Hydro question concerning SCROG and SOG methods

[The Fonz]

I am growing in a grow cab that's approx 6ft x 4ft x 4ft. I would like to start growing Hydro and would appretiate and reccomendations as to which system would work best...ebb & flo, aeroponic, NFT, etc.

Also, which hydro system works best for a SOG method and which system for a SCROG method?

Thanks in advance

[MegaOctane12]

NFT Systems



The drawback of this system is that as the roots are constantly submerged in a film of water, this prohibits the aeration to the rootball, which in turn prohibits outrageous performance. To get over this problem, some NFT growers put the pumps on cycles, effectively flood and draining their NFT system. Other growers put air stones in the water reservoir and even under their plants on the NFT tables. Most NFT growers administer H202 to their tanks but at a very diluted ratio, however, this really needs to be done on a daily basis as diluted H2O2 breaks down very rapidly and over the course of 24 hours has completely dissolved its active ingredients. In using H2O2 in a daily capacity, this prohibits the use of organic growth promoters and other products that reduce the possibility of bacterial break out like pythium.



The main disadvantage with NFT systems, especially in a grow room environment is the fact that pump failure is likely to strike at some point. The reason this tends to happen is that NFT systems are packaged with small flow rate pumps; cheap springs to mind but this is not technically fair. The plants only need a small delivery of water at a constant rate and the small pumps are all that can be used on a small NFT system. Now as the pump is perpetually on, the pump sees a lot of action over the course of its life.


This coupled with the fact that you are then adding dissolved salts in the tank and in turn you are possibly in a hard water area, you get precipitation of the salts and the calcium that build up on and around the impeller of the pump. Once this impeller begins to attract precipitation, it is not long until it either gives up spinning completely or that it does not deliver enough water to satisfy the plantsâ?? needs, resulting in crop failure. Pump failure can be overcome through regular cleaning and maintenance of the pump or indeed regular replacements of the pumps. As mentioned earlier, these are very inexpensive pumps and therefore can be regularly replaced without financial worry.


Another downside with this technique is due to the fact that the roots are constantly submerged in water, so the plants are very prone to bacterial disease like pythium. Again, this can be overcome via regular dumping of the nutrient reservoir and adding products to the nutrient solution that have active ingredients that minimise the threat of root rot and moulds.


The last drawback is that heavy yielding plants tend to fall over in a NFT system. This is due to the fact that the roots grow out flat and long giving the plants no stability. As they grow older and bigger you will need to support the fruits or flowers otherwise they simply topple over. Supporting them is easy using yo-yos, string, canes or some growers use a scrog. This is simply netting stretched out over the growing area. The plants then grow up through this netting which in turn helps support the plants.


All of the above to one side, these systems are very productive and are an excellent inexpensive teaching aid to the principle of hydroponics.


Drop Irrigation Systems




The Dutch who grow everything using this system, have mastered this technique. Nor do they just grow everything, they grow on an unprecedented scale compared to any other nation. The plants are propagated in a rockwool cube then grown on in a rockwool slab. The plants are individually fed using drippers. These drip emitters are designed to deliver at a set rate at a pre-set volume of water per hour.


Each dripper is wired to an infrastructure of tubes and delivery pipes, which are fed by one master pump. Most commercial systems are what are known as high-pressure drip systems and most domestic systems are known as a low-pressure drip system. These commercial high pressure drip systems are typically run to waste systems. This is when the nutrient is bled off and after dripping through the rockwool slab then simply allowed to run down the drain i.e. to waste. This ensures these plants get the exact maximum nutritional value from the nutrient solution and also cuts back on the possibility of bacteria or fungal problems like pythium. Most low-pressure drip systems are recycling or re-circulating systems where the nutrient returns to the tank then gets pumped back to the plants, then to the tank, so on and so forth.


These systems are relatively cheap compared to others and easily built once you get your head round the spaghetti of pipes, tubes and fittings. Drip systems are also very versatile and can be made in many shapes and formats allowing you a more modular design for your grow rooms.


The running costs of these systems are not cheap as after each crop you basically dispose of the rockwool slab and replace it with a new one. A 1 metre slab normally holds approximately 3 plants which can run up quite a bill if you have many plants. Also if you are running to waste then the cost of nutrient is very expensive indeed.


The main draw back with these systems is that the dripper can clog. Similar to the NFT system, if a dripper stops your plants will suffer. If you fail to notice that a dripper has stopped, the plants run the risk of dying or at least losing their potential to give good yields. These systems need constant maintenance and upkeep and are not recommended for the beginner. All drip irrigation systems are a little tricky to maintain, as you need to take constant pH and CF readings from your tank, from you run off and from your rockwool medium. This process is achieved by using a syringe to suck up a sample from inside the rockwool where the plants are growing. As the medium itself will hold a different pH and CF value to the tank and indeed even the run off. Then armed with this info you need to re adjust the system again and do all those tests once more until you are happy that you have the right levels that you require. This process can easily need doing once a day. It is also advisable when growing in rockwool slab culture to flush the salt out every 2 weeks with pH adjusted plain water. This needs to be done as rockwool tends to absorb unused salts which can build up, therefore need flushing every 2 weeks or so. It is also advisable to do this flushing out process to flush out any salt build-up that can concentrate in the drippers. Regular flushing can alleviate some of the maintenance problems of these systems. However, getting blocked drippers is part and parcel of this system so it is always advisable to clean them regularly and also to have ample spare drippers to swap when old drippers need cleaning.


The above to one side, this is a very productive hydroponics technique and has served the Dutch very well. The rockwool slab does offer a lot more support that you would achieve if you were using NFT systems. It is also less prone to pump failure and as the slabs absorb a lot of water you do have some breathing space if the pump or drippers fail. It is very detachable and modular allowing easy expansion or removal of the system. Low pressure drip systems are more prone to dripper failure compared to high pressure drip systems, however, for Percy Throwers, the high pressure option is too expensive and industrial for a small indoor garden. Overall high levels of maintenance are required for both types of drip systems. The pipe work and drip lines also need regular replacement to combat clogging and salt build-up.


Another entirely different drip irrigation system is that which uses Ventura Action to deliver the dripping effect. These are individual grow tubs or pots specially designed for the smaller gardener. The system consists of a large outer pot which acts as a smaller water tank. Inside this large pot is a shorter inner pot which holds the grow medium which is typically clay pebbles. This smaller pot sits inside the bigger pot but does not actually hit the water level of the bigger pot, which is the holder of the nutrient solution. In English, it is a pot within a pot; the smaller inner pot is where the plants grow, the bigger outer pot acts as the tank. A Ventura pipe is then placed through the upper grow pot and submerged under the water level of the outer pot. Air is pumped down the Ventura pipe which causes the water to be pushed up above the level of the top of the grow pot. This is then piped into a delivery tube with large holes punched into it. The tube runs completely round completing a circle joining back up to the Ventura pipe. Water pressurised via the air pump is then delivered through this drip ring which slowly but perpetually drips onto the clay pebble medium. The nutrient solutions then drips entirely through the clay pebbles back to the outer tank, which in turn is then pumped back via the Ventura pipe to the top and delivered to the clay pebbles. If you like, it is a cross between a NFT system and a drip irrigation system but uses clay pebbles as the medium for the plants to grow into. Due to the fact that an air pump is used to deliver the water through the Ventura pipe, the nutrient solution delivered is highly aerated. Also, the constant dripping effect pulls air down through the clay pebbles medium.

This system is typically only used for 1 to 3 plants or mothers. The reason for this is that to grow more would require more pots. Each has its own individual tank. This tank due to the small nature in size needs regular upkeep. To maintain lots of plants, you would need to maintain lots of tanks. This would be a too big a time consuming enterprise to undertake. Also, to adjust the inner tank you have to lift out the smaller inner pot which the plants are growing in. This again can be a costly exercise and it is very easy to damage the plants when lifting out and placing back this smaller inner pot. In recent years, a controller has been invented so you can link multiple individual systems together. But as the individual pots still have individual tanks passively connected to the controller, the controller fails to do its job in terms of pH and CF management, i.e. you get different pH and CF levels in the different individual pots, but also in the controller as well, making it very hard to maintain precise control of your lovely crops. Also, due to the small size of the outer tank, the system will need daily maintenance to keep the tank topped up and the pH and CF at the right level.

Algae is also very prone to develop in this system as the medium is fed from the top down ensuring that the top of the medium is continually wet. The constantly wet medium being exposed to long periods of light will always result in algae breakouts. As each system is packaged with its own individual air pump, the pumps after prolonged use can stop having the same problems but not as frequently as the NFT system resulting in a failed crop. On this note, the drip ring can also become blocked up with salt build-up and calcium deposits so this too needs regular cleaning.

All of the above to one side, this is an ideal first system and is an inexpensive valuable teaching aid to the hydroponicist. The system provides good aeration to the rootball and excellent support to your bigger yielding plants. It is good for mothers but it is necessary to be very careful when removing the inner pots to top up and adjust the CF and pH of the outer tank.


Flood And Drain aka Ebb And Flow Pod System



This is a very simple but very effective technique. It is basically a hybridisation of all the above techniques put together. The principle, as per the description of the title, is simple, however, very effective. These systems normally use clay pebbles as the substrate, as this medium provides very good drainage and good retention of water, which over a period of time will dry out. A flood and drain system typically works by using a timer and submersible pump. The timer controls the flood via the submersible pump. The timer controls the flood and drain cycle of the system. Most flood and drain systems work via a bottom flood, which over a period of preset time floods two thirds to three quarters of the growing medium. Then, once the flood cycle reaches the desired height, the pump stops and gravity then pulls the water back to the reservoir. Then, depending on the size and depth of the system, some time later the cycle is repeated.


Conventional flood and drain systems are normally quite shallow i.e. approximately 5-10cm deep. More recent designs are sometimes 50cm deep or more.


The great benefit in a deep flood and drain system over its shallow counterparts is that the greater the volume of water used to flood and drain a system, the greater push and pull of air over the root zone will be, i.e. the water acts like a piston in a cylinder of an engine. Each time the system floods, the old air in and around the roots is pushed out from the medium then when the flood completes and the drain cycle occurs, the water then sucks down as it returns to the reservoir, pulling fresh air in to the rootball maximising aeration around the roots. And because it needs a longer period of time to dry out before another flood is initiated, this drying out process also creates very good aeration to the roots. Then the whole process is repeated. Aeration to the rootball is possibly the biggest factor for healthy, happy, heavy yielding plants and this system gives you it by the bucket load.


Again, another big advantage of the deep flood and drain system over its shallow counterparts is that because the system uses a greater volume of water to operate it, it also needs a greater size reservoir to maintain it. Now, the bigger the reservoir, the more buffered and stable the pH and CF of the system will be, resulting in less maintenance. Also, the greater the size of the reservoir, the less times you have to visit it to top it up again resulting in less maintenance and more freedom.


Flood and drain systems are easy to install and are very user-friendly. The secret to their success is their simplicity. Ideal for the beginner or the professional. Provides an excellent foundation for expansion. The only drawback and yes there is one, is that as with any hydroponics technique that employs clay pebbles as its medium, the clay pebbles do need to be washed thoroughly before use and between crops. Apart from that, this technique is a real winner.


Aerophonics Systems



The principle of true aeroponics works by creating a fine mist of nutrients sprayed inside a tube or container in which the roots of the plants are suspended. So, in effect the roots are fundamentally hanging in air supported by the bare minimum or medium, i.e. a net pot with either clay pebbles or rockwool. The roots are then constantly sprayed with a fine mist via a very powerful pump. In principle, this is the definitive technique as the mist itself absorbs very high levels of oxygen plus the roots are hanging in air, resulting in the absolute maximum aeration to the root zone. However, in practice the majority or aeroponics techniques fail and fail miserably. The reasons for this are that the basic principle of making mists which have dissolved salts (nutrients) in it is flawed. Salts precipitate; this cannot be avoided, so over a short period of time salts build up on the misters restricting the flow of mist to the roots. If left unchecked, then total blockage occurs. Again this effect is amplified if you are situated in a hard water area. The calcification of the water accelerates the blocking of these misters. The end product is total break down or constant daily management of the system, sometimes even hourly!

[The Fonz]

Thanks a lot for the information. I think I may start with an ebb and flow using 3 plants the SCROG method. I like the drip irrigation system but feel that I should start with the basics and master that first.

[Bachelorpads]

DWC with a scrog screen over the top.

With the limited height SCROG will be by far the best method. If the cab is 6ft high then you could do 4 plants scrogged, each 2x2. Would produce a decent amount depending on a few things obviously.

[The Fonz]

Is this a good example of a DWC system?

http://homegrown-hydroponics.com/dwcaebuhysy.html