Jews Wake Up !

[Torog]

Jews Wake Up!
JERUSALEM POST ^ | Dec. 8, 2006 | Caroline Glick


Column One: Jews Wake Up!


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Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST Dec. 8, 2006

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When the history of our times is written, this week will be remembered as the week that Washington decided to let the Islamic Republic of Iran go nuclear. Hopefully it will also be remembered as the moment the Jews arose and refused to allow Iran to go nuclear.

With the publication of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group chaired by former US secretary of state James Baker III and former congressman Lee Hamilton, the debate about the war in Iraq changed. From a war for victory against Islamofascism and for democracy and freedom, the war became reduced to a conflict to be managed by appeasing the US's sworn enemies in the interests of stability, and at the expense of America's allies.

Baker and his associates claim that the US cannot win the war in Iraq and so the US must negotiate with its primary enemies in Iraq and throughout the world - Iran and Syria - in the hopes that they will be persuaded to hold their fire for long enough to facilitate an "honorable" American retreat from the country.

Like his unsupported assertion that the US cannot win in Iraq, Baker also asserts - in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary - that Iran and Syria share America's "interest in avoiding chaos in Iraq." Because of this supposed shared interest, Baker maintains that with the proper incentives, Iran and Syria can be persuaded to cooperate with a US withdrawal from Iraq ahead of the 2008 presidential primaries.

The main incentive Baker advocates offering is Israel.

Baker believes that Iran will agree to temporarily hold its fire in Iraq in exchange for US acceptance of Iran as a nuclear power and an American pledge not to topple the regime. Syria will assist the US in exchange for US pressure on Israel to hand over the Golan Heights to Syria and Judea and Samaria to Hamas.

Obviously, if implemented, the Baker-Hamilton group's recommendations will be disastrous for Israel. Just the fact that they now form the basis for the public debate on the war is a great blow. But it isn't only Israel that is harmed by their actions. The US too, will be imperiled if their views become administration policy.

Although Baker - and incoming Secretary of Defense Robert Gates who served on his commission until Bush announced his appointment last month - believes that there is a deal to be done that will end Iranian and Syrian aggression against the US, its vital interests and its allies, the fact of the matter is that there is no such deal. Contrary to what the Baker report argues and what Gates said in his Senate confirmation hearing Tuesday, Iran is not analogous to the Soviet Union and the war against the global jihad is not a new cold war.

Even if the US were to somehow get them to agree to certain understandings about Iraq, there is no reason to believe that the Iranians and Syrians would keep their word. Not only would the US be approaching them as a supplicant and so emboldening them, but to date the US has never credibly threatened anything either Syria or Iran value. Indeed, through supporting negotiations between the EU and Iran, empowering the UN to deal with Iran's nuclear program, and forcing Israel to accept a cease-fire with Hizbullah last summer that effectively gave victory to the Syrian and Iranian proxy, the US has consistently rewarded the two countries' aggression.

Worse than that, from a US perspective, although Gates admitted Tuesday that he cannot guarantee that Iran will not attack Israel with nuclear weapons, he ignored the fact that Iran - whose President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad daily calls for the destruction of the US - may also attack the US with nuclear weapons.

Gates admitted in his Senate hearing that Iran is producing many bombs - not just one.

Since it is possible to destroy Israel with just one bomb, the Americans should be asking themselves what Iran needs all those other bombs for. There are senior military sources in the US who have been warning the administration to take into consideration that the day that Iran attacks Israel with a nuclear bomb, 10 cities in the US and Europe are liable to also be attacked with nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, no one is listening to these voices today.

IT IS particularly upsetting that Washington has chosen now of all times to turn its back on the war. Ahmadinejad hinted Monday that Iran has completed the nuclear fuel cycle and so has passed the point of no return on its nuclear program. He also made a statement indicating that Iran will have its nuclear arsenal up and running by March - just four months away.

Serious disagreement exists in Washington over the status of the Iranian program. Some claim that Iran is four or five years away from nuclear weapons capabilities. Others maintain that Iran has recently experienced serious technical setbacks in their uranium enrichment activities and that the North Korean nuclear bomb test in October, in which Iranian officials participated, was a failure.

But there are also engaged officials who agree with Ahmadinejad's assessment of Iran's nuclear progress. Those officials maintain first that the North Korean-Iranian test in October was successful and should be taken as a sign that Iran already has a nuclear arsenal. Second, they warn that the US and Israel have six months to act against Iran's nuclear installations and to overthrow the regime or face the prospect of the annihilation of Israel and the destruction of several US cities as a result of an Iranian nuclear offensive.

Obviously, Israel cannot risk the possibility that the last group of officials is correct. And since Washington has decided to go to sleep, it is up to Israel alone to act.

WHAT MUST Israel do? First, it must plan an attack against Iran's nuclear facilities and regime command and control centers. To pave the way for such an attack, the IDF must move now to neutralize second order threats like the Palestinian rocket squads and the Syrian ballistic missile arsenals in order to limit the public's exposure to attack during the course of or in the aftermath of an Israeli attack on Iran.
Second, Israel must work to topple the Iranian regime. As the Defense Minister's advisor Uri Lubrani told Ha'aretz last week, the regime in Iran is far from stable today and ripe for overthrow.

The overwhelming majority of Iranians despise the regime. There are rebellious groups in every ethnic group and province in the country - Azeris, Kurds, Ahwazi Arabs, Baluchis, Turkmen and even Persians - that are actively working to destabilize the regime. Every day there are strikes of workers, women and students. Every few weeks there are reports of violent clashes between anti-regime groups and regime forces.

Recently, oil pipelines were sabotaged in the oil-rich Khuzestan province in the south where the Ahwazi Arabs are systematically persecuted by the regime. Westerners who recently visited Iran claim that Israel operating alone could overthrow the regime by extending its assistance to these people.

Thirdly, in his testimony in the Senate on Tuesday, Gates casually mentioned that Israel has nuclear weapons. In so doing, he unceremoniously removed four decades of ambiguity over Israel's nuclear status. While his statement caused dismay in Jerusalem, perhaps Israel should see this as an opportunity.

With the threat of nuclear destruction hanging over us, it makes sense to conduct a debate about an Israeli second strike. While such a discussion will not dissuade Iran's fanatical leaders from attacking Israel with nuclear weapons, it could influence the Iranian nation to rise up against their leaders.

Moreover, such a debate could influence other regimes in the region like Saudi Arabia which today behave as if Israel's annihilation will have no adverse impact on them. Americans like Baker, Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and their European friends need to understand that as goes Israel so go the Persian Gulf's oil fields. Such an understanding may influence their willingness to enable Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.

Tragically, in these perilous times, we are being led by the worst, most incompetent government we have ever had.

Prime Minister Olmert's way of dealing with the Iranian threat is to pretend that it is none of his business. During his visit to the US last month, Olmert abdicated responsibility for safeguarding Israel from nuclear destruction to President Bush. It didn't bother him that Bush didn't accept the responsibility. By mindlessly adhering to non-existent cease-fires with Iranian proxies in Gaza and Lebanon and squawking about peace with them, Olmert continues to behave as if this is someone else's problem.

For her part, reacting to the possibility of national extinction, Education Minister YuliTamir this week cocked her pedagogical pistol and shot at her rear. By ordering the public schools to demarcate the 1949 armistice lines on the official maps and so wipe Israel off maps of Judea, Samaria and the Golan Heights, Tamir worked to divide the nation over second order issues at a time when unity of purpose is most essential. Olmert, who refused to overturn her scandalous decree, was doubtlessly pleased with her political stunt. For two days the media devoted itself entirely to stirring up internal divisions and so ignored the threat hanging over our heads and Olmert's refusal to deal with it.

Next Thursday, Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, Vice Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations Malcolm Hoenlein and former ambassador to the UN Dore Gold will hold a press conference in New York where they will call for the US to indict Ahmadinejad under the International Convention Against Genocide for his call to annihilate Israel. This is doubtlessly a welcome initiative. But it is insufficient.

In a few months, Iran may well be in possession of nuclear weapons which it will use to destroy the Jewish state. With the US withdrawing from the war and Israel in the hands of incompetents, the time has come for the Jewish people to rise up.

GUARANTEEING our survival begins with each of us deciding that we are willing to fight to survive. And today the challenge facing us is clear.

Either the Iranian regime is toppled and its nuclear installations are destroyed or Israel will be annihilated. The Jews in the Diaspora must launch mass demonstrations and demand that their governments take real action to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

The citizens of the State of Israel must also take to the streets. The government that led us to defeat in Lebanon this summer is leading us to a disaster of another order entirely. All citizens must demand that Olmert, his ministers and the generals in the IDF General Staff make an immediate decision. They now hold the responsibility for acting against Iran. They must either act or resign and make way for others who will.

America just abdicated its responsibility to defend itself against Iran and so left Israel high and dry. Nevertheless, the Jewish people is far from powerless. And the State of Israel also is capable of defending itself. But we must act and act immediately.

[Breukelen advocaat]

My advice to the people of Israel: Wake up, and GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!

P.S. The religous Jews have an old air-raid siren that they ring before sundown on Friday in my neighborhood - the "Shabbos Siren". It just went off, lol.

[Torog]

My advice to the people of Israel: Wake up, and GET THE HELL OUT OF THERE!

P.S. The religous Jews have an old air-raid siren that they ring before sundown on Friday in my neighborhood - the "Shabbos Siren". It just went off, lol.

Howdy BA,

Is the purpose of the siren,to remind Jews of the Sabbath,or to remind them to be alert for homicide bombers who like to murder Jews on the Sabbath ?

Have a good one ...

[Bong30]

They will be nuked....if they are aloud to build the bomb....


Isreal wont let them build it.....then the jews will be hated by every one on the planet.....but me.

[Breukelen advocaat]

Howdy BA,

Is the purpose of the siren,to remind Jews of the Sabbath,or to remind them to be alert for homicide bombers who like to murder Jews on the Sabbath ?

Have a good one ...
Hi Torog,

There haven't been any "homicide bombers who like to murder Jews on the Sabbath" around here.

I'd be ticked if I lived in a home that was in close proximity to the Shabbos siren, though.

Have a nice day.

[PigSnout]

They will be nuked....if they are aloud to build the bomb....

Isreal wont let them build it.....then the jews will be hated by every one on the planet.....but me.
I disagree. I think Israel will let them build it to about 99 percent completion then they'll bomb it. And I'll applaud them for doing so. :D

[medicinal]

Isreal is in a tough spot. They are on the bubble in any nuke attack from Arab terrorists. It must be a high stress place to live. But do you think it is any more high stress than Bagdad. Bagdad might not be worrying about nukes, they don't have brain space left to worry about that with all their other worries. The prime worry in Bagdad is: Will I live through this day! Yes I feel sorry for Isrealis, and wouldn't want to exchange places with them, but I'd ten times rather change with an isreali than an Iraqi, or a palestinian or syrian or others in the region!

[mrdevious]

I agree that Iran must not build a single nuclear weapon, and war may even be necessary to stop them from doing so.

However, I also think the west needs to stop being hypocrites and dismantle their own nuclear program (after perfecting an anti-missile defense system). Whether or not western nations use such devices "justly", you can't expect to have thousands of nukes then tell everybody else they can't have them, then expect those nations to say "ok, that's fair, you keep the nuclear monopoly then."

[Torog]

I agree that Iran must not build a single nuclear weapon, and war may even be necessary to stop them from doing so.

However, I also think the west needs to stop being hypocrites and dismantle their own nuclear program (after perfecting an anti-missile defense system). Whether or not western nations use such devices "justly", you can't expect to have thousands of nukes then tell everybody else they can't have them, then expect those nations to say "ok, that's fair, you keep the nuclear monopoly then."

Howdy mrdevious,

Well I'm glad that you at least recognize the threat that Iran is,to the Free World and especially Israel.

As for disarming ourselves,while hard-line commies and violent muslim-jihadists don't..no sane person,with common sense,would trust them with nukes. The 'everybody else' that you refer to,do not have a good system of checks and balances and they have piss-poor fail-safes,as it stands now-AQ elements are on the verge of gaining control of Pakistan's nukes.

There are 2 ideaologies in the world today,that aim to destroy democracy and freedom,that being Islam and communism. Despite Russia and China's appearance of being democratic,they are in fact-still in the grip of hard-line commies,they have a mutual defense pact,against the US and the Free World,and both of them,are building nbc shelters,so that they can survive our counter-attack,after they attack us first with nukes.

So put that in yer pipe and think about it,a bit.

Have a good one ...

[Zimzum]

There are 2 ideaologies in the world today,that aim to destroy democracy and freedom,that being Islam and communism. Despite Russia and China's appearance of being democratic,they are in fact-still in the grip of hard-line commies,they have a mutual defense pact,against the US and the Free World,and both of them,are building nbc shelters,so that they can survive our counter-attack,after they attack us first with nukes.

So put that in yer pipe and think about it,a bit.

Have a good one ...

Torog or anyone who wants the use of nukes I ask you to watch an old 80's movie called "The Day After". Not everyone is hell bent on wiping out our existence. Even a small scale nuclear war would have a huge environmental impact And what about the ideology that says there can be world peace? Ideology of democracy?

You and your Christian right friends can go play in the sand box with your holy war toys.

[Torog]

Torog or anyone who wants the use of nukes I ask you to watch an old 80's movie called "The Day After". Not everyone is hell bent on wiping out our existence. Even a small scale nuclear war would have a huge environmental impact And what about the ideology that says there can be world peace? Ideology of democracy?

You and your Christian right friends can go play in the sand box with your holy war toys.

Howdy Zimzum,

I've seen that movie,a couple,three times and I'd urge my fellow Americans to watch it an see what happens when ya ain't prepared - as we all should be. Another good show,is "Jericho".

I realize that not everyone is hell-bent on wiping us out,just the muslim-jihadists and hard-line commies.

You and your 5th columinst friends,won't be playing in the sand box,you'll be filling it with sand,because of yer status as a dhimmini,because of yer failure to stand against the true enemies of freedom.

I will never rest comfortably,until everyone is free..why is it-that you sleep soundly,while so many languish under brutal tryanny ?

Have a good one ...

[Ozarks]

I agree that Iran must not build a single nuclear weapon, and war may even be necessary to stop them from doing so.

However, I also think the west needs to stop being hypocrites and dismantle their own nuclear program (after perfecting an anti-missile defense system). Whether or not western nations use such devices "justly", you can't expect to have thousands of nukes then tell everybody else they can't have them, then expect those nations to say "ok, that's fair, you keep the nuclear monopoly then."

I would agree with all that if, you "had to have" a missile to deliver a bomb. I think unfortunately the genie is out of the bottle on this. Sooner or later something very bad is going to happen, even if the world is successful in stopping Iran (and North Korea) this time.

[Zimzum]

I will never rest comfortably,until everyone is free..why is it-that you sleep soundly,while so many languish under brutal tryanny ?

Have a good one ...


I rest comfortably because I know the terrorist have not won. When someone such as you and others go on a rant about an Iranian threats or extremest threats they have won. They caused you to fear there tactic of terror. If you do not fear these people they are no different then IMO early American colonist. We fought off the British and there tyrant rule on us.. Can not they feel the same way about US foreign policy? Whats right for you and me might not be right to them. So they fight for there beliefs.

I believe "we" as humans, not because of religious or political teaching should stand up for each other. End more important things in this world like starvation, genocide, racism, greed. Once those issues are met there will be allot less hatred in this world and more reason for peace. Simply throwing more war on top of war will only compound our currently overlooked issues.

[mrdevious]

Howdy mrdevious,

Well I'm glad that you at least recognize the threat that Iran is,to the Free World and especially Israel.

As for disarming ourselves,while hard-line commies and violent muslim-jihadists don't..no sane person,with common sense,would trust them with nukes. The 'everybody else' that you refer to,do not have a good system of checks and balances and they have piss-poor fail-safes,as it stands now-AQ elements are on the verge of gaining control of Pakistan's nukes.

There are 2 ideaologies in the world today,that aim to destroy democracy and freedom,that being Islam and communism. Despite Russia and China's appearance of being democratic,they are in fact-still in the grip of hard-line commies,they have a mutual defense pact,against the US and the Free World,and both of them,are building nbc shelters,so that they can survive our counter-attack,after they attack us first with nukes.

So put that in yer pipe and think about it,a bit.

Have a good one ...

Torog, I know what I wrote below is an exceptionally long read, but I'd advise you and everybody else to go through it if you really want to understand why I have such opinions regarding international conflict, and it should especially give you a much broader understanding of the threat facing us.


I think I understand where you're coming from , and I agree that those extremists must never have such weapons of mass destruction. All I'm saying is that, whether we're right to hold nukes or not, it's not realistic to have such a massive arsenal and expect such other nations to accept this as a just system. Every leader and their nation want's power and security, and when one has nuclear capabilities, all will want nuclear capabilities.

One intersting point in history to consider is the Cuban missle crisis. A lot of people look back on this as a day when communists arbitarily placed a bunch of nuclear warheads in Cuba and pointed them at the head of the United States. What most American media and (so called) historians fail to mention is that this was a tactic in direct response to a threat form America, intended to equal the playing field. The only reason it become suddenly necessary to place nukes in Cuba, right off the coast of Florida, is because only half a year earlier the United States put a bunch of nukes in Turkey pointed right at the head of Moscow, about the same distance. The nuclear arming of Cuba was actually a very proportionate response. Albeit it only compounded international tensions, and was probably not a good response, but an innevitable one nonetheless. Results are based on realism, not one-sided ideologies that see the power balances as they should be.

Furtheremore, I by no means believe we should "disarm" ourselves as you seem to think I was proposing. I only think we should minimize our nuclear arsenal to a few weapons tucked away just in case, and perfect our anti-nuclear defense system. Holding thousands of nuclear weapons and telling our enemies not to is obviously not a realistic request, and will only compound enemy propoganda that the west is an institution of hypocracy and a dangerous threat. Believe me, almost all terrorists organizations are filled with a majority of people who hate the west not because they "hate freedom" as we're propogandized to believe, but because they've been propogandized and conditioned since birth to believe that the west is a great satanic threat out to conquere and destroy the muslim way of life.

I half agree with your assesment of the 2 powers that threaten freedom, that being communism and islam, and would actually add a 3rd, that being totalitarianism.

Islam itself is not the sole threat comprising terrorism, it's more the recent extremist movement within islam that established sharia law in the late 1940's and sought to bring about the end of days fortold in the holy texts. There is indeed a huge movement of Muslim extremists seeking to bring about this apocalyptic outcome, but I know there are many muslims who want to live regular lives, hold down a job, and support their families like the rest of us. My dad actually had a friend who was from an Islamic branch from Africa that has several million followers. It's philosophy is strongly in support of perpetuating islam as a religion of peace, and spreading it throughout the world by example of universal peace, love, and compassion for all humanity. They believe that Jihad must be strictly forbidden, and that god can only be spread through love.
In fact, Islam does forbit Jihad and posits that war is only acceptable in self-defence. The extremists has twisted this into poor U.S. foreign economic and political policy, as well as western decedence, as a supposed "threat" to Islam as a whole, and therefor justifying Jihad as a form of "self defense", which is a load of crap.

Communism is a bit of an iffy one.
Russia seems to have not recovered since establishing a democratic society, and communism is once again growing in popularity. They still have the second most powerfull military (at least in supplies) in the world, and seem hellbent on maintaining it no matter what the cost. Both Russia and China have been caught with several spies in our countries as of late, and have been supplying the Iranian's (and possibly syrians) with huge armaments of weapons while making a nice profit themselves. Though while both employ communistic aspects in their social ideology, both are still pretty far from a true view of actual communism. Rather, I'd call China a totalitarian fascist government with state-centered capitalism, and Russia... that one's a bit more hazy, but definately Totalitarian at least. Cuba I'm pretty sure is content to be an isolated dictatorship with no interest in internation conflicts or conquestion these days, and as far as dictators go I'd say Castro is one of the better ones (but, like I said, that's as far as dictators go).
North Korea.... well Kim Jon Ill and his government are just damn insane, probably one of the biggest threats to democracy and human life in general. I don't blame the North Korean people at all, those poor people live under one of the most brutal and suppressive dictatorships in human history. North Korea could only be called communist in that everybody is kept equally poor, isolated, and starving unless they enlist in the military (1/3 of the population is enlisted for that reason). I think if anything North Korea would supply the majority, if not all of their nuclear weapons to Iran. And while Western power are struggling to keep their middle estern conflicts under control, NK will sweep in for South Korea and finally take it as they intended. Japan would most likely be next, and with such power further conquest would be limitless.

This is just one of the reaon's I disagree with the Iraq war. While Saddam was unfriendly to the US, he was rather isolationist and even more unfriendly to middle-estern powers such as Iran and would have been helpfull in keeping them in check, simply as an enemy of our enemy. Now we have far too many resources devoted to a needless war while real immediate threats such as Syria, Iran, North Korea, and possibly Russia and China are at our doorstep. Even if we win Iraq, all it will accomplish is a democracy held together by a weak military that will have no more ability to stand against the Iranian threat than Saddam's regime.

You have a good one as well my friend.

[medicinal]

I think you sumed it up pretty squarely. The main instigator in Jihadism is US foriegn policy. Support of Isreal, troops in Muslim lands, support of dictatorial leaders, propping up the Saudi royals, Stealing the resourses, (the people don't see any of the oil money, only the opressive leaders). If you looked at the US from their perspective, you would probably feel the same way, Don't forget, these Jihadists are for the most part extremely poor and desperate, so their life doesn't seem like much compared to the rewards of martyrdom. Hell, 72 Virgins sounds like a lot of work to me, but to a desparate poor person, it probably sounds pretty good!

[mrdevious]

The interesting thing about the U.S. supporting Israel is that it was both the right and wrong thing to do. When Israel was first established, it was to give the Jews their own nation where they could safely steer clear of persecution and atrocities like the concentration camps. I absolutely support the notion. However how was awful, an atrocity of another great proportion commited against the Arabs when several hundred thousand were evicted from their legally owned land to make room for the Jews, not to mention siezing mass amounts of farm land and other private properties owned for many generations. Their justification of course was that the jews technically had it first, some-odd 1 and a half thousand years ago, but if we stole the land out from under anybody who lived where another ancestor used to, the whole world would be uprooted. And so because of the stupid means by which the Jew's new nation was formed, we have terrible conflict and civilian casualties to this day. I guess few people think ahead.

[Torog]

I rest comfortably because I know the terrorist have not won. When someone such as you and others go on a rant about an Iranian threats or extremest threats they have won. They caused you to fear there tactic of terror. If you do not fear these people they are no different then IMO early American colonist. We fought off the British and there tyrant rule on us.. Can not they feel the same way about US foreign policy? Whats right for you and me might not be right to them. So they fight for there beliefs.

I believe "we" as humans, not because of religious or political teaching should stand up for each other. End more important things in this world like starvation, genocide, racism, greed. Once those issues are met there will be allot less hatred in this world and more reason for peace. Simply throwing more war on top of war will only compound our currently overlooked issues.

Howdy Zimzum,

Of course the terrorists have not won,because we have chosen to fight them and kill them,I have no fear of them,I'm filled with a terrible resolve,instead..they best fear me and my fellow soldiers,who are not beguilled by their lies and propaganda,as you and yer fellow 5th columnists are,and whom spend their waking hours,coming up with apologies and means of appeasing them.

Nope,they can't feel the same way about US foreign policy,when what they offer,is brutal tryanny,if successful. What did the American colonist offer ? Individual rights,liberty,justice and a Constitutional Republic..there is no room for such,under Islamic law.

I see that yer one of them folks,who think that we must ignore an attack on our own soil,and solve all other problems first,before we hold the attackers accountable for their actions.

Have a good one ...

[Torog]

Howdy mr.devious,

I appreciate yer considered reply.

If our nuclear armed enemies have such good intentions,as you seem to suggest,then they should draw down their nuclear stockpiles first..while you may be able to trust their word,I cannot..nor should the rest of the world. Their brutal histories are written in many books..what reason is there,to trust them with our lives ? Yer asking me to trust the fox in the hen-house,the wolf , in the sheep-pen.

You are making a terrible mistake,in granting them moral equivalancey with us and the Free World.

This is the extent of my trust "Trust-but verify"

This is how we gain peace "Peace-through strength "

Have a good one ...

Ps:as for NK,if they're foolish enough to attack SK,en masse..we have the means to stop that advance-dead in it's tracks,thanx to our arsenal of nuclear weapons.

[mrdevious]

Torog, I don't understand how you got that idea that I'm claiming that Iran and the likes have moral equivilancy. Iran, North Korea, and many others would undoubtedly use such weapons against many people unjustly, hence why I say they have to be stopped even it it means war. All I was saying (I don't really know how else to say it) is that from their perspective, the mass nuclear weapon's build up of the U.S. is a perfect tool for anti-western propoganda, and it's not reasonable to assume that somebody is going to disarm when you refuse to do the same. I'm not proposing leaving ourselves defenseless, I'm proposing perfectin an anti-missile defense system before scrapping our nukes, then declaring war if it is so necessary to stop a nation like I Iran from building/using them. It's not necessary to have nukes to declare war, we have some amazingly powerfull non-nuclear weapons of mass destruction that could easly whipe out a nuclear site before they see it coming, shoot down a nuclear missile before it reaches the Indian ocean, and destroy conventional military's accordingly. Troops, special forces, guided missiles, smart-bombs, fighter and bomber aircraft, espionage, artilery, battleships and coastal bombardments... these are all very effective.

[VoidLivesOn]

Torog or anyone who wants the use of nukes I ask you to watch an old 80's movie called "The Day After". Not everyone is hell bent on wiping out our existence. Even a small scale nuclear war would have a huge environmental impact And what about the ideology that says there can be world peace? Ideology of democracy?

You and your Christian right friends can go play in the sand box with your holy war toys.

My mom made me watch that when I was a kid. Scared the shit out of me.

[daima]

Jews Wake Up!
JERUSALEM POST ^ | Dec. 8, 2006 | Caroline Glick


Column One: Jews Wake Up!


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Caroline Glick, THE JERUSALEM POST Dec. 8, 2006

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When the history of our times is written, this week will be remembered as the week that Washington decided to let the Islamic Republic of Iran go nuclear. Hopefully it will also be remembered as the moment the Jews arose and refused to allow Iran to go nuclear.

With the publication of the recommendations of the Iraq Study Group chaired by former US secretary of state James Baker III and former congressman Lee Hamilton, the debate about the war in Iraq changed. From a war for victory against Islamofascism and for democracy and freedom, the war became reduced to a conflict to be managed by appeasing the US's sworn enemies in the interests of stability, and at the expense of America's allies.

Baker and his associates claim that the US cannot win the war in Iraq and so the US must negotiate with its primary enemies in Iraq and throughout the world - Iran and Syria - in the hopes that they will be persuaded to hold their fire for long enough to facilitate an "honorable" American retreat from the country.

Like his unsupported assertion that the US cannot win in Iraq, Baker also asserts - in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary - that Iran and Syria share America's "interest in avoiding chaos in Iraq." Because of this supposed shared interest, Baker maintains that with the proper incentives, Iran and Syria can be persuaded to cooperate with a US withdrawal from Iraq ahead of the 2008 presidential primaries.

The main incentive Baker advocates offering is Israel.

Baker believes that Iran will agree to temporarily hold its fire in Iraq in exchange for US acceptance of Iran as a nuclear power and an American pledge not to topple the regime. Syria will assist the US in exchange for US pressure on Israel to hand over the Golan Heights to Syria and Judea and Samaria to Hamas.

Obviously, if implemented, the Baker-Hamilton group's recommendations will be disastrous for Israel. Just the fact that they now form the basis for the public debate on the war is a great blow. But it isn't only Israel that is harmed by their actions. The US too, will be imperiled if their views become administration policy.

Although Baker - and incoming Secretary of Defense Robert Gates who served on his commission until Bush announced his appointment last month - believes that there is a deal to be done that will end Iranian and Syrian aggression against the US, its vital interests and its allies, the fact of the matter is that there is no such deal. Contrary to what the Baker report argues and what Gates said in his Senate confirmation hearing Tuesday, Iran is not analogous to the Soviet Union and the war against the global jihad is not a new cold war.

Even if the US were to somehow get them to agree to certain understandings about Iraq, there is no reason to believe that the Iranians and Syrians would keep their word. Not only would the US be approaching them as a supplicant and so emboldening them, but to date the US has never credibly threatened anything either Syria or Iran value. Indeed, through supporting negotiations between the EU and Iran, empowering the UN to deal with Iran's nuclear program, and forcing Israel to accept a cease-fire with Hizbullah last summer that effectively gave victory to the Syrian and Iranian proxy, the US has consistently rewarded the two countries' aggression.

Worse than that, from a US perspective, although Gates admitted Tuesday that he cannot guarantee that Iran will not attack Israel with nuclear weapons, he ignored the fact that Iran - whose President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad daily calls for the destruction of the US - may also attack the US with nuclear weapons.

Gates admitted in his Senate hearing that Iran is producing many bombs - not just one.

Since it is possible to destroy Israel with just one bomb, the Americans should be asking themselves what Iran needs all those other bombs for. There are senior military sources in the US who have been warning the administration to take into consideration that the day that Iran attacks Israel with a nuclear bomb, 10 cities in the US and Europe are liable to also be attacked with nuclear weapons. Unfortunately, no one is listening to these voices today.

IT IS particularly upsetting that Washington has chosen now of all times to turn its back on the war. Ahmadinejad hinted Monday that Iran has completed the nuclear fuel cycle and so has passed the point of no return on its nuclear program. He also made a statement indicating that Iran will have its nuclear arsenal up and running by March - just four months away.

Serious disagreement exists in Washington over the status of the Iranian program. Some claim that Iran is four or five years away from nuclear weapons capabilities. Others maintain that Iran has recently experienced serious technical setbacks in their uranium enrichment activities and that the North Korean nuclear bomb test in October, in which Iranian officials participated, was a failure.

But there are also engaged officials who agree with Ahmadinejad's assessment of Iran's nuclear progress. Those officials maintain first that the North Korean-Iranian test in October was successful and should be taken as a sign that Iran already has a nuclear arsenal. Second, they warn that the US and Israel have six months to act against Iran's nuclear installations and to overthrow the regime or face the prospect of the annihilation of Israel and the destruction of several US cities as a result of an Iranian nuclear offensive.

Obviously, Israel cannot risk the possibility that the last group of officials is correct. And since Washington has decided to go to sleep, it is up to Israel alone to act.

WHAT MUST Israel do? First, it must plan an attack against Iran's nuclear facilities and regime command and control centers. To pave the way for such an attack, the IDF must move now to neutralize second order threats like the Palestinian rocket squads and the Syrian ballistic missile arsenals in order to limit the public's exposure to attack during the course of or in the aftermath of an Israeli attack on Iran.
Second, Israel must work to topple the Iranian regime. As the Defense Minister's advisor Uri Lubrani told Ha'aretz last week, the regime in Iran is far from stable today and ripe for overthrow.

The overwhelming majority of Iranians despise the regime. There are rebellious groups in every ethnic group and province in the country - Azeris, Kurds, Ahwazi Arabs, Baluchis, Turkmen and even Persians - that are actively working to destabilize the regime. Every day there are strikes of workers, women and students. Every few weeks there are reports of violent clashes between anti-regime groups and regime forces.

Recently, oil pipelines were sabotaged in the oil-rich Khuzestan province in the south where the Ahwazi Arabs are systematically persecuted by the regime. Westerners who recently visited Iran claim that Israel operating alone could overthrow the regime by extending its assistance to these people.

Thirdly, in his testimony in the Senate on Tuesday, Gates casually mentioned that Israel has nuclear weapons. In so doing, he unceremoniously removed four decades of ambiguity over Israel's nuclear status. While his statement caused dismay in Jerusalem, perhaps Israel should see this as an opportunity.

With the threat of nuclear destruction hanging over us, it makes sense to conduct a debate about an Israeli second strike. While such a discussion will not dissuade Iran's fanatical leaders from attacking Israel with nuclear weapons, it could influence the Iranian nation to rise up against their leaders.

Moreover, such a debate could influence other regimes in the region like Saudi Arabia which today behave as if Israel's annihilation will have no adverse impact on them. Americans like Baker, Gates and Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and their European friends need to understand that as goes Israel so go the Persian Gulf's oil fields. Such an understanding may influence their willingness to enable Iran to acquire nuclear weapons.

Tragically, in these perilous times, we are being led by the worst, most incompetent government we have ever had.

Prime Minister Olmert's way of dealing with the Iranian threat is to pretend that it is none of his business. During his visit to the US last month, Olmert abdicated responsibility for safeguarding Israel from nuclear destruction to President Bush. It didn't bother him that Bush didn't accept the responsibility. By mindlessly adhering to non-existent cease-fires with Iranian proxies in Gaza and Lebanon and squawking about peace with them, Olmert continues to behave as if this is someone else's problem.

For her part, reacting to the possibility of national extinction, Education Minister YuliTamir this week cocked her pedagogical pistol and shot at her rear. By ordering the public schools to demarcate the 1949 armistice lines on the official maps and so wipe Israel off maps of Judea, Samaria and the Golan Heights, Tamir worked to divide the nation over second order issues at a time when unity of purpose is most essential. Olmert, who refused to overturn her scandalous decree, was doubtlessly pleased with her political stunt. For two days the media devoted itself entirely to stirring up internal divisions and so ignored the threat hanging over our heads and Olmert's refusal to deal with it.

Next Thursday, Harvard law professor Alan Dershowitz, Vice Chairman of the Conference of Presidents of Major Jewish Organizations Malcolm Hoenlein and former ambassador to the UN Dore Gold will hold a press conference in New York where they will call for the US to indict Ahmadinejad under the International Convention Against Genocide for his call to annihilate Israel. This is doubtlessly a welcome initiative. But it is insufficient.

In a few months, Iran may well be in possession of nuclear weapons which it will use to destroy the Jewish state. With the US withdrawing from the war and Israel in the hands of incompetents, the time has come for the Jewish people to rise up.

GUARANTEEING our survival begins with each of us deciding that we are willing to fight to survive. And today the challenge facing us is clear.

Either the Iranian regime is toppled and its nuclear installations are destroyed or Israel will be annihilated. The Jews in the Diaspora must launch mass demonstrations and demand that their governments take real action to prevent Iran from acquiring nuclear weapons.

The citizens of the State of Israel must also take to the streets. The government that led us to defeat in Lebanon this summer is leading us to a disaster of another order entirely. All citizens must demand that Olmert, his ministers and the generals in the IDF General Staff make an immediate decision. They now hold the responsibility for acting against Iran. They must either act or resign and make way for others who will.

America just abdicated its responsibility to defend itself against Iran and so left Israel high and dry. Nevertheless, the Jewish people is far from powerless. And the State of Israel also is capable of defending itself. But we must act and act immediately.

Jews wake-up?
how about PEOPLE of the world waking -up?
Iran is using fear to promote war.
The usa and bush are using fear to promote war
israel is using fear to promote war.
fuck the capitalist and their greedy earth shattering ways.
War is capitalism with the gloves off. greedy bastards.

We americans dont need to worry about Iran. We need to worry about wal-mart, mcdonalds, burger king, wendys, and the military industrial complex, phillip morris, exxon, coors.

Talk about secrets?
try going in, or around, area 51 in New Mexico.
lets find out what we are americans are being left out on there.
america has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world over and over and over and over and over, and we have used them before.
america has submarines loaded with nuclear warheads. Iran doesnt.
your pro -rightwinged propaganda is whats scarey.
you smokin cigars with than nut limbaugh? i know u r. dont lie.

dai*ma:stoned: a wide awake, Jew.;)

[BlueCat]

Jews wake-up?
how about PEOPLE of the world waking -up?
Iran is using fear to promote war.
The usa and bush are using fear to promote war
israel is using fear to promote war.
fuck the capitalist and their greedy earth shattering ways.
War is capitalism with the gloves off. greedy bastards.

We americans dont need to worry about Iran. We need to worry about wal-mart, mcdonalds, burger king, wendys, and the military industrial complex, phillip morris, exxon, coors.

Talk about secrets?
try going in, or around, area 51 in New Mexico.
lets find out what we are americans are being left out on there.
america has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world over and over and over and over and over, and we have used them before.
america has submarines loaded with nuclear warheads. Iran doesnt.
your pro -rightwinged propaganda is whats scarey.
you smokin cigars with than nut limbaugh? i know u r. dont lie.

dai*ma:stoned: a wide awake, Jew.;)


Finally a voice of reason :) yep I agree and I found the jews wake up title somewhat offensive and I am not even Jewish.

[daima]

Finally a voice of reason :) yep I agree and I found the jews wake up title somewhat offensive and I am not even Jewish.

i could only imagine the outrage we americans would have if we had foreign militaries in our backyard taking what they want at gun point.
How dare our american government ignore our farmers who could grow our fuels, but instead start wars to go take the fuels under the ground of other nations. And they call those who are willing to standup to us the , 'terrorist'?
dai*ma:stoned:
'me likes olive oil
me likes hash oil
but me cant stand exxon oil':mad:

[Torog]

Jews wake-up?
how about PEOPLE of the world waking -up?
Iran is using fear to promote war.
The usa and bush are using fear to promote war
israel is using fear to promote war.
f*ck the capitalist and their greedy earth shattering ways.
War is capitalism with the gloves off. greedy bastards.

We americans dont need to worry about Iran. We need to worry about wal-mart, mcdonalds, burger king, wendys, and the military industrial complex, phillip morris, exxon, coors.

Talk about secrets?
try going in, or around, area 51 in New Mexico.
lets find out what we are americans are being left out on there.
america has enough nuclear weapons to destroy the world over and over and over and over and over, and we have used them before.
america has submarines loaded with nuclear warheads. Iran doesnt.
your pro -rightwinged propaganda is whats scarey.
you smokin cigars with than nut limbaugh? i know u r. dont lie.

dai*ma:stoned: a wide awake, Jew.;)

Howdy daima,

My gal is a Jew and she knows that unless we rid the world of the kind of leadership in Iran and Syria,that says "We will wipe Israel off of the map..",that Israel will be dealt a fatal blow. She is ashamed and disgusted by Jews like you,who fail to realize the hitlerian evil of Iran and turn a blind eye to it.

Capitalism is a means by which ordinary folks can rise up through hard work and accumulate the wealth that will improve their standard of living,it also drives down prices of goods and services,by way of competition.

Bases like Area 51,develope the technology that America needs for our military to succeed in keeping the enemies of freedom,from destroying the Free World.

While the iranians may not currently have subs with nuclear missiles,that could change over-night,if russia or china,decides to sell them to the iranians. The same is true of russian suit-case nukes,which may have already been sold on the black market.

As for Limbaugh,I don't listen to him or read what he says,I don't even have his web-site saved to fav's,I prefer to git my info from my fellow veterans and soldiers and those who truly know what's going on and have experience in such.

Have a good one ...

[Fengzi]

Nope,they can't feel the same way about US foreign policy,when what they offer,is brutal tryanny,if successful.... Who offers brutal tyranny if successful? Sounds like what your fellow Texan would like to offer Iraq. Only he's not been successful:D


What did the American colonist offer ? Individual rights,liberty,justice and a Constitutional Republic...

Umm, I think the American Indians wouldn't really agree with this statement. Not that I'm condoning the Muslims desire to wipe out Isreal, but how is that any different from what we did several hundred years ago? And please Torog, don't tell me it was ok for us to do it because the Indians were heathens and we had God on our side.

[medicinal]

try going in, or around, area 51 in New Mexico I'm sorry but area 51 is in Nevada!

[daima]

try going in, or around, area 51 in New Mexico I'm sorry but area 51 is in Nevada!

my bad.
as i was typing i was thinking of the nuclear facility in new mexico.
no need to apoligise. thanks for the correction.

dai*ma:stoned: