A question from a doctor. Need some info.

[Dr.G.H.]

Hello.

I am an M.D. (Neurology).

And I have a few questions to ask so I decided to ask here (since I donâ??t know exactly who to ask that would have extensive knowledge in this area).

I have a patient that has a very serious form of MS. The symptoms have progressed to a very terrible point. Many of the traditional meds have not been able to subdue the symptoms.

The patient decided to try marijuana to see if it would help (I was a little hesitant at first, but seeing this patient suffer a lot deeply troubled me, so I thought it wouldnâ??t technically hurt anymore than the symptoms do).

The patient never used marijuana before, and I had no knowledge than the basic medical and media knowledge of it.

The patient tried it. It worked unbelievably, and the patient said it was nice as well and ended up liking the feeling associated with it.

After 3 months of using it, the patient purchased some more, and used it. The results were not good! The patient suffered from a type of psychotic episode. The way the patient described it, it sounded like a very terrible hallucinogenic effect.

The patient said the effects were almost immediate. It included a complete distortion of reality, a distortion of the vision, and hearing. He said its like everything slowed down and that time was â??warpedâ?� and that his legs felt heavy. The patient said it felt like he was dieing. The patient said that he apparently started screaming in fear, and felt like he had jumped outside of his body (the way he described it, it sounded like a dissociative-personality type of symptom). The patient additionally described an extreme form of paranoia. And all these effects last for roughly several hours.

Since then, the patient has developed severe anxiety attacks, sensory-motor distortions, and he says whenever he thinks of the incident, he immediately feels like it will happen again, and he begins to shake and gets scared, and then a panic attack sets in.

I want to know if the incident that this patient felt was normal amongst marijuana users?

I decided to research this a little more since it didnâ??t make sense to me. How can this patient use marijuana for 3 months with no hallucinogenic effects, then all of a sudden one day completely lose control and have effects similar to LSD.

So I ended up asking the patient to tell me what (if anything was different than before) and this is what I found out. Apparently this patient first purchased marijuana that smelt good, he said it was a very nice smell, and that were lots of seeds. The marijuana the he purchased just prior to the incident was different. He said this new one had no seeds at all and appeared to have orange hairs over it, and that it smelt very different, almost like citrus and skunks.

The patient said the marijuana purchased with the seeds gave him a very relaxed feeling almost to the point of falling asleep (with no mental/visual/auditory distortions) and he said that it made him feel really happy. But this new stuff didnâ??t make him relax at all, it made him very terrified.

Iâ??ve researched information on the internet about marijuana, and I never knew there were so many different strains.

My second question is: were his negative effects caused by a certain strain, or did it have to do with the fact of seeds or no seeds in the marijuana?

If it is a question of strain/type of marijuana, do you know which strain/type is relaxing and â??not trippyâ?� (as the patient would say)?

Thanks,

Dr. G.H.

[ganjah]

There is a strong chance that the reason this happened is because it was either very powerful cannabis grown most likely indoors. Either that or it was laced with something maybe PCP but is very unlikely. Perhaps the cannabis he was smoking before in the three month period was not potent as the new stuff. I'm not sure which state your from but do you know if medical marijuana is legalised? Talk to your patient and see if either ofthese situations are possible.

[pu ekot]

MOM would probably be good for a patient, since they would know what they're getting every time.

My guess is that the first bag was weak, and the second was much more potent. Most people agree that seeds are bad and give you headaches.

[slowburn420]

i think he might have smoked too much of his new batch without testing its potency first. Alot of people dont say u hallucinate from marijuana, but if u have a low tolerance and smoke ALOT it can happen. i dont think i can get to the point of it being like taking acid, shrooms, pcp, etc. but i can be tramatizing. I would just tell him to smoke smaller ammounts until his tolerance builds up to his new marijuana.

[slipknotpsycho]

that sounds like a very severe panic attack to me, and weed does increase paranoia/anxiety in some people, it's happened to me a couple of times (and i have bad anxiety, i've even lost my sight for 10 mins before because of a panic attack, that sounded very similar to what you describe above) but it's usually rare. it helps if you are very comfterable where you are.

also if they wish to continue it (like i said this is kinda rare, doesn't happen to everyone, and those who it does happen to, it doesn't happen all the time) i suggest giving them a mild dose of some type of anti-anxiety medicine to avoid future attacks... this is of course all assuming i'm right and it was a panic attack.

[Storm Crow]

Thank you for consulting with actual "pot heads" to get your info (the government lies so very much about this subject!). I am a California MMJ user- I was hit on the head repeatedly with a hammer at age 3 and suffered from migraines and cluster head aches until I discovered cannabis at age 19. I'm 59 now. What happened is that your patient had an INDICA strain the first time. Indicas are fast growing, fat leafed plants that have sedative, soporific and analgesic properties (oh, it feels SO good using the proper words for a change!). They are, because of their faster growth rate, popular with growers. The second batch was likely a SATIVA strain. They are typically skinny leafed, take longer to mature and have a more "speedy" high. Your patient needs to get indicas with a reputation for "couchlock". The paranoia and such are fairly common with a few people after they smoke a sativa. Your patient was unlucky- most of the cannabis is indica or indica dominant crosses. The seeds do little to the "high" except to drain off some of the plant's energy from making THC to making seeds. Seedy cannabis is, if anything, a bit less potent. Smoking the seeds can also give some people headaches (and they taste bad, too). I would strongly suggest that your patient get a vaporizer- the Vapor Brother's type is a good compromise on efficiency and cost (about $150 USD). It eliminates the smoker's cough, uses much less cannabis, doen't smell up the house like smoking a joint, and the left-over pot can make some great stony brownies (yes, you can use the pot twice- a great money saver). For more information, run a search here or at Treatingyourself.com on vaporizers. Since your mind is open on the subject of medical marijuana, may I suggest some sites to further your education? What you find may well "blow your mind"! http://marijuana.researchtoday.net , ccicnewsletter.com , ccrmg.org , and for a medical user's site (please pass this to your cannabis patients) Treatingyourself.com. You (and any questions you have about medical use) will be most welcome at TY. :thumbsup: Please feel free to PM me with any questions. :)

[YoungShisha]

Well, Colored hairs on marijuana as well as no seeds usually means potent. like 15%-24% THC, very potent stuff. If a user is used to smoking what it seems like is schwag (marijuana with seeds, that is weak, cheap, outdoor grown) and then smokes some hydro (indoor grown, hydroponically grown) then there will be a totally different experience, not to mention the two main different strains of marijuana, Sativa and Indica. Indica, which would be better for the patient makes you feel more relaxed and kind of locked on the couch. While Sativa is an energetic high, so it really depends on what the patient wants. Make sure that the patient is using marijuana in a controlled setting that is comfortable with him, and also that he pays attention to his tolerance, not necesarrily to smoke till he's high but rather stop after a few hits and judge from there. The other day I took two hits of some good stuff, I was left very high, but at that time I felt like I wasn't going to get high at all. Hope I answered some of your questions. Now if you could do us a favor, and get marijuana legalized for recreational use, in small portions of course!

[myselfandi]

Sounds like he got a better bag of cannabis the second time around and didn't realize he should "test the waters" with every bag....rather than treat them all the same. He probably got really high, got scared...and from there a panic/anxiety attack can follow easily.

Three months smoking regular cannabis and then smoking just as much high-grade cannabis....well that is going to be an intense transition.

Tell him that everytime he gets a new bag, he needs to start out by taking 1-2 hits and seeing how it goes from there. This allows him to find his own dosage.

Also, if you haven't found it. Here is a link that will have a lot of valuable information for both you and your patient.

http://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis.shtml

And make sure your patient knows that using a psychoactive chemical in a setting in which you're not fully comfortable can raise the risk of having such an episode.

[greasecleaner61]

Storm Crow, so happy to see someone set the story straight. Your rite on about the gov and the bad rep. they give cannibis. Have always wondered why when they were the ones who first brought it to america in the first place.

[AlwaysBlazed]

Sativa isn't necessarily bad but if you're not expecting it maybe you'd panic.

[LIP]

It sounds as though the patient smoked a very strong indica strain of cannabis. The indica strain gives a body stone, which makes the body feel heavey, altohugh it is very relaxing. Chances are the patient has never smoked this type of cannabis before and didnt expect the strength. I highly doubt it gave him/her any hallucinogenic effects, although if he/she didnt expect this feeling they may have had a panic attack. Alot of people do have them, for some reason, although everyone knows that cannabis is harmless, and hasnt killed anyone EVER before.

The other explanation is the cannabis could have been laced with almost anything in liquid form, although i highly doubt this as its SO rare.

Thankyou for actually taking the time to ask us, were the ones who smoke it daily, in not hourly and were the ones who know what it does. The government spread so many lies its unbeleivable.

BUT always remember, cannabis cannot kill, no matter how strong, or how much is smoked. Its never killed ANYONE in its history, it wont start now.

[187]

It sounds as though the patient smoked a very strong indica strain of cannabis.

everybody said it was sativa except you haha

[myselfandi]

everybody said it was sativa except you haha

THC is a psychedelic, and if the patient hasn't smoked strong cannabis before...regardless of strain it can produce visual, audio, or olfactory hallucinations (though, I've never had olfactory). When I first started smoking, even schwagg (each time was months apart) would give me mild OEVs (such as a TV character being noticably "above" the rest of the picture (like 3d) as well as CEV patterning.

Becoming extremely stoned for the first time could be scary and cause anxiety if you're not expecting it! And when you freak out, it only gets worse.

[Dr.G.H.]

Hello All,

Thanks for the responses.

Well seeing as how the patient smoked it for three months, I really doubt it was caused because it was first time use. Three months, non-stop, every day, several times a day, is hardly first time usage.

Laced with something, I initially thought of that as well. And it still remains a possibility.

From what Iâ??ve read (from the links provided) it appears to be a strain issue. From what I could understand is that Sativaâ??s induce a psychedelic type of response with space/time distortions (which the patient experience during his incident) and that Indicaâ??s induce a relaxed feeling with no interference with perception or panic/anxiety (which he was used to for the first three months).

Can anyone guarantee this is true (from personal experiences)? [Because there seems to be mixed responses]

Dr.G.H.

[SpaceCaptainDimi]

a real doctor wouldnt be looking for answers on a stoner message board

[Dr.G.H.]

Then perhaps you could point me to the textbook or research article from a scientific journal that could answer my questions. If you believe I should not be here.

(By the way, Iâ??ve already met 5 other doctors from this forum that use it for information)

[intrepidus6]

SpaceCaptainDimi, that wasen't nice to say.

[Dutch Pimp]

..on a complicated case like this..the source of the weed would have to be controlled. The source would have to be very qualified...no dealers. You are in the wrong forum for answers you want.

[LIP]

everybody said it was sativa except you haha

If you read what the patient had told the doctor he said he had a heavey feeling, his legs were heavey, and this comes from an indica strain. Maybe i read it wrong, or maybe no one on here actually knows what the hell they are talking about.

"Colored hairs on marijuana as well as no seeds usually means potent"

This statement proves my point about people obviously NOT knowing what they are talking about. Yes, if its sinse its normally stronger, BUT the "hairs" that are actually called pistilles have no impact on the strength of the THC in the trichomes, infact they are nothing to do with THC.

[orangeman]

ROFL all of those symptoms sound like she smoked some dank...excuse me sorry I'm high :p, your patient is suffering from the symptoms of what I like to call a "marijuana high". Sounds like he got some killer Sativa or a deep Sativa / Slightly Indica hybrid. Try giving him some Indica bud with mostly CBD to kill the paranoia effects THC gives. To eliminate all that though just ask around for medicinal strains of marijuana for your patient. He'll be fine and once she learns to enjoy strong marijuana she'll feel better as she comes down and feel refresh :D.



Becoming extremely stoned for the first time could be scary and cause anxiety if you're not expecting it! And when you freak out, it only gets worse.

Yes, this is true. I know it because it happened to me lol.

[couch-potato]

Hello All,

Thanks for the responses.

Well seeing as how the patient smoked it for three months, I really doubt it was caused because it was first time use. Three months, non-stop, every day, several times a day, is hardly first time usage.

Laced with something, I initially thought of that as well. And it still remains a possibility.

From what Iâ??ve read (from the links provided) it appears to be a strain issue. From what I could understand is that Sativaâ??s induce a psychedelic type of response with space/time distortions (which the patient experience during his incident) and that Indicaâ??s induce a relaxed feeling with no interference with perception or panic/anxiety (which he was used to for the first three months).

Can anyone guarantee this is true (from personal experiences)?

Dr.G.H.

Yep. A Sativa strain will affect a person's mind, resulting in a more energetic, but more psychedelic high. Indicas will affect the body, making a "couch-lock" high that is extremely relaxed. The way I remember is: [B]Indica = In the couch.
Other than that, the best thing you can do is to make sure that your patient uses medicinal marijuana, that way they know exactly what strain they're getting, none of that "go into a dark alleyway and risk being stabbed to death just to find out that your bud has been laced with a lethal does of XXX drug and you are know going to die".

[Blazed and Confused]

If the possiblity of a lacing is still on the table, it would have likely been PCP, a drug known for its disassociative traits.

And LIP, hairs and seeds do not actually contain significant amounts of THC but they are tell-tale signs of potency. Seedy bud is usually low potency because the plant has been pollinated and is wasting energy on reproduction rather than THC production. As for the hairs, their is a proven coralation between amount of pistilles and potency of bud.

[Snorbel]

Hi.

I have only used Cannabis once. I ate it, and in fact I ate too much. I experienced many negative effects similar to those listed in your original post. I have not used it since.

I think you should tend towards the theory that the new Cannabis was not laced (that is quite unlikely), but in fact it was much more potent and/or a Sativa strain.

I think it was just an overdose/bad trip. You can look at erowid.org and see that all those effects can be because of cannabis.

[jDuBnBioSr]

WOW, that sounds terrible. I couldent imagine that happening to me, that sounds like the second time be bought the marijuana it might have been laced with somthing. Since marijuana with lots of seeds isnt that potent, and he had such strong effects, that also may mean it was laced.

[Th3 Chr0nic]

a real doctor wouldnt be looking for answers on a stoner message board
a real stoner wouldnt be such a negative asshole either, so stfu ass

i would say it was either VERY potent weed(which is usually quite a bit more expensive) or laced, and lacing does happen more than some ppl think.

[Bob the Awesome]

Smoking Cannabis can cause latent psychological disorders to become present in a small percentage of new users, although some things you described, such as time distortion, are normal and should not be seen with fear.

I'd say the MS and his experience are unrelated: If he has continuing problems he should see a psychotherapist for help. He also, obviously, should never use cannabis again.

[Bob the Awesome]

Oh, sorry, didn't cite my source: The idea of latent psychological disorders and cannabis comes from the Wikipedia entry on Cannabis or somesuch, which I'm sure references another source if you must know, being a medical professional and all.

[Kokujin X]

Yeah it was most definitely the change in strain that caused it. Indica causes a "body high" while Sativa causes a "mind high". Being a heavy cannabis user myself, there was one point where I had the same types of things happening after smoking chronic ($20 a gram, most the time sativa based). I would be walking and feel like my knees snapped and actually expected to tumble to the ground, thinking my face skin just slipped off my head, thinking my lung collapsed/ heart exploded, you name it. Along with extreme paranoia and constant panic attacks.

I had almost given up smoking weed all together but I kept smoking. What I realized is your mind has everything to do with it. I can now smoke as much weed I can get my hands on and not even worry about the same things. Just realize that you won't ever die from it and if you start trippin out (and it feels bad) just either forget about it and it will go away or change it. It really has a lot to do with the mental state of the patient. If their not able to keep controle then their likely to get scared.

[LIP]

If the possiblity of a lacing is still on the table, it would have likely been PCP, a drug known for its disassociative traits.

And LIP, hairs and seeds do not actually contain significant amounts of THC but they are tell-tale signs of potency. Seedy bud is usually low potency because the plant has been pollinated and is wasting energy on reproduction rather than THC production. As for the hairs, their is a proven coralation between amount of pistilles and potency of bud.

The "hairs" that are actually called pistilles do NOT have any effect on THC. THC is stored in the trichomes. The amount of pistilles, or colour means nothing.

I've been growing for a LONG time. Read up on it.

[YoungShisha]

If you read what the patient had told the doctor he said he had a heavey feeling, his legs were heavey, and this comes from an indica strain. Maybe i read it wrong, or maybe no one on here actually knows what the hell they are talking about.

"Colored hairs on marijuana as well as no seeds usually means potent"

This statement proves my point about people obviously NOT knowing what they are talking about. Yes, if its sinse its normally stronger, BUT the "hairs" that are actually called pistilles have no impact on the strength of the THC in the trichomes, infact they are nothing to do with THC.

I'm just saying, the whole pistilles/hairs are associated with good potent weed, obviously the percent THC is the actual determinator of potency. Unless THC crystals are on the outside and abundant, it's a lot easier to see colored hairs.