question about hell... [Archive] - Green Grass Forums

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harris7

12-07-2006, 02:04 AM

40oz

12-07-2006, 02:11 AM

From what I know:

Satan was an angle that wanted to be more powerful than god or something so he was damned to hell and for sme reason he wants to tempt souls to go to hell with him so he can torture them. He is mean to people who like him because he is satan. Pure evil

JunkYard

12-07-2006, 03:57 AM

I don't know, harris...

#1 Maybe, we get that which we show we value on this earth?
#2 Maybe, there is no hell?
#3 Maybe, we experience it here?
#4 Maybe, all of the above?

I think Satan is an adversary, but an advesary to what? We all got a little satan in us, just as we all got a little god. Both come in form of spirit, I think? Perhaps it's what we cling to that determines our end fate, and we choose through our actions?

I don't know, harris...

Love,

MastaChronic

12-07-2006, 07:02 AM

I AM SATAN! BOW DOWN AND WORSHIP ME BEFORE I MAKE OPRAH COME AND HUMP YOU! MUAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA..........HA

kindprincess

12-07-2006, 07:22 AM

Polymirize

12-07-2006, 07:32 AM

It's usually defined as the complete separation from God.

Then some creative storytellers decided it would be better for their cause to make hell very hot and full of demons who want to poke people with tridents.

And then there's Sartre, who thought "hell is other people".

harris7

12-08-2006, 12:29 AM

how do you know that satan tortures people? i've always wondered that if smoking pot and drinking and partying and thinking bad thoughts are sins, does that mean that it's not allowed in heaven? if so then would it not be in hell, as the two are opposites? so... if you are a normal person, look at my sig and consider...

thats what i was always thinking, from what i was told about hell from sunday school teachers.

if all these fun things are sins. well woudn't hell be full of sin, and therefore fun?

and the devil, didn't he want to take over heaven or something. and god cast him into hell. if so, why would i see him as a bad guy.

We both like sinning... i think we'd get along

aznson01

12-08-2006, 12:29 AM

hell is bad and you dont wanna go there

40oz

12-08-2006, 01:31 AM

Some people might want to go there

Pass That Shit

12-08-2006, 02:45 AM

I don't think so. Those that want to go there is because they don't believe it exists. How many of us say that we want to feel pain?

KP,
Being in a heavenly state is free of pain. Fullness of joy. Anyone choosing the opposite is clearly just pointing out that they don't believe in heaven. If you believed that the two existed, why would you choose hell?

Poly,
At least you gave them credit for being creative. Actually I take that back. They were not creative, they were led of the Spirit.

kindprincess

12-08-2006, 03:05 AM

pass, i'm a devout catholic school girl, born and raised in the roman catholic church... the more i learn, the more i wonder... you see, i find corruption of man has hindered the truth of righteousness. i believe in god. i believe in heaven. i believe in hell... but i do not believe that these things are what i've been raised to believe they are...

pot makes me become philosophical; i think about wierd, crazy things... my sig was created to inspire the mind and make people think outside of the box.

re-stated, if the things you want are corrupt and evil, and what you don't want good and righteous, then is hell heaven? or is heaven hell?

Pass That Shit

12-09-2006, 01:31 AM

MastaChronic

12-09-2006, 01:43 AM

"if the things you want are corrupt and evil, and what you don't want good and righteous, then is hell heaven? or is heaven hell?"

I don't know about you, but I want the things that are good and righteous. I guess everyone will get what they seek.

but who is to define "good and righteous"? there is no such thing as good or righteous, it is all in the mind and is a product of the hyper reality that humans have crafted for themselves

Pass That Shit

12-09-2006, 01:53 AM

"but who is to define "good and righteous"? there is no such thing as good or righteous, it is all in the mind and is a product of the hyper reality that humans have crafted for themselves"

Things that are good and righteous bring joy. There's no pain in good things. Nothing offensive can enter into a holy city.

Psycho4Bud

12-09-2006, 02:22 AM

When I was a kid I told my ol' man that I wanted to go to hell cause thats where the party was at........he said to me "Hell is where the tops of the bottles and the bottom of the ladies are corked up for good!":(

Have a good one!:jointsmile:

kindprincess

12-09-2006, 02:32 AM

yeah, but do you think jesus holds weekly keggers? i think not... good is in the eye... what i want and like, what makes me happy will eventually affect someone else, who thinks of what i want as bad... so who is right?

p4b, you're my hero:thumbsup:

Pass That Shit

12-09-2006, 02:32 AM

he said to me "Hell is where the tops of the bottles and the bottom of the ladies are corked up for good!"

bottom of what ladies? women or weed? :D

kindprincess

12-09-2006, 02:44 AM

my rearing phrase was a story version...

a man asks god, "what is the difference between heaven and hell?" god took the man to a great room where hundreds of people sat at a grand table with all sorts of delicious foods... however their utensils were so incredibly long, they couldn't feed themselves; everyone was sad and dreary miserable... then god took the man to another room, with the same table and utensils... but the people in this room were joyous and happy.

the man asked god, "why is it that the place is the same but in one room the people suffer, whilst in the other, everyone is happy?"

god said to the man, "the first room is hell, the second is heaven"

puzzled, the man asks, "what is so different that these people could feel opposite? the rooms are the same!"

god replied, "in hell, everyone is trying to feed themselves...in heaven, they've learned to feed each other..."

i think this moral is that to be alone without helping others is to be in hell. heaven is where we take care of each other.

just something to consider...

love, kp:p

harris7

12-09-2006, 03:03 AM

braddog100

12-09-2006, 03:15 AM

i would like to learn more about what the bible/jesus says about hell?
somethingâ??s dont make sense to me but thats probably because i dont understand it.

i guess god created it, cuz he made everything...

satan was sent there to be punished?
does he rule it now? if so why is he so mean to people like him?

umm. share anything else that comes to mind

thanks

It's hard to imagine how any demonic beings could interrelate well amongst themselves. Caught up in their own selfishness and hate.

Hell is the absence of God in any venue. He brings clarity and light to everywhere He is welcome. This is particularly critical as it relates to areas of our soul. Our soul (intellect, emotions and will) is very complex, and compartmentalized. Passions, sympathies, aspirations are all developed by the interrelationships ~ in the soul, and are all made alive by the presence of God The reciprocal is to accept confusion and darkness by default. Demonic access/confusion is a drag by any stretch of the imagination.

The tough thing in my early Christian life was the confused view of my actual desire for Him to occupy all areas. The Demonic hassle that comes due to the Lords absence, taught me my actual need for Him. It is when I resist submission to his access that suffering comes. But that is how I learned.
The Lord is much more patient than I have perceived. He lets things play out to their inevitable conclusion. He is never hard. It is our choices that bring us the most pain.

I'll check on permission to download an audio/prophecy on Utube of Heidi Baker. It breaks through alot of confusion in this area.

Your asking alot of honest questions. Be encouraged. "Those who seek Me Shall Find me". says The Lord.

Immolation

12-09-2006, 03:27 AM

As far as Satan and Hell go.Why didn't god being all knowing, know that satan and a 1/3 or his/her army would rebel? Is this part of his plan?

And do people have freewill in Heaven?

braddog100

12-09-2006, 03:28 AM

i would like to learn more about what the bible/jesus says about hell?
somethingâ??s dont make sense to me but thats probably because i dont understand it.

i guess god created it, cuz he made everything...

satan was sent there to be punished?
does he rule it now? if so why is he so mean to people like him?

umm. share anything else that comes to mind

thanks

It's hard to imagine how any demonic beings could interrelate well amonst themselves. Caught up in their own selfishness and hate.

Hell is the absence of God in any venue. He brings clarity and light to everywhere He is welcome. This is particularly critical as it relates to areas of our soul. Our soul (intellect, emotions and will) is very complex, and compartmentalized. Passions, sympathies, aspirations are all developed by the interrelationships ~ in the soul, and are all made alive by the presence of God The reciprocal is to accept confusion and darkness by default. Demonic access/confusion is a drag by any stretch of the imagination.

The tough thing in my early Christian life was the confused view of my actual desire for Him to occupy all areas. The Demonic hassle that comes due to the Lords absence, tought me my actual need for Him. It is when I resist submission to his access that suffering comes. But that is how I learned.
The Lord is much more patient than I have perceived. He lets things play out to their inevitable conclusion. He is never hard. It is our choices that bring us the most pain.

I'll check on permission to download an audio/prophecy on Utube of Heidi Baker. It breaks through alot of confusion in this area.

Your asking alot of honest questions. Be encouraged. "Those who seek Me Shall Find me". says The Lord.

MastaChronic

12-09-2006, 04:35 AM

ive resisted "submission" to this magical man in the sky that protects you from evil and nothing bad has happened to me. i wonder why.....................

HiProGlow

12-09-2006, 11:15 AM

Though I don't pretend to know a lot about Lucifer, can you imagine what it would be like for him if we were to use him in a story. Say he was cast out of the prescense of God. He's now on the face of the earth but he's forgotten his roots and even, who he is. The whole time he's there, he's lusting after the flesh of humankind and hording all the "trinkets" that humanity fights over. Materialism/Hatred/Jealousy are his greatest weapons and he nows how to stir them up within a person. He knows how to use our natural desires destructively and for our demise. And then sudenly he begins to realize the consequences of what he's done. How he's been cast out of hell and how this world and everything in it is his. All the people he's hated or lusted after are now skulls (don't forget his immortality); all the money in the world is now his; there is no God for him anymore; there isn't even another soul to torment anymore. And then it hits him.....he has everything he ever wanted for an eternity....all by his miserable, lonesome self and the self same "world" he ruled slowly becomes his eternal prison.

delusionsofNORMALity

12-09-2006, 02:06 PM

Though I don't pretend to know a lot about Lucifer.....

you realize, of course, that you've have just defined earth as hell.

now i don't exactly disagree with the premise, but our more devout friends might take exception to the concept. this would mean that, in essence we atheists are correct. with hell defined as the absence of god, our residence in hell would deny us any access to the deity. without access, salvation becomes impossible and belief becomes a torture in itself.

personally, i kind of like the concept that the most devout among us are the great sinners, condemned to eternal torment; while we unbelievers are merely the natural denizens of satan's kingdom, content merely to exist.

Oneironaut

12-09-2006, 03:18 PM

Hell certainly can't possibly exist, or else heaven could not exist. How could anybody possibly live in eternal bliss when they know some of their loved ones are being tortured for eternity?

And why would God deem it just to torture people indefinitely with no chance of forgiveness ever? How is it that God has totally forgotten the idea of forgiveness which he supposedly taught to mankind in the form of Jesus Christ? Having people tortured for all eternity is the most immoral possible action one can do, therefore God has to be the most immoral being in the entire universe if there really is a hell. Nobody deserves infinite punishment, for the simple reason that we can only commit a finite number of wrongdoings in the finite time we have on earth.

Why doesn't God punish Satan? Why does God allow Satan to enjoy whatever sick pleasure he gets from torturing people by tossing him all the sinful souls?

And, what are the criteria for going to hell as opposed to heaven? Where is the cutoff point? If a man is just beneath the cutoff point and gets hit by a bus just before he's about to do some grand noble deed, does he go to hell? And if he does the noble deed before getting hit by a bus, does he go to heaven? That makes no sense. To anybody with any experience in human society, it's obvious that there aren't two groups of people called "good people" and "evil people". There is a continuum between extremely good people and extremely evil people, with most people lying at various points between the two extremes. Any real system of justice would have to take this into account, dishing out reward and punishment in varying amounts depending on where the individual lies on that continuum.

Hell, obviously, is a primitive concept invented by ancient superstitious people who were struggling with two things: the existence of evil in a world they assumed to be ruled by an all-loving god, and the apparent lack of a karmic system of justice in our lives (good things happen to bad people and vice versa). It's safe to say we can dispose of this destructive idea in our modern, scientific society. And it's crucial to realizing that reward and punishment need to be made by human efforts here on earth if we want a world with any semblance of justice.

Pass That Shit

12-09-2006, 11:03 PM

Seperation from God is death. Without him we are dead. We can be walking the earth dead but are not in hell. Hell is a literal place under the earth. It's a temporary grave for the dead soul. But yet in hell, a dead soul has eyes and a tongue and feelings.

wayoftheleaf

12-09-2006, 11:16 PM

hell is actually a waiting point. After the rapture, all of those in hell are sent into the lake of fire with satan, after 1000 years of life on earth with jesus christ erecting the capital in jerusalem, satan is allowed to tempt god's new children for one season, after that all of god's faithful create a new kingdom and jesus vanquishes satan to the lake of fire for all eternity.

And once you die, if you go to heaven(we actually don't go to heaven until after satan is permently sealed in the lake of fire, before that we are in a waiting point like hell, but much more luxiourious)you no longer miss those who will or are in hell. You understand that they had the same choise as you and they didn't do what they should have done. You might feel a twinge of regret, but not sorrow.

mfqr

12-10-2006, 01:36 AM

hell is a place where all the cool things happen. in fact, the truth is actually the opposite of what the bible says. it's all a trick--worship god and go to heaven. however, the name 'heaven' is deceptive, because it is actually what the bible says hell is. in reality, hell is what the bible says heaven is. it's all a trick, worship satan.

MastaChronic

12-10-2006, 04:16 AM

yes, worship me

Oneironaut

12-11-2006, 06:46 AM

Wow, Christians believe some crazy shit, don't they? I mean, seriously, you believe all this stuff about the rapture and hell and Satan and all that, based on, what? Some ancient collection of Jewish mythology and some cryptic writings about one of many people claiming to be the messiah in first century Judaea...

It seems equally logical to put one's faith in the Qur'an, which was supposedly dictated to the prophet Muhammed in the seventh century by Allah through the angel Gabriel.

Or to put one's faith in Homer's Odyssey, which describes how the many gods helped Greece in its conquest of Troy.

I mean, we have all these ancient mythological writings on file, and we can be sure that most of them are flat out wrong for the simple reason that they all contradict each other. What makes the outlandish claims of the Bible particularly believable?

I am convinced that belief in the Bible or any other ancient mythological writings cannot possibly be based on logic or reason. In the vast majority of cases religious faith boils down to a little bit of wishful thinking and a lot of tradition and authority (usually from the parents and/or the culture of the particular region where the individual happens to live).

delusionsofNORMALity

12-11-2006, 02:36 PM

Wow, Christians believe some crazy shit...
yup!

religions are based on some really crazy shit and christianity has stolen/borrowed from most of them.

the whole eternal punishment thing seems to be a bit over the top though. i mean, i can understand the elitist mentality that would create heaven to reward the believers of the "true faith", but why do they feel they must punish the rest of us.

and for eternity too, how vindictive is that!!!!!

Oneironaut

12-11-2006, 03:09 PM

And once you die, if you go to heaven(we actually don't go to heaven until after satan is permently sealed in the lake of fire, before that we are in a waiting point like hell, but much more luxiourious)you no longer miss those who will or are in hell.
So, what happens? Does God take over my mind and reprogram me so I am incapable of feeling that emotion?

You understand that they had the same choise as you and they didn't do what they should have done. You might feel a twinge of regret, but not sorrow.
No, sorry, but you can't tell me what emotions I would feel in a particular circumstance. I'm pretty sure if I knew my loved ones were being tortured for eternity under the orders of an egomaniacal cosmic dictator called God, I would feel more than a "twinge of regret" (this is because I'm not a cold heartless bastard). And I would most definitely not feel a smug sense of moral superiority as you might.

mrdevious

12-11-2006, 09:01 PM

EDIT: sorry, meant to make this an individual post.

hazetwostep

12-22-2006, 06:41 AM

harris,

to answer your question and not get into the debate of whether or not there is a hell...

satan (aka lucifer) was kicked out of heaven for planning a rebellion against god. he (along with 1/3 of the angels who followed him) were kicked out of heaven (hebrew for 3rd heaven) into the atmosphere (hebrew for 2nd heaven) and was given that place to dwell (aka hell and satan was given charge over it). we dwell on the earth (hebrew for 1st heaven)... man was given dominion over this heaven...

this is the belief of the majority of catholic and protestant sects...

Oneironaut

12-22-2006, 10:33 PM

That doesn't make any sense:

(1) God is omnipotent, and Satan should have known that rebelling against an omnipotent being is futile.
(2) God is omniscient, and Satan should have known that trying to plot in secret against an omniscient being is futile.
(3) God should have been unafraid of the rebellion, since he could have easily defeated it.
(4) God should have vanquished Satan to stop him from doing evil deeds, instead of rewarding him with a whole dominion full of souls to play around with as he pleases.
(5) If Satan is really bent on rebelling against God, he would treat kindly the souls in his dominion, so they will be swayed to his side and join his army voluntarily. He wouldn't torture people's souls for doing stuff God doesn't want them to do. He should be pleased with all the souls who turn away from God.

Hamlet

12-23-2006, 12:06 AM

That doesn't make any sense

It makes perfect sense when you look at it along side other mythologies. Zeus tormenting Prometheus, Hermes and his shinanigans; Odin, Thor and the crew having all the heavenly fun in the stories told about them.

You see in the old days they didn't view God as we would probably consider him now; as an all-encompassing spirit permeating everything. The Universe wasn't as big. God to them lived on that mountain they couldn't climb; was up in the clouds and threw lightning at them.

Actually the Old Testament didn't deny other gods. The Hebrews just considered theirs the greatest and you weren't supposed to have other gods before him. War back then was about 'capturing the god'. If you could take the other guys statue of their god, your god was greater than theirs. (or if yours was captured, your own god delivered you into captivity for being bad)

Of course the stories get blended with other mythologies, borrowing from one another. The Greeks had Heracules, the Hebrews had Samson, and so on. Hell was borrowed from the Greeks Hades, with a little bit of Egyptian underworld stuff thrown in for good measure.

In fact, this is one of the tamer stories when you think about the Earth resting on the back of a great turtle and other fables to explain the Universe.

harris7

12-23-2006, 02:24 AM

It makes perfect sense when you look at it along side other mythologies. Zeus tormenting Prometheus, Hermes and his shinanigans; Odin, Thor and the crew having all the heavenly fun in the stories told about them.

You see in the old days they didn't view God as we would probably consider him now; as an all-encompassing spirit permeating everything. The Universe wasn't as big. God to them lived on that mountain they couldn't climb; was up in the clouds and threw lightning at them.

Actually the Old Testament didn't deny other gods. The Hebrews just considered theirs the greatest and you weren't supposed to have other gods before him. War back then was about 'capturing the god'. If you could take the other guys statue of their god, your god was greater than theirs. (or if yours was captured, your own god delivered you into captivity for being bad)

Of course the stories get blended with other mythologies, borrowing from one another. The Greeks had Heracules, the Hebrews had Samson, and so on. Hell was borrowed from the Greeks Hades, with a little bit of Egyptian underworld stuff thrown in for good measure.

In fact, this is one of the tamer stories when you think about the Earth resting on the back of a great turtle and other fables to explain the Universe.

What is your position towards people who believe the bible literally, word for word.

Hamlet

12-23-2006, 03:23 AM

What is your position towards people who believe the bible literally, word for word.

I've never met anyone who believes in the Bible literally, word for word. I know a lot of people who claim to, and they're never rational about it- Mainly from fear of the above-mentioned topic. Most haven't even read it and are told what to believe about it by their particular religions. But besides that fact, the Bible contradicts itself so much that you would be forced to believe two opposing statements simultaniously.

harris7

12-23-2006, 03:41 AM

well the bible contradicts itself very frequently. and yes it "should" pose very big problems for fundamentalists. but it dosn't, odd. why would that be?
The things is, these people actually believe contradicting things. several of the people on here do, but they somehow rationalize it for themselves

I haven’t met anyone like that either. but i'm going to very soon!!!!!!
my buddy has a g/l i haven’t met and she dosn't believe in evolution.
this is very exciting for me. i've never met someone who dosn't.
except on here

harris7

12-23-2006, 03:44 AM

See one thing that bugged me is that, God created everything. Then god declared what was right and what was wrong. So killing in his opinion was wrong, so if you kill --- no heaven. Or a better one, if you have sex b4 your married ---n o heaven. Or the best, if you touch yourself-------NO heaven (black sin)

So why did god create us and the universe in such away that we desire what we are not supposto do? God knows all and controls all, so he did this on purpose so why?

Why did he choose to torment his greatest achievement?

Hamlet

12-23-2006, 04:23 AM

So why did god create us and the universe in such away that we desire what we are not supposto do? God knows all and controls all, so he did this on purpose so why?

Why did he choose to torment his greatest achievement?

Those questions have been beat to death, and someone who has their minds set on that being the way it is, is never going to say 'yeah, that's not exactly rational, is it?"

But to understand those questions, you have to understand the times, the purpose of religion as an early form of Government and crowd control, etc.

If you go from the assumption that it is all literal, you'll never see a rational answer to them. But if you go from the perspective that these are the things that the culture who came up with this stuff was trying to accomplish, suddenly it all starts clicking into place.

Oh, and expect a lot of hostility from the buddies g/f if you confront her on her beliefs. It's human nature.

the yeag

12-23-2006, 04:44 AM

hell is a real place it is located smack dab right in the fucking middle of sandusky ohio

Pass That Shit

12-23-2006, 05:35 AM

harris7

12-23-2006, 07:54 PM

Those questions have been beat to death, and someone who has their minds set on that being the way it is, is never going to say 'yeah, that's not exactly rational, is it?"

But to understand those questions, you have to understand the times, the purpose of religion as an early form of Government and crowd control, etc.

If you go from the assumption that it is all literal, you'll never see a rational answer to them. But if you go from the perspective that these are the things that the culture who came up with this stuff was trying to accomplish, suddenly it all starts clicking into place.

Oh, and expect a lot of hostility from the buddies g/f if you confront her on her beliefs. It's human nature.

Hamlet, I do realize these aren’t particularly original questions. It’s just another literal inconsistency in the bible.
Still, to some they should be troubling. And as you said they will never agree, look at Pass that shit. I find that troubling

First off! Since I am an atheist I have no assumptions on the bible. I work my arguments on the assumptions of others. Hamlet, even though we both agree it is ridiculous some people believe the bible to be literally the word of god. My personal reasons for not believing are a mix between the concepts in the bible I find problems with, and the lack of reason to believe**. By lack or reason I mean that there are no convincing reasons to believe.

Trust me, I understand the “times” Christianity is possibly the best method of control over a population that you cannot control physically. Now we use the media for the same purpose. See Chomsky’s book “necessary illusions”. I also find intrest in other less obvious “teachings” in the bible which served the public very well back then. Big fancy supernatural reasons why we shouldn’t kill, or steal, or why we should drink booze. As booze as the safest drink in most places. AS the bacteria used to create it kills off pathogenic bacteria. Interesting shit

Oh and everyone reacts when you question their beliefs.
That is why we should do it ourselves

Harris, I think I see your point of view. God is evil and you are righteous. That is logic in your mind right?
He will provide the answers to your questions.

You will never understand my point of view.

RichieRich

02-24-2007, 05:59 PM

Thought I would chime in here and give my opinion.
1. Hell is a real place
2. Hell is hot and you don't want to go there.
3. Hell is not run by Satan.
4. Hell is not a party pad where all the "bad" people go to play.

I also would like to add another point here. God crushed his own son because of sin. If God really sent his OWN SON to earth to die for sins, Why would you think that he wouldn't send you to hell? If God didn't spare his own son, why would we think he wouldn't do that to us?

Once again my usual disclaimer here. I apologize to anyone I may have offended that was not my intention. Peace....:jointsmile:

Gatekeeper777

02-24-2007, 06:10 PM

It depends on your religious beliefs as to if HELL exsists or not.
My bible says HADES not HELL.
Hell was an actual place not a spititual place out side of the city walls where the city garbage was dumped as well as where people went to take a dump.
then again some people say THIS is hell and you have to work your way out.
Aren't you glad that god loved you enough to make a place to send you to be tourchered for eternity if you dont listen? I sure am.
Thanks GOD you sadistic prick!

BluntMan&Chronic

02-24-2007, 06:14 PM

I think you should lay off the peyody for a w:jointsmile: hile lol

orange floyd

02-24-2007, 06:24 PM

1. While alive on earth, one can only commit a finite number of crimes
2. "Hell", or any similar place, is infinite punishment
3. Infinite punishment for finite number of crimes is clearly unjust

iPot

02-24-2007, 08:39 PM

All these monks thousands of years ago wanked too much and alll their hair fell out. Some of it landed on a match that one of the monks had just used to light his lantern but failed to extinguish properly, and it all went up in flames. A terrible catastrophe it was, it is written in the lost books that they called this period the catachasm, for many years and many fires burned the ground and people starved and died of malnur. In the end one man was left standing, his name was Satan and by god I tell you he was one evil bastard. He still is! But now he lives roughly a hundred km under the ground somewhere off the coast of the Pentasula. No-one has seen the clown for several generations, he prefers to stay down below in the furnace of hell, oh yeah its just a place like any other, but its under da ground and its too hot for ya ass, y'all don't go there hear.

JunkYard

02-24-2007, 09:18 PM

Another old one, lol.. . ..

Hell exists, but it exist only in heart and mind; (On a Spiritual level) just like heaven, and both can be one's reality on earth. If there's an after life, I suspect that our state of being will determine what we experience, or perhaps we are re-born into the same world we leave behind and simply start all over, or maybe nothing at all, haha!

If it IS eternal, then in my mind, it is eternal in the sense that we have many lifetimes, which is my personal view, and until we develope the ability to find peace within, we are doomed to experience the fires of hell in self.

What matters is how we spend our time here on earth today, and how we condition ourselves to experience life in the now. (Imo) :smokin:

Junk~

jdmarcus59

03-03-2007, 04:05 AM

melloweedman

03-07-2007, 05:43 AM

Man there are a lot of crazy theories out there That's what happens when you let people tell you the Bible instead of reading it.

I live in the USA, and it seems that our language is riddled with references to â??hell.â? I constantly hear that extremely versatile word used in conversations of all kinds. People say: â??What the hell?â? or â??The hell with it,â? or â??Hell, yes / no,â? etc. On occasion, some people, though not travel agents, have encouraged me to â??go to hell.â? I donâ??t think I want to, because Iâ??ve heard that the Devil lives there, but if I did want to just drive by, where exactly is it located? Based on what people are saying, I assume that â??hellâ? is a word used in the Bible, and if so, what is â??hellâ??
Actually, at this time, there is no such place, other than the small town of Hell, Michigan, which, by the way, has, on occasion, frozen over. But it hardly meets the description of the â??Hellâ? that is propounded by so many Christians who erroneously believe that it is a place of everlasting fire where the â??living deadâ? (???) are tormented forever in flames.

Also, the word â??hellâ? is not found anywhere in the original text of Scripture. In the King James Version, you will find it as the translation of the Greek words hades and gehenna, but most modern translations recognize that â??hellâ? is an incorrect translation for hades, and more correctly render it as â??grave.â? Even modern translations, however, do sometimes mistakenly translate the Greek word gehenna as â??hell.â?

So how did the word â??hellâ? so permeate our culture? In this relatively brief answer, we refer you to two excellent books that will clearly show you, in detail, just what the Word of God says about this most significant issue. Is There Death After Life? by Mark Graeser, John Lynn, and John Schoenheit (108 pp), sets forth what the Word says about death and its aftermath, while The Fire That Consumes, by Edward Fudge (211 pp), is a very thorough exposition of â??conditional immortality,â? including the origin of the idea of â??hellâ? as a place of everlasting torment for the wicked. Both are available from our ministry.

One of Satanâ??s ploys to make Christianity look foolish is to introduce ridiculous ideas (that is, ideas that can legitimately be ridiculed because they make no sense) into its theology. In regard to this overall subject, here are two such errors that came into Christianity from Hellenistic (Greek) thought:

There is no such thing as actual â??deathâ? (defined in just about any dictionary as â??the end, or absence, of lifeâ?).
When one â??dies,â? he then lives on in some conscious, incorporeal form called the â??soulâ? or â??spirit.â?
The lie that man is deathless (introduced by the Devil in Genesis 3:4 and later believed by the Greeks) spawned the corresponding notion that there must be an eternal residence for good people and another address for bad people. Thus arose the following falsehoods:

A dead person goes either to â??heavenâ? or â??hellâ? and stays there forever.
â??Hellâ? is a place of everlasting torment in flames.
Fire is a preservative (who else believes this?).
It is ironic that most Christians believe that Adolph Hitler will have everlasting life. You might be thinking: â??What?! No they donâ??t.â? But think againâ??if Hitler is being tormented forever in fire, does he or does he not have everlasting life? Itâ??s a crummy life, but it is everlasting life, right? On the contrary, Romans 6:23 says: â??For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is everlasting life in Christ Jesus our Lord.â? God never says that the wages of sin is eternal torment. No, He says that the penalty for sin is an end to oneâ??s life.

It is important to realize that no verse in the Bible says that the â??soulâ? or â??spiritâ? lives on by itself. No verse says that â??hellâ? is a place of everlasting torment in fire. These falsehoods originated with Godâ??s archenemy, and infiltrated Christianity via mistranslation and the mixing of Greek culture and beliefs with the truths presented in the Word of God.

Thinking logically, does it seem fair to you that God, who the Bible says is love, would forever inflict upon wicked people the excruciating agony of constantly burning? Think about itâ??if â??foreverâ? were likened to a feast, 50 million years of torment is a small hors dâ??oeuvre. Wouldnâ??t most rational thinkers conclude that, even for quintessential bad boys like Hitler or Bin Laden, that is simply not fair? Sure they would. Justice would not be served by such an egregious atrocity, and how sad it is that this erroneous belief has contributed to many people turning away from the God whom they were told would do such a thing.

The late Sidney Hatch well expressed how twisted is the idea of a just God forever tormenting by fire those who refused to believe in Him: â??A civilized society looks with horror upon the abuse and torture of children or adults. Even where capital punishment is practiced, the aim is to implement it as mercifully as possible. Are we to believe then that a holy Godâ??our heavenly Fatherâ??is less just than the courts of men? Of course not.â?

And the late Swedish Lutheran Bishop John Persone wrote: â??For me it is inexplainable how a person who holds the orthodox view [of eternal torment] can at any time have a glad moment in this life. He is constantly mingling with people whose final destiny will be to be tormented eternally without endâ?¦To me it is even more inexplainable that such an â??orthodoxâ?? person can expect even a happy moment in eternity, when he knows that contemporaneously with his blessed estate continues the endless torment and agony of innumerable millions of the accursed. Can he, if he loves his neighbors as himself, yes, even if he has just a little bit of human love and is not solely a selfish wretch, have even a single happy moment?â? Well said, wouldnâ??t you agree?

Think for a moment about fire. What does it do to things it touches? What do you do if you come home and discover that your house is on fire? Do you feel any sense of urgency? Or do you say, â??Hey, letâ??s go to a movie, and when we get back, weâ??ll call the Fire Department. Thereâ??s no hurry, because we know that our home will burn forever.â? Nothing burns forever, and a simple word study of â??fireâ? in Scripture shows that its primary purpose is to destroy useless things, like chaff, and evil things, like wicked people, evil spirits, and Satan (Malachi 4:1 is a classic example).

This FAQ about â??hellâ? is not the place to exposit the biblical truth that death is the end of life, and that one who dies no longer exists anywhere in any form. That by itself renders fallacious the notion that â??hellâ? is a place where â??deadâ? people are alive and conscious. In His Word, God artfully chose the metaphor of â??sleepâ? to figuratively describe death. Why? Because sleep is a temporary condition of unconsciousness that ends with an awakening. Ditto for death, for one who believes in Jesus Christ.

Where there is no consciousness, there is no awareness of time passing. Therefore, the Apostle Paulâ??s next conscious thought will be when he sees the face of the Lord Jesus at his appearing. Until that glorious moment, Paul, like all who have died and â??returned to dust,â? no longer exists. Nor will he ever exist again unless Jesus Christ actually died, rose from the dead, ascended to heaven, and comes again to raise Christians who have died. 1 Thessalonians 4:18 says that this truth is the only basis for genuine comfort for the bereaved. How important is this subject? Itâ??s a matter of life and death.

In the Old Testament, the Hebrew word sheol means â??the state, or place, of the dead,â? and is usually translated as â??graveâ? (see Ps. 6:5, 16:10, 49:15, 89:48, et al). Because there is not literally any such place, it could also be translated as â??gravedom.â? The Hebrews recognized that man is an integrated being who is either alive or dead (to us, this is obvious). They understood that man does not have a soul, but rather that, as per Genesis 2:7, man is a living â??soulâ? (nephesh), that is, a living person. When he dies, he is then a dead soul (e.g., Lev. 19:28, 21:1; Num. 5:2, 6:6, 11), that is, a dead person.

In contrast to the teaching of the Old Testament, most Greeks believed that man has â??an immortal soul,â? which they saw as the non-corporeal essence of his being that was trapped in the temporal, fleshly prison of his body until the wonderful moment when his body â??diedâ? and his â??soulâ? could freely wing its way to Mt. Olympus, the land of Shades, or somewhere else.

Because of this belief, the Greeks had no word that corresponded with the idea expressed by the Hebrew word sheol. The closest thing they could find was hades, and that is what those who produced the Septuagint (a translation of the Old Testament from Hebrew to Greek) chose as the counterpart to sheol. As they do with sheol in the Old Testament, some English versions of the Bible erroneously translate the Greek word hades as â??hellâ? in the New Testament [For a thorough examination of the meaning of sheol and hades, see the word â??hellâ? in E.W. Bullingerâ??s A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (Zondervan Pub. Co., Grand Rapids MI)].

The impact of translating sheol as hades cannot be overstated. In sheol, everyone is dead, but in the Greek language and culture, everyone in Hades is alive. Thus, by the stroke of the pen of the Septuagintâ??s translators, all the dead (in sheol) were granted life after death in hades. The Greek-speaking Hebrews, reading their Greek Bible, would naturally come to believe that â??the dead are aliveâ? (it was, after all, in their Bible). This explains why, at the time of Jesus, many Jews believed that the souls of the dead lived on after the person died, and why Jesus would speak a parable springboarding off that belief (Lazarus in â??Abrahamâ??s bosomâ? â?? Luke 16. For a full explanation of this, see â??Difficult Scriptures Explained.â?

We should note that the English word â??hellâ? comes from an Old English word meaning â??to conceal.â? The first definition in Websterâ??s Third New International Dictionary is â??a place or state of the dead or of the damned; usually under the groundâ? (hence, the idea of â??concealedâ?). The second definition is â??a place or state of misery, torment, or wickedness.â?

The idea that â??hellâ? is a place of eternal torment came about because the word hades carried with it all the connotation of Greek mythology, in which Hades was the god of the underworld, a place where the souls of dead people went to be tormented. As Bullinger writes in Appendix 131 of The Companion Bible: â??The Old Testament is the fountainhead of the Hebrew language. It has no literature behind it. But the case is entirely different with the Greek language. The Hebrew sheol is divine in its origin and usage. The Greek hades is human in its origin and comes down to us laden with centuries of development, in which it has acquired new senses, meanings, and usages.â?

Scripture most certainly does speak of a place of fire where wicked people will be â??punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lordâ? (2 Thess. 1:9). This is gehenna, a Greek word that the Gospel writers used in reference to what is elsewhere called â??the lake of fire.â? It is significant that not only wicked people will be destroyed there, but also â??death and the graveâ? will be forever exterminated (see Rev. 20:12-15).

Gehenna is the Greek word for the Hebrew â??valley of Hinnom,â? which was the city dump outside of Jerusalem. When Jesus used this word to refer to the place of the future destruction of the wicked (e.g., Matt. 10:28â??still erroneously translated as â??hellâ? even in modern Bible versions), all who heard him knew exactly what he meant. As the note on Matthew 5:22 in the NIV Study Bible says:

â??The Greek word is gehenna, which derives its name from a deep ravine south of Jerusalem, the â??valley of Hinnom.â?? During the reigns of the wicked Ahaz and Manasseh, human sacrifices to the Ammonite god Molech were offered there. Josiah desecrated the valley because of the pagan worship there (2 Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31, 32; 19:6). It became a sort of perpetually burning city dump and later a figure for the place of final punishment.â?

As Edward Fudge points out in The Fire That Consumes:

â??New Testament writers chose the word gehenna to describe the fate of the lost only in the Gospels, speaking only to Jews, and only when addressing people familiar with the geography of Jerusalem.â?

The lake of fire is also called â??the second deathâ? (Rev. 21:8). What does that mean? Godâ??s Word clearly states that the Lord Jesus Christ will raise from the dead everyone who has ever lived, and that â??those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemnedâ? (John 5:29). Pending that Adolph Hitler had no â??deathbed conversion,â? he will one day face the Lord Jesus to account for his evil ways, and after that be cast into the lake of fire to be annihilated. He died once physically, and he will â??dieâ? againâ??forever out of existence.

Do you think that those listening to Jesus speak of the wicked burning in gehenna thought he meant they would burn forever? Of course not, because they knew that the garbage they took to the city dump did not continue to exist in the fire without being consumed. Rather, it burned up, and was gone. Jesus used the word gehenna to illustrate that the wicked were like the garbage, refuse worthy only of destruction. The only reason the fire continued to burn was because the whole city kept throwing their garbage there. Likewise, when it has done its job, the lake of fire will be no more.

If Revelation 20:10 is coming to your mind as an apparent contradiction to what you have read thus far, thatâ??s greatâ??it should. It speaks of the Devil and a couple of his henchman being thrown in the lake of fire and being â??tormented day and night forever and ever.â? However, the Bible was not written in English, and when we dig a bit deeper, we see that â??forever and everâ? in the Greek is more accurately â??for ages unto ages.â? In keeping with Godâ??s decree in Genesis 3:15 that Jesus would eventually â??crush the headâ? of the Devil (that is, destroy him), Ezekiel 28:18 declares that the Devil will be â??brought to ashes.â? Apparently, as a fitting recompense for his monstrous evil, this will take a long time.

Some Christians argue that annihilation is not a sufficient threat to stop people, and that the threat of burning forever is a more effective deterrent to sin. However, this is looking at the Scripture the wrong way. God says that it is His â??kindnessâ? that leads people to repentance (Rom. 2:4), not His threats of death, although that might work, because it is programmed within mankind to do whatever it takes to stay alive. Apparently, the thought of not existing is more terrifying to most people than the thought of living even under horrible conditions. What God does do is set forth His great love in giving His Son, and encourage people to believe in him and have everlasting life.

If God were trying to use the threat of eternal torment as a deterrent to sin, John 3:16 might read: â??For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in him should not burn forever, but have everlasting life.â? And God could have made that plain in many other verses as well. The fact that the Bible simply says â??perishâ? indicates that the unsaved will die, and thus exist no more. What faces those who refuse Godâ??s gift of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is annihilation. They will be terminated, goneâ??history. And the rest of us, because of the grace of God and the work of Jesus Christ, will live happily ever after.

For those who believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, he has paid the price for their sin, and he will give them the gift of life in the age to come. Those who refuse to believe in him will pay the penalty for sin themselves. How? By dying forever in the lake of fire. Everlasting life is just thatâ??life without end, and everlasting death is destruction without hope of recallâ??permanent extermination. This is Godâ??s perfect justice, and it is definitely a matter of life and death.

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JunkYard

03-07-2007, 06:31 AM

Excellent post, weedman. I'm somewhat a universalist in that I believe that none will "perish" Sure there will be a second death, but that death will be a death of the natural into spiritual. ?We are all going to die twice, and come into life everlasting, meaning this: Those who die to self in this life (Born again) must die again in the physical sense. Those who don't die to self in this life will die physical, and then to self spiritual. (Born again)

There is no way around it in my mind. Hell is reserved for the wicked one, and the children of the wicked one, which is to say his fruits. Not actual people or children per se.

If you look at the parable of the tares and wheat, you'll get an idea as to what is going to happen, or at least MY view of what is going to happen.

24. Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: The man is Christ, The field is the world, or "us"

25. But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. The enemy is God's adversary, or that which is in conflict with God's spirit.

26. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. This is the "Natural" condition of the inward man after the fall

27. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?

28. He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?

29. But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.

30. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Christ explains this parable.. . ..

37. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man (Christ the "man")

38. The field is the world; (Us) the good seed are the children of the kingdom; (Christ the "spirit" and his â??Spiritualâ? fruits) but the tares are the children of the wicked one; (The spiritual fruits of the adversary, or that which is in conflict love or God)

39. The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; (This is in reference to being born again) and the reapers are the angels.

40. As therefore the tares (The children, or "Fruits" of the wicked one i.e. Anger, bitterness, hate, violence, intolerance, resentment, and all things that are in conflict with love.) are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The end of the world simply is to say, the end of the natural â??Sinfulâ? man. To be born again in Godâ??s spirit (in this life or the next i.e. second death) is the core of this parable, Imo. The devil is simply defined as God's adversary, i.e. that which opposes love in the spiritual realm. None are going to perish, but that which is an offence to God's and man. It's all spiritual, Imo.