intelligent design > pure accident

[hazetwostep]

I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension...

we are both wondering how someone could see the complexity and intricacy of this universe (from clusters of galaxies down to atoms) and believe that there was not some sort of "higher intelligence" behind it, even if the "higher intelligence" simply aligned the big bang and just left us spinning since...

this is NOT a pro-creation stance but an intelligence behind the start of evolution question...

[MastaChronic]

I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension.....

so what your saying is you cant comprehend dark matter? what about anti matter? multi-dimension theories are more of a philosophical idea, although einsteins theory on black holes ties into the existance of alternate realities and time travel.

[hazetwostep]

i think you missed the point of the post man...

[Delta9 UK]

Just because we don't understand it, doesn't mean a higher power created it.

We once thought that about the Sun - now we know its just a regular star.

To be honest I'm amazed enough at nature without having to twat about with god, intelligent design or any of that other superstitious twaddle.

Nature is fucking amazing, chance variation kicks-ass, Chaos rules, everything is just made up of energy and collisions - how cool is that?

[hazetwostep]

you missed the angle again... i am not talking about understanding matter or science or whatever.. because in the grand scale of things we know less than 0.000000000001% of what there is to be known.

i am asking how people who see and understand the depth and complexity of this world, universe, etc. can believe it all came into existence by total chance... the complexity of the human anatomy and physiology created from an explosion?..

i (speaking for my friend and myself only) find that harder to believe than there being some form of higher power (no necessarily a spiritual entity) who designed it.. even if that higher power is just another carbon based life form within our same realm of existence that actually created our universe (which is nanoscopic to him) as a bi-product of his science project on his planet that our entire universe is just a piece of dust on.

do you get more my question now? hope so...

simply... how can you believe an explosion created complete order?

[Polymirize]

i am asking how people who see and understand the depth and complexity of this world, universe, etc. can believe it all came into existence by total chance... the complexity of the human anatomy and physiology created from an explosion?..

simply... how can you believe an explosion created complete order?

I think he got it man. His point was isn't it amazing enough that things do exist?

It's not total chance exactly, because each event provides a set of possibilities for the next event. More like dominos than some sort of "poof".

Given the amazing interrelatedness of nature isn't that incredible enough? Do you need to extend it to being consciously chosen in order to be impressed?

[Delta9 UK]

Polymirize got it in one.

In my defence I was 'thc-enabled' when I wrote that :)

And basically yes that's what I believe. I'm not saying its better/worse or anything (I know you know that) its just I don't give a lot of gravity ;) to ideas I can't see any evidence for.

The human body (like pretty much all life forms on this planet) wasn't created - it evolved. Organisms adapt to their environment or die, changes to environments select out species that are unable to evolve quickly enough (adapted) or are just plain unsuited to the change. There is plenty of evidence of this (FFS we are doing this as a species to others) and it all points to the same thing. We are made up of the same stuff as everything else is.

Chance variation aka Mutation is just one aspect. Out of deviancy comes genius imho.

We are a form of life like the others around us. We think we are special, we are most likely not. As a species we have a well developed brain compared to other animals on our planet so we can waste time on the internet arguing about who created the universe ;) At one time in history you could lose your life for such a statement.

I know its silly but really, we are well educated evolved apes ;)

[Delta9 UK]

Don't we create very small amounts of anti-matter here on earth already?

YES!

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/generalscience/anti_hydrogen_020918.html

[harris7]

yes but it isn't anything like Dan brown wrote about.

Haze,

I know were your coming from and i agree. The world is very amazing. And yes a God like being is a good explanation. But isn't the existence of a god like being far more amazing than the world. And wouldn't we want a much better explanation for that.

All i'm saying is that explaining the complexity in nature with God, is leaving us with an explanation that is far more complex and amazing than the problem.

[hazetwostep]

harris,

i hear ya... everything in the universe is cause/effect though, right? so there has to be a primary cause to start everything into motion... correct? say the big bang was caused by gases... how did the gases get there? do you follow my thinking?

that thinking combined with the fact that all of this happening by chance seems harder to grasp then the thought of a higher power (whether of a spiritual dimension or of the one we are all in)...

[harris7]

The only part of evolution that has ANYTING to do with chance is random mutations of genetics. Evolution isn't chance! it's a complex system that very particularly selects the most successful organisms and traits.

Yes if this all happened by chance it would be hard to grasp. Thats why b4 evolution was proposed most people believed in the higher power. but now we have evolution which is
1: not supernatural and 2: not random.

Evolution is also not related to the big bang theory. I dont know much about the big bang. But ti's funny how religious believers like PTS will use the big bang theory to support religion (god said let there be light) so he trusts science here on a very new theory which isn't considered fact by scientists. But he dosn't believe science when it comes to evolution, it's very selective.

[hazetwostep]

harris

what put evolution into motion then? doesn't there have to be a cause for everything natural? isn't that a law of physics (every action as an equal an opposite reaction? or am i wrong with that?

[Delta9 UK]

what put evolution into motion then? doesn't there have to be a cause for everything natural? isn't that a law of physics (every action as an equal an opposite reaction? or am i wrong with that?

The fact that the world is a dynamic environment.

Think of the first organisms the really simple ones, some of them even changed our planet - created the atmosphere we know and need today.

The world and the organisms in it have been changing since then, some would even suggest the driving force behind evolution is the genes themselves. Think of them as "selfish genes" - organisms compete to ensure their genetic line is expressed.

Genes control a great deal in the animal kingdom - its right before your eyes, you don't see harmony in nature you are actually seeing a fine balance of constant struggle.

Now this is just a theory, part of a greater theory I guess - but you see my point.

[Pass That Shit]

"Evolution is also not related to the big bang theory. I dont know much about the big bang. But ti's funny how religious believers like PTS will use the big bang theory to support religion (god said let there be light) so he trusts science here on a very new theory which isn't considered fact by scientists. But he dosn't believe science when it comes to evolution, it's very selective."

Harris,
Just to clarify. I believe in science. God can't be detected by science.

Look at it this way. If a man builds a computer. The man can turn the computer on and off as he pleases.
The components in the system don't know why they exist, they just do their job when they are energized.
They don't know who made them. I believe in the science that makes the machine run. But to me, the electricity is life.
Doesn't science point to a grand design? From a master mind?

And you're correct. I'm selective about facts of man. Not selective about the word of God though. :pimp:

[JackdaWack]

Arent the first two choices exactly the same..... Electricity is life????? last time i checked it killed anything that it touches. If your going to belive in Evolution and not god, then u must be intellectual on the points science makes. Anything from Physics chemisty and mathmatics. Everything derives from something And things dont disipate so to say. Other then half-lifes, everything is in a circular motion, what we use in this world get put right back into it, everything comes from something. Electricity is derived from positive electrical charges, its man made on a large scale.

[harris7]

harris

what put evolution into motion then? doesn't there have to be a cause for everything natural? isn't that a law of physics (every action as an equal an opposite reaction? or am i wrong with that?

I have no idea! No one does, people only pretend to

I dont know what you belive haze, but if you believe that supports a belief in god you are mistaken. Because by the same logic God would need a cause, so your only delaying the big question by popping god in there

[JunkYard]

Was time created, or is it eternal? I know it's a manmade concept, but that doesn't change the view that it is actually timeless.

"Time is timeless in the eyes of time, yet time is the essence of all things"

Some things that are, just are...


Love,

[Pass That Shit]

Time was created. I believe I will live outside of time. There will be no keeping track of time since the day doesn't end. :pimp:

[hazetwostep]

I have no idea! No one does, people only pretend to

I dont know what you belive haze, but if you believe that supports a belief in god you are mistaken. Because by the same logic God would need a cause, so your only delaying the big question by popping god in there


harris, that question does not arrive as my belief is that the universe that we exist in was created from a "higher power" in a different dimension/realm/existence. our universe was created with time which i believe the other does not function on, eliminating the need for a beginning.

i think that my belief is valid and of sound reasoning from my interpretation of the information around us. i believe you have the right to interpret the world around you the way you do. but i think if any human arrives at a point where they say they know the truth 100% and everyone else is 100% wrong, they are setting themselves up for failure. as technology improves we will continue to learn more, and as has happened in the past, new information will again prove old information wrong, though it was once "the scientific truth." claiming to know an absolute truth of this universe, is a pretty bold statement for a being that is less than a speck of dust in the grand scheme of things, in my opinion.

i think science is just as wrong in claiming absolute truth on matters as the religious fundamentalists are in their own way. that is why i think a key word often left out is theory, as much is. for all anyone knows some major discovery could come of dark matter that changes how all the information around us is interpreted. this could change everything like it has happened throughout history. history repeats itself.

i leave full room to be wrong in the end.. i live by my convictions as i hope all of you will continue as well...

sorry if anything in this last post is confusing. i just got a new strain of bud and it is rocking my world...

in closing, i think we can all agree to thank god or alla or evolution or whoever/wahtever for giving us weed... AMEN! ;) take it easy everyone or if peeps want to keep this talk going i am cool with that...

[Oneironaut]

For some reason, all proponents of intelligent design have refused to answer this question of mine:

If it is implausible to suggest that something as complex as life could have arisen by chance, how can you in your right mind suggest that something even more complex than life itself (namely, an intelligent designer who is complex enough not just all lifeforms but the entire universe) just *poof* came out of nowhere by accident?

[delusionsofNORMALity]

If it is implausible to suggest that something as complex as life could have arisen by chance, how can you in your right mind suggest that something even more complex than life itself (namely, an intelligent designer who is complex enough not just all lifeforms but the entire universe) just *poof* came out of nowhere by accident?

the question is answered by the religious "fact" that god has always existed, that god exists outside of time and space.

[harris7]

I think it is more reasonable to say the universe has been around for ever

[Delta9 UK]

I think it is more reasonable to say the universe has been around for ever

Define "forever" :stoned:

I think its easier to say it just 'always existed'.

Let's imagine that nothing existed before, fuck all, sweet FA - nada.

Difficult isn't it? Human brains are finite, the universe *might* not be

[hazetwostep]

harris...

why is it more probable to believe the universe has always been than a spiritual power having always been??

[harris7]

Well, this is a subject I haven’t thought much about. So by no means do I consider my answer perfect.

So we know the universe exists.
Some people do not accept that the universe could have existed forever
So they make a huge leap and say it was made by an intelligent entity.
And that this entity has existed forever.

This entity existing forever is somehow more reasonable belief than the universe existing forever.

I guess I’m just saying it takes a large unnecessary leap to make that conclusion. When the only result is postponing the mystery of creation. So it leaves just as big, actually a bigger question to be answered and demands a huge leap of faith (believing in a supernatural being).

[Euphoric]

YO JUST GOtTA GiVE PROpS to this Idea :joint1:

[TokinAsianGuy]

i was thinking about this very topic a few weeks back. and to be honest, i still haven't solidified anything in my mind yet, no concrete beliefs. "just because you can't imagine it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.." is something i like to throw in when discussing this topic with friends. when you say that, most people usually open their minds a little more.

[hazetwostep]

harris or anybody,

what in science or nature would make one lean towards a conclusion that there is in fact no higher power/being than humans? the fact that humans would want to contact it, does not mean that it would in fact contact us if it existed.

the fact that some people do wacky things in the name of this power does mean it does not exist. the fact that some followers of this "theory" claim to have full understanding of it but really don't, does not mean it does not exist.
d
what in science or nature would suggest that this higher power does in fact NOT exist and is not behind evolution? what would make this any less viable of a theory than the big bang or any other?

or is it just personal opinion that concludes so surely that it is not viable?

[harris7]

I try not to argue for God's inexistence, I try to find the arguments for god's existence. Haven’t found any good ones yet and I’ve looked long and hard

[braddog10]

For some reason, all proponents of intelligent design have refused to answer this question of mine:

If it is implausible to suggest that something as complex as life could have arisen by chance, how can you in your right mind suggest that something even more complex than life itself (namely, an intelligent designer who is complex enough not just all lifeforms but the entire universe) just *poof* came out of nowhere by accident?

What an excellent question. The methodology of reverse engineering is fascinating. Problem is a mystery popped up in the midst of the theorem. There are mysteries. Paul in one of his epistles mentioned that he had been shown and mysteries revealed that could not be spoken. Reading your question really stumped me. continuing to read I was struck by how appropriate Delusions response was ("the question is answered by the religious "fact" that god has always existed, that god exists outside of time and space").

Your question is very interesting oneironaut, but Haze really hit it well when he said "We know less than 0.000000000001% of what there is to be known". God is not bound by time. We are. How long have we lived as it relates to timelessness. Your question still changes nothing as it relates to the fact that life here is far too complex to just have occurred. For everything to come together completely (with nothing absent) all at the same time for a cell to develop (with DNA) and for the miracle of life also to come into "being". This shouldn't be ignored.

[hazetwostep]

harris specifically but anyone is welcome to contribute,

understandable about not wanting to get into the disproving of a higher power as that is another never ending discussion.

without us getting into the actually discussion of it, could you at least give me an example of an argument or two with scientific evidence suggesting there is no existence of a higher power?

i have never heard one as this is a new question i have...it was stimulated from this pleasant and interesting discussion; leave it to the potheads to be able to have a completely civil athiest & agnostic & believer (in something) talk! imagine if the world leaders passed a piece pipe before meetings...

good times everyone...

[braddog10]

I try not to argue for God's inexistence, I try to find the arguments for god's existence. Havenâ??t found any good ones yet and Iâ??ve looked long and hard

I admire your honesty Harris. God doesn't want us to throw our minds out the window. My experience is that The Lord is seeking those whose Hearts are toward him Not Minds. He doesn't want us to just settle for acknowledging His existence but to go further in relationship where you will relate with Him, and see His hand on your life. Please don't just settle for just proof. Not trying to be an evangelist here, But ask yourself this question. Are you willing to allow God to lay His hand upon you to bring you to a place where you will Know Him?

Get beyond your head here. There are some doors that we must open. We control the lock and key. I admire your search also Harris.
"Those who seek me shall find me. When they search for me with their whole heart".Jeremiah 29:13

Then I will give them a heart to know Me, that I am the LORD; and they shall be My people, and I will be their God, for they shall return to Me with their whole heart. Jeremiah 24:7

This is a work that he does. The door we open is one of willingness for His access.

Behold I stand at the door and knock. Any man who opens the door I will come in and sup with him and He with me. Jesus

[mrdevious]

could you at least give me an example of an argument or two with scientific evidence suggesting there is no existence of a higher power?


That's the problem with the "disproving" requirement, you cannot find "evidence" for that which does not exist, even against it. If evidence is to exist, it must have an existent entity on which it is formed for it to exist. The evidence for the lack of a god is in the lack thereof, the logical fallacies in people's assumptions toward god's existence. Everything can exist (including god) as every scientist and sensible atheist will inarguably acknowledge. But until resonable evidence is provided to justify such an entities existence, it has no more validity than invisible teacups orbiting the sun, microscopic space-jellyfish in another galaxy, or anything else one can conjure up in the imagination.
Intelligent design is just an easy answer to fill in the space where we don't have all the answers yet. To suggest that intelligence is required for the complexity of life and the universe is just a quick answer since we haven't yet established the all the mechanisms through which existence works. When thunder and lighting couldn't be explained, it must have been Zeus. When science explained the thunder and lightening, we went to the stars and said they must be pin-pricks in the sky looking into heaven (that was an actual ancient belief in Christian Europe). When we discovered the true nature of stars, we move on to things like the beginning of the universe, the next step we haven't figured out yet.

and the question still stands; seeing as that intelligence is the most complex example of organization of matter, how can we say there was an "intelligence" required in the beginning to organize the universe, and eventually the most complex thing we've found in it yet... intelligence. our complex bodies are amazingly soffisticated and therefor could not arise without an intelligent designer, yet the intelligence of this designer which is more complex than anything found here, can arise in and of itself without the same problem.

The universe, existence, and all the mechanisms found therein are incredibly complex and varried. Human consciousness and many other wonders are just the most complex examples arising out of billions (perhapse trillions, if considering the necessary conditions) of years of inevitable varriation and growth in the complexity of natural systems.

[harris7]

harris specifically but anyone is welcome to contribute,

understandable about not wanting to get into the disproving of a higher power as that is another never ending discussion.

without us getting into the actually discussion of it, could you at least give me an example of an argument or two with scientific evidence suggesting there is no existence of a higher power?

i have never heard one as this is a new question i have...it was stimulated from this pleasant and interesting discussion; leave it to the potheads to be able to have a completely civil atheist & agnostic & believer (in something) talk! imagine if the world leaders passed a piece pipe before meetings...

good times everyone...

Haze you've reversed the process, one needs to support their own claim.
"the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim"
ie. it is your job to prove it as you cannot disprove something that dosn't exist.

You haze cannot disprove my claim:
That i have a large invisible dragon in my bedroom.

Please disprove that... you cannot. (this measure dosn't prove truth)
But if you as me to prove it:
and i cannot (the only reason i cannot prove it is because it dosn't exist)

but to answer your question the "problem of evil is an argument against the idea of "God""

check that out on wikipedia if you like.

My position on the subject is that people start out non-believers, some change their views because of something. I argue that, that "something" that makes them change their views isn't valid. And that becoming a believer is wrong.

[harris7]

what in science or nature would suggest that this higher power does in fact NOT exist and is not behind evolution?

what would make this any less viable of a theory than the big bang or any other?


what would make the "theory" of a higher power less viable than the theory of evolution is the lack of supporting data a higher power has. There is little or no evidence that exclusively supports an intelligent being. IE. there is no evidence that cannot be explained by a more realistic theory.

Science judges it's theories by a few quantifiers, by how much data they explain, their ability to predict future information and how simple the explanation is (if we have two competing theories science will always favor the simples theory) . Evolution explains an extremely large amount of data. What is more impressive is that most of the information was discovered after the theory was thought up!

[Herbal]

I just smoked with my buddy and we were discussing dark matter, multi-dimension theories, and other such things that are way beyond our scale of comprehension...

we are both wondering how someone could see the complexity and intricacy of this universe (from clusters of galaxies down to atoms) and believe that there was not some sort of "higher intelligence" behind it, even if the "higher intelligence" simply aligned the big bang and just left us spinning since...

this is NOT a pro-creation stance but an intelligence behind the start of evolution question...

I have been studying Astronomy as a hobbie for years. I am currently working towards a BS in physics and plan on getting my MS.

From a mathimatical point of view, dark matter, other dimensions, teleportation, and other crazy "Trekie" terms do exist. (Voyager pwns)

Today, mankind is able to teleport a superatom half a meter (ez material: http://www.research.ibm.com/quantuminfo/teleportation/ ), store and retrieve binary bits on photons (Quantum computers, read more: http://www.cs.caltech.edu/~westside/quantum-intro.html )

Even though I have a very artistic and creative mind (Play violin) I like to base my logic on science. I believe in evolution. Even the finches Darwin studied have continued to evolve and will continue to.

Where did the big bang come from? The last big crunch. Do some reading.

Let me know if you got any questions about black holes, worm holes, white holes, and other thing. If you got questions about tachyon particles and what not, let me know. I will try to explain it clearly if I'm not to stoned.

[braddog10]

Haze you've reversed the process, one needs to support their own claim.
"the burden of proof rests on the person making the claim"
ie. it is your job to prove it as you cannot disprove something that dosn't exist.

You haze cannot disprove my claim:
That i have a large invisible dragon in my bedroom.

Please disprove that... you cannot. (this measure dosn't prove truth)
But if you as me to prove it:
and i cannot (the only reason i cannot prove it is because it dosn't exist)

but to answer your question the "problem of evil is an argument against the idea of "God""

check that out on wikipedia if you like.

My position on the subject is that people start out non-believers, some change their views because of something. I argue that, that "something" that makes them change their views isn't valid. And that becoming a believer is wrong.

I'm asking God to open your eyes to see something. There is something prophetic here. I know it sounds very strange. bear with me here. Your paradigm will radically change.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and Lean not to your own Understanding Proverbs 3:5

[mrdevious]

I'm asking God to open your eyes to see something. There is something prophetic here. I know it sounds very strange. bear with me here. Your paradigm will radically change.

Trust in the Lord with all your heart and Lean not to your own Understanding Proverbs 3:5

"lean not to your own understanding"? :confused:

I preferre the Buddha's "Believe nothing, no matter where you hear it, no matter who has said it, even if I have said it, unless it makes sense to your own logic and common sense".

Telling an atheist he/she will find god through intellectual submission to an unproven entity is not going to convince him/her. When people say "submit to gods will and you will find him", and outsider such as myself views this as "submit to the belief until the part of your mind that question's it goes silent".

My personal belief is that true salvation lies in humanities understanding of the universe and its workings. When we understand everything in existence and how to control it, we will then have control over our own existence parallel to that of the illusionary god we worship.

If any of you wish to believe in god, I'm certainly not going to convince you otherwise. But I would ask that you at least hold philisophical belief over doctrine. Philisophical belief is open to intellectual interpretation, discussion, exploration, and change. Doctrine chisseles a belief in stone and has been responsible for thousands of years of oppression, particularily of those seeking to make progress at the expense of the doctrine of dominant powers (that includes religious, political, and otherwise). Believe what you think is right, but don't supress all else to others or yourself. Everything, including our knowledge, is ultimately impermanent.

[braddog10]

"lean not to your own understanding"? :confused:

I preferre the Buddha's "Believe nothing, no matter where you hear it, no matter who has said it, even if I have said it, unless it makes sense to your own logic and common sense".

Telling an atheist he/she will find god through intellectual submission to an unproven entity is not going to convince him/her. When people say "submit to gods will and you will find him", and outsider such as myself views this as "submit to the belief until the part of your mind that question's it goes silent".

My personal belief is that true salvation lies in humanities understanding of the universe and its workings. When we understand everything in existence and how to control it, we will then have control over our own existence parallel to that of the illusionary god we worship.

If any of you wish to believe in god, I'm certainly not going to convince you otherwise. But I would ask that you at least hold philisophical belief over doctrine. Philisophical belief is open to intellectual interpretation, discussion, exploration, and change. Doctrine chisseles a belief in stone and has been responsible for thousands of years of oppression, particularily of those seeking to make progress at the expense of the doctrine of dominant powers (that includes religious, political, and otherwise). Believe what you think is right, but don't supress all else to others or yourself. Everything, including our knowledge, is ultimately impermanent.


This is a spiritual Board Mr. D. What your describing is a psychology board or forum. The ancient word psyche is the very word translated soul. Psychology is the study of the intellect emotions and will. The Word of God exhorts to learn to discern the Soul (psyche) from the spiritual. They are radically different. Many of you here do not understand this at all. Busy arguing with your minds, the Spiritual passes you by. Full of mysteries.

It's like 2 dimensional world telling others what 3 dimensional world looks like. Pretty ridiculous.

[mrdevious]

I've yet to see actual evidence that the spiritual aspect of ourselves is separate from our mental processes. In fact I get the feeling that it's entirely based on assumption to comfort those who need something to be mysterious and unexplainable to have validity.

[hazetwostep]

harris

i know we could go back and forth on this, but i find all you said very interesting and very mind stratching as i continue searching... i guess for me though the higher power seems to be the easier and more logical explanation.

this is especially in light of personal experience and interaction that i believe i have had in spiritual searching. i guess if you have never experienced that, it would be hard to understand.. i must include that into my calculation and so far i am led to the conclusion of that existence... though i will admit that my understanding of this infinite concept is limited very much by my finite mind. then again i think we all admit we know very little in the grand scheme of things... (96% of matter energy still unstudied)

if we lower the question down to a base asking if i have hard, undisputable evidence of the existence of this higher power, i do not otherwise i would be famous and all over the news! but i never claimed to.. i simply started a post trying to better understand the angle some people come from in life and you have given me a very good glimpse of that! thank you... good luck in your continued search for truth... as we all try to piece the clues around us together to figure out the puzzle of life and existence. i hope you find personal fullfillment in life wherever that is... peace

[Oneironaut]

What an excellent question. The methodology of reverse engineering is fascinating. Problem is a mystery popped up in the midst of the theorem. There are mysteries. Paul in one of his epistles mentioned that he had been shown and mysteries revealed that could not be spoken. Reading your question really stumped me. continuing to read I was struck by how appropriate Delusions response was ("the question is answered by the religious "fact" that god has always existed, that god exists outside of time and space").

Your question is very interesting oneironaut, but Haze really hit it well when he said "We know less than 0.000000000001% of what there is to be known". God is not bound by time. We are. How long have we lived as it relates to timelessness. Your question still changes nothing as it relates to the fact that life here is far too complex to just have occurred. For everything to come together completely (with nothing absent) all at the same time for a cell to develop (with DNA) and for the miracle of life also to come into "being". This shouldn't be ignored.
How do you know that God is not bound by time? How do you know anything about God at all, if God is imperceptible and undetectable?

Saying God is mysterious is no argument at all. I could just as easily say the Flying Spaghetti Monster is mysterious, and since we know so little about the universe, he must be there. Oh, and he doesn't follow the rules of logic, so I can say anything illogical about him and you'll just have to accept it even if you're totally incapable of comprehending it.

Saying that life is too complex to have arisen on its own, but that a life-designer who is more complex than life itself is not too complex to have arisen on its own, is plain illogical. Just saying there's a lot about the universe we don't know does not change that fact. There is indeed a lot we don't know, but we know there are no circular triangles, for logic applies everywhere. The fact that you have to resort to nullifying the rules of logic to account for the existence of your God is the proof that your God does not exist.

[mrdevious]

Not to mention


life here is far too complex to just have occurred. For everything to come together completely (with nothing absent) all at the same time

this speaks volumes about the ignorance behind creationism. Absolutely no understanding of the gradual and complex processes that evolution works through, instead it's "Everything just came together". No gradual process, no specifics on mechanism of action, no research into how life can evolve. Instead everything is just assumed to be *poof* one big result from trillions and trillions of accidents all coming together by coincidence. I really wish people would educate themselves before jumping to overly-simplistic conclusions.

[Herbal]

Not to mention



this speaks volumes about the ignorance behind creationism. Absolutely no understanding of the gradual and complex processes that evolution works through, instead it's "Everything just came together". No gradual process, no specifics on mechanism of action, no research into how life can evolve. Instead everything is just assumed to be *poof* one big result from trillions and trillions of accidents all coming together by coincidence. I really wish people would educate themselves before jumping to overly-simplistic conclusions.

I with him on this one. Think about all the stars in our galaxy. We even have planets orbiting other suns in our system. Now if you were to take out all the stars in the sky that belonged to our system, the brightest thing left shining would be the Andromeda Galaxy, just one of the many thousand galaxies that shine its light onto the earth.
Now based on that, if you think we are the universe was created soley for us humans, go right ahead. I personally think that with all the odds out there that there had to be a correct set of circumstances for life to have existed. Besides, we have already discovered proof that very simple life has existed outside of our world.
Plus to think that this HUGE universe was created only for the benifet of mankind is just as egotistical as declaring your god the only thing that brought about existence.
If God created existence, where did God come from?
Look, based on what I know, I was raised Christian and went to church for years but have also spent alot of time studying our reality with science and math. So to sum it up;
It is just as possible for "God" to have made everything as it is for man to have created "God" to explain the unknown to fill this empty hole in mans mind.
As technology increases everyday and with newer scientific breakthroughs, I believe that mankind will eventually abandon his notion of god, just as his views and beliefs about that god have changed throughout our own history.
You know Jewism use to be a Polytheistic religion before Moses? Infact, the first people to exercise monotheism were the Egyptians, ironicly around the same time they had a bunch of slaves...

[harris7]

Plus to think that this HUGE universe was created only for the benifet of mankind is just as egotistical as declaring your god the only thing that brought about existence.


This dips into my own thoughs, thoughts too complex for this message board, it took me 2+ hours to explain to dutch.lover why i'm pro-choice.
crazy


anyways, egotistical is a very important point. Humans are egotistical, we desire to be superior. I believe this is a biological tendency, something along the lines of trying to be the Alpha-male. I believe it to be the motive behind bullying and similar.

Our innate egotistical nature is why the church placed the earth at the center of the universe; it is also the reason we were created in gods image, and why he gave us his only son. Because we like to feel important!

Who wouldn't join something that tells them they are superior. I would think most people, look at Germany in the WW2. I've studied the racial sciences which are also illogical, but guess what, it didn't matter. People still flocked to the idea of being superior to Jews/blacks and so on.

This is why the church for years fought against the idea that the earth orbited the sun. It makes earth equal to all other planets.
And it is the same reason the church will resist evolution. It places man as EQUALS with all over life.


This is our nature and the church has just capitalized on it!

[hazetwostep]

mrdevious...
i think you have a great point, just focused the wrong directions. it is not creationism (in my opinion) that simplifies evolution so much... it is the people who follow it without researching or exploring themselves, which way too many creationists do. this thread has so stretched my mind (as i often has the simplistic poof evolution thoughts) that it really has me thinking about the whole intelligent design arguement. i can't say that my opinion has changed, but you all have very much so opened my mind to different thoughts and possibilities. thanks... remember that it is not so much creationism but the ignorant who blindly follow it. you all have me thinkg! which is cool...

[Mosiah]

Im open minded towards everything, even the possibility (GASP!) that everything I believe is wrong. I really dont know if there's a higher power out there, but it's not impossible.