The muslim teaching assistant in the UK - shocking poll results!

[Tom Swierzbinski]

For those who arent in the know, heres the story -

A Muslim teaching assistant's refusal to remove her veil was threatening to spark a full-blown row over religious relations as exchanges became increasingly bitter.
A series of controversial interventions from politicians in both main parties drew angry responses from Muslim community leaders, with neither side prepared to back down.
The Government's race minister demanded 24-year-old Aishah Azmi be sacked, accusing her of "denying the right of children to a full education".
Phil Woolas said Ms Azmi's stand meant she could not "do her job'' at Headfield Church of England junior school in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, and insisted barring men from working with her would amount to "sexual discrimination".

But the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) quickly condemned Mr Woolas for his "outrageous" and "reckless" foray into a "matter that should be decided by the school - and if necessary by the courts".
The Department for Communities and Local Government signalled it would not be withdrawing by responding: "It's far better to debate the issues than sweep them under the carpet when the question of children's education is at stake."
Shadow Home Secretary David Davis launched a stinging attack on Muslim leaders for risking "voluntary apartheid" in Britain, and expecting special protection from criticism.
In an article for the Sunday Telegraph, Mr Davis warned of "closed societies" being created in the UK, and said religious divides threatened to "corrode" fundamental values such as freedom of speech.
In an apparent hardening of the Conservatives' attitude to radical Islam, Mr Davis also supported Jack Straw's practice of asking female Muslim constituents to lift their veils during private discussions.
The Leader of the Commons was accused of "selectively discriminating" on the basis of religion when his comments emerged 10 days ago, and the row over integration has been gathering pace ever since. But Mr Davis wrote: "What Jack touched on was the fundamental ssue of whether, in Britain, we are developing a divided society. Whether we are creating a series of closed societies within our open society. Whether we are inadvertently encouraging a kind of voluntary apartheid."

Labour's Lord Ahmed, the first Muslim peer, delivered a furious broadside against politicians and the media for "demonising" the community.
He told BBC Radio 4's Sunday programme: "Let's be honest, there are people in our community who call themselves Muslims who have been threatening our national security. It is very unfortunate. But the problem is that the politicians and some people in the media have used this for demonisation of entire communities, which has become a very fashionable thing today."
It also emerged that the MCB had sent a letter to Communities Secretary Ruth Kelly, accusing her of pandering to an "Islamophobic" agenda.

Right, thats the background. I just took a poll on AOL regarding the issue, and I chose NO for 'should she be sacked' and NO again for 'does wearing the veil affect her abilty to teach'. Here are the results from that poll:

Should she be sacked?
Results: Votes Per cent
Yes 62,886 84%
No 12,010 16%

Does wearing the veil affect her ability to teach?
Results: Votes Per cent
Yes 60,190 80%
No 14,706 20%

Total votes: 149,792

And the Western World isnt singling out Muslims because of all the terror attacks... my fucking arse it isnt :mad: Ill agree that with babies the veil SHOULD be taken off, as facial expressions are extremely important for that age range, but she is only a TEACHING ASSISTANT IN A PRIMARY SCHOOL (ages 4 to 10, I think, someone correct me on this if I am wrong :) )

[Torog]

Howdy Tom,

So you side with that there woman,huh ?

Wearing a veil,is a security threat,as there have been many instances of homicide bombers and muslim-jihadists,dressing in women's clothes,with the veil and all,to hide bomb belts and other weapons. It seems to me,the security of the children is more important than the 'right' of a muslim woman to wear a burkha.

Do you have any idea how badly muslim women are treated under Islam ? The very act of wearing a veil,strips a woman of her identity and it goes downhill from there..women and female muslims have little more status than the family goat and family camel,the male children have almost as much authority as their fathers.

Supporting the wearing of the veil,is actually supporting wahhabism and sharia law,the most brutal and oppressive forms of islamism.

Have a good one ...

[sleepinwifsilentbob]

I agree with you a 100% percent. They are creating issues where there are none. That teacher should absolutely have no problem wearing her veil. However, what about the issue of her not working with men? barring men from working with her is discrimination.
10 years ago the Canadian government went to supreme court because a sikh Mounted Police officer wanted to wear his turban,and was unable to dress in "full uniform". There was huge backlash as Canada considers the mountie uniform especially the hat, to be a "symbol" But the Gentleman won, as he should. In this case there was no real argument against, except to keep out dated policy in place. 10 years later, and we have not lost the identity of our mounties because we allowed religious rights and freedoms.
There are some issues that we need to address, and get out though, or the line will keep pushing back.
Here in Ontario, there is an ongoing issue about the ceremonial knives being brought to schools. I went to highschool with metal detectors, and not making eye contact with students I didn't know for saftey reasons, so I stand by the judgement of the school board. Ceramonial knives should be left at home or mosque. The religious argument says that it is an interval part of their spirituality and they have the right to carry them. So I ask, what do you think? When the religious rights of one, infringe on the basic human rights and/ or safety of another? In fact I've heard gang members are using the veil argument for their own case, because they are not allowed to wear bandanas in the school, as it obscures their face and is a safety issue.
We know logicly that there is no harm in a young muslim girl wearing her veil to class, and that bandana's signify gang colours ......but why does one persons religious/ human rights hold up in a public class room where policy for all other student does not?
Arguments?

[Psycho4Bud]

It seems to me,the security of the children is more important than the 'right' of a muslim woman to wear a burkha.

Hey Torog........couldn't agree more with ya. I don't think it's a good idea to let people into the school system wearing this type of clothing just because of the safety aspect. Who knows what's being carried into the school or if that is actually the teacher walking in.

Certain professions SHOULD have certain personal guidelines. I think making the personal choice of wearing a mask for life kind of limits your career choices also...........

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[Torog]

Hey Torog........couldn't agree more with ya. I don't think it's a good idea to let people into the school system wearing this type of clothing just because of the safety aspect. Who knows what's being carried into the school or if that is actually the teacher walking in.

Certain professions SHOULD have certain personal guidelines. I think making the personal choice of wearing a mask for life kind of limits your career choices also...........

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

Howdy and Good mornin !

I figured that you'd understand .. :thumbsup:

Have a good one ! :stoned::D

[Tom Swierzbinski]

Torog, I like the fact that you have bought in the security issue. There is nothing more important than the security of the younger generation, as when we retire (something I am a long way off from!) they are there to carry on caring for the community.
However, how is a burkha a security issue? Just because you cannot see their face? I see baggy clothing more of a security issue, as guns and knives can easily be hidden under baggy combat trousers/jumpers without raising suspicion. Maybe we in the U.K. need to implement some sort of metal detectors in high risk public places (schools, for example) BEFORE the shootings start. Already we are starting to see shootings in broad daylight in the streets, it is only a matter of time before a madman or someone with a vendetta carries out a shooting in a school.

I am only just starting to read and learn about the Islam way of life (doing a project about it for Media), and no doubt the Muslim women from oppressive countries come to the U.K. to escape that oppression. However, it is their choice to wear the burkha, as we do not carry harsh death penalties for not wearing it. I do not support the wearing of the veil or burkha, it is simply their choice - as soon as they step on our land, that is...

Sleepinwifsilentbob (Ill just call you Sleepin from now on, less strain on the wrists :) ) I agree that ceremonial knives MUST be left a home or at the mosque. THAT is an outright security issue. The gang members wanting to wear their rags/bandanas is totally rediculous... being in a gang is hardly the same as worshipping Allah (PBUH... I try to please all religions, although I am a Christian).

P4B, the aspect that 'choosing' to follow a religion has an impact on career choices is certainly a sad one. I feel that if it were not for bin Laden and his gang (today, I will not start preaching on how I believe it was the government who carried out 9/11) then society as a whole would be more trusting in muslims. Even I must admit that after the 7/7 bombings in London I was a lot more wary of muslims carrying backpacks, a fact that I am not proud of, but I have grown more mature since then. There are a few women here in Kettering that wear burkhas, and when I see them I will say hello to them and they always say hello back.
Just because they wear a burkha doesnt mean that they are any less human than you and I... but I feel that you know that already :)

[Torog]

Howdy Tom,

I realize that yer sincere in yer intent,but you are way off base,back in the 80's,I got a crash course in Islam,wahhabism and sharia law,when I went to work in Saudi,drillin water wells for em.

It works like this,if a woman is caught on the street without her burkha,she will be beaten all the way to prison,it ain't a choice--it's a requirement. They even made our women soldiers in DS1,wear dang burkha's of base. Wearing a burkha,has nothing to do with freedom of choice..and everything to do with oppression and brutality and the extreme denial of women's rights. Also,if you continue to say hello to muslim women wearing burkhas,there's a good chance that they will be beaten,when they git home,if one of the 'holy men' are spying on them,like they do in Saudi. If us roughnecks had said anything to a woman in Saudi,out of a gesture of friendliness,we'd have both been thrown in jail,we weren't even allowed to look at them.

So you see,the burkha is a symbol of brutal oppresion at the hands of muslim males..not some kind of religious freedom. As for their ceremonial knives,daggers and swords,all the ones I saw in Saudi,were fully functional and sharp as a razor. When I first set foot in Saudi,I had to walk down a double-line of guards,all carrying daggers and swords on them,along with sub-machine guns..I was later told,that if they had to kill me for some reason,that they'd rather pull out their ceremonial dagger or sword,than use their machine guns.

You need to do some reading up on wahhabism and sharia law.

Have a good one ....

[Psycho4Bud]

P4B, the aspect that 'choosing' to follow a religion has an impact on career choices is certainly a sad one. I feel that if it were not for bin Laden and his gang (today, I will not start preaching on how I believe it was the government who carried out 9/11) then society as a whole would be more trusting in muslims. Even I must admit that after the 7/7 bombings in London I was a lot more wary of muslims carrying backpacks, a fact that I am not proud of, but I have grown more mature since then. There are a few women here in Kettering that wear burkhas, and when I see them I will say hello to them and they always say hello back.
Just because they wear a burkha doesnt mean that they are any less human than you and I... but I feel that you know that already :)


It works like this,if a woman is caught on the street without her burkha,she will be beaten all the way to prison,it ain't a choice--it's a requirement.

In some countries/cultures this is a requirement but in the U.K. and the U.S they are beyond that.....it is a "choice". This brings on the thought of why? Do they follow the more moderate teachings or are they more inclined to the extremist version? Granted, the vast majority aren't terrorists but what about that one? Should we take a chance with the kids? "What if" this nice teacher was jacked up by an extremist and this individual walked into a school setting under the cover of a burkha?

Unfortunately there are assholes in all races/religions and it's a shame we have to take a look at all the "what ifs". Example:

The Beslan school hostage crisis (also referred to as the Beslan school siege or Beslan Massacre) began when armed Muslim terrorists[1] took more than 1200 school children and adults hostage on September 1, 2004, at School Number One (SNO) in the Russian town of Beslan in North Ossetia.

On the third day of the standoff, shooting broke out between the hostage-takers and Russian security forces. According to official data, 344 civilians were killed, 186 of them children,[2] and hundreds more wounded.

Since this type of thing is a reality we must take precautions to make sure something similar can't happen. I was at the Mall of America a few weeks back and saw many ladies wearing Burkhas.......never gave it a second thought really being out in a public setting like that but I think I'd have an issue with that dress in our schools. Ever hear that saying about someone spoiling it for everyone? Unfortunately that's the case here.

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[Bong30]

MUSLIM women stand up take off you BERKA, and have equal rights to men. YOU are not our PROPERTY, You should have education and wear want you want to.


Islam Needs a reformation...Starting with equal rights for women.


Fire that bitch..............

[Ignatius]

I've been following this debate quite closely and I agree with Torog 100%.

With regard to her position as a teaching assistant it is imperative that she remove that veil during classes, and anywhere that children will see her. The sight of a woman in a burkha and a veil which coveres the full face is frightening for a small child. When my daughter was a little younger than she is now she found the sight of these women in full veil and burkha to be quite terrifying. Whenever we passed them in the street she would instinctively cling to me in fear. Now, I don't think my little girl is a racist. She has a lot of friends of all clours in her class and she plays with them all. It's not an issue within the home either as she sees my friends of all races coming to visit and stuff. There's just something terrifying about someone wearing a mask when you are a small child. No amount of cultural readjustment or any other such nonsense is going to change that. The woman can either take off that veil or lose her job. No two ways about it. Would they let me go into a school dressed up as Darth Vader? Of course not, so let's have a bit of common sense here. England is a secular country and religion is a private issue. It ought to be kept that way.

Incidentally, I heard the woman in question being interviewed on the radio the other day and she sounded like a complete cretin. As well as having nothing to say of any note, and being unable to string a sentence together without using the word "ermmmmm" she was possessed of a quite obvious speech impediment. Coupled with a very strong "asian" accent it was practically impossible to understand a word she was saying.

[Ozarks]

Obviously she has no desire to" become British", and believes Britain should change it's culture to placid her.

[Fengzi]

I've been following this debate quite closely and I agree with Torog 100%.

With regard to her position as a teaching assistant it is imperative that she remove that veil during classes, and anywhere that children will see her. The sight of a woman in a burkha and a veil which coveres the full face is frightening for a small child. When my daughter was a little younger than she is now she found the sight of these women in full veil and burkha to be quite terrifying. Whenever we passed them in the street she would instinctively cling to me in fear. Now, I don't think my little girl is a racist. She has a lot of friends of all clours in her class and she plays with them all. It's not an issue within the home either as she sees my friends of all races coming to visit and stuff. There's just something terrifying about someone wearing a mask when you are a small child. No amount of cultural readjustment or any other such nonsense is going to change that. The woman can either take off that veil or lose her job. No two ways about it. Would they let me go into a school dressed up as Darth Vader? Of course not, so let's have a bit of common sense here. England is a secular country and religion is a private issue. It ought to be kept that way.

.

I was thinking along the same lines. To say that her veil does not prevent her from doing her job is taking a pretty narrow view of "doing her job". There is more to teaching than just lecturing and writing on the board, especially at an elementary (they said "junior" school so I'm making an assumption) level. My big question is would it be a distraction for the children and how would they respond to it? To be a teacher implies that those who are being taught are learning. If her wearing the veil in any way inhibits the children's learning, say by being such a distraction that they pay more attention to it than their lessons, than it should be forbidden.

Their has to be a limit on the whole "freedom of religion" argument when it is applied to discrimination in the workplace. What if she were a he, and was from some tribe in Papua New Guniea were the men wear nothing but a penis gourd (http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/pgourd3b.jpg). If he were a teacher, would he be allowed to wear that to class? Most likley not. But what it was part of his religion? Wouldn't it be descrimination to forbid him from wearing it? If this woman is allowed to wear her veil, then he would have to be allowed his gourd.

What if in addition to her veil she expects to be allowed to stop class so she can face Mecca and pray several times a day? Should this be allowed? And, at what point does all of this start to impose on a child's right not to have the Mulsim religion forced on him/her?

Bottom line, it is wrong to deny someone a job because of their religion. It is not wrong, however, to demand that they adhere to a certain code of conduct and demeanor.

[VoidLivesOn]

If this is really a safety issue and it would bother them that much then why won't they just search her every morning to refrain from making is such a big controversy. Or I guess they might just be against the religous practice?

[VoidLivesOn]

I've been following this debate quite closely and I agree with Torog 100%.

With regard to her position as a teaching assistant it is imperative that she remove that veil during classes, and anywhere that children will see her. The sight of a woman in a burkha and a veil which coveres the full face is frightening for a small child. When my daughter was a little younger than she is now she found the sight of these women in full veil and burkha to be quite terrifying. Whenever we passed them in the street she would instinctively cling to me in fear. Now, I don't think my little girl is a racist. She has a lot of friends of all clours in her class and she plays with them all. It's not an issue within the home either as she sees my friends of all races coming to visit and stuff. There's just something terrifying about someone wearing a mask when you are a small child. No amount of cultural readjustment or any other such nonsense is going to change that. The woman can either take off that veil or lose her job. No two ways about it. Would they let me go into a school dressed up as Darth Vader? Of course not, so let's have a bit of common sense here. England is a secular country and religion is a private issue. It ought to be kept that way.

Incidentally, I heard the woman in question being interviewed on the radio the other day and she sounded like a complete cretin. As well as having nothing to say of any note, and being unable to string a sentence together without using the word "ermmmmm" she was possessed of a quite obvious speech impediment. Coupled with a very strong "asian" accent it was practically impossible to understand a word she was saying.

Well I'm from somewhere not so secular and private about religion and I think your statement about a child being scared to death of some lady with her face covered up is probably true, but in an extreme way. I'm sure there could, in fact, be adjustment especially with a child. A child would not see this lady and shun her from her/his life...they could get to know this teacher and actually be raised in a culturally disparate enviroment. That way were not rasing a bunch of sheltered, arrogant children oblivous to the fact its possible for people to look different then mommy or daddy.

Other than that I have never heard this lady talk or seen her I just know of her situation, and felt that the idea of the way she chooses to dress her self, be it for beliefs or not, wouldn't effect a child.

Safety of course is another issue. Pit Bulls attack everyday, for that reason most people treat that particular dog differently then other dogs. Muslims in veils have been known to be violent, as a result are treated differently.

[Psycho4Bud]

What if she were a he, and was from some tribe in Papua New Guniea were the men wear nothing but a penis gourd (http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/pgourd3b.jpg). If he were a teacher, would he be allowed to wear that to class?

LMAO!!! First thing that came to mind is that pointer that the teachers use. Thanks for the laugh dude!!!:D

Have a good one!:thumbsup:

[VoidLivesOn]

I was thinking along the same lines. To say that her veil does not prevent her from doing her job is taking a pretty narrow view of "doing her job". There is more to teaching than just lecturing and writing on the board, especially at an elementary (they said "junior" school so I'm making an assumption) level. My big question is would it be a distraction for the children and how would they respond to it? To be a teacher implies that those who are being taught are learning. If her wearing the veil in any way inhibits the children's learning, say by being such a distraction that they pay more attention to it than their lessons, than it should be forbidden.

Their has to be a limit on the whole "freedom of religion" argument when it is applied to discrimination in the workplace. What if she were a he, and was from some tribe in Papua New Guniea were the men wear nothing but a penis gourd (http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/pgourd3b.jpg). If he were a teacher, would he be allowed to wear that to class? Most likley not. But what it was part of his religion? Wouldn't it be descrimination to forbid him from wearing it? If this woman is allowed to wear her veil, then he would have to be allowed his gourd.

What if in addition to her veil she expects to be allowed to stop class so she can face Mecca and pray several times a day? Should this be allowed? And, at what point does all of this start to impose on a child's right not to have the Mulsim religion forced on him/her?

Bottom line, it is wrong to deny someone a job because of their religion. It is not wrong, however, to demand that they adhere to a certain code of conduct and demeanor.

oh...ok

[Torog]

If this is really a safety issue and it would bother them that much then why won't they just search her every morning to refrain from making is such a big controversy. Or I guess they might just be against the religous practice?

Howdy Void,

You bring up an interesting point,that being that if the pc crowd wins on this issue,then she should agree to being submitted to a weapon scan and a bomb-sniffing dog,everyday. To search her physically,would result in outrage and the neighborhood will burn,as muslims seem to prefer violence and not dialogue and compromise,and submitting her to a bomb-sniffing dog,is another outrage to muslims,as dogs are considered impure. In fact,muslim taxi-drivers,refuse to pick -up folks with dogs or holding alcoholic drinks in their hands,even if it's a blind person,with a guide dog.

So you see,it seems that muslims believe that it's perfectly fine-to impose their religious beliefs on us..no tolerance or compromise,is in the equation..why do we put up with a double standard ?

Have a good one ...

[ukmonkey]

My god I would not like to see her walk into my school for her sake. She would be the one who got terrorised.