For all you non-believers....

[IamTheWalrus]

I was just wondering why some people prefer to believe in nothing than believe in God. no im not saying everyone that does not believe in god, believes in nothing im just wondering how you think? Im trying to understand how people believe god does not exist and that our entire universe came from nothing(sorrry gas and dust). Im not looking for an arguement just a good conversation.

and this is my first post on this forum so i guess nice to meet you all :thumbsup:

[Captain Hanks]

One of the laws of science is that nothing can spawn from nothing! They're has to be a creator. Some say the universe allways was. If so, explain this. Laws in science say that heat seeks out cold. If you put a cold glass of water next to a hot glass of water and seal them in a box, the hot glass will seek out the cold and when opend later they will be at the same temperature. Now if the universe allways has been, then how come different sections have a different temperature then others. Therefore it was created and had a beggining. We live in a digital world. A famous scientist did an experiment a while back, and when he found the outcome he killed himself. He took a string and cut it in half, and he kept doing it over and over again making it smaller and smaller. Now there was a certain measurement that he was able to get down to (can't remember the measurement) where if he cut it any more it would explode into millions of peices and suround our universe! We live in a 3 dimesional world when our math has showed us there are at least 7 other dimensions...:confused: :o :stoned:

[IamTheWalrus]

My problem has always been if god created all of what we know how was god created, obviously the human mind will never know.....

[jamstigator]

I don't believe in nothing, or God. I'm awaiting evidence. If there's a God out there, great, but nobody's proven it, and nobody *can* prove there isn't one (since you can't prove a negative). So, I'm still patiently hoping someone can and will prove there is a God, but I'm not going to *assume* there is one. (You know what they say about assuming.)

I have a feeling we're just the product of random chance on the third planet orbiting an unremarkable star in an unremarkable galaxy which is just one of millions and millions of other galaxies in the universe. But who knows.

[Hamlet]

Does it really matter what I believe? Believing doesn't change the facts. I always did find it annoying that the prerequisit for escaping eternal damnation was believing in a bunch of very improbable fables though. Ya gotta figure, if there was a God (one that's supposed to be 'good'), why would he set it up that way? Would he really want his followers to be the stupid ones who were too chickenshit to think for themselves? After all he's the one who's got to hang around with them for eternity. Geez, after a few thousand years of hearing Pat Robertson and Jerry Faldwell whine I would think he would be ready for some more interesting company. I would be pulling Mark Twain and Voltaire out of Hell just for someone interesting to talk to....lol

But as far as 'belief' goes. I see no problem suspecting that there might possibly be some superior intelligence behind it all. But to buy into some mean old man with a long white beard on a throne someplace takes a twist of reason that most rational people would have a lot of trouble with unless you've been brainwashed since birth.

Oh, and 'Hi Walrus!'...choo choo ka choo!

[graymatter]

If belief works for you I think that's great. My problem is the same as stated here and countless other places. God, as the supreme authority and creator, is make believe. Wars and the most horrible atrocities are waged in the name of God, which is evidence enough to me that we humans created him/her/it... with some variations from religion to religion (not to mention major variations within religions).

So before you write me off as a heretic, I understand the social and cultural need for unquestionable authority in life. The earth is as much cruel as it is beautiful...

[Oneironaut]

I was just wondering why some people prefer to believe in nothing than believe in God. no im not saying everyone that does not believe in god, believes in nothing im just wondering how you think? Im trying to understand how people believe god does not exist and that our entire universe came from nothing(sorrry gas and dust). Im not looking for an arguement just a good conversation.

and this is my first post on this forum so i guess nice to meet you all :thumbsup:
The universe did not come from gas and dust. True, the universe did consist entirely of gas and dust in its early stages, but they didn't create the universe themselves. By the way, they still make up for the vast majority of the universe that isn't just empty space...some interesting cosmic design plan God has there.

My reason for not believing in God is simply that there is no evidence for it. I couldn't get myself to believe in God even if I tried. No more than you could close your eyes, say "I believe in unicorns" and really believe it despite the lack of evidence. That idea simply will not go into my brain unless something in my experience convinces my brain that it is true.

If we are trying to explain the complexity we see around us, why evoke God as a hypothesis? God, if such a being exists, must be the most complex thing in the universe if he knows everything and designed it all; seeking to explain the existence of moderate complexity with an infinitely more complex creator gets us nowhere. It doesn't work to help explain the origin of existence either. Where did God come from? If it is possible to say God just created himself, why can't we just say the universe created itself instead and cut out one unnecessary step in the explanation?

If there is a God out there, it is his fault for making a universe that looks so...godless. It would be an extremely trivial matter for him to prove his existence. I provide conclusive evidence of my existence to others every day, and I'm a mere human.

[Oneironaut]

So before you write me off as a heretic, I understand the social and cultural need for unquestionable authority in life.
I don't. Who needs unquestionable authority? It's never worked too well here on earth (Hitler and Stalin anybody?), so I can't imagine it would work much better on a cosmic scale.

We don't need an infinitely powerful dictator of the whole universe, who writes all the rules and expects everybody to abide by them unquestioningly, when we can make our own rules with this democracy thing we invented. We need to take our societies into our own hands and run them according to our own reason and common sense, instead of relinquishing power to an invisible friend we can't even detect. This "higher power" superstition is nonsense and if any semblance of popular rule is going to ever exist, we need to stamp it out and make our own ethics for ourselves.

[afghooey]

If we are trying to explain the complexity we see around us, why evoke God as a hypothesis? God, if such a being exists, must be the most complex thing in the universe if he knows everything and designed it all; seeking to explain the existence of moderate complexity with an infinitely more complex creator gets us nowhere. It doesn't work to help explain the origin of existence either. Where did God come from? If it is possible to say God just created himself, why can't we just say the universe created itself instead and cut out one unnecessary step in the explanation?

I think you've hit on something, here. Personally, my idea of god is the universe. Makes more sense to me that we intelligent beings came out of an intelligent universe, rather than having been deposited into an unintelligent one by some outside entity.

[Hamlet]

That's the catch...'intelligence'. If something exists, like carbon, usually a friggin' lot of it exists. So why would intelligence be exclusive to us? And if we're its pinnacle that would really lean towards the pathetic. Wouldn't it?

But even if the Universe was unintelligent before, and nothing but matter and physics, this one has gained intelligence. --and we're it. ...lol heavy maaan, heavy. Dig those ramifications. Older Universes nurturing a baby universe. We're it's cosmic braincells forming!...hehe Oh I crack myself up sometimes. Sorry about that :)

[graymatter]

I don't. Who needs unquestionable authority? It's never worked too well here on earth (Hitler and Stalin anybody?), so I can't imagine it would work much better on a cosmic scale.

We don't need an infinitely powerful dictator of the whole universe, who writes all the rules and expects everybody to abide by them unquestioningly, when we can make our own rules with this democracy thing we invented. We need to take our societies into our own hands and run them according to our own reason and common sense, instead of relinquishing power to an invisible friend we can't even detect. This "higher power" superstition is nonsense and if any semblance of popular rule is going to ever exist, we need to stamp it out and make our own ethics for ourselves.

I don't need he/her/it, either... but what are we suppose to do, burn all sacred texts, starve the lions and then feed believers to them? I wish we lived in a secular world, ruled by a populace that doesn't tether itself to myths and fables. But the majority of people do believe some variations of them.

[Nochowderforyou]

I think you believers should just mind your own business and let us operate our daily lives the way that we want. Stop trying to change the world and make it 1 dimensional. Not everyone is like you, and not all of us choose to operate under a set of rules and guidelines.

I'm a freemind, a freethinker. I think what I want, I do what I feel is right, and I don't let people walk all over me, telling me I'm wrong.

If you go to church, keep it where it is wanted.

[IamTheWalrus]

Im not trying to push anything on anyone i just wanted an interesting conversation, just because i believe in god does not mean im a fan of organized religion and i definitly dont go to church and the universe is god thing is an interesting point but if you put it that way couldnt you just reverse it?and its the exact same? w.e bit to confusing for me. Basically this whole conversation I just wanted to know what you guys believe in and im finding out im not trying to bash what you guys think and hopefully you guys will respect my belief of god(or a creator).

[Not Enough Herb]

all i know is there is some other power out there. and we will all see it when are time has ended. but that is just the beginning.

later

[afghooey]

That's the catch...'intelligence'. If something exists, like carbon, usually a friggin' lot of it exists. So why would intelligence be exclusive to us? And if we're its pinnacle that would really lean towards the pathetic. Wouldn't it?

But even if the Universe was unintelligent before, and nothing but matter and physics, this one has gained intelligence. --and we're it. ...lol heavy maaan, heavy. Dig those ramifications. Older Universes nurturing a baby universe. We're it's cosmic braincells forming!...hehe Oh I crack myself up sometimes. Sorry about that :)

Now, when I say 'intelligence', I don't necessarily mean the dictionary definition of intelligence -- but our language is pretty limiting, so, for lack of a better word, we'll assume that this intelligence is a defining attribute of humans.

When I say I think that the universe is intelligent, I mean everything in the universe, non-exclusively. Quarks, atoms, molecules, planets, mountains, rocks, rivers, carbon, gasses, light, nuclear energy, etc. etc. etc. No, I'm not trying to anthropomorphise the universe.. more like the other way around, really. I think most people have the misconception that 'intelligence' is what separates humans from this 'dumb' universe that we're living in.

If you take a step back, and look at things objectively, you begin to see that we're not seperate at all. Is our outside environment -- the air we breathe, the gravity that holds us to the earth, the water we drink, the food we consume, the sunlight that shines down on us -- is it any less vital to our existance than the organs and cells inside of our bodies? We weren't brought in to this universe. We came out of it. Therefore, I think it's logical that we ourselves, and our intelligence (if we indeed have any), are an expression of the universe.

In my mind, that gives us two possibilities:

The universe itself is an intelligent entity, just as we are.
Or:
We're really unintelligent, purely mechanical objects in an unintelligent, purely mechanical universe.

In my humble opinion, if the latter is true, we may as well all commit suicide. ;)

[Nochowderforyou]

Im not trying to push anything on anyone i just wanted an interesting conversation, just because i believe in god does not mean im a fan of organized religion and i definitly dont go to church and the universe is god thing is an interesting point but if you put it that way couldnt you just reverse it?and its the exact same? w.e bit to confusing for me. Basically this whole conversation I just wanted to know what you guys believe in and im finding out im not trying to bash what you guys think and hopefully you guys will respect my belief of god(or a creator).

You're right. I should have never said all believers. I just meant the extreme ones. The ones who yell walking down the road with a 15ft tall cross trying to change the world and how we all think.

But I see how you're viewing the universe, and I just misunderstood what you were asking. :rasta:

[Hamlet]

The universe itself is an intelligent entity, just as we are.
Or:
We're really unintelligent, purely mechanical objects in an unintelligent, purely mechanical universe.

In my humble opinion, if the latter is true, we may as well all commit suicide.

I heard a scientist once talking along those lines about the 'illusion of Consciousness'. I have a lot of trouble getting my head around that one. I mean, in a way it could be reasonable I suppose, cause and effect n' such...but its just so damned counterintuitive. Cogito, ergo sum dammit! I exist! And I think I'm going to be stubborn about that point until the day I don't exist.....lol

[graymatter]

I don't know how you'd describe an intelligent universe. I'm sure physicists and astronomers do a good job of discerning random events from organized and related ones.

But isn't intelligence an attribute human beings created to classify just about anything?

[pauljb07]

I believe in God.

True there is no evidence to prove that there is a God to people, but when you truely truely believe that God exists, created the universe, and worship him as it was intended, then there is an evidence that you can feel but you can't explain it. (This is while being completely sober btw lol)


That being said, "religion" is embarassing.

The kinda crap you see on TV and people killing other people in the name of God is what turns people away from the whole idea of Creationism.

God can also be a very loose term, pretty much anything can become a God to you. A pro football player worships the sport, thats his idol/God.

Alot of religious people believe in God, but they just go through the motions of church and don't act like God would want them too. (How would God want you to act? Well that depends on which "God" you are trying to be like.)

If you look through the Bible, there is never a point where Jesus Christ (believed to be the son of God in christianity) forced religion on anyone. Nor did he tell you to kill anyone, although in the Kuran (If your Islamic) it does state to destroy all infidels or people who are not like them, wierd eh? He (Jesus Christ) just accepted them for who they were, ussually average or poor people and showed them kindness and such.



anyway....I'm not forcing anything on anyone, but everyone was saying what they believe so I decided to state mine.

People always get so defensive while talking about all of this....wonder why? :rolleyes:


Oh yeah and on a completely (Random) different note....People picture Jesus as the skinny white guy with a beard.
Jesus was from the Middle East and he was a carpenter, so he was probably brown and pretty built..... Beard...idk?

Thanks for listening everyone.

Some of your views are actually very interesting and I enjoy reading them.:thumbsup:

[mrdevious]

although in the Kuran (Quran or Koran actually) (If your Islamic) it does state to destroy all infidels or people who are not like them


I've never heard about anything like this... Could you give me a source showing me this?

[Eyeball1979]

I agree with Pauljb.. you don't need evidence, when you feel it and believe it - that's enough evidence, when the signs are there and guide your way, and you know inside that God is there helping you through, and giving you know what you know you need and are supposed to go through in life.

And right, people might kill the belief for other people.. like wars, and like people preaching it to you, or making you believe you will go to Hell, etc. I don't believe in Hell myself.. but you don't have to believe in all the crap to still believe in God. I don't go to church either like people might say I should.. but I still believe in God.

Btw.. i'm new here. So hi everyone. :)

[pauljb07]

I've never heard about anything like this... Could you give me a source showing me this?

I really can't, it was one of my islamic friends who was joking with me about that, and said it was in the Quran...sorry I have no evidence, you don't have to believe it.

Thanks for listening! :rasta:

[ReferMadness]

Im not a believer im awaiting evidence that there is a god because im not gonna waste my time on believing in something that isnt even real but if god is real...power to him :rasta:

[mrdevious]

I can't say I understand why people believe in god because they "feel him deep down". There are hallucinogens around the world that can make you feel absolutely anything to no limit, there are people who spend their lives in mental institutions convinced that the voices in their heads are real, there are those who felt deeply and without any doubt, that their prayers to Zeus were being heard and he was with them. The human brain can convince you of anything, to no limit what-so-ever in how real it feels, but the aformentioned conditions are indeed all the result of mental processes. When people tell me "put all your faith in god and he will reveal himself to you", aren't they really saying to me "put all your faith in god until the part of your mind that questions finally goes silent"?

[graymatter]

When people tell me "put all your faith in god and he will reveal himself to you", aren't they really saying to me "put all your faith in god until the part of your mind that questions finally goes silent"?

Well said, still, I suspect the religious response would be something along the lines of what Job went through, questioning and doubting, for example. But in the end wasn't it about faith in the outcome of all things that mattered, the whole greater than the sum sort of thing?