Learn to defend yourself - it could save your life

[Return of the redi]

Learn to defend yourself - it could save your life [Brit advising Brit]
The Sunday Telegraph (UK) ^ | November 14, 2004 | By Karyn Miller


Posted on 11/14/2004 8:56:25 AM PST by aculeus


Imagine the worst. It's 3am, you've been woken by a strange noise in the kitchen. Sleepy-eyed and scared, you go downstairs. Before you can reach for the light switch, you come face-to-face with a burglar. What do you do?

"You have to react quickly," warns Martin Beale, a self-defence specialist and home security adviser. "The choices are simple: fight or flight.

"You must know this in advance, to prepare yourself as much as you can. Will you run or will you stand your ground? What if the burglar is armed? Condition your mind to say: 'If this happens, this is what I will do'.

"To disarm an intruder, you need great presence of mind and skill. Even soldiers who are trained to kill cannot always find it within themselves to fire their weapons in anger.

"If you are going to start something, you will have to finish it - you aren't going to get a second chance.

"If he is determined to beat the daylights out of you and you hurt him but only slightly, he will be a wounded animal and who knows what will happen?

"If you are going to go for it, you have to go for it 110 per cent. If you cannot frighten him off, you have to disarm him and hit him until he cannot move."

So what does "going for it 110 per cent" involve?

Mr Beale, 45, who is the managing director of Praetorian Associates, a team of former military personnel who provide security services to prominent individuals around the world, and equip international police forces and special forces with body armour, says that there are many ordinary household objects that can serve as defensive weapons. The kitchen, in particular, is littered with potential missiles.

"Items such as the kettle and cafetiere are good to throw, because they are heavy," says Mr Beale, who also served in the Territorial Army for 20 years. "Jars, or anything made of glass, are good too. Rain them down."

A kitchen chair sailing through the air or lying on the ground is an effective, if temporary, obstruction. As our graphic shows, any sharp-ended object, such as wooden spoon, a pen or a toothbrush, can be turned into a weapon.

Mr Beale's instructions are clear: if an intruder comes for you, use everything you have - your hands, your teeth and your elbows - to repel or disable him. Poke, jab and strike at his eyes, nose and throat. Thumbs gouged into corners of eyes and fingers pushed up noses as far as they will go are particularly effective. Bend fingers backwards, quickly, until they snap - this is more easily achieved than might be thought.

Contrary to popular belief, the groin is a predictable target and should not be aimed at first.

Run your fingers across the intruder's scalp and grab a handful of hair in your fist. This is a simple technique that causes a great deal of pain and should distract an aggressive intruder. Do your best to force the intruder to the floor. Once he is there, do not let him get up again.

If you use a tight head-lock to choke the intruder, applying pressure to the carotid artery in the neck, bear in mind that cutting off the blood supply to the brain for more than five seconds can cause death. However, if the move is carried out effectively you will be in a position to dictate the situation.

Mr Beale demonstrated his advice last week at the the East Sussex home of Major Roderick Petley, 71, pictured above in his home, and his wife Victoria, 62, who earlier this year were raided by a gang of violent burglars. The gang smashed their way in with a hydraulic battering ram and stole items worth £3,500. The Petleys have since spent £32,000 on home security improvements, but fear a return visit.

While Mr Beale stressed that knowing how and when to fight back against intruders was important, there was no shame in choosing flight. Fighting back contradicts police advice, which is for householders to escape to a locked room and dial 999. Also, under the current law, which, according to an ICM poll in last week's Sunday Telegraph, 70 per cent of the population view as inadequate, householders who resort to self-defence could find themselves charged with assault and even sued for compensation by their burglars.

For those who decide to run, Mr Beale recommends a heavy door wedge.

"Even if its lock is broken, a solid door cannot rise an inch on its hinges. With a good wedge stuck under it, the door would have to be smashed into pieces or taken off its hinges altogether if the burglar wanted to get in."

For those who choose to stick it out, or who are obliged to do so, the first step is to bellow as loudly as possible.

"Body language counts for a lot. The moment you stand up, walk and shout with authority, people think twice. This applies to anyone, even the elderly. If somebody has breached the boundary of your property, your voice and presence can be enough to deter them."

Clear thinking and decisive action are needed during any confrontation. "There's nothing magical about what I have showed you," said Mr Beale when he had trained the Petleys to use his techniques.

"What it comes down to is an awareness of your own abilities, and common sense. Just make sure you know how far you can go." Mrs Petley, whose husband served in the Rifle Brigade (now the Royal Green Jackets) from 1952 to 1964, was impressed. "I was surprised to discover all that I could do, which is more than I had thought," she said. "I had no idea that so many of the things we have lying around could be used in such ways.

"What I have learnt today has been wonderful. I hope that I will never have to use it - but who knows what will happen?"

She has now invited Mr Beale back to teach the same techniques to her neighbours and friends.

[Return of the redi]

Kind of self explanitory, I thought. But there you are.

[Euphoric]

this belongs in the politics forum because... :confused: you're really high?

[Return of the redi]

Oh I DO apologise. Please forgive me.

[Herbaholic00]

Euphoric said it all


Peace

[Return of the redi]

In Britain, there is a debate about householders having the right to defend themselves in their own homes. Guns are illegal, so other methods have to be found.
This was an article that was written very much with that POLITICAL debate in mind.

Is that OK, sir?

[rufusthestuntbum]

the worst. It's 3am, you've been woken by a strange noise in the kitchen. Sleepy-eyed and scared, you go downstairs. Before you can reach for the light switch, you come face-to-face with a burglar.


Try waking up from this paranoid fantasy.



Will you run or will you stand your ground? What if the burglar is armed?



What percent of burglars are 1) armed 2) looking to fight not run and 3) doing b and e at 3 AM when you can be sure there is no one home by knocking at 10 AM?

Sorry this shit just doesnt happen. And if you got by security system, I wish you all the best getting by my dogs.
All this self defence shit gives people false confidence, call 9-11 or in your case 999. Confronting a guy unarmed is moronic.

[Return of the redi]

What planet are you on? Can I come live there?
In Britain this situation happens all the time.

"What percent of burglars are 1) armed 2) looking to fight not run and 3) doing b and e at 3 AM when you can be sure there is no one home by knocking at 10 AM?"

1) Armed with a tool of some kind that can do damage to your person? About 100%, give or take.

2) I'd say it's about half and half. Personally, I don't like those odds.

3) All burglaries happen at 10am? That's handy. Do the police know about this? I must say, it's jolly nice of Mr Burglar to be so methodical.

[Euphoric]

sorry
dont get your suitcase in a riot :p
sticks and stones :D
:cool:

[Torog]

this belongs in the politics forum because... :confused: you're really high?
Howdy Euphoric,

This belongs in the politics forum,because it illustrates the stupidity of spine-less political correctness,because the decision to ban guns in Britain,was voted on by British voters,thereby putting themselves in this position on non-deterrence to violent and armed criminals.

STAY SAFE - STAY ARMED!

Have a good one...Torog

[ineedskillz]

LOL poor Torog..Alway's getting abused for being a patriotic American.
And Bbasher Have you led a shelterd life..? There's more people in the UK that have gun's than what you think.

[thecrackbaby]

3) All burglaries happen at 10am? That's handy. Do the police know about this? I must say, it's jolly nice of Mr Burglar to be so methodical.



Yeah actually the police do know this. Residential burglaries day time, commercial nite time. Go fucking ask them. I can read my local community paper and see the trend quite clearly. All occur either during the day or during a long vacation, which also means during the day.They want to rip you off and run, if they wanted to use violence they could rob someone at an ATM. What would you do if you were a criminal, go for a house you know is empty, or chance a house that may be occupied? Dont give me the crazy junkie excuse either, thats the sound of a poor little englishman who wants a gun and doesnt mind lying about shit for his agenda.
If armed burglars breaking into occupied houses at nite happened regularly there would be way more in the paper, and on the front page. It just doesnt happen.
Rufus (banned)

[Torog]

Oh my god your a retard Torog. Armed criminals? You f*cking dumb-sh*t, there are no armed criminals because there are no guns. You think you need a gun to protect yourself from everything? The only thing you need a gun to protect yourself from is someone else with a gun. If a cat scratches you do you take out a desert eagle and blow it away? Have you even been to Britain before? Worst crime we get here on a regular basis is an old lady getting mugged by some townies. I'm glad I live in a country where I know I won't get shot, full stop.

Have a good one you inbred yank, HAHAHA! Prick.

Laters everyone, this board sucks.
If a criminal shows up at your house with a crowbar or a hammer,in order to break in,they are armed with a deadly weapon. If you think that criminals don't have guns because of laws banning them-then it is you--who's the dumb-ass. lol Daggum..you're in for a rude awakening...lol.

[Torog]

LOL poor Torog..Alway's getting abused for being a patriotic American.
And Bbasher Have you led a shelterd life..? There's more people in the UK that have gun's than what you think.
Howdy ineedskillz,

I tell you what..this here country..has gone nuts..since I was growing up..lol.

Have a good one...Torog :D

[Return of the redi]

Crikey, some peoples worlds are so ordered!
Burglaries at 10pm, guns extinct in countries that ban them, Mr Burglar a 'take it or leave it' kind of guy that's no more likely to harm you than the milkman.
Which part of Britain are these people living in?
Where I come from (Luton) you are lucky if you go all year without someone in your street being murdered, let alone burgled. Drugs are available on all good street corners, as are guns, and 'respect' is the only thing that matters. And the only way to gain said respect is to be a bit of a villain.
Junkies on the other hand don't care about respect, they just care about their next fix, and getting the money to pay for it.

And if you're going to come at me with such imaginative, thought provoking insults as "you fucking cock" you can save your typing hand!

I don't know how you can be bothered, Torog.

[Libertarian Toker]

You know europe is sounding kind of like it may have a high rate of crime. Mugging little old ladys all the time, robbing and stealing, guns and killings. Poor Theo, shot and stabbed! Damn, that sucks! You may not get shot at as much, but you ain't making it out of there with any of your stuff, and you may get beaten or stabbed in the proccess of getting it ripped off. What kind of people are you anyway? Good grief, riots for football games, riots for this, riots for that. Your about as violent and criminal like as any country on earth. I got a feeling your crime against old lady's is so bad because everyone knows granny ain't got no gun in that bag. It makes big tough englishmen wanna mug little old granny knowing she can do nothing to stop them.


Toker

[heartsurgerysurviver]

Oh my god your a retard Torog. Armed criminals? You fucking dumb-shit, there are no armed criminals because there are no guns. You think you need a gun to protect yourself from everything? The only thing you need a gun to protect yourself from is someone else with a gun. If a cat scratches you do you take out a desert eagle and blow it away? Have you even been to Britain before? Worst crime we get here on a regular basis is an old lady getting mugged by some townies. I'm glad I live in a country where I know I won't get shot, full stop.

Have a good one you inbred yank, HAHAHA! Prick.

Laters everyone, this board sucks.


Button basher
You have some nerve , and lack of brains, to call ANYONE names like [retard, fucking dumb shit, inbred yank, and prick].
Mods, please ban members who show this much disrespect for others. THERE are ways to respond intelligently, this isn't one of them. gezzzz shaking my head. If your points are so weak you have to resort to name calling, shut the hell up!!!!!!
peace heart
I await a mods response
thanks

[Libertarian Toker]

Man, that sucks! I hate to see people call for someone to be banned. Torog is a big boy now, and can handle these types of people himself rather well. Hell, I bet he likes seeing liberals lose their cool. That means he has hit a nerve. If you ban all the fun people, this place will get boring.

Toker

[GHoSToKeR]

i agree with LT! dont call for people to be banned! torog can handle himself pretty well, hes a big guy lol :)

but LT, hey, what was with all that England insulting ? not that i care, i dont live there :)

[Libertarian Toker]

Just listen to how they talk about it themselves. All I was doing was commenting on what they were saying. Dude said granny was getting mugged all the time, so I believe that it may be true. He was saying that it wasn't that bad that granny was being mugged a lot, it was no big deal. Others were saying crime was everywhere you looked. To me that means crime is common place in England, if not all of Europe. So much so that they don't see granny being mugged all the time as any kind of real problem. They don't paint much of a picture of Europe, or England anyway.

Toker

[The C]

I say the goverments law shoudl reflect the peoples laws, if the poeple cant have guns, neither can their miliatary....

And think of what we can do with the present military budget, hell we can use it to feed countries which are envious of us.

We can save the world......

Just an on the spot idealisic thought.

What if we could polie the the gov;t...?

The C

[Torog]

Man, that sucks! I hate to see people call for someone to be banned. Torog is a big boy now, and can handle these types of people himself rather well. Hell, I bet he likes seeing liberals lose their cool. That means he has hit a nerve. If you ban all the fun people, this place will get boring.

Toker
Howdy LT,

Thanx for them kind words..and yer right..I'm 10 foot tall..and Wall to Wall..-I've only begun to fight !!! Yeeehhhaaawww !!! :D

Have a good one...Torog :D

[heartsurgerysurviver]

Hi Lt and Ghost
I found button's post to be inmature and uncalled for. It WASN"T button's calling TOROG those names but ANYONE being called those names!!!!!
There are ways to express one's self without the name calling.
Are members here allowed to say anything offensive?
I still say ban them.
people like that aren't needed here IMO
you all have a great day
peace
heart

[Kombucha]

Very few criminals in the UK have guns, especially not petty criminals as they are so difficult to get hold of. Most burglars are just guys that want to grab some stuff then run off, they are rarely armed with anything. However, kitchen knives are often grabbed by panicing burglars. In most cases self defence techniques can be used, as burglars do not go looking for a fight. Just shouting at them to fuck off will often make them take off, they aren't the mafia, just cowardly twats who want some money.

[Libertarian Toker]

Very few criminals in the UK have guns, especially not petty criminals as they are so difficult to get hold of. Most burglars are just guys that want to grab some stuff then run off, they are rarely armed with anything. However, kitchen knives are often grabbed by panicing burglars. In most cases self defence techniques can be used, as burglars do not go looking for a fight. Just shouting at them to fuck off will often make them take off, they aren't the mafia, just cowardly twats who want some money.

That is kind of funny that you would think telling a panicing criminal that just grabbed a knife to fuck off would cause him to run from grannys house. I can picture it now. As the criminal is running for the door in a paniced fear from the raging granny with the foul mouth he yells, "mug ya later bitch". It would seem little old ladys are fair game in England, and I doubt criminals would just pick houses to rob were people that could defend themselves lived. Sorry granny, but in England your a prime target.

Toker

[maryjanemama]

I have a dog that barks at the slightest noise, but we also have guns in the house. I don't think a burglar would think twice about shooting my dog or me. Burglars that are tweaked out on meth or crack will do WHATEVER it takes to get money or something they can sell for money. Unless you are a skilled fencer, I don't think a big knife is going to help the situtation at all. The same goes for a bat. I'm 5' 6" and a chick, what the hell am I going to do to an armed, drugged out robber with a gun, if I'm waving a bat around? Die. That's about it.

[Libertarian Toker]

Hi Lt and Ghost
I found button's post to be inmature and uncalled for. It WASN"T button's calling TOROG those names but ANYONE being called those names!!!!!
There are ways to express one's self without the name calling.
Are members here allowed to say anything offensive?
I still say ban them.
people like that aren't needed here IMO
you all have a great day
peace
heart

I don't mean this in a nasty way, so don't be offended.

"I found button's post to be inmature and uncalled for.:

I find your post to be inmature and uncalled for.

"It WASN"T button's calling TOROG those names but ANYONE being called those names!!!!!"

Sticks, stones, you know the drill. They are just words, they can not hurt you unless you let them.

"There are ways to express one's self without the name calling."

And there are ways to deal with loudmouths without banning them.

"Are members here allowed to say anything offensive?"

Are we not allowed to say anything offencive? Are you the one to tell me what is offencive to me?

"people like that aren't needed here IMO"

Sure they are! How are they going to learn if they don't get a chance to see? What kind of people do you think we need here anyway? Blond hair? Blue eyes? Assholes are people too! Don't discriminate against them. I happen to be one, and I find it offencive when assholes get banned for just being themselves.

Toker

[Libertarian Toker]

Just to be fair to England, we ain't no better.............

http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=0&aid=1120052529_5301_lead_story

AUBURN HILLS, Mich. - Players and fans exchanged punches in the stands as an NBA game turned so ugly a police investigation was necessary. Indiana's Ron Artest and Stephen Jackson charged into the stands and fought with fans in the final minute of their game against the Detroit Pistons on Friday night, and the brawl forced an early end to the Pacers' 97-82 win.

"I felt like I was fighting for my life out there," Pacers coach Rick Carlisle said. "I'm sorry the game had to end this way."

Officials stopped the game with 45.9 seconds remaining after pushing and shoving between the teams spilled into the stands once fans got involved by throwing things at the players near the scorer's table.

About three hours following the startling finish, Auburn Hills police walked out of a television trailer with videotapes gathered from various media outlets.

Officers interviewed witnesses at the arena in suburban Detroit, and planned to talk to the players involved in the melee.

"We'll put it all together, take it to the Oakland County Prosecutors Office and have them review it and they'll decide if there are any charges," Auburn Hills Deputy Chief Jim Mynsberge said. "I hope we can do it before Thanksgiving."

Mynsberge added: "At this time, we don't have any indication of major injuries."

That's probably the only fortunate fact.

"There's no place in the game for what went on with this incident," said Joe Dumars, the Pistons' president of basketball operations. "It was just an ugly scene."

Detroit's Larry Brown, who started coaching in 1972 after his playing career ended, said it was the ugliest thing he had seen as a coach or player.

After several minutes of players fighting with fans in the stands, a chair, beer, ice and popcorn were thrown at the Pacers as they made their way to the locker room in one of the scariest brawls in an NBA game.

It all started when Detroit's Ben Wallace went in for a layup and was fouled hard by Artest from behind, and escalated when Artest stormed into the stands after being hit by a full cup.

After being fouled, Wallace wheeled around and pushed Artest in the face. The benches emptied and punches were thrown.

As the players continued shoving each other near center court and coaches tried to restore order, Artest sprawled out on his back on the scorer's table, looking relaxed.

Just when it appeared tempers had died down, Artest was struck by a cup thrown from the stands and jumped up and charged into the stands, throwing punches as he climbed over seats.

"He was on top of me, pummeling me," fan Mike Ryan of Clarkston said. "He asked me, `Did you do it? I said, `No, man. No!'"

Jackson joined Artest in the melee and threw punches at fans, who punched back at them.

Security personnel and ushers tried to break it up. Former Pistons player Rick Mahorn, who was seated courtside as a Detroit radio analyst, tried to stop the brawl in the stands. Detroit's Rasheed Wallace and Indiana's David Harrison were also in or near the stands trying to break up the fights.

Later, a man in a Pistons jersey approached Artest on the court, shouting at him. Artest punched him in the face, knocking him to the floor. Teammate Jermaine O'Neal stepped in and punched another man who joined the scrum.

"The NBA is withholding comment until it can review the incident," NBA spokesman Tim Frank said.

Players from both teams left the arena without comment.

Quentin Richardson of the Phoenix Suns watched the brawl on television.

"I have never seen a fight like that in a game since I was in high school," he said. "Man, there are going to be some lawsuits. You don't think some of those fans aren't going to want some NBA money?"

Police prevented reporters from crossing the loading dock to get to Indiana's locker room or the area where the Pacers' bus was located.

"I'm just embarrassed for our league and disappointed for our young people to see that," Brown said.

Artest has been involved in some bizarre situations, but his latest antics topped them all.

Earlier this month, he was benched for two games for asking Carlisle for time off because of a busy schedule that included promoting a soon-to-be released rap album.

Artest also destroyed television monitors at Madison Square Garden two years ago and missed the team flight to Game 6 of the Eastern Conference finals at Detroit last season.

Before the contest was stopped, Artest had quite a game and the Pacers were dominating the defending NBA champions in their first meeting since the Eastern Conference finals.

Artest scored 17 of his 24 points in the first quarter and the Pacers led by 20 in the second. Detroit used a 9-0 outburst early in the fourth quarter to close within 82-77, but couldn't get closer.

Indiana's next game is Saturday night at home against Orlando, while Detroit hosts Charlotte on Sunday.

[Torog]

I have a dog that barks at the slightest noise, but we also have guns in the house. I don't think a burglar would think twice about shooting my dog or me. Burglars that are tweaked out on meth or crack will do WHATEVER it takes to get money or something they can sell for money. Unless you are a skilled fencer, I don't think a big knife is going to help the situtation at all. The same goes for a bat. I'm 5' 6" and a chick, what the hell am I going to do to an armed, drugged out robber with a gun, if I'm waving a bat around? Die. That's about it.
Howdy MaryJaneMama,

I agree..it's best not to bring a knife or bat..to a gunfight..lol.

Mornin LT ,

You made a good point about banning jerks,one can invoke the ignore option if need be..I prefer to lead by example..

Have a good one y'all...Torog :D

[Kombucha]

No a bat or a knife in a gunfight is no use, but the point is, we DO NOT HAVE GUNFIGHTS IN THE UK. No one can get hold of a gun. Burglars are rarely armed. And yes they do often run if you act like you aren't scared. They do not want to be caught and will almost certainly be very nervous walking round someone elses house.

[heartsurgerysurviver]

Ya know Lt, you are right, i'll keep my opinions to myself in these matters in the future.
by the way I have neither blond hair or blue eyes. lol
Sorry you found my post offensive, guess you should put me on your ignore list.
Glad that feature was mentioned, I didn't know about it till now.
I was not , nor am i now,trying to tell you or anyone else what is offensive. I was stating my opinion [ I did put IMO]
I'll try to keep my posts from being offensive to you in the future.
you have a great day
heart

[Return of the redi]

You're right Toker. Granny is a target, and one that often gets hit, judging by the amount of battered grannies you see in the papers.
Stastistics say that, person for person, burglaries are more common in anti gun England than in pro gun America.
I think that more or less speaks for itself!

[Return of the redi]

And Kombucha, you keep saying there are no guns in England, so tell me where abouts you live and then I can point out, statistically of course, how very wrong you are!

[Kombucha]

Ok, I live in Kent. The very fact that anyone can buy handguns in America but no one can buy handguns in the UK is pretty good evidence that the UK does not have a lot of guns. The police don't even carry guns. They don't need them.

[Libertarian Toker]

Ok, I live in Kent. The very fact that anyone can buy handguns in America but no one can buy handguns in the UK is pretty good evidence that the UK does not have a lot of guns. The police don't even carry guns. They don't need them.


It is a neighbourhood with a reputation for drugs and violence; a place where gang rivalry has led to shootings. The police officers patrolling these streets have loaded guns in their holsters; armed units are ready to provide back up. Is this a scene from the ghettos of the United States? No, this is Nottingham in the heart of England, a country with a long tradition of unarmed police officers who walk the beat with only a truncheon for protection.

More on this story here
http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/uk/2001/life_of_crime/police.stm

[Return of the redi]

Yep, Nottingham, Manchester, Liverpool, London. It's a situation that is only getting worse.
Unless you live in Kent!

[maryjanemama]

Kombucha, believing there are no guns in England because they've been outlawed, is like believing there was no alcohol in the US during Prohibition. Smoking weed is illegal in my state in the US. Yet, I smoke it every chance I get and it's easy to find. Making something illegal doesn't make it impossible, there is always an underground.

[Herbaholic00]

believing there are no guns in England because they've been outlawed, is like believing there was no alcohol in the US during Prohibition.

Its is not hard to get hold of a gun in England. I have been offered, and several friends have been offered. You only have to know the right person if you want to get hold of a gun. (as with anything illegal)
On the other hand if you dont want to buy a gun you could always rent a gun from underground 'outlets'. I hear that renting guns is becomming increasingly more popular in the UK due to the automatic 5 years in jail if you are caught in possesion of a firearm in the UK .


Peace

[Kombucha]

There are very few guns in the UK. I do live here you know. It is very hard to get hold of them and as such very few police carry guns. Most criminals do not "know the right people," they are just losers who want to make some quick money. Only serious criminals here have guns, I see a lot of news reports about people being burgled or mugged, I hardly ever see reports like that where guns were involved.

[Herbaholic00]

Kombucha where in the UK are you from?


Only serious criminals here have guns

Sorry but this is simply not true at all, there have been several messed up "drive by" shootings recently......... not by so serious/full time criminals but by people who have watched menace to society to much.

Peace

[Kombucha]

Maybe there have been some drive bys, but as you said, that is several, not loads. The reason you hear so much about these shootings is because it is so uncommon.

"Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in this country is relatively low â?? less than half of 1 percent of all crime recorded by the police â?? and in the year ending 31 March 2004, there was:

a 15 per cent reduction in homicides involving firearms
a 13 per cent reduction in robberies involving firearms"


This is from the US:

"According to the National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) in 2003, 449,150 victims of violent crimes stated that they faced an offender with a firearm.


Incidents involving a firearm represented 7% of the 4.9 million violent crimes of rape and sexual assault, robbery, and aggravated and simple assault.


The FBI's Crime in the United States estimated that 67% of the 16,503 murders in 2003 were committed with firearms."

[Kombucha]

By the way, Return of the Redi, I should point out that the reason I posted here was to defend you as people kept slagging your first post off, saying "what if they have a gun, your post is crap"
It pointed out that there aren't many guns so your post makes sense, and now you are basically saying yourself that you were talking crap.

[Libertarian Toker]

"This is from the US"

Pointing at US won't help you much. We can always point at the swiss

Visitors to Switzerland are astonished to see guns and rifles being carried openly in public -- particularly when there is a "shooting festival" occurring nearby. In fact, Switzerland has more firepower per person than any other country in the world -- yet it is one of the safest places on Earth.

In 1997, there were 87 intentional homicides and 102 attempted homicides in the entire country -- with firearms involved in 91 of the 189 total cases.

Switzerland had a homicide rate of 1.2 per 100,000 population and a robbery rate of 36 per 100,000.

Almost half of those crimes were committed by non-resident foreigners -- whom locals call "criminal tourists."

By comparison, Britain -- which has strict gun control laws -- had a homicide rate in 1994 of 1.4 per 100,000 and a robbery rate of 116 per 100,000.
Although Switzerland has local shooting contests for boys and girls ages 12 to 16, there have been no school massacres in the country.

All males between the ages of 20 and 42 are required to keep rifles and pistols at home for purposes of national defense. Military historians do not doubt that this was a big reason Hitler chose to avoid Switzerland in favor of conquering countries which had strict gun control laws -- as well as registration lists which facilitated confiscation of firearms.

Source: Stephen P. Halbrook (attorney and author), "Where Kids and Guns Do Mix," Wall Street Journal, June 10, 1999.

For more on Gun Control Myths http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/crime51.html

[Kombucha]

That is only 17% higher murder rate. What I am saying is compared to other countries that seem to think they are safe, the UK has low gun crime.

[Return of the redi]

"By the way, Return of the Redi, I should point out that the reason I posted here was to defend you as people kept slagging your first post off, saying "what if they have a gun, your post is crap"
It pointed out that there aren't many guns so your post makes sense, and now you are basically saying yourself that you were talking crap."

But the reason I posted the article is because homeowners aren't allowed to have guns to protect themselves, not because I assumed all burglars were unarmed.
I take your point that it is still quite rare to come across an armed criminal in this country, but it is definately on the increase, and our laws as they stand are completely useless.



Gun crime figures show fresh rise


Home Office figures show a rise in gun crime
The number of firearms offences in England and Wales has risen in the last year, according to Home Office figures released on Thursday.
There has been a 3% climb in gun crime, following a 2% rise the previous year, the figures show.

The statistics also show a 35% rise in crimes involving imitation weapons.

But the figures, which cover the 12 months to June this year, also show a 15% drop in the number of shooting-related deaths.

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The prospect of 20 years in prison could deter people

James Murphy, Dorset, UK


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Home Secretary David Blunkett said police and the government would target particular areas affected by violent crime linked to drugs.

They would tackle the problem in London, the West Midlands, Greater Manchester and Nottinghamshire, Mr Blunkett told a news conference in London.

"We have a situation where crack and guns go together and because crack is a dangerous drug, that stimulates violence," he said.

Training needs

Shadow Home Secretary David Davis said the government had let gun crime get out of hand.

"No amount of government spin will hide the fact that violent crime is out of control," he said. "We now have record levels of gun crime, rocketing sex offences, a further 14% increase in violent crime and overall crime is nearly 750,000 higher than 1998."

Jan Berry, chairman of the Police Federation, called for more and better trained armed police to counter gun crime.

She said: "We urgently need more trained armed police officers throughout England and Wales to tackle the growing menace of gun crime, otherwise lives will increasingly be put at risk."



Click to compare figures year on year
BBC home affairs correspondent Andy Tighe said the government was interpreting the 3% rise in gun crime as "acceptable and predictable".

GUN CRIME: YEAR TO JUNE 04
Fatalities: 70 (-15%)
Serious injuries: 430 (no change)
Total firearms offences: 10,590 (+3%)
With replica/ imitation gun: 1,350 (+35%)
With handgun: 4,910 (-10%)
Source: Home Office recorded crime figures. Comparisons are with year to June 03

But he said the rise came on top of a "quite substantial increase" in firearms offences in recent years.

"Main cities such as Manchester, London, Birmingham and Nottingham do have special units targeting gun crime and the drugs trade, and they are having a significant amount of success."

Reassurance

Separate quarterly crime figures compiled for the Home Office in the British Crime Survey on Thursday showed that general crime was down by 7%, according to householders interviewed for the study. Crime figures recorded by police also showed a 5% fall.

The government was keen to stress that the risk of being a victim of violent crime is at its lowest for nearly 25 years.


The recent murder in Nottingham of 14-year-old Danielle Beccan has stirred fresh concerns about levels of gun crime.

She was killed in a drive-by shooting on her way home from a funfair almost a fortnight ago.




Second Danielle suspect in court

A 20-year-old Nottingham man, Mark Kelly, has been charged with her murder, while a second man aged 23 has also been charged with murder. He was due to appear in court on Thursday.

A gun amnesty is being planned for the city and a campaign to reassure the public is being brought forward.

Earlier in the month, six people were shot in the space of an hour during incidents in London and Bristol. Two people were killed in the London incident.

Smaller rises

But the Home Office figures show firearms-related deaths are comparatively rare.

Last year the number fell to 81 from 97 in the previous 12 months.

The small rises in gun crime for the last two years compare with a 34% increase recorded in 2002.

In 2003, the Home Office introduced a mandatory five-year minimum prison sentence for anyone caught in possession of an illegal firearm.

Government officials claimed there was anecdotal evidence from the police that the move is having a deterrent effect, but that it was too early for this to be reflected in Thursday's figures.

The statistics on imitation weapons come a day after figures emerged from a survey by police in Manchester which showed that more than 70% of callouts from the city's armed response units dealt with fake guns.


The government has previously ruled out a wholesale ban on imitation firearms, saying it was too difficult to find a legal definition for replicas.

[Button Basher]

Yo. Just wanna apologise for my retarded outburst near the beginning of the thread, was having a bad day, sorry y'all. You know what it's like.

[mr chinnery]

Details of the information for the period 1995 -1999 on crime recorded by police in 32 countries is given below:

Total recorded crime fell by 1% in the EU Member States and by 10% in England and Wales.

England and Wales had one of the lowest homicide rates in Western Europe for 1997-1999.

Violent crime rose by 11% on average in the EU but by 20% in England and Wales.

Domestic Burglaries fell on average by 14 % in the EU but by 31% in England and Wales.

Theft from motor vehicles rose on average by 7% in the EU but fell by 27% in England and Wales.

Drug Trafficking offences rose on average by 31% in the EU but fell by 6% in England and Wales.

England and Wales (at 125 prisoners per 100,000 general population in 1999) had one of the highest per capita rates in Western Europe.

Kombucha, are you serious when you say there are no gunfights in Britain? You're completely ill informed. From http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/guncrime/

The current situation
In some areas, gun crime is a major cause of fear and distress.

Most worrying is the rise in the number of young people carrying real or imitation firearms, either to boost their image, or from a misguided idea about self-protection. Some of this is linked to gang activity, which itself is linked to the illegal drug trade.

Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in this country is relatively low â?? less than half of 1 percent of all crime recorded by the police â?? and in the year ending 31 March 2004, there was:

a 15 per cent reduction in homicides involving firearms
a 13 per cent reduction in robberies involving firearms
Even so, we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime over recent years, and are doing everything we can to tackle it.

Didn't you hear about the gang killing the two girls in Birmingham? A friend of mine who was studying in leeds heard gunshots at night! Get your facts right.

[pisshead]

2004 gun control fact sheet.

governments don't take away guns because they care so deeply about the safety of its citizens...

http://www.gunowners.org/fs0404.htm

[braindead]

I would rather live in a place with lots of burglaries over a place with lots of gun crime. The swiss might have guns but i bet its illegal to shoot an intruder there. Gun control reduces shootings, thats all that matters. You all hear americans whine "criminals will always be able to get guns". Bullshit. When was the last bazooka or granade launcher used by a street criminal? Never because they are illegal and kept out of the country. And who cares if there is the occasional crook who gets hold of a gun? That one armed guy doesnt justify a nation of gun toting vigalantes ready to go postal as soon as they cath their wife cheating on them. Whoever siad guns are easy to get in england, well i bet you cant afford one can you? Because they illegal they are less accesible and hence more expensive. And way out of the price range of the avergae burgalar.

[mr chinnery]

Whoever siad guns are easy to get in england, well i bet you cant afford one can you? Because they illegal they are less accesible and hence more expensive. And way out of the price range of the avergae burgalar.

It's not that hard to buy a blank firing pistol, or deactivated weapon and convert it to fire live rounds. So yeah, I probably could afford one if I knew the right people.

[chris420]

They mug people with soccer balls. and there aint nothing so violent in england than their soccer games.
peace

[mr chinnery]

They mug people with soccer balls. and there aint nothing so violent in england than their soccer games.
peace

And Americans wonder why the rest of the world think they're ignorant...

[Kombucha]

I would rather live in a place with lots of burglaries over a place with lots of gun crime. The swiss might have guns but i bet its illegal to shoot an intruder there. Gun control reduces shootings, thats all that matters. You all hear americans whine "criminals will always be able to get guns". Bullshit. When was the last bazooka or granade launcher used by a street criminal? Never because they are illegal and kept out of the country. And who cares if there is the occasional crook who gets hold of a gun? That one armed guy doesnt justify a nation of gun toting vigalantes ready to go postal as soon as they cath their wife cheating on them. Whoever siad guns are easy to get in england, well i bet you cant afford one can you? Because they illegal they are less accesible and hence more expensive. And way out of the price range of the avergae burgalar.

Good first post. The very fact that the UKs police are one of the few forces around the world who do not use guns as standard is proof enough. In America almost any security guard is likely to have a gun.

It's funny how we hardly have any guns in this country, but the government hasn't taken control of us in some evil plan. In fact in my opinion we have a lot more freedom where it really matters than the USA. Americans are entitled to own deadly weapons, we get REAL freedom of speech and REAL democracy...

[psychocat]

As a martial arts instructor I would advise any of my pupils to avoid violence and call the police at the first opportunity.
As a citizen I believe in the right to defend myself with all at my disposal , I pity the burglar who ever tries to steal from me because my advise to my pupils would be forgotten and I would probably want to hurt the SoB.
Guns aren't the only weapons , in fact even a humble cig lighter can be effective if used correctly , the chinese have perfected the art of using tools and implements as weapons.

It may be because of the way I look but I have never been mugged , I do not get any aggro off anyone and compared to what I've seen of the US I believe England to be a much more peaceful and far less aggresive country.

People should be allowed to defend what is theirs but I don't think the answer is to give everyone guns , the freedom to arm yourself just results in a glut of guns that end up being bought legitamately by gangsters and criminals , this results in the situation where the police are outgunned by the badguys , not very smart!

[psychocat]

It's not that hard to buy a blank firing pistol, or deactivated weapon and convert it to fire live rounds. So yeah, I probably could afford one if I knew the right people.

Converted weapons have a nasty habit of blowing up in your hand.
A proper kosher 9mm or a machine pistol is well out of reach for your average toerag, and most people shit bricks at the idea of being sent down for 20 years , thats why guns aren't popular with brit crims.

As a former dealer I have met some real low lifes but if you mention "shooters" most of them look at you as if you are mad , the influence of US gangsta culture is causing a rise in youngsters who think it's cool to be "tooled up" and the east europeans are building strength in the inner cities which has led to a few gang related incidents , the asians in south london are feeling threatened by the yardies and control of the drug market in Kingston is also causing problems.The biggest problem faced last year by police in my area was the annual skatefest which went off without a hitch , cities will always be dangerous places.

[mr chinnery]

Converted weapons have a nasty habit of blowing up in your hand.
A proper kosher 9mm or a machine pistol is well out of reach for your average toerag, and most people shit bricks at the idea of being sent down for 20 years , thats why guns aren't popular with brit crims.

That's my point- most average toe-rags can't afford the guns so they get (naturally cheaper) re-activated ones- hence the gun problem. "Most people" doesn't include hardened criminals with no aversion to killing.

[Kombucha]

I think some of you guys watch TV too much. There are not "hardended criminals" everywhere. There are not crime lords living in mansions smoking Cuban cigars and bringing drugs in from Colombia whilst bribing police and drinking martinis all over the world.

[adh endo]

LOL poor Torog..Alway's getting abused for being a patriotic American.
And Bbasher Have you led a shelterd life..? There's more people in the UK that have gun's than what you think.


WOW your avatar is buzzy!

[adh endo]

my dealers dont have guns, nor do their suppliers, the ones ive met anyway..

not many people have guns.

guns are bad.

i dont like crime. legalise buds.