Is it just me or...

[wayoftheleaf]

Is it just me or as there just as many if not more pepole on this forums supporting athiesm?

Whether or not god exists is not the point im trying to make here, Athiests believe that the human mind can support itself without the belief in a higher power. I myself firmly believe the bible. However i am willing to go to hell on the premises of childish spite. This shows i am not willing to make a decision yet am adult enough to come to terms with it. Yet if you believe after you die you are completly gone, with absolutely nothing left of you except a body in a ground what is the point. It is just simply the fact there is absolutely nothing to live for if you dont have promise of something better afterwards. Your memory will eventually fade away and nothing will be left, no matter how firmly you attempt to plant it in stone.

Life is subjective. Everything about it is. Your mind creates your own reality. That reality is reality yet you cannot comprehend it. All of the millions, billions, trillions of variables in the equations. Do you know the actual chance of this happening by chance? In all actuality, ANY theory on how we came about is illogical. BELIEVING in god, or the absence of god, either one is illogical. Anything at all in this life is illogical. Yet living is logical and illogical, at the same time if there is nothing to hope for afterwards, or you have something waiting for you, dieing is logical and unlogical as well.

[Kokujin X]

I agree, it seems there is a whole load of athiests. But to each his own, the battle between God/no God will go on for as long as mankind lives. I believe in God, logically I don't find there couldn't be a God.

Like you said wayoftheleaf, if there is no God then life is illogical. It's completely ridiculous actually. Everything in this universe is going to one day be gone. On it's own natural progression, the universe is doomed. Everything dies, everything deteriorates, breaks down and if there is no God then there is absolutly no reason for any of it. Man is going to pass, life is going to pass and all that would be left is... well, nothing.

Also, just look at what we are. Being a programmer made this aspect more apparent to me. Take a Java workspace for example. When I make a program, it's usually pretty simplistic, 30-40 lines of code but behold, it works! It exists not because of chance, but only because I created it. If I keep this workspace open for 1 trillion years and did not touch it, do you know what would happen? Nothing. I wouldn't come back to see that a very complicated and detailed program wrote its self just by pure chance. It just would not happen.

Look at your digestive system. Carefully put together to crush up food, break it down further, digest vitamins, minerals and also has a way for you to get rid of it and this goes for every system of the body. Look at the male/female parts (not being dirty here...) How could this type of correlation be formed between 2 beings from nothing? The idea of 2 humans making another, this isn't stuff that just appears out of nowhere, even given the environment. It's completely compareable to programming. God made us just like I made that program.

And you know, the more and more technical you want to get about how God did everything the less and less we understand. Simple enough for a child but far too complicated for a genius.

[Hamlet]

'Believing in God' is a complex issue. For the first time in history one can safely say (at least here) that they haven't heard one word from God, or seen one rational reason to 'believe', without getting drawn and quartered, burned at the stake, or driven from society.

So one has to expect a reasonable amount of zeal when they make the statement that what they really believe is that the World has been bullshitting them about this god stuff long enough.

[fikusroot]

People believe in God for the very reason that they refuse to accept the fact that when they die, it will be almost as if they never lived at all. God gives people purpose and convenient answers to a very confusing world. That's why religous people are generally fairly happy. However, the majority of people that are athiests are so because they've been taught their whole life that they will not be able to make a difference and have come to accept that.

As for the notion that the universe is to complex to happen by chance, you are viewing complexity through the narrow window of human perception. Our universe in reality could be very simple. It could have been that the odds were stacked for the universe happening, and that the absence of the universe would have been far more improbable. Persoally, I lean towards the agnostic side that we have and never will have the ability to comprehend the nature of our universe, but what we cannot deny is that for whatever reason, we are here so we might as well make the best of it.

[Captain Hanks]

Is it just me or as there just as many if not more pepole on this forums supporting athiesm?

Whether or not god exists is not the point im trying to make here, Athiests believe that the human mind can support itself without the belief in a higher power. I myself firmly believe the bible. However i am willing to go to hell on the premises of childish spite. This shows i am not willing to make a decision yet am adult enough to come to terms with it. Yet if you believe after you die you are completly gone, with absolutely nothing left of you except a body in a ground what is the point. It is just simply the fact there is absolutely nothing to live for if you dont have promise of something better afterwards. Your memory will eventually fade away and nothing will be left, no matter how firmly you attempt to plant it in stone.

Life is subjective. Everything about it is. Your mind creates your own reality. That reality is reality yet you cannot comprehend it. All of the millions, billions, trillions of variables in the equations. Do you know the actual chance of this happening by chance? In all actuality, ANY theory on how we came about is illogical. BELIEVING in god, or the absence of god, either one is illogical. Anything at all in this life is illogical. Yet living is logical and illogical, at the same time if there is nothing to hope for afterwards, or you have something waiting for you, dieing is logical and unlogical as well.

I know what your saying, because what's the point in living in this agony of a world where everyone is so God-less these days. Life after death is a must, even majore evolutionists know that their theory is false, they use it as comfort.

[fikusroot]

how could they use it as comfort. The theory of evolution is more disturbing the comforting because it renders us even more insignificant. You are also admitting that you have n proof of a god and the only reason you believe in one is as a coping mechanism. I'm not saying that is a bad thing, but I still disagree with it because it is being ignorant of truth and facts.

[fikusroot]

What I believe is we are all in a very abstract sense, infinely knowledgeable beings who view the world through our very narrow window of perception. That window does not always show the truth. When we die, then the window is shattered and we get to know our true selves, the ones of infinate wisdom. I believe this in a very metaphoric way though, not literally.

[Krogith]

Jehovah god is proveing the fact that mankind Can Not Rule it self. There are people in this crupted system that are lost and he is loveingly allowing time to pass for thoses ones to come to love him. The rest of the world are set in there greedy HATEFUL ways and will be distroyed with the system of things SATAN has created. LISTION TO JESUS learn about his FATHER and Take to heart his words and apply them. Love your neighbor and your enemy for God Judges all. If your not applying what Jesus has tought then how can you Claim you know god? For there will be ones who call out to God "but i was a good person" God will say he does not know you because you have never applyed what my son whom I sent has Said. THE WORLD HAS FORGOTTEN YOU O JEHOVAH, PLEASE HELP ALL WHO CAN COME TO LOVE YOU. Jesus did what in his life? He tought about his father and about how you can draw close to him. This system of things will not go on forever DO NOT BE COUGHT UP IN IT!

[Mandelbrot]

It is just simply the fact there is absolutely nothing to live for if you dont have promise of something better afterwards.
The whole point is that everybody should understand that life is a cycle, when you'll die, oxygen, nitrogen, carbon, phosphore will be released from you and used by bacteria to reinsert theses molecule in the food chain, in the end, feeding other humans or animals like you do currently. The problem with some humans, is that we have reached a relatively higher sens of reflexion and thinking than other species and now some of us are thinking way too much and end up inventing the idea of God so it comfort themselves. But live your life for what it is now, instead of what it could be afterward according to a some bloke thousands years ago. Accept that life hasn't any deep reason, it just happened, a great coïncidence nonetheless, but it has no purpose but to live and to die.

Couple of months ago I had this reflexion while staring at my mother in her coffin at the funeral home. My family (aunts, oncle, grand mother/father) are all devout christian. They were all sad and crying, staring at my mother and everything. I was too, of course. But the reflexion I had was that, if they really believe firmly in God and the so-called idea of life after death, why are they sad if they are otherwise convinced they will see her(or any relative who dies) when they die? I should have been the only one sad as I knew for sure I wouldn't see my mother again, and certainely not when I will be dead. The only answer I came up with was that deep inside our subconsious, everyone knows that life after death isn't true, and so the reaction of crying comes from their subconsious which makes you realise you will never ever see your relative again. Now, there's something to be sad about, otherwise, crying is non sense for devout believer.

[mrdevious]

Argh - the fact that some people believe that everything in the universe happened by chance just astounds me!

The fact that people believe that evolution, or any other non-theistic process, works by a big one-in-a-trillion-chance POOF! ACCIDENT! astounds me.

Regarding some above posts, meaning and logic are not the same thing. You can't really say our universe is utterly "illogical" because it doesn't have a permanent meaning. Everybody seems to be clinging so hard to the illusion of permanence, when all observation shows us everything in our universe is impermanent. When the logic of a structured universe is dependant on "meaning" and a permanent existence, is the conclusion really logic, or desire?

Regarding the higher-up post, leaving a computer station would indeed never give results and leave us a complex computer program. But this is strawman-type fallacy I've seen countless times. Cellphones that can't design themselves, computer programs that can't write themselves, houses that can't build themselves etc. These analogies are working under the assumption that a process in one thing, must apply to ALL things, which just doesn't work. Cellphones, programs, houses, and individually wrapped slices of cheese all have one thing in common: they lack the organically-inique (and proven) biological mechanism of genetic mutation. Scientists have thoroughly explained, and to some degree pressented, how genetic codes can indeed write themselves. Not off some blank slate by some one-in-a-trillion accident, but through gradual changes and additions at the smallest levels happening over billions of years, through trillions, upon trillions, upon trillions of organisms. When two cellphones pass on their genetics, let me know.

and yes, I know many people will probably flame me for "not respecting" people's belief in god, but I don't see it as that at all. People are going to post countless threads here about the existence of god, and no doubt atheists will post a few about the non-existence as well. If one view is allowed so is the other. And if people are going to argue reasons for their being a god, I see no reason why the other can't be debated, that's the basis of philosophical discussion.

[wayoftheleaf]

I am an incredibly devout christian. yet to do or believe anything is illogical. Because everything is subjective like i said. everything can, and WILL, change. So believing in anything is simply illogical. yet i believe in christianity because i know there is a life after death. This is not a statement, it is a fact. I know that we have souls and that they pass on when we die. I believe in heavan and hell. Noone can grasp eternity, for we are mortal creatures. But eternity is not subjective. it is the only logical thing. time and space. Those are the only two things not subjective. You can believe there will always be space, and there will always be time. i can see that not many people here are familiar with the ripple effect. let me put it this way, if one bacteria had zoomed left, when it should have zoomed right, out of the primordial ooze, we wouldnt be here. everything affects everything eventually.

[mrdevious]

So if I'm reading that clearly.... belief in anything is illogical, unless it's belief in what you believe. er... I'm sorry, what you KNOW. Obviously you've convinced yourself so thoroughly that you couldn't possibly be wrong of these facts. I tip my hat to you good sir, oh master of all infallable logic.

[Krogith]

space and time would be gone if Jehovah decided, for he created them
what do you say to that? you are just looking from a physical point of view. From dust you came and dust you will return ( there no everlasting soul)

[fikusroot]

How do you know Jehova exists? You wouldn't even know about him unless someone had told you about him. How do you know he created time? Because you read about it in a book written by men? Even if you believe that Jehova used man as a vessel for his teachings he is still using the imperfect body of man. Men lie. There is no proof but you believe in Jehova or whatever because it makes life easier on you. Do not flame me. In your eyes im going to hell and I know that so spare me and dont "feel sorry for me." Just think about what I've said and if you still have faith (which you probably will) then congratulations to you. I truly wish I could be brainwashed into believing in a God and I do not mean that sarcastically.

[smoke it]

Argh - the fact that some people believe that everything in the universe happened by chance just astounds me!

im just putting in my two cents, not tryin to convert anybody. here it goes...

i went to one of those church classes for kids awhile back when i was twelve, and the dude there said the chances of there being other life is like 400 quadrillion to one, so there must be god. i said to him as far as we know, the univnerse is a big, never ending expanse, at least in this lifetime, right? he said yes. i then said if the chances are 400 quadrillion to one, and the universe never ends then there should be trillions of other planets with life on them, there are just incredibly spaced out, right? shut his ass right up. so according to what we (the public at least) know now, there must be life out there. the chances (according to our current information) of life being there are much greater. that makes more sense to me then god ever will

[fikusroot]

Well, I'v found nobody that can give satisfactory justificaton for real religion. It's like if somebody sees the color red. They know what red looks like, they know it's called red. What do you think they're going to say if somebody comes along and gives them 3 million reasons why red isn't red? They will ignore it becuase to them, red is red and that's good enough for them. You may plant some seeds of doubt, but in the end it is far more convenient to believe in red.

[Krogith]

there are 2 options no god or god. the 1st means in the end nothing matters. the latter means he would have a means or way to draw close or get to know him and his plain. you can pick ither or thats fine both came from nothing right? I choose to have a path instead of the life = nothingness. you have to pick ither your life matters and there is a god that wants to draw close to you and help you learn about him and his goal for mankind, or you randomly poped up, and so what ever you do it is all for nothing because in due time humans will distroy this earth and well all be more dust in the universe.

[fikusroot]

Well, as you chose the path of probably more happiness, I chose the path of truth or at least the most truth I can find. I used to fall back on ignorance but I think now I've accepted that there is not god. we're here be it by god or whatever and that's all that matters.

[wayoftheleaf]

I am not even close to cinvinced my beliefs are true. There are so many different possabilities than what i have listed. Now on the premises that god lives OUTSIDE of time and space, then yes he could get rid of them. But i think that god is the god of THIS plain. and he exists on a higher plain. I believe there are many other plains(dimensions) other than this one that we live in. each has its own set of rules(physics) that must be abided by. I believe that god wrote the bible through mortal men. but at the same time, mortal men wrote it. And on a subconcious level man wants to be remembered after he dies. So he tells stories greater than they really are. i believe the morals and principils of the bible. For athiests, i believe the bible is a good way to live your life. Even if the athiests dont believe in God.

[fikusroot]

But good and bad are all relative creations of man that constantly change. I agree that christianity in theory is a very good life model but then again, my definitions of good aren't necessarily true.

[Krogith]

If you can choose to belive that everything came from NOTHING, use that same lodgic to say god has always been and has a purpose. your Faith allows you to belive in nothing produceing something. my Faith has found the bible and it makes sence it adds up. We would have something to guide us in life and help us.

[wayoftheleaf]

I am in a slight state of confusion, can anyone, anyone mind you, tell me how a bunch of lava with absolutely nothin gliving in it, created a living organsim, bacteria, which in turn evolved into us?

[Krogith]

where did the ATOMS COME FROM?> what caused any atom to exsist? where did that come from? something is a SORCE of this power and aw we call life.

[wayoftheleaf]

how did anything come to exist. what created this. The only thing we can accept is that it was always here. But it had to get here somehow. something had to happen for it to come about as it did. we as humans cannot grasp eternity. btw krogith, im agreeing with you lol

[Krogith]

Serch for the true religion look at each and apply it to what the bible and Jesus tought. Peace and kindness, Humble, Love for your neighbor, No carven images you can easyly see what religions are false.
GET OUT OF THESE.

[Hamlet]

One of the biggest problems with the God debate is the assumption that there must be some Creator because of all the groovy things in the Universe. That wouldn't be so bad because at least the dialogue could stay within the realm of the rational.

Where it all turns to insanity is when the 'believers' choose to believe in God, and then make this enormous leap into "therefore he must be hooked up with religion. Sociology takes over and the assumptions start flying. "God is surely a man. He must be like a King. Surely he communicated, or communicates with us at some point." etc, etc,. That's when it all goes down hill from there. --we've got to please him. he wants a jehod. He's speaking through this person, or another. Those who don't believe the way I do are the 'bad guys'.

If there was a Godl, don't you think he would clear this whole mess up of his own volition?

[Krogith]

God's direction is in the bible and he clearly says mankind is for him to judge not you or some jehad. These are signs of false religion. The ones trying to kill others are crupted by satan. And Satan is in controll of not only false religion but the world powers have always been under satan's control

[JaggedEdge]

I think most of the people here are agnostic, not athiest. I myself am agnostic and here again are the resons.

1. I feel organized religion has a negative impact on society.

2. There is no proof that god exists.

3. There is no proof god doesn't exist.

4. I am fine with ceasing to exist upon death.

5. This is life I know, this is the life I'm living, why worry about something that may or may not come.

I have to say, I have little respect for people who believe in god because that is what they were taught to be true. Now this is not an attack on the author of this thread, but at least think about this topic for yourself. If once you have thought about it and believe there must be a god, than great. But I can't help but stress how much people need to reasearch things for themselves.

Everything we are told is not true, always keep that in mind. Stepping away from religion for a moment, a few examples of this are...

1. The civil war was not about slavery.

2. Lincoln did not care about the slaves freedom at all.

3. Columbus was not the first person to say the world was round. Many intelligent people at the time already knew the truth.


My point is this, think for yourself. Don't let a priest tell you what you need to believe. Think about it, do some research, than pick a stance on a topic. Again, this is not directed at anyone in perticular, I just tend to see a lot of narrow minded and ignorant people on this site. Think for yourselves.

[Snowman1900]

Serch for the true religion look at each and apply it to what the bible and Jesus tought. Peace and kindness, Humble, Love for your neighbor, No carven images you can easyly see what religions are false.
GET OUT OF THESE.


wow

[wayoftheleaf]

civil war was mainly about state rights, and vikings came to north american continent long before columbus.

I was agnostic before i made the decision myself. I stopped being agnostic 6 months ago after 3 years of it.

[.undefined]

"Life after death is a must, even majore evolutionists know that their theory is false, they use it as comfort."

Statements like these are what piss me off. How do you know that? And why would evolutionists simply lie to the world about their beliefs. That's stupid.

"Also, just look at what we are. Being a programmer made this aspect more apparent to me. Take a Java workspace for example. When I make a program, it's usually pretty simplistic, 30-40 lines of code but behold, it works! It exists not because of chance, but only because I created it. If I keep this workspace open for 1 trillion years and did not touch it, do you know what would happen? Nothing. I wouldn't come back to see that a very complicated and detailed program wrote its self just by pure chance. It just would not happen."

Not trying to bash you but this isn't a very good arguement. Your program written in java was written within the computational constraints of a computer. There is, like you said, absolutely no way that your 40 lines of code could begin to generate new code. But the universe is subject to very different laws and rules than a computer so comparing the two really doesn't make sense.

I, too, lean toward agnosticism but I believe in a lot of Buddhist teachings simply because they make sense to me. And the teachings to which I refer are really more like the basic rules for living a good life as outlined by most major world religions. I do not, however, believe in the specifics such as heaven and hell, god, the bible, etc. Damn this is hard to explain... what I really mean is that I think most major religions outline a basic set of moral and ethical codes which make sense to me and in my eyes are essential to being a kind and good person.

[.undefined]

THE WORLD HAS FORGOTTEN YOU O JEHOVAH, PLEASE HELP ALL WHO CAN COME TO LOVE YOU.
I don't think God has the intarnet.

[.undefined]

there are 2 options no god or god. the 1st means in the end nothing matters. the latter means he would have a means or way to draw close or get to know him and his plain. you can pick ither or thats fine both came from nothing right? I choose to have a path instead of the life = nothingness. you have to pick ither your life matters and there is a god that wants to draw close to you and help you learn about him and his goal for mankind, or you randomly poped up, and so what ever you do it is all for nothing because in due time humans will distroy this earth and well all be more dust in the universe.

In my opinion there is really only one right decision here.. and that's to choose the path of "life = nothingness" simply because there is no proof as to the other path. Tell me what happens if you believe in all that your entire life and then you get to the end and nothing happens... you've spent your entire life hoping and expecting something profound to happen. You expect to see and meet god and to understand his plan but you don't. Then how would you feel. Like people have said, the reason god exists in your life is to give meaning to your life. You simply choose this path because it is most comforting... honestly who wants to believe that "life = nothingness." The other choice is just so enticing. But like I said, there is no proof so believing in god is essentially a gamble.

Ugh, that was really poorly worded and probably sounds offensive. Too tired to clean it up.. I'm sure you all understand what I mean.

[wayoftheleaf]

im not saying that the christian way is the only way. If you wont to be athiest or agnostic thats your business. All i am saying is that either way could end up being pointless. Atleast the way of believing in God there is a chance it isn't.

[MegaOctane12]

I would rather take into account that I know what I know, and what I don't know, not only dosen't bother me, but dosen't have such a profound impact on my life, I dedicate myself to believing wholeheartdly in something that is wrong.That would mean I block out reality as it is and become completely self absorbed in my own ideas, thoughts, beliefs,that include only my own vision and affects my own warped judgement on what really is. This is all God lovers are about, once you've seen one you've seen them all.

[Krogith]

explain that please? you belive that there is nothing such as a Wrong and everything is right in certain light?