TOPPING - vs - LST

[blizma]

Yo!

On my last post about plant height discussion the following arguement between these two advanced growing methods came up :

dryst says - topping

greenmonster - LST (low stress training)

I would like to disccuse the advantages and disadvantages of both of these methods. This will also help me a litle bit with my research before i start my grow.


All posts will be appretiated


Let the arguement begin :) :rasta:

[yabatab]

Im having to do both with my sativa have not begun training
it yet but toped it twice because of the hieght in my grow
space. If you have the space I say don't do either.

[blizma]

hehe. I dont have the space :)

And im going to grow indicia soon..

--

Thats 1 point for both topping and LST

[blizma]

CURRENT STATS :

LST : 1
yabatab

TOPPING : 1
yabatab

[UnitedParcelSecrets]

I'm a fan of LST. It seems to me you can get more light to more leaves that way.

[blizma]

aaa cool.. so, how do YOU do your LST?


CURRENT STATS :

LST : 2
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets

TOPPING : 1
yabatab

[Pothead4204life]

i agree with UPS...LST is the way to go...its not as stressful (hermies) and if you bend the plant properly you can get colas as big as the main....

[mscaboo]

if you are running a perpetual cycle like i am it is easier just to top and forget about it.

[blizma]

hmmm well whats best to do when you do a normal grow with limited space? Which makes the plants go shortest and widest :):)

CURRENT STATS :

LST : 3
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life

TOPPING : 2
yabatab
mscaboo

[yabatab]

aaa cool.. so, how do YOU do your LST?


CURRENT STATS :

LST : 2
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets

TOPPING : 1
yabatab


Im just going to make holes in my planter/pot and tie
the branches to some soft nylon strings attached to
the holes in the pots. I'll post pics in my CFL grow when
I do. It will be this weekend maybe tonight.

[blizma]

cool :D

How long into Veg are your babies?

[yabatab]

cool :D

How long into Veg are your babies?

Shit I almost forgot im glad i made that grow log I can check
the dates on the posts......LOL, 28 days. They were under a
Hps for the first week then I stuck them in a window for a few
days till i got the CFL's cause the temp in my grow box was to
high. They have only been under CLF's since 7/21.

Im going by height not by days for when I start 12/12.

[MeatRulz]

I am doing one of the smallest grows u can and i am gonna go with topping it seems to me it leaves hight<--:) a lone and concentrates more on the bottom leafs making it bushier. so i think it depends on the grow. but in my case i will be topping.

[blizma]

MeatRulz = im doing the same thing your doing, smallest grow possible.. if possible can u add my msn/icq ?

Also yabatab thanks :D + i always used CFL's aswell :) (add my msn/icq aswell :D )

CURRENT STATS :

LST : 4
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez

TOPPING : 2
yabatab
mscaboo


Aaaa... LST is wining :D

[greenmonster]

if u have two plants, top the one, tie the other down and see which works best for you.

[jamstigator]

I combined topping and LST for the last three plants, and they kicked ass. So, I vote for both. ;)

But as a practical consideration, topping (to produce more main colas) is strain-dependent in regards to what effect it has. Some strains just reallocate the bud mass that would have been on one cola and spread it across several, whereas some plants simply cannot reach their full potential without topping. It just so happens that the strains I have like topping, and react well to it, sooo...

[blizma]

LST : 5
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez
jamstigator

TOPPING : 3
yabatab
mscaboo
jamstigator

[blizma]

I combined topping and LST for the last three plants, and they kicked ass. So, I vote for both. ;)

But as a practical consideration, topping (to produce more main colas) is strain-dependent in regards to what effect it has. Some strains just reallocate the bud mass that would have been on one cola and spread it across several, whereas some plants simply cannot reach their full potential without topping. It just so happens that the strains I have like topping, and react well to it, sooo...

Thanks for sharing you experience and information :)

I might use the technique in my next grow

[blizma]

if u have two plants, top the one, tie the other down and see which works best for you.


So what do you vote for? :D

[greenmonster]

tie it down, be nasty!

[blizma]

heheheh oki :P.
So, which one of these techniques really does keep the plants lowest?

LST : 6
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez
jamstigator
greenmonster

TOPPING : 3
yabatab
mscaboo
jamstigator

[yabatab]

MeatRulz = im doing the same thing your doing, smallest grow possible.. if possible can u add my msn/icq ?

Also yabatab thanks :D + i always used CFL's aswell :) (add my msn/icq aswell :D )

CURRENT STATS :

LST : 4
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez

TOPPING : 2
yabatab
mscaboo


Aaaa... LST is wining :D

I added you to my contacts you'll know who I am yabatab is in my
MSN addy:thumbsup:

[MegaOctane12]

This has been copied and pasted :


Topping the plant means to remove its primary growing shoot. The plant then redirects its energy to the next two closest shoots which become primary shoots. This may be done as many times as the grower desires. Note, however, that the resulting buds will be smaller than if the plant had been left untopped. The real issue becomes "Does the mass of the two new buds exceed the mass of the otherwise untopped cola?" The answer to this question varies from strain to strain, perhaps even, from plant to plant.

When topped, frequently the two central growth tips will stop growing for a period, while the plant directs its energies to repairing the damage central shoot. A collateral effect of topping is that the plant bushes out, that is, all of the lower branches continue to grow when the growth of the central shoots pauses. This can be useful in a propagation technique like SCroG, in which it is desirable for all of the budsites to be on an even plane.

The slowdown in growth may be avoided by pinching,rather than cutting, the growth tip. This does not cause the resulting bushiness in the lower growth, but does cause the two secondary tips to become primary.

How, when and where to top are also matters of ongoing debate. Ultimately, it becomes a personal decision of the grower, based upon his own experiences and goals.

[blizma]

sweet information thanks. this will help newbies that duno wot we r talking about :)

so u vote for topping?

[smokinbass]

Topped will def reduce the size of your biggest cola. since hight is the issue, it may be your only option. LST may need a little more latteral room. (if u bend a plant over will it be in the way of another plant?

What indica strain are u growing??

if it is a short (even for indica) strain like afgan u may want to just force flower a little earlier when the plant is just under half the hight your grow area can deal with.

the slightly shorter veg time may produce a smaller plant with smaller yeild, but with a main cola larger than a topped plant.

but u get through veg+flower in slightle less time which means u star next grow a couple of weeks sooner.... increasing your yeild over the course of the whole year.


But if i had to choose; Top or train.... train.

[slowthestone]

bend'm...then bend'm some more.

[attachment=o79891]

[blizma]

thanks smokinbass for the info + you gave one point to LST.

thanks to you also slowthestone + nice pic + 1 for LST

keep the votes + info coming :)
LST : 8
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez
jamstigator
greenmonster
smokinbass
slowthestone

TOPPING : 3
yabatab
mscaboo
jamstigator

[blizma]

LST (low stress training)

Training has been arround since Jesus grew herb... or at least Id like to think so.

Training is anymethod you use to control the growth of your plant. Topping is probably the most common form of training(for canabis). Topping is high stress training. Cutting the main grow stem off stresses the plant and causes it to redistribute its hormones to other grow tips resulting in the multi cola plants.

This method is low stress training. There is little if any recovery time because you are not damaging the budsites of your plants. When you tie the top grow tip below the rest of the plant the plant has the same reaction as topping... oh shit something is wrong effect... and the axial growth tips are redistributed. The key to LST is to create a horizontal plane of buds so that they all get the same light and grow at the same rate. You end up with a bush of many colas instead of the traditional christmas tree bud plant with one main cola.

There are many ways to LST using steaks, chicken wire screens are common, many other I probably dont know about.

This one is easy though.

First step is to get a large pot the final size you want your pot and put a bunch of screws arround the lip of the pot I used 8 screws. These are the tie points for your training

pic 1

step 2 pic 2

This next step is CRITICAL!!! I cannot stress this enough. This is the countertie. It is used so that the bottom part of your plants stem stays straight and in place. Without a countertie you are likely to uproot your plant because training usually occurs when there about a month or so old and not extremely established.

Its simple just tie a piece of twine from one of the screws arround the bottom of your plant. Make sure that your twine is tied above the first leaf pair so that it doesnt slip all the way down to the bottom of the plant.

step 3 pic 3

Thats simple right? You can see it kinda pulled my plant to one side. I dotn think thats necessary i just got a little bit carried away and tied it real tight.

The next step is to tie the main growth tip down so that the plant will release hormones that cause all the other growth tips to start functioning like the main cola.

I use a simple overhand knot and tie my twine UNDER the highest set of developed leafs. Once again you need to make sure that the knot doesnt slip off of your plant. Then i tie a slip knot arround a screw. I use slip knots so i can just tighten the string as the plant grows. You can retie it everytime but im super lazy and that wouldnt cut it.

pic 4

heres a pic that shows how the stem will bend when you train it. I tie it pretty tight and i havent broken a stem yet but if your worried about that just tie it lose at first and slowly tighten it. The plant will adapt.

pic 5

That plant sure is ugly! lol it has all kinds of mysterious spots dying on it but whatever i got a couple further along that are good so Im not concerned with it....
Speaking of plants that are further along....
This is my second oldest plant that was LST'd about 4-5 days ago. You can see along the main stem that the growth tips are starting to get real developed. I move the leaves away from these growth tips so they get a lot of light and are happy.
They will soon start growing like crazy and you will start to train them to make your plant into a full on bush.

=====================

Yes.. this has been copy and pasted. Thanks to DUBMAN who made this tutorial on planetskunk.

[blizma]

Topping, Pruning and Bending Cannabis Marijuana Plants

Topping, pruning, and bending are all methods marijuana growers use to alter the growth pattern of cannabis......

Pruning Marijuana - Pruning is the removal of unwanted, often dead foliage. Pruning away old yellowing leaves helps to preserve the health of the garden. Never remove healthy leaves. Pruning marijuana is also done to concentrate growth into certain favored areas of the plant. Pruning is done in some cases to prevent the spread of disease. Any removal of foliage or branches will slow growth for a few days while the plant recovers. Try to snip or cut when pruning. Over-pruning leads to plant shock leading to all kinds of problems such as stunted growth and/or death.

Topping Marijuana - Topping a plant refers to cutting off the top shoot(s) of cannabis plants. You can pinch, clip or snip off the tallest shoots or the freshest shoots. Cut the branch stem just below the last fully developed node,. The plant starts developing branches at the remaining nodes. This is a good techniques to keep a plant short and bushy. Or you can develop many top colas instead of just one. Don't top a plant more than twice and never top when it is in the flowering stage.

Bending Marijuana - Carefully pull down the branches of your cannabis plant, or the whole plant, tye them down. You are now forcing them to grow horizontally. Tthe nodes will start producing branches or buds that grow straight up. Bending should be done gradually to avoid pinching or snapping the stem. Use soft hemp string or cloth to secure the branch or stem loosely when tying down to minimize damage to the soft stems. Growth is slowed for awhile as the cannabis plant adjusts to the shock of being bent. This is a good technique to maximize space in a small grow room

[MegaOctane12]

I think it applies to your situation. If you ScroG, topping would be the best option because, generally, plants should be flowered before they get very tall, it means that for the height, you get more colas growing through the screen than if you didn't top. If you don't ScroG but you still want short plants because of height restrictions, LST is the best option.

[blizma]

Thanks for sharing your info MegaOctane12.

So what technique dp u vote for?

[Jdog7000]

No doubtLST is better for most strains.
I have one strain that does well topped and that the Herijuana crosses.
Like OGuana Kush.
I used to top everything.
And I learned the hard way that some strains are not ment to be topped at all.

[blizma]

Hmm.. Thanks Jdog7000.

At the moment most people say LST is best and makes the most yield and shortest plant.

Im thinking, what would happen if you topped a plant and bending it down while still topped :D

Anyone have experience with this?

[postmandave]

in my last grow i lst my plants fron 1 week ald then topped them a week before they went into flower the yeild was exellent hears some pics .anyhow good thread bizma and i go with both methods for scrog and lst if not doing scrog as hight restrictoin can become a prob with some strains .anyhow be safe the postman.

[blizma]

Thanks postmandave. So you would say doing your method kept the plants very low???

LST : 9
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez
jamstigator
greenmonster
smokinbass
slowthestone
postmandave

TOPPING : 4
yabatab
mscaboo
jamstigator
postmandave

[blizma]

aaaa i just found out that you should never top a plant before flowering. Neither do both methods on the same grow on the same plant.. it stresses it to much and dies :S

[smoky mcpot 05]

LSTing for sure. But not the usual way. LSTing by tieing off at the top 3-4 inches and then tieing off at the bottom 6 inches. Creating an 'S' hook type shape. Creates more branching and overal stronger plant than with LSTing at 90 degrees to the ground. Also works much quicker than with the usual LSTing.

[blizma]

Thanks for the info smokey mcpot 05 :) I will consider that in my coming up grow, thanks again :)))

LST : 10
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez
jamstigator
greenmonster
smokinbass
slowthestone
postmandave
smokey mcpot 05

TOPPING : 4
yabatab
mscaboo
jamstigator
postmandave

[smoky mcpot 05]

glad to help my friend. I strongly recommend this method

[yabatab]

Neither do both methods on the same grow on the same plant.. it stresses it to much and dies :S


My plants still alive and kicking I used both methods
but it had plenty of time to recover from topping
before I tied down the two main branches that
grew after topping.

[Opie Yutts]

I think it applies to your situation. If you ScroG, topping would be the best option... If you don't ScroG but you still want short plants because of height restrictions, LST is the best option.

This is a good point.

Also, I have done both, and as far as I can tell they produce about the same results. So, if I need to bend a plant (I SCROG), then I bend it. If I want a plant to bush out more, I cut the top off, and do it perhaps 1 or two more times.

[Opie Yutts]

aaaa i just found out that you should never top a plant before flowering. Neither do both methods on the same grow on the same plant.. it stresses it to much and dies :S

Then you just found out incorrectly, because I have topped and LSTed the same plant many times in the past, sometimes more than once, and they never died. You had better learn to avoid reading one post that gives you the answer you want, and taking that as golden. There are many ways of doing things, and it is best to read many posts on a particular subject, then try some experimenting for yourself. If you don't try stuff yourself you will never no for sure. Just because one weed grower says something, that doesn't mean that it is true.

And don't you mean that you should never top a plant after flowering? When else would you do it, if not before flowering? I can't say for sure because I've never tried it, but it seems like topping after would greatly decrease yield.

[Opie Yutts]

I just had a thought:

Isn't using a screen esentially the same as LST? I mean, I look at blizma's pictures above, of him pulling the branches and stems out away from the main stem. Seems like he's spreading the plant out, instead of having it grow straight up, and I thought, hey, that's just what I'm doing with my screen.

Anyone?

[BlueBear]

One other thing to consider whenever doing either method is that more veg time is needed so that the plant can recover from topping and extreme bending for LST. Also as another person pointed out some strains react best to different things. I have a friend that was topping his plants for a few grows and the plants got real bushy, but when he tried a grow without topping he got a better yield without such a long veg time.
Another technique that I am going to try in a few weeks is super cropping so I can veg out some seeds in order to get them old enough to throw off some mature clones, this is where you take the mane stem and crush it between your fingers until you hear a slight crunch and then turn the plant in a almost 360 twist. I know it sounds cruel, but people have had some pretty good results doing it. You can do this in a few areas along the stem. This will cause the plant to react by pumping extra nutrients threw the stem in order to repair the damaged areas providing more uptake to the plant and while doing this the stem can almost increase its thickness by 50%. The plant also seems to stop it's vertical growth while this repair is taking place and send more nutrients to the branches resulting in a shorter and bushier plant and for me this is what I want as I select a couple mother plants. Like all the different methods, some swear by it, and they combined it with LSTing sometimes.
Hope that this helps some
Adieu

[blizma]

BlueBear that sounds very good idea. But i wont risk it :)
Im sure the stem would thicken up alot, but risky. If the plant is a bit week then i think it would be a failure. Find out for yourself and post us results :)

Opie Yutts I cant answere your question about screening because i have not researched that at all. Would you post a definition for us? Thanks.

Yabatab thanks for the pics update looking good :D good luck and hoping to see more pictures :)
LST : 11
yabatab
UnitedParcelSecrets
Pothead4204life
MeatRulez
jamstigator
greenmonster
smokinbass
slowthestone
postmandave
smokey mcpot 05
BlueBear

TOPPING : 4
yabatab
mscaboo
jamstigator
postmandave

[slowthestone]

How bushy and short do ya want it?

[attachment=o80305]

[smoky mcpot 05]

supercropping is dangerous if you don't already know that strain will supercrop and thrive. Sometimes it works and increases yield but then some strains don't like it at all and never recover. and opie yutts is correct. You will find in this community (not cannabis.com but the whole cannabis growing community) the longer you're around the more you will see statements from 'growing authorites' that totally contradict themselves. Sometimes even by the same people. The only way to truely know is to grow. See for yourself, who is just talking shit. If it sounds to good to be true, it usually is. If it seems plausible than it usually is, the more you understand how plants work. The easier it will be to disern these truths and un-truths. Best of luck my friend. Be careful.

[slowthestone]

Thats sage there mcpot...

Unless two people have the same grow environment...the same nutes...identical feeding schedules...most importantly, the same strain from the same mother...results will always vary.

Learn by paying attention to your grow. I may say such and such worked great...but thats here in my grow environment...what does and can occur in anyone else's environment is up to the grower to determine.

[blizma]

slowthestone - your correct :) It all depends on the grow room + strain. each strain + grow room is different in many criterias.

[Opie Yutts]

Opie Yutts I cant answere your question about screening because i have not researched that at all. Would you post a definition for us? Thanks.


Search scrog.

You put a screen over your plants and let them spread out under it instead of growing straight up. Seems pretty much like LST to me, but easier.

[blizma]

thanks for that piece of information, sounds a good idea aswell.

[blizma]

What about, over night, hanging a piece of long wood over the plants over the 6 hours off period, making the tops bend 90 degrees. then maybe the next day for the 18hours lights on periodthe plants would try to grow around the plank of wood to the light....

[blizma]

No suggestions or experience?

[blizma]

wouldnt this be a greate sticky? :D

[NODROG]

dont get what you mean by sticking a plant of wood over your grow .would there be any point to this when you can either do sog.scrog or lst or even super crop. i dont know if you ar going to try this but it just seems a bit crazy as if the plank of wood was any thicker than 1 inch it would prevent light from reahing the plants and that kindas defeats the purpose does it not . so can you explain a bit more in detail about the method you are proposing.

[NODROG]

aaaa i just found out that you should never top a plant before flowering. Neither do both methods on the same grow on the same plant.. it stresses it to much and dies :S


Dont know were you got this info as you have to top your plants at least a week before flower as you cant do it during flower.and most growers who gro scrog top there plants before they go under the scrog to encourage more stems to fill the whole screen so so if you are doing a scrog most scrog growers will top lst and then under the scrog.

[Bodom Children Of]

I vote for LST.:stoned:

[Specialist]

I think lst is better for prodominently sativa plants cause their main colas get huge and both are good for mostly indica/ruderalis plants. Over topping can lead to shitty yeilds though so becareful, you gotta know the strain and its tendencies. Training is better for people trying to grow a certain strain for the first time.

[Weedywildwoman]

I do both for my grows. I top twice usually, depending on strain, and then lst. I use twine and clothes pins to lst. I also make sure I lst before the plants go into the flower room as they are more supple, if left too late the branches are too hard and can break easily. I begin by bending a little and then over the course of a week or two increase the tightness on the twine until the center of the plant is opened up somewhat. I like this because I get bigger buds, and can look into more of the plant to check for pests, mildew, etc. My plants usually resemble 2-4 foot bushes. Don't over do it though because too much lst and topping can be a pain to keep the branches from breaking under the weight of the buds, though I've had worse problems! haha

For the vote...I would go with topping. The reason is that I feel that I have to top my plants, but lsting a plant is just a bonus! Really, I would like to vote for both...:)

[Haro bmx 420]

Haha well i hate to ruin the tea party but I dont see what the problem is with doing both? my main idea is to Lst the plant so it is lateral and the branches grow more vertically and then top the branches as they come up to make and even crazier bush of branches and leaves :thumbsup: My best intrest and opinion there boys

[Opie Yutts]

There is no problem with doing both. Some varieties are more likely to be stressed than others, but in general most can handle a good haircut or tyeing down, or both. I've spent years trying to figure out which yields the most. I have yet to come up with a conclusion other than this:

They yield about the same.

If you top or FIM, you get more main colas. If you LST you get more secondary colas. If you do nothing, you get even less colas. Whatever you do, it will yield roughly the same if you don't consider any setback from possible stress. I've grown less than 10 varieties to completion so far, but all of them don't seem to mind a little damage. Luckily for us weed is a weed.

How you decide to prune should not depend on what other people do, but what works best for your situation. I wouldn't consider an outdoor grow without at least one round of topping or FIMing. If you can keep your outdoor plants bushy and low they will be less likely to be seen and less likely to break or fall over in the wind, or just from bud weight. If my main goal was donkey dick bud pictures, I would remove everything except maybe 3 or 4 of the healthiest colas, or maybe even do a lollipop grow. If my main goal was spreading the canopy out under a square screen I would do a combination of topping or FIM, and LST. If my main goal was keeping the plant low I might try LST only.

It's been my experience that however you decide to prune, your yield will be roughly the same. IMO having many smaller buds is a huge disadvantage when it comes time to manicure them. If you have a decent yield your hands will soon tire and your brain will soon turn to mush if you didn't already make it do that before picking up the scissors.

[Opie Yutts]

my main idea is to Lst the plant so it is lateral and the branches grow more vertically

This is what LST does:

[Haro bmx 420]

Correct and props on the picture opie, very useful to people trying to figure out the difference :thumbsup: not a bad LST if I may say so myself :rastasmoke: