won and are in heaven.

- And just because god knows what we are going to do doesn't mean that he is making us do anything. It's like if you have a dog and you put food on the floor, you know the dog is going to go eat it. But that doesn't mean you made the dog eat the food. The world is not being runned by god, but by the devil. If the world was being run by god, we would be enjoying life to the max everyday with no pain. What makes me sad are people who don't believe in god and that jesus died for us. I think These people are living a life with no true meaning since when they die, they have nothing to look foward to :confused: . I'm going to a better place :D . I happy to be a part of his creations... GOD BLESS THE UNIVERSE WITH EVERYTHING IN IT AND EVERYTHING FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME TO THE END OF TIME !!

Delta9 UK
12-19-2006, 05:32 PM
I think These people are living a life with no true meaning since when they die, they have nothing to look foward to :confused: . I'm going to a better place :D . I happy to be a part of his creations... GOD BLESS THE UNIVERSE WITH EVERYTHING IN IT AND EVERYTHING FROM THE BEGINNING OF TIME TO THE END OF TIME !!

So because I don't beleive - I don't get into Heaven?

What kind of a god would punish me like that? hmmm? Seems a bit harsh.

...and if the Devil runs everything here what happened to hell? I thought that was made for Satan (well, lucifer - lets remember he WAS an angel) and he's supposed to sit his ass there until God stops being pissed at him. Or Christ turns up and fetches him upstairs for one major bollocking

OH, hang on - that means we are living in Hell!!!!!!!!!! Noooooooooooo!

LMAO

Stop living in fear, no god would want that - the problem with God is that People invented it.

Delta9 UK
12-19-2006, 05:34 PM
To re-iterate a little.

If god, heaven/afterlife whatever exists (truth!) then they/it exist(s) :: Full Stop, it either does or doesn't.

If I beleive it or not is of little significance - to be honest I will be a bit surprised if I'm wrong, but I'll be happy to admit I was wrong :)

Delta9 UK
12-19-2006, 07:45 PM
And no, people did not invent God. People distorted his ways.

OK - you got me, I can smoke to that :)