Hardest "Christian" thing to do?

[Nylo]

What is the number one teaching of Christianity that is the hardest for youto follow? I believe heavily in the teachings of Christ, but like every other human being in the world I "walk the line" like a drunk with a blindfold on. Atheists and agnostics please post your opinions, too; what do you think is the most demanding and spritually testing? Do you think the world would be a better place if more people followed it, or about the same?

For me, personally: Love thy enemy.

[Cyclonite]

I would say giving away my hard earned $$ to rich and powerful religious organizations.

[renovator4]

we all wear our own yoke, even non believers of course theirs are lighter, you are the only one liable for your own faith. stay true to your beliefs an live up to what you know is right

[JunkYard]

My guess would be a few things...I have a small list of common Christian strongholds.

1) Getting over intolerance --> Not a Christian value
2) Getting rid of fear --> Not a true Christian value
3) Loving ourselves --> Is this even in the Bible?
4) Loving others --> easier than loving self
5) Loving our enemies --> #1 Hardest Christian teaching to follow, imo
6) Forgiving others and self --> Can be really hard
7) Having faith in what God made us --> Almost non-existant among Christian Faiths

I think these are all important things when dealing with life as we know it, and something most of us have problem with. Including non-Christians, imo.

We're all basicly the same as far as I can see. We just believe, and value different things...

My morning bake got me --> :stoned: <-- I feel very good right now

[Pass That Shit]

"And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might."

[JunkYard]

Is that the hardest for you, PTS? :confused:

I find it really easy to Love my creator...

Peace,

[psychocat]

Turn the other cheek.
You hurt me , I hurt you more.
Vengeance is mine ,,, fuck the lord.

[Oneironaut]

Yeah, I've always found loving your enemies and turning the other cheek to be pretty stupid rules. If Jesus were in charge, he would have just allowed Hitler and Mussolini and Hirohito to take over the world. Like it or not, violence is sometimes necessary for self-defense.

But that's not the worst of it. If we take Jesus at his word, he demands we do things so grossly unethical that not even the most fundamentalist Bible-thumper would dare consider doing them. Here's an example from the celebrated Sermon on the Mount.

Near the beginning of his speech, Jesus makes clear his relation to the previous prophets in the Bible (specifically Moses):
Matthew 5:17-20: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven."

Okay, so the laws of Moses are perfect and immutable (and you have to be as righteous as the prophets to get into heaven, but let's ignore that part for now).

He later goes on to say, in Matthew 5:27-28:

Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
This is obviously a reference to one of the Ten Commandments (Exodus 20:14).

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
All right, so looking at a woman lustfully counts as adultery. So, that means that pretty much every man is guilty of adultery, since we have these innate sex drives that we can't possibly control that cause us to look at women lustfully.

And what does the perfect and immutable law of the prophets, the law that Jesus came not to destroy but to fulfil, the law from which one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass till heaven and earth pass, have to say about adulterers?

Well, in Leviticus 20:10, the Lord gives the following commandment to Moses:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
So, if looking at a woman lustfully counts as adultery, and adultery is bad because the prophets told us not to commit adultery, and the prophets also told us to kill adulterers, then shouldn't we logically kill every man who has looked lustfully at a woman? I think that would be a pretty hard Christian thing to do.

[JunkYard]

Oneironaut, I look at woman with lust at times. BUT, I'm not a married man, so its not adultery, right? Sure, Jesus didn't specify, but I'm certain those hearing his words knew the definition of adultery. Do you really think, that Jesus would imply that a single man, not yet married, would be sinning if he thought about sex? That's just crazy, imo! Btw, stoning was an ancient practice, but certainly wasn't Gods law. I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where 'God' demanded adulterers to be stoned...wasn't that Moses? Certainly NOT in the ten commandments.

Love your enemy is a good rule of thumb if you ask me. It helps us erase the intolorant attitude we all possess. BUT, if I get struck a third time we're gonna roll!

Also, Jesus didn't say you had to be as righteous as the prophets. He said scribes and Pharisees. I think he refered to the pharisees as vipers:

Matthew 3:7

7. But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

He also said that whosoever broke the least of the commandents, would be the least in the kindgdom. I assume that kingdom would be the 'kingdom of heaven', so what's your point?

I don't understand...

[Oneironaut]

Oneironaut, I look at woman with lust at times. BUT, I'm not a married man, so its not adultery, right? Sure, Jesus didn't specify, but I'm certain those hearing his words knew the definition of adultery. Do you really think, that Jesus would imply that a single man, not yet married, would be sinning if he thought about sex? That's just crazy, imo! Btw, stoning was an ancient practice, but certainly wasn't Gods law.
Even if that were true, God certainly doesn't have any problem with stoning. I don't recall any commandment "Thou shalt not stone". It's like the whole slavery thing. God could just come out and say "THAT'S BARBARIC!" but he doesn't. Funny how God's morality is malleable to the social milieu and the traditional customs of primitive nomadic tribes of desert warriors.

I don't recall anywhere in the Bible where 'God' demanded adulterers to be stoned...wasn't that Moses?
God demands adulterers to be executed in Leviticus 20:10. I never said anything about stoning.

Certainly NOT in the ten commandments.
What makes Exodus 20 God's true and eternal law but Leviticus 20 a barbaric ancient practice that is irrelevant in our modern culture? As far as I can tell from my reading of the Pentateuch, they have equal validity as God's immutable and perfect law to the prophet Moses. Jesus himself said not one jot or tittle would change from those laws until heaven and earth passed; that means Leviticus 20 must still apply, no?

Also, Jesus didn't say you had to be as righteous as the prophets. He said scribes and Pharisees. I think he refered to the pharisees as vipers:
You're right, my bad.

[JunkYard]

You're versed, eh?

Can I ask you something? Do you think a person can discern the spirit of truth and the spirit of error in the Bible, or are you the type that says "All or nothing"?

Jesus was a cool cat, man. At least, I think so. The Old testament God was made out to be a jealous, angry brute, but I think this is simply due to mankind putting our own err.. qualities on him. (You know what I mean)

I doubt God wanted anything to do with all the violence attributed to him in the Old Testament. Mankind created the Bible, and mankind created much of the Bible God, imo. I'm not a Christian, but I like reading the Bible, and sift through the BS, so I can get to what's real...or what I believe to be real.

Theres good stuff in there...

Much Love,

[Oneironaut]

And by the way, you might want to check out Exodus 21, the chapter that comes right after the Ten Commandments, full of more commandments from God that are for some reason ignored by pretty much every Christian and Jew I know.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html

21:1 Now these are the judgments which thou shalt set before them.

21:2 If thou buy an Hebrew servant, six years he shall serve: and in the seventh he shall go out free for nothing.

...

21:7 And if a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant, she shall not go out as the menservants do.

...

21:24 Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot,

21:25 Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe.
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?! This Jehovah character seems to totally contradict this Jesus guy who claims to be him.

[Jared530]

Is it against the teachings to smoke?

[JunkYard]

And by the way, you might want to check out Exodus 21, the chapter that comes right after the Ten Commandments, full of more commandments from God that are for some reason ignored by pretty much every Christian and Jew I know.
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/21.html

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whatever happened to "turn the other cheek"?! This Jehovah character seems to totally contradict this Jesus guy who claims to be him.

Jesus made the new law, which I view to be the correct one. Judge the spirit not the writ.

:smokin:

[Oneironaut]

You're versed, eh?

Can I ask you something? Do you think a person can discern the spirit of truth and the spirit of error in the Bible, or are you the type that says "All or nothing"?
Well, the Bible is a complicated book, but mostly it looks to be a collaboration of Jewish mythology which was used by their leaders to justify their territorial conquests, and appended to that is the story of a first-century Judaean man who may or may not have existed who like many others of the period claimed he was the messiah and performed some magic tricks and spoke a whole bunch of rhetoric about how we should act, which of course was heavily influenced by the cultural traditions of first-century Judaeans. An interesting historical document, but I'm afraid it doesn't seem to have any more validity than Homer's Odyssey.

Jesus was a cool cat, man. At least, I think so. The Old testament God was made out to be a jealous, angry brute, but I think this is simply due to mankind putting our own err.. qualities on him. (You know what I mean)
Why wouldn't God make a better holy book that portrays him as he truly is?

I doubt God wanted anything to do with all the violence attributed to him in the Old Testament. Mankind created the Bible, and mankind created much of the Bible God, imo. I'm not a Christian, but I like reading the Bible, and sift through the BS, so I can get to what's real...or what I believe to be real.

Theres good stuff in there...

Much Love,
I haven't really found a whole lot of good stuff. I mean, there are some common sense ethical things, like be nice and try not to hurt people or steal their stuff, but anybody could come up with that. Everybody knows stealing and killing and stuff is wrong, even people who have never even heard of the Bible. And there's a whole bunch of nonsense (There are three different spirits that are actually the same single spirit? Jesus becomes wine and bread that we drink and eat? Huh?) And then there's just complete crap, like the idea of giving up all self-defense, or gouging out my eyes if I commit a sin with them.

If you ask me, there are plenty of better philosophers out there with more detailed and logical ethical philosophies. Jesus, if he existed, was a product of his time, and he failed to condemn things like slavery and sexism and homophobia because in his time they were unquestioned traditions. We have transcended the ethics of first-century Judaea, and we can build for ourselves a better morality suited to our own modern society. We don't need ancient books to tell us what's right and what's wrong. It's much easier to figure it out for ourselves with trial and error, and rigorous thought. Ancient books are interesting to study, but they shouldn't be guides to our modern lives.

[Oneironaut]

Jesus made the new law, which I view to be the correct one. Judge the spirit not the writ.

:smokin:
So what's up with the old law then? Why couldn't God get it right the first time? How could he have fucked up so badly? If I were God, I wouldn't let a whole bunch of people going around saying I support slavery and baby-murdering and animal sacrifice and writing it down in their holy books. Why do Christians continue to publish this stuff? Why do they pick and choose which parts of the Old Testament they personally like and reject the ones they find morally disgusting? Do they think their own morality is better than the one God supposedly dictated to their holy prophets?

Is morality absolute or is it relative? Both, says the Christian!

[JunkYard]

God didn't make the Bible, man did, but it can serve as a great guide if you judge the spirit behind whats written. God won't interfere with what man chooses, so why would he interfere with how the Bible was written?

In my mind, I need no 'proof' of his existence...it's all around me. Why would God need give us more than what he gave in the beginning? (Life and creation) Besides, it doesn't matter if you believe in God, or not. He doesn't need, or demand your worship, imo. That is one of the most ridiculous concepts I've ever heard.

It [the Bible] can be complicated, but if you go in realizing that not everything written is literal, and judge by the spirit of Love, it's quite easy to sift through the BS, imo. Most Christians disagree, though, lol!

I think the crux of Jesus' message was love, and responsibility, and who knows what else Jesus said? How do you know he didn't condem those practices you mentioned? Only a very samll part of his life was recorded, but the part that was, is a wonderful testimony, imo.

Sure, there are other books you can derive many of the same ethics and principles from, but the Bible IS the most poplular. People like Ghandi, Buddha, and others of the like mind are great teachers just as Jesus was. It all comes down to what you choose to embrace, man.

Why the bitterness towards Jesus, God, and the Christians? They're just people looking for answers, too. Nevermind, I understand, man. I once felt the same way! I just decided to quit giving them power over me, and decided to make my own path. Minus, the attitude, inntolerance, bitterness, fear, and the anger that so many Christians display. My guide is the Bible. My teacher is Jesus, and no, I'm not a Christian...Just a fan of the man.

Much Love,

[JunkYard]

So what's up with the old law then? Why couldn't God get it right the first time? How could he have fucked up so badly? If I were God, I wouldn't let a whole bunch of people going around saying I support slavery and baby-murdering and animal sacrifice and writing it down in their holy books. Why do Christians continue to publish this stuff? Why do they pick and choose which parts of the Old Testament they personally like and reject the ones they find morally disgusting? Do they think their own morality is better than the one God supposedly dictated to their holy prophets?

Is morality absolute or is it relative? Both, says the Christian!

Why would he, man? We're allowed to fuck up...that's the beauty of free will. I'm sure God knows that we [mankind] will figure it out sooner or later, lol! The Bible is full of BS, and until we question what's written, including the man laws brought down from the so called prophets, it will remain the same. People like you don't help, either. You got the all or nothing attitude when it comes to the Bible, and that is the exact same problem with Christians. This attitude only reinforces their beliefs that the Bible is error free.

All or nothing...give me a break! Thats like saying in order to be an american, you have to agree with EVERYTHING our government does, and tells us.

Bahh!

[Oneironaut]

God didn't make the Bible, man did, but it can serve as a great guide if you judge the spirit behind whats written.
I judge the spirit behind slavery, genocide, killing someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and killing gay men to be hateful and outdated. And I judge the spirit of the long list of begats to be extremely boring. Please, direct me to the section of the Bible that has something enlightening that I can apply to my own life. Sure, there's a little bit in there, but it's very ambiguously worded, it has to be translated from ancient Hebrew/Greek, and it sure is surrounded by a lot of sexist, violent filler which also manages to get extreeeeemely boring despite all the disgustingness.

My name is Levi. Go read the Biblical story of Levi and the Shechemites and tell me what you think of the spirit behind that story. Needless to say, I'm not very pleased to be named after that asshole.

God won't interfere with what man chooses, so why would he interfere with how the Bible was written?
Are you kidding me? In the Bible, God interferes with what man chooses all the time! Noah's flood, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptian enslavement of the Jews, the leading of the Jews over other tribes. That's all interference.

I think if there really was a God, he would want people to know he exists and would want people to know a little bit about who he is. If he can't get off his ass to say anything to us or show himself, how can we possibly know anything about him? An entity about which we know nothing is indistinguishable from a non-existent entity.

In my mind, I need no 'proof' of his existence...it's all around me.
What? You need no proof, because the proof you need is all around you? That doesn't make any sense.

Why would God need give us more than what he gave in the beginning? (Life and creation) Besides, it doesn't matter if you believe in God, or not. He doesn't need, or demand your worship, imo. That is one of the most ridiculous concepts I've ever heard.
So what's the deal with the First Commandment? Jesus was a real big fan of the Ten Commandments, you know.

It [the Bible] can be complicated, but if you go in realizing that not everything written is literal, and judge by the spirit of Love,
It's hard with such a bigoted, hate-filled book.

it's quite easy to sift through the BS, imo. Most Christians disagree, though, lol!
I refuse to be part of a religion that has any kind of bullshit in its holy book. How can you even call it a holy book if it's actually a very holey book? I just don't see what's so special about it. It's badly written, it supports all kinds of barbarisms, and it trails off into a lot of nonsense quite often, and it's got a lot of filler. It just isn't very interesting and I haven't learned any deep moral lessons from it. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, that's all cool. But then it says don't look at hot chicks, don't eat shellfish, don't eat bats, don't eat snakes, don't wear two clothes of the same fabric, don't be gay, don't work on the Sabbath, don't do your animal sacrifices incorrectly or God won't like the smell of it, don't marry a divorced woman, don't take a shit in a hole and not cover it up, don't touch a chick when she's on her period, blah blah blah blah blah. It doesn't really sound that divinely inspired to me. A supreme being would definitely be able to come up with much better ideas than that.


I think the crux of Jesus' message was love, and responsibility, and who knows what else Jesus said? How do you know he didn't condem those practices you mentioned? Only a very samll part of his life was recorded, but the part that was, is a wonderful testimony, imo.
Lots of people believe in love and responsibility. Why not hold Socrates with the same merit. At least Socrates didn't pretend to be God or threaten you with eternal torture if you didn't behave yourself.

Sure, there are other books you can derive many of the same ethics and principles from, but the Bible IS the most poplular.
So what? It's barbaric.

People like Ghandi, Buddha, and others of the like mind are great teachers just as Jesus was. It all comes down to what you choose to embrace, man.

Why the bitterness towards Jesus, God, and the Christians? They're just people looking for answers, too.
Well, they're looking in the wrong places. I don't have any hostility towards Christians, I just find Christianity itself to be a bunch of superstitious hogwash mixed with some ambiguous moralities that lends itself too often to fundamentalism and extremism which can have disastrous consequences. Nobody ever started a witch hunt over an obscure passage in the early works of Voltaire, or instigated a Crusade over the eternal divine truth of Immanuel Kant's message to humanity.

Nevermind, I understand, man. I once felt the same way! I just decided to quit giving them power over me, and decided to make my own path. Minus, the attitude, inntolerance, bitterness, fear, and the anger that so many Christians display. My guide is the Bible. My teacher is Jesus, and no, I'm not a Christian...Just a fan of the man.

Much Love,
I just don't see what the big fuss is about Jesus. What was so important that he had to say? Play nice, and be responsible, and ask for forgiveness, or God will kick your ass? Ooh look, I'm God, watch me walk on water? Eat bread and drink wine and pretend you're cannibals eating me? What's so special about that message?

[JunkYard]

I judge the spirit behind slavery, genocide, killing someone for picking up sticks on the Sabbath, and killing gay men to be hateful and outdated. And I judge the spirit of the long list of begats to be extremely boring. Please, direct me to the section of the Bible that has something enlightening that I can apply to my own life. Sure, there's a little bit in there, but it's very ambiguously worded, it has to be translated from ancient Hebrew/Greek, and it sure is surrounded by a lot of sexist, violent filler which also manages to get extreeeeemely boring despite all the disgustingness.

Try Proverbs, or Psalms, or 'some' of John, 1 John, 2 John, theres alot of good stuff if you look, man but you won't find it w/o a willing attitude, sorry.



Are you kidding me? In the Bible, God interferes with what man chooses all the time! Noah's flood, the Tower of Babel, Sodom and Gomorrah, the Egyptian enslavement of the Jews, the leading of the Jews over other tribes. That's all interference.

If you choose to believe that....btw, he never interferes with 'choice' it was man's choice to portray God in that manner.


I think if there really was a God, he would want people to know he exists and would want people to know a little bit about who he is. If he can't get off his ass to say anything to us or show himself, how can we possibly know anything about him? An entity about which we know nothing is indistinguishable from a non-existent entity.

I don't need him to prove himself, but I guess others are different. Like I said, I don't think it matters if you 'believe', or not. It's your 'choice'. ;)


What? You need no proof, because the proof you need is all around you? That doesn't make any sense.

I exist, I see a beautiful creation, I see life, birth, death everyday. Why would I need anything more?


So what's the deal with the First Commandment? Jesus was a real big fan of the Ten Commandments, you know.

God IS life...Love life.


It's hard with such a bigoted, hate-filled book.

I know...


I refuse to be part of a religion that has any kind of bullshit in its holy book. How can you even call it a holy book if it's actually a very holey book? I just don't see what's so special about it.

Then don't, I'm certainly not asking you to. You have your Odyssey.


It's badly written, it supports all kinds of barbarisms, and it trails off into a lot of nonsense quite often, and it's got a lot of filler. It just isn't very interesting and I haven't learned any deep moral lessons from it. Don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, that's all cool. But then it says don't look at hot chicks, don't eat shellfish, don't eat bats, don't eat snakes, don't wear two clothes of the same fabric, don't be gay, don't work on the Sabbath, don't do your animal sacrifices incorrectly or God won't like the smell of it, don't marry a divorced woman, don't take a shit in a hole and not cover it up, don't touch a chick when she's on her period, blah blah blah blah blah. It doesn't really sound that divinely inspired to me. A supreme being would definitely be able to come up with much better ideas than that.

Yup, man twisted it up pretty good, huh?



Lots of people believe in love and responsibility. Why not hold Socrates with the same merit. At least Socrates didn't pretend to be God or threaten you with eternal torture if you didn't behave yourself.

I respect all who value these things. I believe the Church had an agenda when pushing the whole fire and brimstone issue...



Well, they're looking in the wrong places. I don't have any hostility towards Christians, I just find Christianity itself to be a bunch of superstitious hogwash mixed with some ambiguous moralities that lends itself too often to fundamentalism and extremism which can have disastrous consequences. Nobody ever started a witch hunt over an obscure passage in the early works of Voltaire, or instigated a Crusade over the eternal divine truth of Immanuel Kant's message to humanity.

I agree, the Bible in the hands of the fearful and true believers can be a dagerous thing.


I just don't see what the big fuss is about Jesus. What was so important that he had to say? Play nice, and be responsible, and ask for forgiveness, or God will kick your ass? Ooh look, I'm God, watch me walk on water? Eat bread and drink wine and pretend you're cannibals eating me? What's so special about that message?


Because it will be 'his' message that helps change the world...The Bible is going nowhere, man. People want to believe in Jesus. People need to believe in Jesus, and his words truly inspire. So does Ghandi, the teachings of Buddha and others of the like mind...


Much Love,

[Oneironaut]

don't wear two clothes of the same fabric
Sorry, I'm stoned. That was supposed to be a reference to Leviticus 19:19, the divine commandment against wearing clothing woven of two different fabrics. It's after the deep, insightful part where it says to not fuck your sister.

[JunkYard]

Sorry, I'm stoned. That was supposed to be a reference to Leviticus 19:19, the divine commandment against wearing clothing woven of two different fabrics. It's after the deep, insightful part where it says to not fuck your sister.

LMAO!

yup, that's would be insightful, hahahaha!

:D

[Oneironaut]

Try Proverbs, or Psalms, or 'some' of John, 1 John, 2 John, theres alot of good stuff if you look, man but you won't find it w/o a willing attitude, sorry.
I've read a lot of that stuff. God is great, yay for God, help us Lord, we're evil sinners, but we try to be good...yaaaaaawn... Don't tell me I haven't looked for something good in here. I keep reading and reading and it's just so boring and uninspiring. There's no plot structure, the characters are all so one-dimensional, and it repeats itself over and over again. Besides that, so much of it is really really hard to derive any actual meaning from. Even expert theologians can't figure out what this stuff is supposed to mean, because they're all interpreting it in their own way due to extremely vague wording.


If you choose to believe that....btw, he never interferes with 'choice' it was man's choice to portray God in that manner.
How do you know he doesn't interfere with choice? I myself find the idea of an all-powerful all-knowing being to be logically incompatible with the idea of free will, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to get into right now.

I don't need him to prove himself, but I guess others are different. Like I said, I don't think it matters if you 'believe', or not. It's your 'choice'. ;)
I can't help it, but my brain operates according to the rules of logic. I can't get it to accept an idea for which there is no evidence. It just won't fit in there. It's like trying to convince myself that unicorns exist. I'd have to actually see real evidence of a unicorn for my brain to accept that idea. Unicorns are things that should be very hard to miss.

As far as I'm concerned, there cannot logically be a God who does not interfere with our universe somehow. Anything that does not have a measurable effect on our universe is by definition non-existent. If God doesn't interfere with our lives, doesn't change things in our universe, then it is impossible to get any information on him and he cannot be said to exist in any meaningful sense of the term.

On the other hand, if he does interfere with our lives, there should be some objective evidence for that. His influence should be demonstrable somehow, and obvious to us. We are lacking in such evidence. I don't see why a God who supposedly loves us would keep himself so hidden.


I exist, I see a beautiful creation, I see life, birth, death everyday. Why would I need anything more?
Exactly. Isn't that enough? Why delude yourself with fictitious supernatural sky wizards? Life is beautiful; appreciate it for what it is: the magnificent product of Darwinian natural selection over billions of years, with no driven purpose in mind, a mosaic of the natural laws of our universe working in an inconceivably complex fashion. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy are all far more inspiring than the Bible. Give me Hawking, Dawkins or Sagan over Jesus anyday.

Yup, man twisted it up pretty good, huh?
I didn't twist it up, I opened up my Bible and that's the kind of stuff I read in it.

I respect all who value these things. I believe the Church had an agenda when pushing the whole fire and brimstone issue...
Actually, the fire and brimstone bit has been around since the earliest Christian writings. In fact, the Apocalypse of Peter (not the Gnostic text of the same name) was removed from the Biblical canon before the Council of Nicea established the modern Bible as we know it. Why? Because it was too gruesome in its depiction of what happens to sinners in Hell (it also described the pleasures of Heaven). In the early days of Christianity it had just as much validity as the other New Testament books we know today; it just seems the early Christians didn't like it too much and decided to do away with it.


I agree, the Bible in the hands of the fearful and true believers can be a dagerous thing.
What other book can you say that about? Mein Kampf maybe? Any book that says "This is how you should live your life, because this great powerful being says so" is dangerous when it becomes popularized, because it will get into the hands of people who take it too far. That's the problem with bowing down to higher powers, be they heavenly or earthly; people will always fight in the name of their chosen higher power against other higher powers.

Because it will be 'his' message that helps change the world...The Bible is going nowhere, man. People want to believe in Jesus. People need to believe in Jesus, and his words truly inspire. So does Ghandi, the teachings of Buddha and others of the like mind...
What's so inspiring about it? It's such a bland, nonsensical message. A few basic moral rules everybody pretty much already agrees to, a couple superstitious claims about the supernatural, and a whole bunch of vague parables whose meanings theologians can't exactly agree on. Give me Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau, someone who writes clearly with powerful arguments and impeccable logic, who can inspire you with the real world, not the imaginative superstitions of times past. Give me someone who writes a scathing social critique, crying for justice in the face of tyranny, condemning the evils of the day, instead of telling everybody to turn the other cheek and hope for better times in an afterlife that will never come.

[JunkYard]

I've read a lot of that stuff. God is great, yay for God, help us Lord, we're evil sinners, but we try to be good...yaaaaaawn... Don't tell me I haven't looked for something good in here. I keep reading and reading and it's just so boring and uninspiring. There's no plot structure, the characters are all so one-dimensional, and it repeats itself over and over again. Besides that, so much of it is really really hard to derive any actual meaning from. Even expert theologians can't figure out what this stuff is supposed to mean, because they're all interpreting it in their own way due to extremely vague wording.

If you're not finding any meaning, then maybe it's simply not for you, man. But there some of us who find it inspiring, and meaningful, and who derive a great sense of fullfilment from it. If you don't like it, don't read it. Its not the end all 'save' all answer to every life problem. It just helps some people, and for others it merely increases their "fear", bitterness, anger, etc...depends on how it is recieved..

You don't get any pleasure from it, so why read it at all?

Is there a reason?

I personaly like it, I like Jesus, I believe in a God, and it works for me, and no harm done, right?



How do you know he doesn't interfere with choice? I myself find the idea of an all-powerful all-knowing being to be logically incompatible with the idea of free will, but that's a whole nother can of worms I don't want to get into right now.

My idea of God is that he is simply the creative, and destructive force of the universe, as well as the universal consciouness. Apparently you have other views of what 'you' think God 'should' be. I'm sorry if he doesn't live up tou your expectations, man. That's a choice too, btw.


I can't help it, but my brain operates according to the rules of logic. I can't get it to accept an idea for which there is no evidence. It just won't fit in there. It's like trying to convince myself that unicorns exist. I'd have to actually see real evidence of a unicorn for my brain to accept that idea. Unicorns are things that should be very hard to miss.

Fair enough...


As far as I'm concerned, there cannot logically be a God who does not interfere with our universe somehow. Anything that does not have a measurable effect on our universe is by definition non-existent. If God doesn't interfere with our lives, doesn't change things in our universe, then it is impossible to get any information on him and he cannot be said to exist in any meaningful sense of the term.

See My idea of God above... Doesn't make it true, but it is what I personally believe. You see it differently, so what? It doesn't matter in the least as far as I'm concerned


On the other hand, if he does interfere with our lives, there should be some objective evidence for that. His influence should be demonstrable somehow, and obvious to us. We are lacking in such evidence. I don't see why a God who supposedly loves us would keep himself so hidden.

Maybe because he wants us to find him on our own, in our own time. It makes it much more satisfying, I would think.



Exactly. Isn't that enough? Why delude yourself with fictitious supernatural sky wizards? Life is beautiful; appreciate it for what it is: the magnificent product of Darwinian natural selection over billions of years, with no driven purpose in mind, a mosaic of the natural laws of our universe working in an inconceivably complex fashion. Physics, chemistry, biology and astronomy are all far more inspiring than the Bible. Give me Hawking, Dawkins or Sagan over Jesus anyday.

Why worry about what "I" believe, man? I harm no one, I don't discriminate, I don't attempt to convert, and I don't tell you you're going to burn in hell for doubting God. I believe, and that sir is my business. The why isn't important...


I didn't twist it up, I opened up my Bible and that's the kind of stuff I read in it.

I've been talking about how man created the Bible, as opposed to God. I never said "you" I said man, I'm not trying to be an ass with you, bro. I'm simply stating my views, cool?


Actually, the fire and brimstone bit has been around since the earliest Christian writings. In fact, the Apocalypse of Peter (not the Gnostic text of the same name) was removed from the Biblical canon before the Council of Nicea established the modern Bible as we know it. Why? Because it was too gruesome in its depiction of what happens to sinners in Hell (it also described the pleasures of Heaven). In the early days of Christianity it had just as much validity as the other New Testament books we know today; it just seems the early Christians didn't like it too much and decided to do away with it.

Exactly... The Church pushed that dogma...I guess the others were much like me, and rejected it flat, lol! Then again, hell could be a darkened heart where the fires of bitterness, hate, anger, and fear breed.

Think about it...



What other book can you say that about? Mein Kampf maybe? Any book that says "This is how you should live your life, because this great powerful being says so" is dangerous when it becomes popularized, because it will get into the hands of people who take it too far. That's the problem with bowing down to higher powers, be they heavenly or earthly; people will always fight in the name of their chosen higher power against other higher powers.

Thats exactly why it is important to judge by that spirit I mentioned, man. People get too worked up over religion. God is not religion...God is life and Love. The Bible can be useful, and it can be dangerous. It depends on the way it is recieved, and the heart that recieves it.

See: Matthew 13:3-9


What's so inspiring about it? It's such a bland, nonsensical message. A few basic moral rules everybody pretty much already agrees to, a couple superstitious claims about the supernatural, and a whole bunch of vague parables whose meanings theologians can't exactly agree on. Give me Carl Sagan, Bertrand Russell, Emma Goldman, Mark Twain, Ralph Waldo Emerson or Henry David Thoreau, someone who writes clearly with powerful arguments and impeccable logic, who can inspire you with the real world, not the imaginative superstitions of times past. Give me someone who writes a scathing social critique, crying for justice in the face of tyranny, condemning the evils of the day, instead of telling everybody to turn the other cheek and hope for better times in an afterlife that will never come.

So don't read it, man. If you don't like it, don't read it... It's really that simple. ;)


Learning to Love your neighbor, and enemies, and learning to love life is what salvation is about, imo. Maybe heaven and hell are simple states of mind?

I think it all happens in this life man, because death is certain to come. But these are just my opinions, bro.

Feel free to disagree....


Much Love,


:smokin:

[slipknotpsycho]

What is the number one teaching of Christianity that is the hardest for youto follow? I believe heavily in the teachings of Christ, but like every other human being in the world I "walk the line" like a drunk with a blindfold on. Atheists and agnostics please post your opinions, too; what do you think is the most demanding and spritually testing? Do you think the world would be a better place if more people followed it, or about the same?

For me, personally: Love thy enemy.

believing there is a magical 'man' watching everythign i do, and will judge me by my actions when i die... not really 'hard to follow' so much as 'hard to believe' but that's where faith starts right? believing.... so yeah, i have to chose that... i don't believe in god... honestly, if everyone followed the word of 'god' of course the world would be a better place, the guidlines given 'by him' are some very good guidlines for living life... i just don't believe there is a god that will judge me if i dont' follow them..

[Polymirize]

Oneironaut, I've come to accept that you have a hard-on for anti-religious arguments, but could you please stop pretending that you have any sort of logical superiority in your arguments?
You border on fundamentalism in your approach, and closemindedly refuse to acknowledge your belief in your own metaphysical assumptions, namely that there is no god. I think Junkyard hit the nail on the head when he asked you if you're an all or nothing kinda guy.
I think its an incredible insult to the very concept of god that you think he could be accurately contained within the pages of (as you've said) a rather badly written text. Which only goes to show that you've missed the point entirely. Human beings don't define God, god is by his nature undefinable, so all definitions are false. The fundamentalist worships false idols.
That's my interpretation. I don't pretend to speak for any religious view because I don't really have one, but I'm open to various possibilities.

As for the original post
Exodus 22:18. Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

I actually just ignore this passage entirely...

[psychocat]

The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.

[JunkYard]

The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.

The problem with the all or nothing attitude is it can lead you to very dark things. Look at our Christian history, and this is quite evident. As for telling someone what to believe and what not to believe. It's not possible; people will always believe what they choose, and no amount of effort to try to change those beliefs will make a difference. You are your own man, and you are 'free' to embrace anything you want...

But, if you truly want help knowing what choices you could make that might be of benefit, and what choices not to make when entering the realm of the Bible, I will point to something that might help. This will depend on what you value, though, so...

btw, I'll not try to change your mind. You asked, so I'm giving my answer...

1 John 4:6-8

6. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Anything that goes against Love is in the spitit of error, imo. You don't have to believe in God to Love, either. You only need to value it...


Much Love

[BLaQLiGhT]

Loving your enemies is pretty easy for me, I just don't like the things people do :p . Yes, I am a christian if you couldn't tell from my answer. I think this way because I believe as long as one is alive, we have a chance at changing our lifes and doing the right thing by accepting God and Jesus christ as the only true god and also believing that he died for all of us. The hard thing for everyone, Christian and Non-Christian, would be LUST. We lust for earthly things because we can see them and touch them, which makes it really hard to stop touching and looking at whatever we are lusting after. But God gives us a choice which makes us different from every other creation that god has made. I'm sure everyone can attest to that when they do something wrong, it was because they wanted to or they believed they had to. But it's all your choice after you reach that age knowing what is right and wrong. I know when I make the right choice, I feel good that I had the choice to do the right thing and that I did it willingly. LUST is inevitable because we were born with it because of Adam and Eve but we can try to stop and ask for forgiveness even though we will most likely fall into lust. You guys and gals know how it is :( , it's hard...

[BLaQLiGhT]

The Bible is a believe it or not kinda thing and thats the problem with the religious nuts among us, how can it be right in parts and wrong in others.
Man wrote it is a poor excuse since it is supposedly the WORD of god ?
You either believe it to be true or not.
If any God botherers want to clear up what is to be accepted and what is to be ignored then maybe people would have a clearer idea .
IMO the bible and the stories of Jesus are about as believable as the tales of Robin Hood or even Aessops Fables.

All you need to know is that God send his son to die for our sins :) . In all the many bibles there aer in the world, they all have the history of Jesus Christ and his miracles, and also his crucifixion. The bible has been translated many tmies over but this history in fact stays the same. That crucifixion was God's sacrifice to Man showing how much he loved us. He gaev us another connection with him because we lose the first one with Adam and Eve. Truly believe that Jesus died for your sins and you can then be connected with God again in spirit and have everlasting life with our creator :thumbsup: . It's all up to you, he gave you a choice which you can give your own answer and say no to. Good luck on your decision :thumbsup: . GOD BLESS THE UNIVERSE AND EVERYTHING IN IT AND ANY OTHER CREATION OF GOD !!!

[psychocat]

Since I don't believe in God it kinda goes without saying that I also do not believe in JC.
If we are all descended from Adam and Eve and they were both Gods children then weren't our forefathers all guilty of incest ?
I have my own moral code and to some I am a saint and to others a sinner, I decide for myself and I care not for those who judge me nor will I ever give an inch to my enemies.
I find the whole bible a complete work of fiction with far too many fantastic stories I see it as akin to the Lord of The Rings , a fantastic story but that's all.
I do however hold with the idea that if people do choose to believe and they find solace or whatever in their belief then good luck to them.
The edicts of do no harm unto others, honesty, trustworthyness and fairness are not foreign to me simply because I do not believe in any deity and I DO admire them in others.
I just believe in the edict Do me no harm and I will do you no harm, fuck with me and I'll fuck you up. Fair in my eyes.

[BLaQLiGhT]

Since I don't believe in God it kinda goes without saying that I also do not believe in JC.
If we are all descended from Adam and Eve and they were both Gods children then weren't our forefathers all guilty of incest ?
I have my own moral code and to some I am a saint and to others a sinner, I decide for myself and I care not for those who judge me nor will I ever give an inch to my enemies.
I find the whole bible a complete work of fiction with far too many fantastic stories I see it as akin to the Lord of The Rings , a fantastic story but that's all.
I do however hold with the idea that if people do choose to believe and they find solace or whatever in their belief then good luck to them.
The edicts of do no harm unto others, honesty, trustworthyness and fairness are not foreign to me simply because I do not believe in any deity and I DO admire them in others.
I just believe in the edict Do me no harm and I will do you no harm, fuck with me and I'll fuck you up. Fair in my eyes.

I respect your opinion as you do mine :thumbsup: .

[JunkYard]

Since I don't believe in God it kinda goes without saying that I also do not believe in JC.
If we are all descended from Adam and Eve and they were both Gods children then weren't our forefathers all guilty of incest ?
I have my own moral code and to some I am a saint and to others a sinner, I decide for myself and I care not for those who judge me nor will I ever give an inch to my enemies.
I find the whole bible a complete work of fiction with far too many fantastic stories I see it as akin to the Lord of The Rings , a fantastic story but that's all.
I do however hold with the idea that if people do choose to believe and they find solace or whatever in their belief then good luck to them.
The edicts of do no harm unto others, honesty, trustworthyness and fairness are not foreign to me simply because I do not believe in any deity and I DO admire them in others.
I just believe in the edict Do me no harm and I will do you no harm, fuck with me and I'll fuck you up. Fair in my eyes.

Everyone is different; we all value different things. You've made your choices, and they are certainly yours to make. It doesn't much matter what others think, imo. [If they judge] I think what matters is what/how a person thinks/feels about themselves.

I treat others how I would like to be treated, but if an enemy pushes too hard with violence, I will defend myself. [As we all should] I'd say one turn of the cheek is enough, wouldn't you?

Otherwise, us "religious nuts" would be in pretty bad shape. I do my best to avoid that kind of confrontation nowdays, but when it comes, I won't/don't sit on my ass and get whooped willingly. I'll at least put up a fight.

btw, I don't see myself as a "religious nut", [That is quite a label, btw] I see my self as someone who simply believes in something bigger than myself. My views come from the Bible, and I credit Jesus' testimony for what I've taken from it...



Much Love,

[psychocat]

My religious nut comment may well have been a little harsh and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I apologise if I caused anyone offence.
I like to think I am a fairly level-headed person and I was brought up with "Christian" values , even attending a faith school between the ages of 9 and 11 (St Francis School), however I find the whole thing just a tad hard to swallow, each to their own is how I think. :thumbsup:


PS
My Ten Commandments

Cause no harm to those who cause you no harm.
Treat others how you would like to be treat.
Take shit off nobody
Don't give others shit unless you're prepared to take it from them.
Do the crime, do the time . (I hate whinging cons, I have done my time)
Only kill it if you're gonna eat it. (Doesn't include humans of course :D )
Avoid smack and crack at all costs.
Never ever trust people in authority NOT to abuse their position.
Opinions are like arseholes (we all have one) and just like arseholes sometimes opinions stink, accept it.
You only get one life, live it to the max !! :thumbsup:

[JunkYard]

My religious nut comment may well have been a little harsh and it wasn't directed at anyone in particular, I apologise if I caused anyone offence.
I like to think I am a fairly level-headed person and I was brought up with "Christian" values , even attending a faith school between the ages of 9 and 11 (St Francis School), however I find the whole thing just a tad hard to swallow, each to their own is how I think. :thumbsup:


PS
My Ten Commandments

Cause no harm to those who cause you no harm.
Treat others how you would like to be treat.
Take shit off nobody
Don't give others shit unless you're prepared to take it from them.
Do the crime, do the time . (I hate whinging cons, I have done my time)
Only kill it if you're gonna eat it. (Doesn't include humans of course :D )
Avoid smack and crack at all costs.
Never ever trust people in authority NOT to abuse their position.
Opinions are like arseholes (we all have one) and just like arseholes sometimes opinions stink, accept it.
You only get one life, live it to the max !! :thumbsup:

You seem level headed, psychocat, and I Love your ten commandments, save one...I think a person should endure a little shit before acting in anger, but that's just me. ;)

btw, the 'religious nut' comment didn't offend me in the least; it was just inacurate, imo.


Much Love,

[ValkyrieAg]

One thing that was touched on above....the hardest selling point of christianity, is the DEATH, HATE, and VIOLENCE. I live my life without these things, and I feel I am a better person for it. One time, we got the baptist's daughter to strip naked at a high school party....so im not really sold about this religion thing.

[BLaQLiGhT]

Being Christian doesn't mean you don't sin, no one Is perfect. Judas, one of jesus disciples, sold jesus out but he was still a christian. He became angry with himself for what he had done and commited suicide. That sounds like a crazy man to me, but he was Christian. That suicide thing was not cool though...

[biff]

My one sentence answer:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Because God does NOT exist as the personification we give him/her.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


Remember, God (or by whatever name you call the force/energy responsible for all of creation) is beyond comprehension by our relatively small and puny intellects. In order to relate to such an incomprehensible/unimaginable energy we create personifications such as God(s), angels, ect. All these concepts, whether you realize it or not, are of one and the same.

By taking the personifications too far and personally we create human fallacies which are incompatible with logic and science.

This is what I've come to terms with over my years..........toke up....:smokin:

[bongomania]

The most difficult Christian value for me to adhere to (and I dislike the word "Christian" as it connotates "religion" and Christ himself never went to church or even required others to do so) is not judging others. I judge way too much every day, especially fat people who continue to stuff their faces.

[psychocat]

If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity. This goes hand-in-hand with the "free will" argument, and Aquinas's Summa deals with the issue of free will in demons and other beings instrumental in the life of Jesus that are nevertheless damned. This becomes a moot point in some denominations that denote Hell, not as a place of everlasting torture, but as non-existent state of the dead and the common grave of mankind.

[Skrappie]

Damn double post. 2 for 2 :(

[Skrappie]

Edit: I thought this was in the lounge, and i posted a rude comment. Sorry guys :thumbsup:

[biohazard]

turning the other cheek is the hardest thing to do in my opinion. kinda hard to forgive someone that just fucked you over, the normal reaction is to get revenge. ever since i started toking tho i feel way more chill and relaxed, and i find it easier to forgive others.

[Pass That Shit]

JunkYard,

"My guide is the Bible. My teacher is Jesus, and no, I'm not a Christian...Just a fan of the man."

You preach your opinion, not sound gospel. And you know what is said about opinions? They're not worth a hill of beans!!! Why would there be any more truth to your opinions over the opinions of an atheist?

The word of God is THE WORD OF GOD. Calling the word of God the word of man is like calling Jesus a liar. You're a false teacher. You can't say that Jesus is your teacher and then contradict yourself by saying that some of the bible is BS. You obviously don't believe that Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD.

Please tell me about the BS in the bible?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


We don't live under the law anymore. The law pointed us to Christ. Christ fulfilled the law and took it away from us. We are no longer under the yoke. The law convicted all of sin. The law was to show that righteousness would not come by good works, but rather by faith in God.

A quick lesson on what was brought up about adultery. Jesus was teaching that to enter the kingdom of God, our righteousness would have to exceed that of the law. Meaning that if a man actually kept the entire law (which no man did, except for Jesus cause he is God himself), it would still not make us right. Jesus is well aware of the lust in your heart. He was pointing out how sinful we are, but somehow all I hear from people these days is how great they are. The thoughts of our heart are evil continually. Anyone who claims to be righteous is a plain out liar. You can easily see this in a child. You don't have to teach a child to do "bad". This comes natural. You have to teach a child to do good.

According to the scriptures, there's nothing more evil than to reject and deny our LORD. We will all be judged according to his rigteousness. Our words will either justify us or condemn us. The choice is all yours. I thank God for opening up my heart to trust in him. :pimp:

[JunkYard]

JunkYard,

"My guide is the Bible. My teacher is Jesus, and no, I'm not a Christian...Just a fan of the man."

You preach your opinion, not sound gospel. And you know what is said about opinions? They're not worth a hill of beans!!! Why would there be any more truth to your opinions over the opinions of an atheist?

The word of God is THE WORD OF GOD. Calling the word of God the word of man is like calling Jesus a liar. You're a false teacher. You can't say that Jesus is your teacher and then contradict yourself by saying that some of the bible is BS. You obviously don't believe that Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD.

Please tell me about the BS in the bible?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------


We don't live under the law anymore. The law pointed us to Christ. Christ fulfilled the law and took it away from us. We are no longer under the yoke. The law convicted all of sin. The law was to show that righteousness would not come by good works, but rather by faith in God.

A quick lesson on what was brought up about adultery. Jesus was teaching that to enter the kingdom of God, our righteousness would have to exceed that of the law. Meaning that if a man actually kept the entire law (which no man did, except for Jesus cause he is God himself), it would still not make us right. Jesus is well aware of the lust in your heart. He was pointing out how sinful we are, but somehow all I hear from people these days is how great they are. The thoughts of our heart are evil continually. Anyone who claims to be righteous is a plain out liar. You can easily see this in a child. You don't have to teach a child to do "bad". This comes natural. You have to teach a child to do good.

According to the scriptures, there's nothing more evil than to reject and deny our LORD. We will all be judged according to his rigteousness. Our words will either justify us or condemn us. The choice is all yours. I thank God for opening up my heart to trust in him. :pimp:

First, I'm not a teacher; Jesus was a teacher. There's too much in life to grab hold of and enjoy then to go around preaching all the time, man. You gotta learn to live a little, and enjoy what you've been given, cause what you have can be taken in less time than it took me to write this. Think about it.

Jesus taught Love, pure and simple, and that is what I hold on too. I'm certainly NOT a saint, PTS, nor do I want to be. God made me a flawful man and that is what I'll always be. I embrace my flaws just as much as I embrace the good in me. I can learn from just about anything, which is the entire point of sin, imo. Sin is an archers term for "missing the mark".

I've heard some say that "Jesus as God is Love" but I don't know that Jesus was God anymore than you or me. You can worship the man if you want to, you can worship a book if you want to, but I'll stick with the creator, what he created and the Spirit of Love he has for what he made. This would include you PTS...and me and everyone else in this world, no matter what religion they cling to.

These are my views, and it's fine that you disagree. Your judgement of me will come back on you, though.

Call it karma...

Yup, Jesus taught us about karma, too! It's just a natural order of how things happen, man. (The law of harvest, bro) I'm gonna plant some good stuff, myself...like Love, life, nonjudgement of others, tolerance, and peace...

Feel free to keep your nose stuck in that book of yours, but I don't think I need it anymore. I'd much rather honor 'God' by enjoying my life, sticking with Love, and appreciating what he [the creator] gave me, man.

Don't be hatin on me yet, PTS...I've been quite tolerant of your views, but YOU have resorted to name calling. I can't say I appreciate it too awful much either.


Still Love ya, though...

[afghooey]

You preach your opinion, not sound gospel. And you know what is said about opinions? They're not worth a hill of beans!!! Why would there be any more truth to your opinions over the opinions of an atheist?

It's just as much your opinion that the bible is the 'word of god'; if you wish for others to respect your opinion, you might consider showing respect for theirs.

All I've seen of JunkYard's posts have been positive, promoting respect and love for others. Just because his opinions don't conform to yours doesn't mean he's a liar or that his opinions are worthless. Show a little courtesy.

[BLaQLiGhT]

If Judas is sent to Hell for his betrayal, and his betrayal was a necessary step in the humanity-saving death of Jesus Christ, then Judas is being punished for saving humanity.

I don't think judas went to hell for his betrayal, and I don't think he was punished by anyone for it either. He punished himself when he commited suicide. I believe suicide by a sane person takes that person to hell but I also think for someone to be able to commit suicide, they have to be crazy. I don't know about you guys, but I can't commit suicide :p . In my opinion, judas is in hell for hanging himself. This is the way I see it; Life is a gift from GOD no matter how bad you think it is. Killing yourself is like saying, I don't want your gift, shove it up your a$$. * Bang,* you blow your brains out. God is then not happy with your gesture, but it was your chance and you picked hell by offing yourself. I know everything on heavenly thing is goods gift (His only sons' life) but your life is more important. God is Love and Love is life. Just like marriage is suppose to be male and female fall in love, get married, make love (have sex) = baby (life). But us humans are different then any other creation of god. He gave us a choice and that is what life is about, Choices. THe choice that we as humans make is what makes the world seem Evil. Because we humans do evil things. Evil doesn't come from good whcih means god is not running the world. But he knows and sees what is happening in it. If you have a bible, in 1 John 5:19 - it reads " We know that we are children of God, and that the world is under the control of the evil one" Evil one meaning the devil. The evil thoughts come from the devil trying to manipulate our minds so that we may turn away from GOD and commits sins. But remember, the sins that we commit are our choices after knowing what is right (GOD) and wrong (Devil). You choose...

I love all you guys/gals :D, no matter what. Just don't hurt me...

[JunkYard]

Did someone just take up fo me? afghooey, much appreciated. :)

PTS is right, though. Opinions are like ........, but they 'are' worth something, even the intolerant, and closed minded ones. I think something can be learned from anything...from a 3 year old who seems to knows very little to the 90 year old wise man with an enormous amount of life experience. I think we all a have a little bit of the 'big guy' in us wether we acknowledge it or not, and at every age.


Love,


:smokin:

[psychocat]

It's just as much your opinion that the bible is the 'word of god'; if you wish for others to respect your opinion, you might consider showing respect for theirs.

All I've seen of JunkYard's posts have been positive, promoting respect and love for others. Just because his opinions don't conform to yours doesn't mean he's a liar or that his opinions are worthless. Show a little courtesy.

I have to agree with you on this one, name calling is kinda playground.

I for one believe that the Bible which was written by the prophets (men) and translated into English by men is not always right.
The phrase "Lost in translation" comes to mind , as I speak a couple of languages I do understand the difficulty in translating certain sayings and phrases from English to Dutch or visa versa and they are both Germanic languages .
Imagine what could have been misinterpreted when translating DEAD languages and you have a minefield full of uncertainties and it is very possible that whole passages could be filled with errors.

[Pass That Shit]

JY,

"You preach your opinion, not sound gospel. And you know what is said about opinions? They're not worth a hill of beans!!! Why would there be any more truth to your opinions over the opinions of an atheist?

The word of God is THE WORD OF GOD. Calling the word of God the word of man is like calling Jesus a liar. You're a false teacher. You can't say that Jesus is your teacher and then contradict yourself by saying that some of the bible is BS. You obviously don't believe that Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD.

Please tell me about the BS in the bible?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did I call you any names? Was I disrespectful? I understand that truth hurts. I stick by what I say. If you say that some of the bible is BS, then according to his word, you're calling Jesus a liar. I know that he's not a liar. I could care less personally about what you believe in, but I judge according to the Spirit. If you don't like my judgments, which come from the word of God, then I'm sure you don't like God either. Keep in mind, that's it's his word that you have a problem with, not me. Why is ok for you to say that the bible is BS but I can't say that what you're preaching is BS?


Please tell me about the BS in the bible?

[afghooey]

It's really the tone of your posts that comes off as disrespectful, PTS. You seem to have the attitude that all other opinions are wrong and yours are unequivocally right. No matter how many times you call everyone else a liar and claim to be right, you're still stating an OPINION. The bible wasn't written by god. It was written by men. Whether god inspired the men to write it is debatable, and if you chose to believe that he did, that's a matter of FAITH, not of FACT.

Besides, where in the scriptures does Jesus say to follow everything in the bible? Hell, his word contradicts some parts of the old testament. Turn the other cheek, or eye for an eye? In the old testament, God openly condones stoning on several occasions. Yet, Jesus says 'Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." They're both in the same book, but they're complete contradictions. And there are many, many other contradictions in the bible. It doesn't take much searching to find, literally, lists of them. Not everything is meant to be taken literally, not everything is black and white.

[JunkYard]

JY,

"You preach your opinion, not sound gospel. And you know what is said about opinions? They're not worth a hill of beans!!! Why would there be any more truth to your opinions over the opinions of an atheist?

The word of God is THE WORD OF GOD. Calling the word of God the word of man is like calling Jesus a liar. You're a false teacher. You can't say that Jesus is your teacher and then contradict yourself by saying that some of the bible is BS. You obviously don't believe that Jesus is THE WORD OF GOD.

Please tell me about the BS in the bible?"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Did I call you any names? Was I disrespectful? I understand that truth hurts. I stick by what I say. If you say that some of the bible is BS, then according to his word, you're calling Jesus a liar. I know that he's not a liar. I could care less personally about what you believe in, but I judge according to the Spirit. If you don't like my judgments, which come from the word of God, then I'm sure you don't like God either. Keep in mind, that's it's his word that you have a problem with, not me. Why is ok for you to say that the bible is BS but I can't say that what you're preaching is BS?


Please tell me about the BS in the bible?

o.k...are you saying the "Bible" is the word of God or "Jesus"? You called me a 'false teacher' because I say the Bible has errors, or is it because I don't view and worship Jesus as GOD? Which is it PTS cause I'm getting confused here? Like I said, keep your nose stuck in that book, and worship 'IT' if you feel you must.

I choose to worship/honor in a different way. The fist commandent says to serve God and God alone, but you seem to have found a man speaking for God, and decided to worship HIM as God instead, along with an incomlpete book that man/church/religious traditions has had their way with. Tell me you 'honestly' trust every single word in that book is innerant and complete.

Also, if you're judging by spirit, by which spirit am I going against God? What do you have against Love, respect, and honoring God through the commandments Jesus gave us? That's what I'm doing PTS, but I must admit that you are grinding on my nerves with the false teacher BS...take a look at what you're preaching, bro, and tell me if there is any Love in it at all...

I'm a forgiving person, and I understand that what you believe is very dear to you, man. So is what I believe, and how and 'who' I choose to serve. I've said nothing against Jesus, but I have questioned the Bible and the practices in it deemed nescessary by God. I doubt God would have his children stoned and killed for minor infractions like adultery. No, I say mankind simply got jealous, and used God as an excuse to kill and to satisfy their anger when they bashed the side of a womans skull in with a fucking rock...

Judge the Spirit, PTS. The Bible can lead a person down a road paved with intolerance, anger, and violence. It's big fuckin road too, and there are many
that go therein...

Choose Love, it's the only thing worth setting your heart on, imo. If you're looking for a fight with me, I'll oblige you with one, but I don't want to, man. I'd much rather Love you like any other, but I don't know that I'll 'keep' turning my cheek just to satisfy your need to bully us non-Christian folk with your threats of Hell, end time scenerios, or your false teacher [name calling] accusations.

Choose Love man; it's a higher path...


:cool:

[JunkYard]

2 Peter 2

1. But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus spoke of Love, he spoke not of his own will but Gods. I have not in any single post denied the fact that Jesus showed me Love, and that it saved me from the darkness within myself. I am a fan of the man Jesus, but He's not my God, he was the light that saved me, but God is my God.

What truth have I spoken against PTS? Do you think you know the mind of God, and that you are capable of conveying that knowledge to the world? No, you know what the Bible says, and the Bible is not the word of God, as the word was in the beginning with God, and was God. The Bible is not God, this might clue you in on who God is...

1 John 4:7-8

7. Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

This is all I need to understand about that, as I see no error in Love. I simply choose this as opposed to setting my heart on the anger, and intollerance, and violence in the Bible. I judge bt fuits, and the fruits of Agape are always pure...

I appologize if I came off rude in my previos post, PTS. I am a flawed man, and I too get upset. I will sleep well tonight, though...


Love,

[BLaQLiGhT]

[i]This is all I need to understand about that, as I see no error in Love. I simply choose this as opposed to setting my heart on the anger, and intollerance, and violence in the Bible. I judge bt fuits, and the fruits of Agape are always pure...

-Life is about choosing the right things :thumbsup: .

Me myself, know that the bible can have stories that got losted in translation. I'm not saying read and believe everything the bible says when I write a post. I just want people to know that GOD loves you and and he is the only GOD. I believe knowing the true love of GOD will change the the way you/people think. I grew up going to church and I really can't remember not know GOD. I don't even want to think how it woul feel not to know the loev of GOD and living a life with no meaning :( ...

[Immolation]

I don't know how anyone can believe christianity knowing that paganism predates it.There was already a flood story 1k yrs before the Noah story.

[psychocat]

Each to their own man :thumbsup: can't fault a guy (or gal) that wants to live a peaceful life . Not causing harm to others is a good thing.

However I am an atheist who doesn't subscribe to any particular doctrine , I'm either right or wrong :p I guess I'll know soon enough.

Till then I will continue to question everything but also try to take all sides on board in the spirit of a scientific experiment where all possibilities must be explored.

I was brought up as a protestant Christian and attended sunday school for a few years before deciding I am my only judge and it's me I have to live with if I do anything real bad (which I have done).

I make my choices and live with the consequences and don't see the point in bitching if I get caught red handed, I look for forgiveness from none and I keep my friends close and my enemies closer still :D :cool: ;)

[Pass That Shit]

"It's really the tone of your posts that comes off as disrespectful, PTS. You seem to have the attitude that all other opinions are wrong and yours are unequivocally right. No matter how many times you call everyone else a liar and claim to be right, you're still stating an OPINION."

I would agree with you if we we're not talking about the word of God. You see, the things I'm pointing out are sound words so it's not my opinion. These pure words have been left here for us. I just repeat them. I don't make them up, so actually it's not an opinion of mine. God claims to be true in his word and I believe it. I'm sorry, there's no way around it. If you say that the bible is not true, you're calling Jesus a liar and you will have to deal with that. I've never told anyone that they're going to hell. It's you guys that carry this conviction around. The Lord knows those that are his. It's not for me to determine who is "saved" or not. If someone doesn't believe at this moment, doesn't mean they won't have a change of heart. I judge what you preach, if you go against his word. Seriously, I'm not angry with any of you. On the other hand, I'm not afraid to point out the error of your words. I know that if I defend the word, I'll always be on top cause it's his WORD not mine. If we we're having an earthly conversation, I wouldn't be as confident cause of the possibility that I may be wrong. However, this does not apply with the word of God cause his word is true. It's not about who is right or wrong. You can't disprove the word of God. If you could disprove the word of God, he would be a liar. And I know that God DOES NOT LIE. I will take his word over yours every time.

JY,
I'm not gonna go back and forth with you. I was just pointing out that you sound all nice about this love stuff, but you fail to see the source of love. To each his own man. It's obvious that your angry cause I'm pointing out your false words. Yes, your words are false. If you say that the word of God is BS, you are lying. I'm not angry when I say this, just pointing a fact that will come to the light.

I don't want to bore you guys with scripture, but I can back up any of my points with his word if you need.

[JunkYard]

PTS, we could go back and forth for months over this, bro. Do you really want too, though? I say the source of Love is God; what say you? My words are not false, they are quite valid, and backed up biblicaly.

Why do you call me false? I don't worship Jesus...I worship God. Jesus never asked to be worshiped, or served. He only asked that we follow him, and what did he do? He spoke of Love, and of God's will...he served God just as we are to do. I don't worship the Bible, either, but admit that it can be useful for instruction, and correction. I believe that it's inspired, just as I believe there are errors in it.

I was a little upset last night, but I got over it quickly, and now your accusations seem laughable. Still, you haven't answered what you think the word of God is, nor have you explained, or posted anything biblical suggesting that the entire Bible is inerrant. You won't either, PTS. Why? Because it's not in there my friend, and you cannot back it up, so I am officially calling your bluff, and raising you a "prove it". [Biblicaly of course]

Here, I'll start you off:

John 1

1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. The same was in the beginning with God.
3. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


You can take it from here...


Love,

[Pass That Shit]

The reason I didn't back it up with scripture is because you claimed that some of it is BS. How do I know which you choose to believe and which you choose not to believe? But since you asked for it, here it is. I don't even have to leave the chapter you started with.


[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[16] I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
[17] And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
[18] For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
[19] And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
[20] He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
I may or may not return to this thread, but keep in mind that it's not me you're disagreeing with. Trust no man, just follow his word. My judgment of you doesn't matter cause it's him you will have to answer to. Take care :thumbsup:

[JunkYard]

The reason I didn't back it up with scripture is because you claimed that some of it is BS. How do I know which you choose to believe and which you choose not to believe? But since you asked for it, here it is. I don't even have to leave the chapter you started with.



[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
[2] The same was in the beginning with God.
[3] All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[10] He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
[11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
[15] John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.


Yup, I knew exactly what you would post, and I almost did it for you. I know John pretty well, and would agree with everything he says. Only, "word", or Logos as it is written in Greek can be translated into "mind of God", or "essence". As a matter of fact, this translation has been recorded as being the first ever used. If God is the source of Love then his essence must also be Love, only Jesus contained his full essence, which is evident in his testimony. Jesus never claimed to be God, but rather the son of God born of God's Spirit [essence] Also, he never demanded worship, or said it nescessary to view him as God to save, either. I think it's a little high minded of you to say that only those who worship Jesus as God will be saved. Not to mention unbiblical...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



B]All scripture[/B] is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
[4] And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

I agree with this also, but "bread" represents flesh to me, and "word" simply means by Gods Essence according to first recorded use of Logos, which is Love. [According to 1 John] Jesus was quite clear about Love, PTS, so was John. But, you have your own views/opinions and I suppose they are as valid as any other.

Btw, the Bible wasn't even put together back then. They only had random scriptures that they could read. Even so, never does any scripture EVER suggest that it is innerant, it only suggests that it is inspired. The Bible is not the word of God, sorry. Too many put more faith in a book then they do God, and I find it sad, and unnescessary.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------



[56] Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
[57] Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
[58] Jesus said unto them, Verily,verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.


Right here, for those of you watching this post, PTS is suggesting that Jesus is God in the flesh, as oppossed to being his son born of God's Spirit. Christ or "Cristos" simply means annointed one, and I have not disputed this claim. Jesus' "divinity" came from God's Spirit, but Jesus was not God himself, imo. To much in the Bible refutes this claim, and this view didn't even come to be until the 1800's. No doubt because of this "I Am" remark...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you're wondering why I deleted your Revelation section, it's because I choose to take absolutely NOTHING from it, nor add to it... :cool:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------


I may or may not return to this thread, but keep in mind that it's not me you're disagreeing with. Trust no man, just follow his word. My judgment of you doesn't matter cause it's him you will have to answer to. Take care :thumbsup:

Exactly, PTS...trust no man! Follow his word which is the essence of God, and exactly what Jesus did. Did he teach with scripture? Yes, but only the commandents, and showed us a higher road than eye for an eye.

In your previous post you said Love is "nice" and stuff. Well, yes it is, but it is also a "light" in the darkness, and the darkness doesn't see it. Jesus manifested that light in his life, and he died because mankind was not ready to succumb to it, or hear it. Yet, his Spirit [given by God] lives on and some do find it.

On a side note: If God is Love like 1 John says, and you believe Jesus was God, then wouldn't it be logical to view Jesus as Love as well? That's the way I view him, man...



Love,

[JunkYard]

PTS, I was wrong about when the Trinity concept came to be accepted, so if you reply to my previous post, no need to adress that. Apparently it has been used since the 4th century. I was wrong, so...

Also, If we can't agree on Jesus being Gog or not, we could at least agree that the essence of the Logos [Christ] is the same as the Theos [God], yes?


Love,

[Pass That Shit]

JY,

You claim that jesus is the Son of God. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you know the difference between the son of man and the Son of God? Is Jesus not both? Didn't the son of man die on the cross? The Son of God can't die. The The Son of God doesn't have beginning of days or end of life. He has no decent. No father or mother. He is eternal. He created all things. He made the world. He was before all things. God made man in his image. Jesus is the image of the invisible God. He is the express image of his person. You are the image of your person. Don't you have a body, soul and spirit? Are you three people? God is ONE. God is LORD. Jesus is LORD. Doesn't God have a face? Don't you have a face? He made you like him. Moses saw God face to face and he lived. Jesus said that Moses wrote of him. Find me a writing of Jesus in the books of Moses? The law and the prophets (old testament) testify of him. He fulfilled their writings. God was manifest in the flesh. He always was, is and will be. Only God is to be worshipped. Only the Father recieves worship. You don't bow your knees unto two different people. Even angels which are higher beings reject to be worshipped. Why didn't Jesus correct anyone that worshipped him? Why did he accept worship? Didn't jesus say that if you have seen him you have seen the Father? He is claiming to be the image of God. Jesus says that where two are three are gathered together in his name that he is in the midst of them. How is that possible without being there in the flesh? Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Don't you have a spirit inside your body? So does Jesus. Jesus is the word of God and he claims that the old testament was written about him. The words of Jesus are the words of God. Jesus is the mouth of God. How did the word become flesh? They knew it would be God himself that would come to save them. He shall save his people. They called his name Emannuel, which means God with us. The scribes and the pharisees did not believe it was Jesus. God is a man. The ten commandments were written with the finger of God. Don't you have a finger? There is ONE SAVIOR in the OLD TESTAMENT. Jesus is revealed as Lord and Savior in the new testament. So according to you there are two saviours? Jesus is Lord. Are there two Lords? If one is not the other are they not two? Who believes in the trinity, me or you? The word trinity doesn't even exist in the bible. The Father the Son and the Holy Spirit are ONE. Your body soul and spirit makes you ONE. You are not a trinity. Neither is he. A cell is also made of three parts but it's still ONE cell.

[BLaQLiGhT]

You claim that jesus is the Son of God. Do you believe that Jesus is the Son of God? Do you know the difference between the son of man and the Son of God? Is Jesus not both? Didn't the son of man die on the cross? The Son of God can't die.

Yup, this is right. The son of man was dying. Thats why he yelled out " My GOD, My GOD, why have you forsaken me? " then soon the spirit left him.

[JunkYard]

PTS, I'm not arguing against 'your' belief system; I'm defending mine. You view Jesus as God, and I do not. This is an age old division among Christians, and some people can get extremely angry about it. Why not focus on what we have in common?

I think God is Love, I think Jesus is Love, and I think the holy Spirit is Love, I just honor the source, and I'm thantkful for the other. Surly there is more to God than just Love, like his creation for one. God is a creator, and I assume what he creates he can destroy. To me, his essence is Love, though. Jesus showed us this, and I believe him. Why wouldn't I? Love makes sense to me, and if am to love others, than surely I'm to love creation as well, yes?

I do anyway; I think we live on the most beautiful place in existence...I call it Eden, lol!

Wether Jesus is God is a moot point, imo. I think the Spirit in which he lived is what should be focused on, and not just the flesh. I would also dare say that anyone who knows/understands the purities of Love, knows God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit...even w/o knowledge of the flesh man.

Does Jesus save? Yes, but what are we being saved from, and by what Spirit? Lets not argue, and lests not try to convince each other wrong, man. I'd much rather agree to agree on some points, and disagree on others. That is what makes life so great...the fact that people vary in opinion and belief.

It's all good, imo.


Love,

[braddog10]

My guess would be a few things...I have a small list of common Christian strongholds.

1) Getting over intolerance --> Not a Christian value
2) Getting rid of fear --> Not a true Christian value
3) Loving ourselves --> Is this even in the Bible?
4) Loving others --> easier than loving self
5) Loving our enemies --> #1 Hardest Christian teaching to follow, imo
6) Forgiving others and self --> Can be really hard
7) Having faith in what God made us --> Almost non-existant among Christian Faiths

I think these are all important things when dealing with life as we know it, and something most of us have problem with. Including non-Christians, imo.

We're all basicly the same as far as I can see. We just believe, and value different things...

My morning bake got me --> :stoned: <-- I feel very good right now

Junkyard you are remarkable. Refreshingly honest.
Thank you

[JunkYard]

Junkyard you are remarkable. Refreshingly honest.
Thank you

Thank you, braddog...

I value honesty nowdays, too. It's amazing how a person can change once they understand/value the Love God has for us.

What denomination are you? I have adopted no strict labels, myself. I guess you could call me a liberal, or a "progressive" Christian, though.


Much Love,

[braddog10]

I grew up in a Baptist Church which historically was very sin oriented. All of us kids departed from that as soon as we could get out of the house. There are too many spiritual pathogens related to that kind of focus. Jesus said "wash the inside of the cup, the outside will become clean". I started going to interdenominational churches that understood the true focus of Christianity, to present God's heart as He is displayed in the new testament by Christ.

It took me years to get beyond the hard programing from my early experience, just as it was also hard for national Israel to understand that God was moving beyond the previous dispensation (old testament)to a new one with His son through whom we (Christians) now have freedom to receive forgiveness and love and to then to pass it on as we have received. The Law of the Old testament kind of kills us and bring us to the end of ourselves which then prepares us to receive Forgiveness.

It's very interesting that you would ask this. It's very ironic. This brings me now to the hardest thing in my walk as a Christian that I "HAD" to do.
I had the hardest time receiving the forgiveness of God. It was so hard for me. I wanted I guess to clean myself up and then to present myself to Him clean. It was primarily cigs. I would look up and holding a cigarette up in the air would say "I'll beat this"! It's like He would Laugh and say "no You Won't"!!
Man, It beat the shit out of me for years. Finally one day sitting on my back porch I said "God I guess I just need your forgiveness for this. His word that settled in my heart was "It's about time". It took me years to yield to His Love and Forgiveness, Yeeeeears.

If I would have beaten It myself then I would have been prone to self righteousness which is faaaar worse than my smoking habit.

This is why Jesus referred to the "Religious Right" as self righteous, with references to religious pride. They were under the delusion that they were sinless. That they had cleaned themselves up.

I am so glad that God loved me enough to not let me settle for this.
His word states "God resists the Proud but gives grace to the humble".
To find myself in a position of being resisted by God would be a real shitty state.

I love Him for this. He is so much sweeter than I had ever thought.
The Christian Yoke is actually lighter. To believe otherwise is to still be under the weight of religion. I explained religion under a previous thread. I don't know exactly where.

Have a great Holiday my friend.

[JunkYard]

Have a great Holiday, braddog. :)

[BLaQLiGhT]

..... It's amazing how a person can change once they understand/value the Love God has for us.

What denomination are you? I have adopted no strict labels, myself. I guess you could call me a liberal, or a "progressive" Christian, though.

Much Love,

This is what keeps me so happy everyday (the bold above). I grew up and I'm currently in a Baptist Church. I'm only 20yrs old, so I don't remember anytime of my life without gods love :D . I believe with all my heart, if someone/anyone understands and feels the love god has for us, they will change for the better. Everyday I wake up, I feel his love just looking down over me. I know life is not perfect, we all go threw things in life that hurts in many ways, But I'm ok with it because I have no control over these things. I value the love of god so much, I don't know what/where I would be if he wasn't a part of me and my life. Have a very Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays, Happy New Year & a happy love filled life gays/gals. My GOD bless you all :D ...